SimCity: Transit and Roading Networks

[alvinheriadi 2]

Will there be roundabouts like in the NAM?

Yes but they will have really bad public art in the centre, this might be fixed in a mod.

Is the highway in SC5 modular like the RHW, or is it like SC4 without the RHW?

The highway system will not be modular, but will be based on a new "quantum" highway placement system.

What is the minimum intersection angle? 45 deg like CXL, or less?

exactly 23.56 degrees, 24.3429 on hard mode.

Hope that clears things up! If you have any more very specific questions to ask feel free!

Source please.

Btw, what is a new "quantum" highway placement system?

  Edited March 14, 2012 by alvinheriadi  

[Bipin 3,403]

What I'm wondering is if roads will be smoothly curved like this:

http://users.skynet....beersel-140.jpg

...Or "jagged" like in CitiesXL:

http://t1.gstatic.co...5NNWAyLEhGtk-0z

Great work, you've managed to show the worst picture of a road ever taken in CXL, and pass it off as if that's typical.

FYI - Most roads in CXL look nothing like that.

FYI - I own CXL, and I play it on highest settings, even then you'll notice the roads are fairly jagged.

Besides, if you read the post you would realize the two pictures are meant to contrast each other in a juxtaposition showing the extremes of what a jagged road would look like, and an extremely smooth one.

[nadavs 2]

Well, because of the agents, I wonder if it will still be possible to see massive traffic jams.

Sure you will. Since every car on the screen represents a "real" car going somewhere, a big population will generate many cars. Then, just like in real life, when too many cars go through a road that can't fit that many cars, traffic jams will occur.

But unlike real life, you'll be able to fix this problem in less than two years and without politics.

nadavs

[KeanoManu 42]

The pathfinding has to be much better than before for this to work.

I wonder how the game will be able to simulate different types of transport.

Will it be able to simulate person A taking the car from his home to a parking lot close to a train station and then walking to the train and then taking the train to a station close to his work and then walking the last bit? That would be cool.

And also how it will simulate how much time each mode of transport takes. A highway are much faster than regular road, which unfortunately isn't the case in SC4 as they always choose that damn road instead of my beautiful new highway, grr...

[Ocram's Razr 964]

In an early testing stage, cars drove on top of power lines by accident.

[emperordaniel 1,281]

In an early testing stage, cars drove on top of power lines by accident.

Now THAT'S an original transportation idea!

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

In an early testing stage, cars drove on top of power lines by accident.

Now THAT'S an original transportation idea!

Well if they were electric cars, then they would never need to be re-charged!

[woodb3kmaster 342]

Will there be roundabouts like in the NAM?

Yes but they will have really bad public art in the centre, this might be fixed in a mod.

Is the highway in SC5 modular like the RHW, or is it like SC4 without the RHW?

The highway system will not be modular, but will be based on a new "quantum" highway placement system.

What is the minimum intersection angle? 45 deg like CXL, or less?

exactly 23.56 degrees, 24.3429 on hard mode.

Hope that clears things up! If you have any more very specific questions to ask feel free!

Source please.

Btw, what is a new "quantum" highway placement system?

Looks like your sarcasm detector is broken.

On topic, here's a quote from one of my posts on the official SimCity forums: "I'd really like to see subway tubes at different depths and stations that actually take up space underground." IMO the way subways were implemented in SC4 was a bit lacking in realism, what with effectively point-sized stations and tunnels that intersected. Given the enthusiasm the Maxis team members have already shown in making the new SC a proper successor to SC4, I'm optimistic that the new game's subways will be more realistic.

[z1 566]

Will it be able to simulate person A taking the car from his home to a parking lot close to a train station and then walking to the train and then taking the train to a station close to his work and then walking the last bit? That would be cool.

The NAM traffic simulator in SC4 already does this if it's the fastest route.

And also how it will simulate how much time each mode of transport takes. A highway are much faster than regular road, which unfortunately isn't the case in SC4 as they always choose that damn road instead of my beautiful new highway, grr...

Again, this is only the case in the vanilla SC4 traffic simulator. In the NAM traffic simulator, how much time each mode of transport takes is determined by the speed of the travel type, and the fastest one is always chosen. One can assume that the same will be true in the new SC, which uses a better traffic simulator.

I would also think that by now, the "abandoned due to commute time" limitation (which was effectively due to limitations of CPU power) and the "eternal commuter" bug would have been overcome.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I would also think that by now, the "abandoned due to commute time" limitation (which was effectively due to limitations of CPU power) and the "eternal commuter" bug would have been overcome.

I agree that the old "abandoned ..." should go away, because it was indeed a limitation of the simulator to find a path to work. The "eternal commuter" seems to be the result of the same inability to find a definite destination out of the city. This remains a danger unless the idea of going to some particular place in an adjacent city can be satisfied, even if it is several cities away. Because it will be on a big server with lots of paging capability, this may indeed be the case. Imaging doing path finding by chasing around the possible routes in a whole region. It might result in a "no job found" result. If that is the case, the Sim should go on "welfare".

However, is going to work one of the prime movers in the new simulation? Do we even know what the basic parameters are?

  Edited March 15, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[KeanoManu 42]

I would also think that by now, the "abandoned due to commute time" limitation (which was effectively due to limitations of CPU power) and the "eternal commuter" bug would have been overcome.

I agree that the old "abandoned ..." should go away, because it was indeed a limitation of the simulator to find a path to work. The "eternal commuter" seems to be the result of the same inability to find a definite destination out of the city. This remains a danger unless the idea of going to some particular place in an adjacent city can be satisfied, even if it is several cities away. Because it will be on a big server with lots of paging capability, this may indeed be the case. Imaging doing path finding by chasing around the possible routes in a whole region. It might result in a "no job found" result. If that is the case, the Sim should go on "welfare".

However, is going to work one of the prime movers in the new simulation? Do we even know what the basic parameters are?

You've talked about this (server based game) in several threads. What makes you say that?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

You've talked about this (server based game) in several threads. What makes you say that?

Because everything the developers have said that I have read indicates that that's the way it is going to be. They have never said that the deliverable the purchaser gets will be stand-alone.

In order to make a reasonable approach using today's modern architecture it makes sense that the PC will simply be a smart station attached to a server. The size of the server will depend on the sales volume it has to support. You cannot support 16 users on a single game on a PC without a very large communications net termination and a rather large amount of virtual (fast storage) space. Now think about it with several instances (regions) active at the same time.

Fast response has to be a criterion, and that means server software much better than Apache and similar. I see this as a transaction processing network that has to stay up 24/7 which means an UPS, and shadow mode systems. As world-wide acceptance grows, I see several major nodes, all in communication with each other acting as both playing nodes and relays, probably with satellite links. this isn't going to be cheap.

What makes you think it can be anything less??

[nashville nelson 51]

Again, this is only the case in the vanilla SC4 traffic simulator. In the NAM traffic simulator, how much time each mode of transport takes is determined by the speed of the travel type, and the fastest one is always chosen. One can assume that the same will be true in the new SC, which uses a better traffic simulator.

They are using the D* Lite algorithm to calculate the routes. As far as i understand this an agent knows the destination and will calculate the route with the lowest cost. When there is a traffic jam or an other break in the route the algorithm will instantly calculate a new route to the destination. So every Sim got its own TomTom on board

I think the term ´cost´ means whatever the programmers want. Time, distance, gas prices,... , or a mix of all of them.

[KeanoManu 42]

Well... Maybe for multiplayer. But then it would be an subscription cost for those who wants to play multiplayer and that has already been tried with this genre and it faied big time. I doubt the reason for that had so much to do with gameplay issues in Cities XL but more to do with the concept.

Single player shouldn't in any way be server based. But that's off-topic for this thread.

[Paulobergonci 673]

Dear Maxis, we don't want just to build a beautiful city. We want a complex transit system, with all kinds of networs, that's what almost everyone like to do in SC4, plan the streets, highways, subway. Please, please, let us choose what kind of vehicle will be able to drive on a road, i would like to make Bus Corridors, on the highways, here in Brazil, we have one lane just for trucks and buses. These kind of things that we want.

[croxis 150]

The only evidence about anything being on a remote server are saved games. I would love to see citations otherwise.

[Hiramas 4]

I had almost the same feeling when I learned the first details about CXL as I have now.

But somehow I still trust Maxis.

Anyway, the tech I have seen is very promising. The Agent system seems to be a very very solid foundation for the whole simulation.

Based in this, it should be very easy to mod and expand things into the game. If you have seen the "fire" part of the GDC video you have seen the "rules" system.

If you want to have an addition to the game you build the model and add a new agent and new rules for it. Bang.

Back in the CXL forums were a lot of good ideas and the game had a lot of ambition.

The GEMs, the Multi-Lane tool or even a concept of fully modifiable zoning.

If they play their cards right they could build the best sim city of all times.

Let's hope for the best.

  Edited March 15, 2012 by Hiramas  

[Cob92 360]

You've talked about this (server based game) in several threads. What makes you say that?

Because everything the developers have said that I have read indicates that that's the way it is going to be. They have never said that the deliverable the purchaser gets will be stand-alone.

In order to make a reasonable approach using today's modern architecture it makes sense that the PC will simply be a smart station attached to a server. The size of the server will depend on the sales volume it has to support. You cannot support 16 users on a single game on a PC without a very large communications net termination and a rather large amount of virtual (fast storage) space. Now think about it with several instances (regions) active at the same time.

Fast response has to be a criterion, and that means server software much better than Apache and similar. I see this as a transaction processing network that has to stay up 24/7 which means an UPS, and shadow mode systems. As world-wide acceptance grows, I see several major nodes, all in communication with each other acting as both playing nodes and relays, probably with satellite links. this isn't going to be cheap.

What makes you think it can be anything less??

From what I've heard, the multiplayer sounds more like an improved SimCityScape with Spore-like interaction between players. It seems as though the only purpose of the server would be to store multiplayer regions, but the cities themselves would still be handled on the individual PCs. I don't think that what you're envisioning, a region with 16 players all playing and connecting cities in real time, is really feasible. A large and expensive server network would mean subscription fees passed to the consumer (either that or server rental fees like in Battlefield), which would put a lot of people off the game who don't want to plonk down $$$ every month so they can get on their cities every once in a while. This isn't Xbox LIVE where you have legions of FPS players who treat their Halo/CoD as a second job. This is SimCity, a casual game.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

I would also think that by now, the "abandoned due to commute time" limitation (which was effectively due to limitations of CPU power) and the "eternal commuter" bug would have been overcome.

Aww... so no more Pine 'secret subways' in my spread out rural tiles?

Actually the 'abandoned due to commute time' has been one of the biggest pain in the asses of the SC4 game... the only way you can make a large rural tile like this work is to use subways... (disguised as a tree)... totally ridiculous and 'unrealistic' in a rural tile... but it was the only way to 'fool' the game engine into thinking you were making a modern urban city.

[Wiimeiser 452]

And the maximum tolerated commute time is hardcoded, I assume? Because if it wasn't someone would've fixed it by now.

[Cob92 360]

And the maximum tolerated commute time is hardcoded, I assume? Because if it wasn't someone would've fixed it by now.

It has been fixed in the NAM (aka the essential community patch for Rush Hour).

[z1 566]

The "eternal commuter" seems to be the result of the same inability to find a definite destination out of the city. This remains a danger unless the idea of going to some particular place in an adjacent city can be satisfied, even if it is several cities away. Because it will be on a big server with lots of paging capability, this may indeed be the case. Imaging doing path finding by chasing around the possible routes in a whole region. It might result in a "no job found" result. If that is the case, the Sim should go on "welfare".

There's actually a simple algorithm that can be used to prevent this bug; this algorithm would even work with only a slight modification to the current SC4 code. When the traffic simulator's destination finder routes Sims to an adjacent city, it has enough data to know that there are jobs for them in that particular city. The eternal commuter loop happens when the Sims actually cross over into that city, and the traffic simulator in that city decides that the closest jobs are in an adjacent city; this pattern is repeated until the Sims return to their starting city, at which point it repeats over and over.

The solution is straightforward. The game already has specific information about every single Sim who crosses over into another city, and a core of that information (at least wealth level and education status) is retained. All that needs to be added to that core is the direction of the initial city crossing. For example, if the initial crossing were from north to south, "north" would be added to that information structure. From then on, Sims could continue crossing city boundaries as normal, but they would not be permitted to cross any northern boundaries. Furthermore, to prevent problems with staggered adjoining cities, Sims that start their trips at a city boundary (having just crossed over) could not have a destination at the same city boundary that was north of their origin. With these simple constraints, the eternal commuter loop would be impossible. The traveling Sims are still guaranteed employment, as they only enter a city if there are jobs in that particular city. And the load on the Maxis servers is maximally constrained, as pathfinding is an exponential process, and this algorithm keeps it restricted to one city at a time, just as it currently is in SC4.

However, is going to work one of the prime movers in the new simulation?

Yes, although we now know that the Sims will finally be able to go shopping as well.

Do we even know what the basic parameters are?

I haven't seen much specifics, other than that the traffic simulator will use D* Lite pathfinding, as opposed to the modified A* of SC4.

  Edited March 16, 2012 by z1  

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

Yes, although we now know that the Sims will finally be able to go shopping as well.

This is good, we certainly do travel to other places than just work!

Very early on when I first started playing SC4 I would carefully place bus stops by the lovely (maxis) beach or park that I had made, and then wonder why no one ever used the bus stop.

[Mark Waybill 242]

I agree with Craig's sentiment regarding non employment based travel. On weekends Sims should go to the beach or the mall or what have you. Entertainment facilities like skateparks aren't just aura increasing decorations. And the unemployed should be making trouble or lollygagging or searching for jobs. Retired people should be going to flower gardens or doing hobbies like fishing etc. Tourists should be visiting attractions, restaurants, etc. University students should be going to pubs and Kids should be playing running about in fields and camping by streams. The Sims in 4 were workaholic communists in this respect.

What I'd like to see would be for instance tourists driving into a city or getting a train or plane, staying at a hotel and spending dough at cafes, museums, beachside attractions, theme parks etc. I'd like to stroll down a street and watch some out of towners asking people for directions. Stuff like that would be great. But the Sims in 4 were brain dead robots...

[glazert 89]

And the unemployed should be making trouble or lollygagging or searching for jobs. Retired people should be going to flower gardens or doing hobbies like fishing etc. Tourists should be visiting attractions, restaurants, etc. University students should be going to pubs and Kids should be playing running about in fields and camping by streams.

I hope the game doesn't use stereotypes like these. Not everyone in one of these categories behaves the same way - and people perform many roles simultaneously.

[Cob92 360]

And the unemployed should be making trouble or lollygagging or searching for jobs. Retired people should be going to flower gardens or doing hobbies like fishing etc. Tourists should be visiting attractions, restaurants, etc. University students should be going to pubs and Kids should be playing running about in fields and camping by streams.

I hope the game doesn't use stereotypes like these. Not everyone in one of these categories behaves the same way - and people perform many roles simultaneously.

Simulations depend on stereotypes (such as the "Americans love to drive and hate public transportation" stereotype that powers the SC4 traffic simulation). You can't possibly replicate the unique behavior of every individual in the world.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

And the unemployed should be making trouble or lollygagging or searching for jobs. Retired people should be going to flower gardens or doing hobbies like fishing etc. Tourists should be visiting attractions, restaurants, etc. University students should be going to pubs and Kids should be playing running about in fields and camping by streams.

I hope the game doesn't use stereotypes like these. Not everyone in one of these categories behaves the same way - and people perform many roles simultaneously.

Simulations depend on stereotypes (such as the "Americans love to drive and hate public transportation" stereotype that powers the SC4 traffic simulation). You can't possibly replicate the unique behavior of every individual in the world.

Agreed, but we can have more events than just going to the job, and going home from work. Items like museums should charge admission and help to defray the monthly costs, for example. Stadiums should have events and charge admission, etc. If you are going to have a building in the city that is non-residential, not a public building and it is not a monument is should be a cost/profit center with income. Come to think about it, City Hall should charge for Marriage Licenses, Building Permits, etc.

  Edited March 17, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[flowmotion 24]

Simulations depend on stereotypes (such as the "Americans love to drive and hate public transportation" stereotype that powers the SC4 traffic simulation). You can't possibly replicate the unique behavior of every individual in the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it did sound like they were modeling each individual sim for employment purposes (unlike SC4 which did it statistically). So, in theory, the simulation knows the exact age, education level, and perhaps gender of each person living in a building.

If they wanted to model 'individual' behavior, they could have rules such as someone in their twenties has a 50% chance of responding to the local tavern's requests, while someone in their sixties only has a 5% chance. Then, as the neighborhood's population gets older, the tavern's business will decline and eventually it will close and be replaced by a buffet resturant, for example. Likewise you could say that high-education sims have a larger chance of going to a museum on the weekend, and a low chance of going to the Robosaurus event. (If you don't have enough activities, you'd could see a message that exactly XXX sims had nothing to do over the weekend.)

Of course, this all might be too complicated, but it seems like it a natural extension of the 'help wanted' system they demonstrated. You could have a city full of sims which behaved somewhat like real people rather than just saying X% of them went to the zoo.

And it would be neat if things like stadiums caused traffic jams on the weekend as all the sims drove down to the football game - just another dimension to transportation planning.

  Edited March 18, 2012 by flowmotion  

[Mark Waybill 242]

Naturally my examples were based upon broad observations of behaviour. But It'd still be nice to see demographics do what you'd expect of them most of the time. I don't see the necessity of 85 year olds skateboarding through a no skateboarding zone or a 10 year old becoming head Professor at the University, even if in theory it might be within the realm of possibility.

[Catmando 7]

Naturally my examples were based upon broad observations of behaviour. But It'd still be nice to see demographics do what you'd expect of them most of the time. I don't see the necessity of 85 year olds skateboarding through a no skateboarding zone or a 10 year old becoming head Professor at the University, even if in theory it might be within the realm of possibility.

I think it would be ridiculous if a ten-year-old became a professor at a university too. I wouldn't mind for the game to have a few absolutes in this respect. While the outliers produced by the kind of simulation flowmotion suggested would be amusing, they might bother users looking for more realism. Then again, I think flowmotion's suggestion could be an opportunity for Maxis to introduce some of their classic humor into the game: 90% chance the sixty-year-old man relaxes at home, 5% chance he responds to the call from the tavern, and 5% chance he rides a llama through the streets.

  Edited March 18, 2012 by Catmando