Discussion about City Tile Size

[Catchin22 299]

It is fair, and if you don't think it's fair you clearly have not seen enough media to know better. The outlines for the city are there, it takes very little to complete the map in your head, that picture is showing 90-95% of the region area. If you don't believe that take a look at more media.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

I think I was being generous with SC13 tile size with my previous pics. Here's a vid screen grab, which points to two Very Important Things:

1. One "City" Equals One Great Work Tile!

How realistic, a mega city is a mega airport, sounds just like SimCity 2000!! Keep in mind in the video, "cities" was indicated with "Town Name" areas, "build a casino city here" etc. Which means...

2. Maxis Had Intended for The Current "2x2 city" To Be TOWNS!!!

The implications of this... Oh dear where to start... Once upon a time in the dev process the scale was correct! So this is yet another SubPrime Tactic like tilt shift - repackaging a crippled/problematic feature as a positive selling point! Brilliant business planning - conjure up this grand online idea for an offline game, build the engine, then belatedly realize "oops, real scale too power-intensive for engine and server" then "let's sell the towns to them as city I think it'll work" then "great idea we can blame their slow computer for that"

Obviously, this mega problem could be easily rectified - give us an OFFLINE game and let our 2012 computers do the work.

edited: update picture to a more accurate scale based on Q&A pic

  Edited November 1, 2012 by SoftcoreGamer  

[mapboy 106]

This should sum it up.

That image proves nothing because it does not show all boundaries of the city. It obviously continues further at the bottom, and only the top shows a highway and therefore a boundary.

You're wrong, that's close to complete. If you had any sense of visualization you could complete that map in your head by extending the lines. If you've seen enough video and enough pictures then you would know that in that image, that is about 95% of a complete sized city.

I do have a great sense of visualisation, thank you very much. My point is that the only proper boundary line is at the top of the city, over the hills. There is no other indication of where the other boundaries are. Just because there is a cluster of skyscrapers does not mean that is the only part of the city. There are clearly other roads that are radiating off the edge of the image, which means that the boundary is not as close as you might think.

[Catchin22 299]

This should sum it up.

That image proves nothing because it does not show all boundaries of the city. It obviously continues further at the bottom, and only the top shows a highway and therefore a boundary.

You're wrong, that's close to complete. If you had any sense of visualization you could complete that map in your head by extending the lines. If you've seen enough video and enough pictures then you would know that in that image, that is about 95% of a complete sized city.

I do have a great sense of visualisation, thank you very much. My point is that the only proper boundary line is at the top of the city, over the hills. There is no other indication of where the other boundaries are. Just because there is a cluster of skyscrapers does not mean that is the only part of the city. There are clearly other roads that are radiating off the edge of the image, which means that the boundary is not as close as you might think.

Do you often get suckered into marketing ploys? Being in Design / Marketing for over 15 years I have often wondered why it's so easily to fool so many people with so very little effort. I guess the phrase "There's a sucker born every minute" is all too true.

[grugor 60]

There will be differant types of regions and presumable differant tile sizes. Maxis have mentioned already that there are regions you can join that " we like to call friday night sessions" which imo is a region with small(er) tile sizes that you can complete much quicker than the largest tile sized region, so the screenshot above might just be that. The fact it does say Town name suggests that this is the case.

[Frode789 70]

There will be differant types of regions and presumable differant tile sizes. Maxis have mentioned already that there are regions you can join that " we like to call friday night sessions" which imo is a region with small(er) tile sizes that you can complete much quicker than the largest tile sized region, so the screenshot above might just be that. The fact it does say Town name suggests that this is the case.

We can only hope.. Because if the tile sizes are max what is shown in that image, then no way I'm buying this town game.

[grugor 60]

Well we know for a fact that the max is 2k by 2k. What we dont know for sure is how big that is depending on the scale used.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

There will be differant types of regions and presumable differant tile sizes. Maxis have mentioned already that there are regions you can join that " we like to call friday night sessions" which imo is a region with small(er) tile sizes that you can complete much quicker than the largest tile sized region, so the screenshot above might just be that. The fact it does say Town name suggests that this is the case.

In the video, the "Town Name" areas are specifically assigned as City. Go to the video starting at 0:43, and *listen very carefully* at 1:06.

Different types of regions could mean small 3 cities regions versus large 16 cities regions, with varying preset "puzzles" and scenario challenges. There is no different Town tile size. It's been confirmed to be dead fixed at 2x2.

Here's an unfinished Paris from SimCity.cn. Note the pic doesn't cover the FULL size of the CXL city. The square area indicates SC13 2x2 plot, closely reference to stadium size. This basically hints at - the largest SC13 region speculated to have 16 cities, is about the size of a typical CitiesXL CITY. And to think that I was complaining that CXL map was not big enough.

The whole point is, they are selling TOWNs to us as CITIES. And expect us not to notice.

  Edited October 19, 2012 by SoftcoreGamer  

[VeritaScientia 150]

There will be differant types of regions and presumable differant tile sizes. Maxis have mentioned already that there are regions you can join that " we like to call friday night sessions" which imo is a region with small(er) tile sizes that you can complete much quicker than the largest tile sized region, so the screenshot above might just be that. The fact it does say Town name suggests that this is the case.

In the video, the "Town Name" areas are specifically assigned as City. Go to the

starting at 0:43, and *listen very carefully* at 1:06.

Different types of regions could mean small 3 cities regions versus large 16 cities regions, with varying preset "puzzles" and scenario challenges. There is no different Town tile size. It's been confirmed to be dead fixed at 2x2.

Here's an unfinished Paris from SimCity.cn. Note the pic doesn't cover the FULL size of the CXL city. The square area indicates SC13 2x2 plot, closely reference to stadium size. This basically hints at - the largest SC13 region speculated to have 16 cities, is about the size of a typical CitiesXL CITY. And to think that I was complaining that CXL map was not big enough.

The whole point is, they are selling TOWNs to us as CITIES. And expect us not to notice.

I'm starting to get curious, do you understand the concept that compting power has limits, and that SimCity 2013 has much more simulation than Cities XL, and thus the city tiles can't be as big right now?

[Jokurr 175]

There will be differant types of regions and presumable differant tile sizes. Maxis have mentioned already that there are regions you can join that " we like to call friday night sessions" which imo is a region with small(er) tile sizes that you can complete much quicker than the largest tile sized region, so the screenshot above might just be that. The fact it does say Town name suggests that this is the case.

In the video, the "Town Name" areas are specifically assigned as City. Go to the

starting at 0:43, and *listen very carefully* at 1:06.

Different types of regions could mean small 3 cities regions versus large 16 cities regions, with varying preset "puzzles" and scenario challenges. There is no different Town tile size. It's been confirmed to be dead fixed at 2x2.

Here's an unfinished Paris from SimCity.cn. Note the pic doesn't cover the FULL size of the CXL city. The square area indicates SC13 2x2 plot, closely reference to stadium size. This basically hints at - the largest SC13 region speculated to have 16 cities, is about the size of a typical CitiesXL CITY. And to think that I was complaining that CXL map was not big enough.

The whole point is, they are selling TOWNs to us as CITIES. And expect us not to notice.

I'm starting to get curious, do you understand the concept that compting power has limits, and that SimCity 2013 has much more simulation than Cities XL, and thus the city tiles can't be as big right now?

I don't rrally buy the 'computing power' argument for why the tiles are so small. Why can't they offer bigger tiles for those who have a computer than can handle it? In today's world of multicore processing I have a hard time believing this is as much of a constraint that Maxis makes it out to be, Even if we assume that bigger tiles aren't feasible, why could they not set up the regions like they did in SC4 so we can make the next city over a continuation of the previous? I would *much* rather continue my city in the space between cities than build just an airport.

[K-os 30]

Computing power is most definitely not the reason for the limit, as I thought it was before they released the minimum spec PC requirements. Clearly they're targetting a 2005 era PC to be able to the run the game.

And as far as the amazing Glassbox complexity goes, what is the point if it's limited to small tile sizes? So we get the Tropico level detail of each individual Sim, and how they'll take the best route to go to work. No big deal. Again, how hard can it be to plan out transportation for a 2x2 km square? That's IMO what's supposed to be the main draw of SC series.... build up an interesting looking city while efficiently managing traffic and citizen needs... and the bigger it gets the bigger the challenge.

[Frode789 70]

I'd rather they'd tone down the complexity of the glassbox engine tracking (all sims etc etc), if that would mean bigger tiles. Because even though I love the glassbox goodies they are bringing, the game is after all called sim CITY. And we can't make a city with tiles that small, when the lot sizes and everything else is bigger then it was in SC4. You could barely make a so-so "almost city" on medium tile in SC4. (but at least you could make cities next to it, so that it would act like one city in region view.)

  Edited October 19, 2012 by Frode789  

[Catchin22 299]

Was there ANYTHING wrong with SC4 gameplay? No. The fact is we only needed something updated for todays computers with better models and graphics and that was nearly it, anything else ADDED would have been great. Instead the created Glassbox and now we are stuck with a childs game that should have been named SimTown.

Glassbox has a lot of potential but they threw it away with a rushed game aimed towards 12 year olds. I have to suspect that anyone defending this crap is either completely naive, a 12 year old or somebody hired by EA and I wouldn't put it past them hiring anyone to fluff things up considering their lack of ethical code.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I certainly hope that there will be regions with at least 20 city tiles because 10km is the total playable area in Cities XL, which would be 25 city tiles and with 20+ city tiles, there could be 5+ great works sites.

--Ocram

[Jokurr 175]

Was there ANYTHING wrong with SC4 gameplay? No. The fact is we only needed something updated for todays computers with better models and graphics and that was nearly it, anything else ADDED would have been great. Instead the created Glassbox and now we are stuck with a childs game that should have been named SimTown.

Glassbox has a lot of potential but they threw it away with a rushed game aimed towards 12 year olds. I have to suspect that anyone defending this crap is either completely naive, a 12 year old or somebody hired by EA and I wouldn't put it past them hiring anyone to fluff things up considering their lack of ethical code.

Don't be ridiculous. Just because you don't like the game there is no need to attack those that do. Also, if all this new game was only SC4 with updated graphics, I'd be dissappointed.

[flyer2359 92]

Even if we could get 2.5km or 3km maps, that would be better than 2km. I know it's still not big, but at least it's more workable.

It really wouldn't surprise me if they released a DLC pack with bigger maps, even though we should have a decent sized map from the beginning.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Meh, 2x2 km in full 3d? Yeah, Id like to see if even the more modern computers handle anything bigger. Maxis isnt Crytek that makes a game that only the latest Alienware computers can handle.

As for complaining that they are targeting the mainstream, of course they are. Making a game costs millions of dollars, so no one is going to make one that only a handful of people can play or care about. In the end Maxis and EA want to make a profit, because you know....that is what companies are supposed to do.

[Jokurr 175]

Meh, 2x2 km in full 3d? Yeah, Id like to see if even the more modern computers handle anything bigger. Maxis isnt Crytek that makes a game that only the latest Alienware computers can handle.

Graphical rendering is not the bottleneck, it's processing power. Being "full 3D" has nothing to do with it.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Could be me, but processing every angle and corner of every object in 3d does not require any extra processing power? I mean, not just rendering, but having it be actually there?

And than of course turning everything into agents for the simulator itself. Having thousands of agents walk around in your city, I dunno, probably requires more processing power.

Sure, it might be possible for new computers, but no one is going to buy your game if they need a new computer first.

[Jokurr 175]

And than of course turning everything into agents for the simulator itself. Having thousands of agents walk around in your city, I dunno, probably requires more processing power.

Indeed, this is the bottleneck.

Sure, it might be possible for new computers, but no one is going to buy your game if they need a new computer first.

Which is why I propose having different map sizes. If your computer is old, play on a small map. However if you have newer, multicore processor, let us use a bigger map so we can take advantage of that additional power and build the city we really want.

  Edited October 19, 2012 by Jokurr  

[DmainEvent 195]

Graphics has nothing to do with it. It is the fact that they will have to simulate Millions of Sims and Millions of Routes and Millions of Agents. And they calculate millions of paths. Which is really an inefficient way of simulating something. They figured lets just keep it 400,000 agents or whatever and lets not deal with all those millions of calculations. If you ask me it doesn't seem like a whole lot. How many instructions per second can the average CPU handle now-adays? They either have really bad algorithm guys or they got some sneaky marketing plans.

Earlier in this post I described how they could break up there simulation similar to how regions were designed in Sim City 4 if there simulation is indeed that taxing and they simply refuse to let go of all the minor details. Nobody wants to listen however...

[CahosRahneVeloza 385]

I apologize if what I'm about to say will sound rude but...

To be honest I do not care for the glassbox engine at all.

I'm one of those SC4 players who actually use cheat mods so I don't have to bother with the whole city management dribble because what I really want is to build, build build!

I want to build a city as how I want it to look because that's what the game promised me.... that I can build any city I want!

So why should I bother with what every individual virtual citizen would want? For those kinds of SIMs the Matrix Energy Stations is what awaits them...

... If you ask me, instead of focusing on a better simulation of life, et al the glassbox engine, what they should have done for this upcoming SIMCity game was to update SC4's graphics to something like CitiesXL offers, fix the inherent bugs that SC4 has (like the water plop bug), add missing elements like a sewage system and finally offer an online multiplayer service that is optional.

[VeritaScientia 150]

I don't rrally buy the 'computing power' argument for why the tiles are so small. Why can't they offer bigger tiles for those who have a computer than can handle it? In today's world of multicore processing I have a hard time believing this is as much of a constraint that Maxis makes it out to be, Even if we assume that bigger tiles aren't feasible, why could they not set up the regions like they did in SC4 so we can make the next city over a continuation of the previous? I would *much* rather continue my city in the space between cities than build just an airport.

Fair competition is likely the reason why there's the one size, they're wanting to have leaderboards and such. Sure they could have leaderboards for different map sizes, but I think right now let's let them get the game to market and get the groundwork laid.

Maxis is counting on players to develop the economy. Once an economy is established, other things can easily be added, once the economy has been started. Sure, they could stimulate the economy, but that doesn't always work as well as it's expected to.

Think of SimCity as a SimCity, if you play the vanilla game, you can't plop down a high-density zone and expect a skyscraper to grow immediately.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

The new SimCity would end up like a checkerboard if this were to continue. It would be like Toronto with undevelopable land between each 2km by 2km superblock.

Many computers in 2013 can handle much larger map sizes. I do not want to play SimCity to compete with other people. I want to build my city my way.

[VeritaScientia 150]

The new SimCity would end up like a checkerboard if this were to continue. It would be like Toronto with undevelopable land between each 2km by 2km superblock.

Many computers in 2013 can handle much larger map sizes. I do not want to play SimCity to compete with other people. I want to build my city my way.

This is fair

One of the expansion features we can push for is an option to increase the size of cities. Maxis may have to tweak some things to keep the processor strain down.

Supposedly BF3 players asked for a no minimap feature for Hardcore mode, and they got that.

If Maxis still believes in giving the fans what they want, we'll get bigger cities, just likely not until the game has been released and in the wild for a while.

  Edited October 20, 2012 by PTPLauthor  

[grugor 60]

i think the big stumbling block as regards performance is the lighting. buildings, cars and street lights and the fact that each sim walking under those street lights would be illuminated as well. one of the devs talked about this already. Personally i would settle for daylight only instead of a small tile size

[LexusInfernus 908]

Which is why I propose having different map sizes. If your computer is old, play on a small map. However if you have newer, multicore processor, let us use a bigger map so we can take advantage of that additional power and build the city we really want.

With the result that a number of customers can only play a portion of the game or face lag and a crappy game experience? Yeah, thats going to win them customers. 'Hey people, we got this awesome city building simulator, but if you have an old computer, you cant create anything bigger than a small town if you dont want lag'. Now thats great marketing.

Of course, such a thing would have a definite effect on the online part as well, as smaller cities will inevitably loose from the bigger ones. That would give people with faster computers an automatic advantage over people with slower computers. There, multiplayer ruined for the majority of people. Again not a great way to attract consumers.

The obvious answer to that is 'get rid of multiplayer' which is not going to happen, and comes down to demanding that i dunno... the next Call of Duty is set in WW2 again instead of the future or something like that. You either like it and you try the game, or you hate it before you have even played it and leave the game alone. In either case, it makes no sense to complain about such a thing as the developers are not going to change that part anymore.

  Edited October 20, 2012 by LexusInfernus  

[MINIggy03 227]

You keep ignoring many points people have made and continue to fuel negativity while peddling conspiracy nonsense...

1. CitiesXL does not simulate in the depth and detail that the glassbox engine does. It's essentially a 3D SC4.

2. Sims 3 does not simulate a city or even an entire town, it fakes it. The Sims community have discussed this to death.

3. No game. I repeat. No game has ever simulated at the level of the glassbox engine. Ever.

4. SimCity has never been about catering to those with expensive computers or the die hard fan, it has always been an "everyone" game.

5. Having multiple map sizes puts a disadvantage for those who don't have the horsepower to handle larger maps.

6. This conspiracy about "Town name" and Maxis purposely keeping us from having larger maps is hilarious.

7. You should seriously consider moving on to games that actually interest you.

[jacksunny 741]

A lot of people play these games on computers a lot older than 4 years. If this game had to have the absolute newest technology, do you think people would buy it? How many people are going to build a $2000 gaming machine just to play this game, then build another one when the next game comes out? Not very many.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Ill be honest here and say that Im not exactly happy with the small size of the maps. However, I do not want to let that single negative thing get out of context. If the rest of the game is good, or build in such a way that filling up such a map still takes a lot of careful planning and hard work, I probably will forget all about the map size. But since I dont have the game and thus have no idea what the rest of the game is like, this extreme negativity that Ive seen here about the map size might grow bigger and completely out of context in my mind until I cant fairly judge the rest of the game anymore. And than when I actually get to play it, all I will think about is how much it sucks that the map sizes are so small and ruin the game for myself.

Its like dating an incredibly awesome girl who has one slightly annoying flaw, and youll start focusing on that small little flaw until it ruins your relationship. Only its made worse in this case because youre not sure yet if the girl your dating is incredibly awesome (I know, silly example).