Thousands of hours put into custom content and mods...

[jacksunny 741]

If there is an SC5, will anything on the STEX work with it?

Or will everything have to be re-done?

We really don't know anything about the specifications of the new game. We probably won't until it's close to or already released.

But it's pretty much a given that nothing on the STEX that is intended for SC4 will work in the new game. There's a remote chance that grayscale maps could work . . . but that's it. It's a new frontier.

-Tarkus

What about automata, they have to be rendered in 3-D don't they?

[BurroDiablo 222]

If there is an SC5, will anything on the STEX work with it?

Or will everything have to be re-done?

Nothing for SC4 will work in SC5, but as long as BAT'ers have kept their base models in formats that work with 3DsMax, they should be able to export them over to SC5 (hopefully, if it supports mods.)

[Ocram's Razr 964]

A good reference point would be ease of turning the base models into CXL custom content though the exporter only works with 3DsMax 2008.

[packersfan 666]

Here is my take:

We are all excited, but also suffering a little bit from separation anxiety from something we have known and poured our love into for a decade. This is the same kind of reaction everyone had to CitiesXL...obviously not everybody jumped to that game.

I think once SC5 comes out, we are going to buy it and play it and be amazed with the new game it is. Of course it won't have every custom content thing we have right now in SC4, but it will have many other things not even possible in SC4, and really we need to compare SC5 to SC4 vanilla. Of course the developers can't just dump a new game that isn't leaps and bounds ahead of SC4 vanilla, otherwise they will not get our money. SC5 will be a new base point (AND if this developer is smart, they will make the game open for modding and custom content, as open...if not more open *fingers crossed*. They fail to do that, the community will not really fall for the game.

As I said, SC5 will be the new base, the new engine, for all this custom content these creative SimCity fanatics can make. Sure it will be a rough few years being deprived of things that now seem we were never without, but I remember incredible city journals and creations in those early days of limited content and limit tools.

The real shame and the part we are all feeling a little queesy about is losing all our work on a particular region or something...having to learn a new game, starting all over, but I think it will be a fun ride, especially with this community we have here!

[Hellken 1,658]

Here is my take:

We are all excited, but also suffering a little bit from separation anxiety from something we have known and poured our love into for a decade. This is the same kind of reaction everyone had to CitiesXL...obviously not everybody jumped to that game.

I think once SC5 comes out, we are going to buy it and play it and be amazed with the new game it is. Of course it won't have every custom content thing we have right now in SC4, but it will have many other things not even possible in SC4, and really we need to compare SC5 to SC4 vanilla. Of course the developers can't just dump a new game that isn't leaps and bounds ahead of SC4 vanilla, otherwise they will not get our money. SC5 will be a new base point (AND if this developer is smart, they will make the game open for modding and custom content, as open...if not more open *fingers crossed*. They fail to do that, the community will not really fall for the game.

As I said, SC5 will be the new base, the new engine, for all this custom content these creative SimCity fanatics can make. Sure it will be a rough few years being deprived of things that now seem we were never without, but I remember incredible city journals and creations in those early days of limited content and limit tools.

The real shame and the part we are all feeling a little queesy about is losing all our work on a particular region or something...having to learn a new game, starting all over, but I think it will be a fun ride, especially with this community we have here!

There was a plan to make each new Sim City game compatible with the previous game. So in theory, you could be working on the same city/region for more than 20 years. Yes I can remember the time I dropped SC3K for SC4. Programming wise, SC3K was (without a doubt) much more stable than SC4 and SC4 Rush Hour and I never had any problems with it. I love SC4 but I always felt it was too rushed and it showed. I hope Sim City (2013) will have stable programming. Pretty embarassing that the Sim City community came up with a number of crucial mods for some obvious problems that were overlooked.

[Catmando 7]

This may sound controversial, but I think a lot of time that went into customizing this game is wasted time. I think Maxis could have made it worlds easier to add, say, new transportation networks. I don't mean to say the NAM or SAM or RHW or something is useless, but so much time went into making those when the game was not "friendly" toward the new stuff at all: having a dozen puzzle pieces just to build a diagonal street?! It's an improvement on the original game, sure, but at the cost of a lot of effort dodging game limitations. If Maxis has cleaned up their act and made/is going to make the game more custom content friendly, I don't doubt we'll see more custom content available, of a higher quality, and in less time.

EDIT: Just to be clear, by higher quality I mean better fitting into the game. No one doubts the NAM is well done, but it gets back to the issue of actually making it work well with the game.

  Edited March 18, 2012 by Catmando  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, the community has 10 years of rather solid experience in adding things to SC4.

Make no bones about it, some of us have become expert programmers at various levels. It is programming. Programming is making up a list of instructions, and what do you suppose a graphics model actually is?, and some mods really do serious programming work by developing things in the language of the game. If you are a contributor and didn't realize this, pat yourself on the back because you've become a computer professional, will you, nil you.

Now we have a new ball game starting up on the horizon. We don't know enough about it to comment on whether it will need or have custom content, but from the announcement it appears that there are ways of doing this. I truly hope that these ways will be built-in to the game somehow and external tools will not be required. This will lower the learning curve considerably.

I can see where perhaps some modeling system will be needed if you are going to construct props or buildings which may not exist in the game, and want to add them. I hope it will be come common tool like sketchup and nothing so complex as blender. However, it is good exercise for young people with enthusiasm to learn something like the full graphics tools.

So, for those of you who are rarin' to go right now, cool your jets. It will be at least a year before anything is clear. A year may seem long to some, but for me it is but an instant because I count 75 of them. Speculation before the facts is the same as spinning your wheels in a snow drift.

  Edited March 18, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[Tarkus 6,933]

This may sound controversial, but I think a lot of time that went into customizing this game is wasted time. I think Maxis could have made it worlds easier to add, say, new transportation networks. I don't mean to say the NAM or SAM or RHW or something is useless, but so much time went into making those when the game was not "friendly" toward the new stuff at all: having a dozen puzzle pieces just to build a diagonal street?! It's an improvement on the original game, sure, but at the cost of a lot of effort dodging game limitations. If Maxis has cleaned up their act and made/is going to make the game more custom content friendly, I don't doubt we'll see more custom content available, of a higher quality, and in less time.

EDIT: Just to be clear, by higher quality I mean better fitting into the game. No one doubts the NAM is well done, but it gets back to the issue of actually making it work well with the game.

The reason there's all those diag street pieces is flexibility. We could have just made one small one and just had the user plop it repeatedly--those extra pieces are basically an attempt to make one part less unwieldy (but it means there's more pieces to sort through). And you can build them through draggable means as well (though there's limitations inherent there).

Given that we're still playing the game 9 years later, I don't think it's a waste, and I think it's probably a large part of the reason SC4 is still alive today. NAM releases are always a big event in the community.

Yes, there's a lot of stuff that was a bit unwieldy to implement on our end. If we could have simply added new INRULs and RUL1 instances to accommodate them, it would have saved us hundreds of thousands of lines of RUL2 code, and we wouldn't have to worry about writing adjacency stability instances. A lot of those puzzle pieces out there exist because there's not feasible ways to implement some things in a draggable manner--some are holdovers from the pre-draggable era (e.g. Road/OWR/AVE viaducts), but others either can't be built that way (e.g. Tram-in-Avenue, some wide-radius/fractional angle things), or they'd completely gum up the works if they were implemented as draggable content (I maintain that the Road Turning Lanes Plugin, while perhaps "convenient", was short-sighted from the developmental side, and it's pretty much the reason it took 4 years before you could have triple-tile NWM networks). But the fact is, we did it and we're still doing it. We do have to think obsessively about software design, too . . . we have some people saying stuff's difficult to navigate while simultaneously requesting loads of new stuff that'll make things even more difficult for them to navigate. Trying to satisfy people making contradictory requests is really a mindscrew, but I think we've done a pretty decent job given the parameters within which we have been working.

I don't think that in 2003, EA/Maxis really anticipated some of the things we would try to do--and successfully accomplish in some manner--with SC4. But now that they've seen how the game looks many years later, still thriving, and they've been watching the forums and development quietly for many years, I'd imagine they have a better idea not only of what their userbase wants, but what its more enterprising members are capable of doing to it.

-Tarkus

[LivingInThePast 364]

I imagine that many of the "best" custom content probably still has the original 3D models somewhere out there (you all DO keep backups, right?) that can be ported.

But DLC, well, that's a potential problem. I suppose it could work if the DLC was completely different than the mods. For example, DLC can include scenario packs while mods focus on building.

[TheRealDeadaim 38]

It will be impossible for Maxis to create the scope of buildings and mods than the SC4 community have, they simply don't have the time or resources and it's unrealistic to expect them to do so. What I am expecting however is high quality work like they have done with previous games, and I pray the game will be open for modding. This is the one issue I'm very worried about, EA over the last 1-2 years have got a very bad reputation to keeping modding inhouse and using it as a cash cow. I hope Maxis can convince EA to behave differently with SC5.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

No question it is a new ball game. Much of the existing DLC will be superseded by the new platform. In fact, I expect none of the present stuff will work without a lot of work by the community, and it may not be possible to have it in any near time frame.

Everyone gets a new learning curve. With luck, it will be well documented.

[City Planner 121]

I hope Maxis can convince EA to behave differently with SC5.

You do understand that Maxis out to make money too and keep employeed, and doing DLC be that new scenarios, adding new features to the game or building packs done by them instead of modders are in Maxis's best interest.

[Jasoncw 11,940]

Just to clear it up, it's not possible for existing BATs to be brought into the new game. Even if the BATers still have the original models (which I'm guessing most do), the models aren't suited for a real time rendering environment. There are too many polygons, too big of textures, etc.

All in all, I expect buildings for the new game to take longer to make, because for SC4 you could do everything quick and dirty, while with the new game all the modeling will have to be really neat and efficient. One of the benefits though, is there won't be any preview renders, and for me personally, preview renders is what slows down my workflow the most, not actually working on the BAT.

I also think modding for the new SC will take off a lot faster than it did for SC4, because we have all of the institutional framework already in place... existing teams and well networked knowledgeable people. I think the transition will be hard for some people but I think as a whole it will be fresh and exciting.

[bixel 1,224]

Basically: What Jasoncw said... I have created a HK Tower specifically for Cities XL and it was very difficult on what kinds of detail could be included. Just from my experience working on the model I will say it is going to be hard. As some of you know HK architecture seems to have a lot of extras, extra roof junk, extra ac units (everywhere), extra pipes and other vents and things. And on top of that HK's wonderful habit of making everything and extruded lego piece. While western buildings are almost totally flat or curved, HK building are a jumble of jenga style boxes and rectangles that seriously add a tun of polys to the model.

this is the tower I made for cities xl, and even after shedding all kinds of extra extrusions and doing texture tricks (the ac units are an image not an object).. it looks flat compared to my other HK creations and I was still 500 faces over the 8000 face count budget I was supposed to adhere to...

On top of that, I haven't even modeled the base lobby and facility structures...

  Edited March 20, 2012 by bixel  

[TheRealDeadaim 38]

I hope Maxis can convince EA to behave differently with SC5.

You do understand that Maxis out to make money too and keep employeed, and doing DLC be that new scenarios, adding new features to the game or building packs done by them instead of modders are in Maxis's best interest.

No I'm just thick. Of course I realise that, you don't need DLC to make games profitable.

http://www.reddit.com/search?q=ea

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

When the rules for contributing DLC to the repositories come out, be prepared for the restrictions. They've already said somewhere that in addition to the finished building you will need two "under construction" views, all 3D. Since there is only one 3D render you won't have to worry about views from different sides.

In addition to the main image, you will probably have to supply the Glassbox rules, and a lot or several to layout this building. Somehow, I have a feeling that ploppables will be restricted to civic stuff. Everything else grows. One of the rules is how near another copy of the building can be.

[City Planner 121]

I hope Maxis can convince EA to behave differently with SC5.

You do understand that Maxis out to make money too and keep employeed, and doing DLC be that new scenarios, adding new features to the game or building packs done by them instead of modders are in Maxis's best interest.

No I'm just thick. Of course I realise that, you don't need DLC to make games profitable.

http://www.reddit.com/search?q=ea

No, you don't "need" DLC to make game profitable, but business's are not in it for charity, they are in it to make AS MUCH money as they possibly can, so if DLC makes them another 25M, then they would rather make the DLC than to have modders make it and not get any cut of that pie.

Hoping that Maxis will convince EA to do something that doesn't maximize their own profits is like asking a stone to bleed blood.

[City Planner 121]

I hope Maxis can convince EA to behave differently with SC5.

You do understand that Maxis out to make money too and keep employeed, and doing DLC be that new scenarios, adding new features to the game or building packs done by them instead of modders are in Maxis's best interest.

No I'm just thick. Of course I realise that, you don't need DLC to make games profitable.

http://www.reddit.com/search?q=ea

No, you don't "need" DLC to make game profitable, but business's are not in it for charity, they are in it to make AS MUCH money as they possibly can, so if DLC makes them another 25M, then they would rather make the DLC than to have modders make it and not get any cut of that pie.

Hoping that Maxis will convince EA to do something that doesn't maximize their own profits is like asking a stone to bleed blood.

For some reason there are quite a lot of gamers that think that Maxis is not out to make as much profit as they can, and for some odd reason think that Maxis is on the side of the gamer, let's face reality here, Maxis is just like EA, they are out to make as much money and show as much profitability as they possibly can, they need to to stay in business even if they are under the EA brand and or owned by EA.

[Asheroo 53]

I hope Maxis can convince EA to behave differently with SC5.

You do understand that Maxis out to make money too and keep employeed, and doing DLC be that new scenarios, adding new features to the game or building packs done by them instead of modders are in Maxis's best interest.

No I'm just thick. Of course I realise that, you don't need DLC to make games profitable.

http://www.reddit.com/search?q=ea

No, you don't "need" DLC to make game profitable, but business's are not in it for charity, they are in it to make AS MUCH money as they possibly can, so if DLC makes them another 25M, then they would rather make the DLC than to have modders make it and not get any cut of that pie.

Hoping that Maxis will convince EA to do something that doesn't maximize their own profits is like asking a stone to bleed blood.

For some reason there are quite a lot of gamers that think that Maxis is not out to make as much profit as they can, and for some odd reason think that Maxis is on the side of the gamer, let's face reality here, Maxis is just like EA, they are out to make as much money and show as much profitability as they possibly can, they need to to stay in business even if they are under the EA brand and or owned by EA.

Every company needs to make money to stay in business, but customer care and product quality is another thing and Maxis has certainly delivered. The last PC Sim City Maxis did was Sim City 4, enough said.

And I think you missed this post here about Maxis in regards to modding in Sim City - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/08/back-from-simulation-city-inside-maxis-glass-box/

We’re huge fans of our modding comunity. If you look at how Sim City 4 is still relveant today, it’s mostly because of the mods. We’ve designed things to be modable, and We’re using the same patching system from Sim City 3000 and 4. Glass Box is built to be modable.

Now please, stop the large amount of skepticism and fear.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Just to clear it up, it's not possible for existing BATs to be brought into the new game. Even if the BATers still have the original models (which I'm guessing most do), the models aren't suited for a real time rendering environment. There are too many polygons, too big of textures, etc.

All in all, I expect buildings for the new game to take longer to make, because for SC4 you could do everything quick and dirty, while with the new game all the modeling will have to be really neat and efficient. One of the benefits though, is there won't be any preview renders, and for me personally, preview renders is what slows down my workflow the most, not actually working on the BAT.

I also think modding for the new SC will take off a lot faster than it did for SC4, because we have all of the institutional framework already in place... existing teams and well networked knowledgeable people. I think the transition will be hard for some people but I think as a whole it will be fresh and exciting.

You mean they will be able to bring them into the new game, it will just take more work to optimize the models Although it would probably be faster just to start from scratch As long as people know the basics of low poly modelling and texturing (which I'm sure the vast majority of the people in the larger BAT groups do), most should survive the transition. You'll probably find yourselves spending more time UV mapping and in Photoshop when BATing for SC5 than with SC4 which may be a little daunting to those relatively new to 3D modelling as in SC4, but SC5 modding was always going to be less accessible and more technical than SC4. Still, full 3D will be rewarding for those with the knowledge and/or aptitude to learn the skills needed in order to make it work... and a few good tutorials to help those who'd like to start never hurts.

[City Planner 121]

Every company needs to make money to stay in business, but customer care and product quality is another thing and Maxis has certainly delivered. The last PC Sim City Maxis did was Sim City 4, enough said.

And I think you missed this post here about Maxis in regards to modding in Sim City - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/08/back-from-simulation-city-inside-maxis-glass-box/

When asked about mods, they were just a little cagey, and couldn’t reveal any details but said:

We’re huge fans of our modding comunity. If you look at how Sim City 4 is still relveant today, it’s mostly because of the mods. We’ve designed things to be modable, and We’re using the same patching system from Sim City 3000 and 4. Glass Box is built to be modable.

Unfortunately, I didn't miss that article, the article that this quote came from does little to fully explain how far gamers will be able to mod the game, whether it means we'll be able to change some xml files to change the rules in the game or if it will be moddable to the extent that SC4 has become modable.

We'll be waiting with baited breath to get more information on this from Lucy or somebody at Maxis over the next year. Although I think that not too many details will be put out as it's sure to peeve off some of the SC4 gamers and please others, so like many games before it, give them generalizations and make them wait for the full product to maximize profits.

I think we must also remember that while Maxis has brains beyond belief, and is a great money making division, and has made some enjoyable games in recent times, it's really not the same Maxis that was 10 years ago working on Simcity 4. Again, I think they are full of creativity, great money making potential, but not the same Maxis brainbox that once was, so their whole approach to SC13 will likely be a whole lot different product than what many of us have envisioned over the past 10 years for a SC5.

Without full knowledge of their new engine, I'd have to guess that it's biggest asset will be the new data driven engine, in that it will allow them to extend the game as hardware improves as well, which will be a good thing (as the first look videos still make me feel like we'll be building Santa Monica, instead of Los Angeles or Huntsville instead of Dallas, or Yonkers instead of New York in scope and size), and I hope like many others that it means also that there will be great modability for the users to use.

Best to wait and see instead of getting our panties in a bunch, it's going to be a long Long year.

  Edited March 21, 2012 by City Planner  

[Asheroo 53]

Ah City Planner, you seem to be full of skepticism and bad assumptions. Yes, they are a company, but as I said, have shown a great interest in quality.

When info like I linked above comes out from Maxis, just read it and take it in. It clearly states they have designed things and the engine to be modable and are using the same patching system as SC3000 and SC4. Lets just take that in without any assumptions, negative or positive.

Everyone should forget about Monte Cristo and CXL, they are completely different (way too many seem to keep referring back to MC and CXL and some to SCS, forgetting that Maxis had no involvement whatsoever with those). And they have stated in their preview that they still have key people who worked on SC4 in the development of Sim City. Honestly, sometimes the reason why companies can be so quiet/ignorant is because of the disbelief of their customers. There are great companies out there that deserve trust from their customers, and Maxis is one of them. You possibly can't love SC4/SC3000 and not have much trust in Maxis, unless you're full of negativity and skepticism. But fair enough though if that's your approach.

[TheRealDeadaim 38]

I hope Maxis can convince EA to behave differently with SC5.

You do understand that Maxis out to make money too and keep employeed, and doing DLC be that new scenarios, adding new features to the game or building packs done by them instead of modders are in Maxis's best interest.

No I'm just thick. Of course I realise that, you don't need DLC to make games profitable.

http://www.reddit.com/search?q=ea

No, you don't "need" DLC to make game profitable, but business's are not in it for charity, they are in it to make AS MUCH money as they possibly can, so if DLC makes them another 25M, then they would rather make the DLC than to have modders make it and not get any cut of that pie.

Hoping that Maxis will convince EA to do something that doesn't maximize their own profits is like asking a stone to bleed blood.

For some reason there are quite a lot of gamers that think that Maxis is not out to make as much profit as they can, and for some odd reason think that Maxis is on the side of the gamer, let's face reality here, Maxis is just like EA, they are out to make as much money and show as much profitability as they possibly can, they need to to stay in business even if they are under the EA brand and or owned by EA.

That's not how the gaming industry works, as the Dev team Maxis will be receiving a fixed fee for developing the game from the publisher (EA). Dev teams normally receive a bonus relating to the quality of teh game not the quantity that is sold (for instance another favourite game of mine, Fallout New Vegas was developed by Obsedian and published by Bethesda. Obsedian received a fixed fee for the game as well as a bonus if the game achieved 85/100 on metacritic. The game sold well but only achieved 84 on metacritic - obsedian have since had financial difficulty)

I'm not against price implemented DLC in games, I tend to buy them for other games I play (Fallout, Elder Srolls, Total War) but all those games also allow user generated content. EA have been graduating towards not allowing this, there has also been disgust regarding EA and their attitude to gamers, they use DLC as cash cows - they aren't content created after the vanilla version of the game has been finished. But have been deliberately omitted from the vanilla game to sell to gamers at a later date.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

DLC or custom content to give it its real name is something that we are far too premature in discussing. We have no idea what the needs of the player will be until after the game hits the street. I am sure that many of us, used to the deficiencies in SC4, take a rather dim view of any game product.

Howsomever, did anyone consider that the Maxis crew have our ten years of experience, needs and wants to tap as a source for things that should (eventually) be included in the new game? I hope no one thinks those folks who are working to sell us a new product are stupid. Their continued livelihood depends on this product being a resounding success from the get go. Not only with us, but also with the new gamer market.

If there is a mass rejection here at Simtropolis, which while having few really active members seems to be overflowing the server with guests lately, they will have an uphill battle.

And yes, they are entitled to make as much margin on us as the traffic will bear. This is a business they are running and not a charity. I do believe, however, that they have probably squeezed as much juice out of SC4 as can be expected after the release of the new game. It might just possibly be time for it to become abandonware.

[Epilef 57]

For everything that was said so far, I hope the game comes with AT LEAST the same features that SC4.

But I'm prepared for a possible disappointment.

I'm thinking that the ability to mod will be very limited, with content controlled by the EA.

Do not want to just add buildings. I want mods that can really change the gameplay.

I would like to see a Creation Kit (like Skyrim) for Simcity ... but the company is very VERY different, unfortunately.

[City Planner 121]

For everything that was said so far, I hope the game comes with AT LEAST the same features that SC4.

But I'm prepared for a possible disappointment.

I'm thinking that the ability to mod will be very limited, with content controlled by the EA.

Do not want to just add buildings. I want mods that can really change the gameplay.

I would like to see a Creation Kit (like Skyrim) for Simcity ... but the company is very VERY different, unfortunately.

I agree with you. I think what is modable will be limited and controlled by EA. Maxis may very well say to their bosses at EA that we want to offer X,Y,Z and 1,2,3, that the users can mod, and EA will have their bean counters look at it, study it, think about it, and come back with, No, let's let them mod Y, 1 and 3, let's keep X,Z, and 2 to be used internally through DLC, expansions or sequels.

I'm going to reserve my school girl glee for when the product hits the shelves and it turns out to be a great game with great modability. Until then I see no reason to get all bubbly and happy about the title since we really know so very little overall. This will save disappointment in the end, something that I usually like to avoid if possible.

I can already see in peoples writings not only here but on other forums thinking that EA/Maxis might use their ideas and that makes them happy, however there is no indication that Maxis will use anybody's ideas or deviate from their existing plan for the game. Wish lists I suppose serve some sort of purpose but highly unlikely that EA/Maxis will use anything from them unless of course they had already had that idea planned in the first place.

Yeah, thanks but I'll stay calm and wait to see what actually comes out of Maxis's doors with regards to what we will be allowed to mod and what we can't. I think it likely that the modders in this community will find ways around limitations that they impose anyway since we do have some brilliant people around here, but I too think it will be limited in scope of what they openly allow for modding the game. As I said, time will tell. We all need to just wait and see.

If anybody wants to get all bubbly happy and possibly get crushed by the final product, that's there right, we've seen people do it for both CXL and SCS, one of which IS an EA product regardless if Maxis was involved with it or not (not in this case).

[LivingInThePast 364]

There was a plan to make each new Sim City game compatible with the previous game. So in theory, you could be working on the same city/region for more than 20 years. Yes I can remember the time I dropped SC3K for SC4. Programming wise, SC3K was (without a doubt) much more stable than SC4 and SC4 Rush Hour and I never had any problems with it. I love SC4 but I always felt it was too rushed and it showed. I hope Sim City (2013) will have stable programming. Pretty embarassing that the Sim City community came up with a number of crucial mods for some obvious problems that were overlooked.

There is evidence that it wasn't supposed to be dropped, like having ALL the SC3K ordinances in there (although they were unfinished) and other general unfinished spots.