Deadly Riots Rock London

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

When they were rioting in the Arab world, we called it a victory for democracy. When they rioted in France in 1789, which ended in the French revolution, the history books call it one of the most important events throughout our modern history. In those cases, the military and the state were the “bad guys”. How come they’re not now?

Riots are not always bad. Riots are usually a sign that peaceful means don’t work.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s horrible that civilians died in the Britain riots. I also think the rioters have turned their rage the wrong way. Always kick upwards, aim for the ones in power. If they did THAT, they’d show the politicians they were serious. The people should never be afraid of the government, the government should be afraid of the people. That’s the strength of a riot: It shows that the politicians still have something to fear from the people. That’s a good thing, the politicians should never sit too comfortably.

I believe one should always fight with peaceful means, where this is possible. I believe this is possible in most cases, in a democratic country. But sometimes… Okay, I’ll not go into an analysis of British politics and “what would Marx do”, I’ll just end with this:

The government and the wealthy rob you of your money every day. Yet you do nothing. But when your own people start acting the way your “superiors” have done since the beginning of time, you start screaming for police and military. You ask the very system you should be fighting to protect you. Ironic.

When the politicians took money from the poor to “save the economy” and the next day decreased the tax for the rich, why weren’t you ALL out in the streets? When they stole from the students and the economy was crashing while the bosses of the major companies gave themselves bonuses… Why weren’t you shouting for the police and the military then? Explained in a childish way: This is about the haves vs. the have-nots. And trust me, the haves are the bad guys.

This Socialistic diatribe shows a complete lack of understanding of what actually happened in England during these riots. They were not populist (2000 arrested so far out of a population of some 62,000,000) they were not even popular amongst the population. They were not all carried out by the disposessed poor (one was a graffic designer, another was a ballerina and many were employed). They were not about the shooting of a armed drug dealer (wether the gun was real or not is irrelevant). They were some gangs who got together to attack the Police and a load of greedy hangers-on who care nothing about others, only about themselves and what they could take from others.

You ask "why weren't we all out on the streets" the answer is because many of us think the government is right. The government hasn't stole from the students, it just stopped giving them handouts and is teaching them fiscal responsability of giving them loans to pay back when they leave uni. and earn more than £21,000. A sum which some of the population will never earn, ever!. As for your attack of the rich, you don't make poor people rich by making rich people poor. If the government taxes the rich too highly they will leave the country taking their money and jobs for others with them. Something the socialists never understood and why comunism never succeeded. The best thing about Karl Marx is that he is dead and buried (in Hackney, London) and so are his ideas along with him.

Now we have a bunch of wishy-washy, bleeding-heart, do-gooding liberals saying that the sentances are too severe.

  Edited August 17, 2011 by Merlin of Flyote  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I thought this was a great show about Revolutionary Era Paris

filthy cities paris

Or you could just read Les Miserables, watch the movie, or go see the Broadway Show. If you are interested in arbitrary abuse of power in monarchist France you could also read The Hunchback of Notre Dame. In both cases the novel is more moving than the motion pictures.

Read both of those a long time ago..

Yes, but did you get anything out of them?

[chicah 20]

@Merlin of Flyote:

This conservative diatribe shows a complete lack of understanding of my post. First of all, I never claimed the rioters were "popular". I actually claimed the complete opposite. I claimed you all hate them and are calling for the state to come save you, when your government got you into this mess in the first place.

And for the rest of your post: Obviously you thought calling me socialistic was an insult to me, which is it not. In any way. Secondly: You claim these rioters are merely evil vandals who just want to destroy everything. Like I mentioned in an earlier post: It is not a coincidence that it happened there, at this particular time. Riots are usually a sign of a unhealthy society, which is also the case now. You claim the politicians do not "steal", they "teach fiscal responsibility". Oh, really? What exactly are they preaching? "It's okay for you students to live below the limit of starvation, it teaches you important values. That business owner guy with three yatches and a two-level swimming pool? Oh, no, he doesn't need to learn any lessons, he's already learnt how to exploit those poorer than you." Quite the "lesson on economy".

As for your attack of the rich, you don't make poor people rich by making rich people poor.

Oh, reallly? You see, I think you DO. It is a sure thing that you can make rich people richer by making poor people poorer, then it must surely also be the other way around?

To put it simple: Tens of thousands of Somali children starve to death while we throw tonnes of food every week. A vast part of our global population are homeless. Yet, people in this part of the world own luxury properties and have several houses. We spend more money to research viagra than AIDS medicine.

What does this tell us? It tells us we have all the means to change. We just don't want to. We are not willing to give up anything for others to get it better. Capitalism tells us it's okay, we deserve it. We deserve to reap the fruits of someone else's work. This is how our economical system works. Our bosses get rich because we work. Our government gets "rich" because we work. The funder of the Norwegian store Rimi, a cheap grocery store, has a vast fortune. Your regular Rimi-employee need to work 3000 years to get as rich as he is. In other words, he gets rich off their work, and they can't catch up no matter how much they think they can - because they work hard. It's a myth that working hard is worth it, in this society take what you can.

In essence, this is what the rioters are doing. They feel so let down by the society they honestly don't care what is "mine" and "yours" anymore. They take what they want. Which is bad, yes, but in reality it's what we do every day. Humankind. Robbers steal the food for the starving refugees in Africa and sell them to warlords. We let other people work until they pass out to produce the clothes we wear. This is how our society works, because we chose greed. And now we're paying for it.

Put it like this: This is a political act whether the rioters intend for it to be or not. Society put it that way. Lenin said: "Bread to the people." And the people revolted (unfortunately, what they got wasn't much better). It's that simple. Feel unfairly treated, you try to revolt in any way you can. The purpose might be to piss off the general population, as in this case, because this only fuels your feeling of alienation.

I just want to add that there's never been "true" socialism. If it's something you push down on people, it's not socialism. Socialism is about more power to the PEOPLE, not an elite. Lenin was an elitist and thus never a true socialist, but at least some of his ideas/principles weren't too bad. And don't get me STARTED on Stalin. I know no one who hates him more than socialists. He was a psychopathic maniac, who "used" the system to get as much power as possible and called it socialism, but what he did was to take more power AWAY from the people and give more to himself. Which is the complete opposite of socialism, and could rather be called some warped form of fascism. It doesn't matter which ideology you claim to have as long as you just seek power for yourself and the people are suffering. That's no ideology but greed.

Now we have a bunch of wishy-washy, bleeding-heart, do-gooding liberals saying that the sentances are too severe.

Yes, sure, punish them so harshly they'll ALWAYS think the society hates them, which will only fuel their hatred and rage. Sounds like a perfect plan. And a lot of the sentences ARE too severe, like this: England riots: pair jailed for four years for using Facebook to incite disorder FOUR YEARS. In this country, raping or beating up someone would give you LESS (not that that is a good thing, but you catch my drift).

[Jelendria 3]

1. Stop fighting like little 12-year-olds. Neither of you make yourselves seem better by doing so.

2. It's impossible to make poor people rich by making rich people poor because there would not be enough wealth to redistribute.

3. It's possible to bring poor people out of poverty by redistributing an amount of wealth from the wealthy that is deemed acceptable by them.

4. If a government takes an unacceptably high amount of wealth from the wealthy (especially the self-made-men), then they will leave. Have any of you heard of "voting with your feet"?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Some interesting diatribes, but all mere puffing. There is no way out of poverty and the welfare cycle except by pulling on your own bootstraps. Sitting like a puppy crying in its own mess doesn't solve anything, and just makes you look stupider than you are. The only way out is by education, and those who need to be educated often refuse or are to lazy to try.

Perhaps the elitest school system in the U.K. needs to be overhauled. However, there is a tradition of centuries to overcome in that area. The government is a product of that system and is thoroughly embedded in its ideas, so it will be indeed a tough row to hoe. I doubt that the Labour Party is any different, so where does that leave you?

People heaps are obsolete. All that happens is that they attract heaps of poor people to neighborhoods you wouldn't consider living in. Call them what you like, they are ghettos. Poor overcrowded Europe. There is nothing anyone can do for it. They've overspent their credit cards and now have to tighten a belt on people whose backbones are already showing in front. The whole thing is going down into some sort of fiscal oblivion, and I suspect it will take the rest of us with it.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

CHICAH

Just to point out it was our previous supposedly socialist Labour government that got us into this mess.

And for the rest of your post: Obviously you thought calling me socialistic was an insult to me, which is it not. In any way.

Not my intention, just pointing out the truth.

(Chicah)Secondly: You claim these rioters are merely evil vandals who just want to destroy everything. Like I mentioned in an earlier post: It is not a coincidence that it happened there, at this particular time. Riots are usually a sign of a unhealthy society, which is also the case now.

They are just criminals who deserve to be punished.

Nobody in Britain lives below the limit of starvation. The New system requires students to pay back the cost of their student loan when the get a job that pays above £21,000. Why should other people (Postman, Bus Driver, Shop Worker etc.) pay for their university education when they will never earn that level of earnings.

(Chicah)

That business owner guy with three yatches and a two-level swimming pool? Oh, no, he doesn't need to learn any lessons, he's already learnt how to exploit those poorer than you." Quite the "lesson on economy".

That business owner would have invested a lot of money in his business to create jobs for others.

As for your attack of the rich, you don't make poor people rich by making rich people poor. (Chicah) Oh, reallly? You see, I think you DO. It is a sure thing that you can make rich people richer by making poor people poorer, then it must surely also be the other way around?

Criminal activity like stealing is NOT an acceptable way of taking money from the richer people. Neither is burning their businesses and making others unemployed.

(Chicah)

To put it simple: Tens of thousands of Somali children starve to death while we throw tonnes of food every week. A vast part of our global population are homeless. Yet, people in this part of the world own luxury properties and have several houses. We spend more money to research viagra than AIDS medicine.

As for any food I throw away, you're welcome to collect it put a stamp on it and send it to Africa. I wonder wether the starving will want it when it gets there.

(Chicah)

What does this tell us? It tells us we have all the means to change. We just don't want to. We are not willing to give up anything for others to get it better. Capitalism tells us it's okay, we deserve it. We deserve to reap the fruits of someone else's work.

It tells us that we work harder than some other people, also that we deserve to reap the fruits of our work and investments, and if that creates work for others all well and good.

Chicah)

This is how our economical system works. Our bosses get rich because we work. Our government gets "rich" because we work.

The government doesn't get rich, it has no money itself, it takes in money from the people to spend on behalf of the people.

(Chicah)

The funder of the Norwegian store Rimi, a cheap grocery store, has a vast fortune. Your regular Rimi-employee need to work 3000 years to get as rich as he is. In other words, he gets rich off their work, and they can't catch up no matter how much they think they can - because they work hard.

How much have these workers put into setting this company up? I guess nothing!

I know nothing about this person, I would think you don't either. Jealousy does not become you.

(chicah)Robbers steal the food...

Like bicycles, motorcycles, plasma TV's, trainers and clothes because they chose greed. And now they're paying for it.

This is a Criminal act and nothing more.

Now we have a bunch of wishy-washy, bleeding-heart, do-gooding liberals saying that the sentances are too severe.

INCITING A RIOT is a criminal offence and it deserves a harsher penalty than rioting itself.

  Edited August 21, 2011 by Merlin of Flyote  

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Cut it out, you two. You'll never see eye to eye with all this slanging back and forth.

Population pressure is a terrible thing, especially among the self-driven downtrodden. If you are convinced you are being walked all over whether you are or not, the worm sometimes turns. This is no excuse of illegal actions.

[Meg 368]

Do not forget the rule: Discuss the issues, not each other.

[dchotzen-hartzell19 34]

1. Stop fighting like little 12-year-olds. Neither of you make yourselves seem better by doing so.

2. It's impossible to make poor people rich by making rich people poor because there would not be enough wealth to redistribute.

3. It's possible to bring poor people out of poverty by redistributing an amount of wealth from the wealthy that is deemed acceptable by them.

4. If a government takes an unacceptably high amount of wealth from the wealthy (especially the self-made-men), then they will leave. Have any of you heard of "voting with your feet"?

THEY ARE 12-year-olds. How can they not fight like 12 year-olds.

[hym 358]

People need to remember to follow the site rules. If people won't control what they post, the thread will get to stand in the "cooling off" corner for a while. Don't push it that far.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Since the event in this thread is no longer current, it could probably stand to be locked, at least for a while.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

By Jove, Merlin - use some quote functions - an unreadable post. Who is saying what? Thanks for the headache.

Barbarossa

I've put Chicah's name before her lines mine are the ones inbetween. I could not use the normal system of displaying the quotes as the site wouldn't let me. It would seem there were too many quotes.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

By Jove, Merlin - use some quote functions - an unreadable post. Who is saying what? Thanks for the headache.

Barbarossa

I've put Chicah's name before her lines mine are the ones inbetween. I could not use the normal system of displaying the quotes as the site wouldn't let me. It would seem there were too many quotes.

Depends on how you do it. Type the quote command contained by square brackets and the /quote similarly. They don't have to be nested, and you don't need to use the drop down list.

However, can we consider the slanging match ended?

[chicah 20]

I agree that this isn't getting anywhere. Just to point out something, Merlin: I am not jealous. I honestly don't see what any man needs with several houses and two yachts, so don't worry, jealousy isnt driving me (funny how the right wing always accuses the left wing of jealousy - speaks quite a bit about what is the most important for the right wing, does it not?)

The final point I wanted to make, because of your jealous and "creating jobs"-argument, was this: The founder of that store would never, ever be rich if 1) he didn't have people working for him and 2) he didn't have people buying their food at his store. In other words, he owes the general population a lot. The least he can do is pay it back in taxes. As for the "he makes workplaces for people"-argument, I don't see how that is valid. The state/municpality/volunteer work makes workplaces too. He took a risk, yes, but that risk does not justify getting that rich off of other people's work. Everything is a risk. One could also see it like this: he gave the people the trust that they would choose his store, and they did because it was pretty cheap. Therefore, he should give something back. Risk or not, no matter what he did to make it that way, his customers and workers made him who he is.

[RipRap 4,400]

Wow this turned really ugly...

[Frdm920 50]

Would just like to draw attention to this...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-21/rioters-fired-at-unarmed-officers/2848704

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Such immature little brats. Discuss the issue, not eachother indeed. I heard that a great deal of people receiving some form of aid from the US government have many electronics/appliances considered luxuries of the middle class (widescreen TVs, cable or satellite, microwave ovens, refrigerators, dish-washing and laundry machines, high speed internet, automobiles, etc). Those luxuries are consistent with what people in Mexico consider middle-class. In Mexico City, there is no middle class ($$). By US American standards there is a vast homeless and lower class ($), some executives ($$$) and a few ultra-wealthy (including the vacation homes of US American Billionaires) class (elites/$$$$).

The riots are because of the tense times, general unrest, and the violence around the world.

I apologize for any offense taken.

  Edited August 21, 2011 by OcramSeattle  

[Gringamuyloca 47]

No matter what one's point of view may be.. name calling does not belong here,,, EVER!

It takes great restraint to keep threads on point...

Let us take a minute to remember how it felt when we first found this site.. and the fact that we all come from different walks in life.. which is what makes us special... and the world go round.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

By Jove, Merlin - use some quote functions - an unreadable post. Who is saying what? Thanks for the headache.

Barbarossa

I've put Chicah's name before her lines mine are the ones inbetween. I could not use the normal system of displaying the quotes as the site wouldn't let me. It would seem there were too many quotes.

Depends on how you do it. Type the quote command contained by square brackets and the /quote similarly. They don't have to be nested, and you don't need to use the drop down list.

However, can we consider the slanging match ended?

A Nonny Moose

Yes I know how to do it, the site wouldn't let me post with the number of quotes in the orignal post.

Frdm920

As handguns are illegal in Britain this person is clearly one of the criminal element of society, in order to possess such a weapon in the first place. This just proves my point that the riots were criminal and not a result of any form of social unrest.

At this point I would like to say that I do not have a personal problem with Chicah, but I do have a problem with the idea that the English Riots were anything other than an attack on the Police by criminal gangs of youths, joined by other people who were motivated by nothing other than Greed. They chose to steal rather than pay for what they wanted. They just saw an advantage in the moment.

Most ordinary people that I speak to on a regular basis think that these people are treated too leniently.

As for the point about Rich and Poor there will always be both it's a fact of life. Just because a person is rich doesn't make them unpopular look for example at people like Richard Branson, Alan Sugar etc. very popular in Britain. Even if all the wealth was divided equally, it wouldn't be long before it became unequal again.

As far as owning a business is concerned and employing people, the rate of return has to be greater than the amount that could be achieved by simply investing the money, otherwise why bother to create work for others.

If anybody doesn't wish to spend their money in businesses that are owned by the wealthy then don't it's a simple choice. However I don't think that most people are that bothered. If somebody wealthy owns a business that gives the people what they want that's where they will spend their money (e.g. Tesco's, Wallmart, Sears etc.).

Chicah makes some points in her last post which need answering in order to have a balanced debate.

Firstly if people don't work for a rich person they may not work at all and have to live on state handouts which puts up taxes for others.

Secondly people choose to shop at such shops out of free-will.

Thirdly the state can't own and provide everything and communism has been shown not to work.

Fourthly Volunteers don't get paid to work, they do it because they want to.

Fifthly I'm sure even the rich pay the taxes that they are due to pay, whatever the tax system is in that country. There can be arguments about the different tax systems and their pros and cons but tax evasion is illegal whereas tax avoidance is a basic right.

  Edited August 21, 2011 by Merlin of Flyote  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ A very nice summary of the plot of Aldous Huxley's Animal Farm. He was doing an allegory of a socialist revolution, you know.

Currently the gap between the filthy rich and the staggering poor is too wide, but there will eventually be a correction. Nature doesn't care for imbalances in anything.

The real question is what do these very rich do with their wealth? They can't possibly spend it on themselves, and even if they just bank or invest it, the resulting investment is spread out as credit which keeps the money fiction turning. Friday, all the markets took another dive, so this correction could well be underway.

If the bulls don't come thundering in soon, the whole western economy will be at the soup kitchen. In which case, I would like a serving of rocky mountain oysters.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Metroploitan Police are looking through CCTV and have so far discovered over 3000 different crimes and have charged over 1800 people.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Jamesrules90 133]

^^

If only prisoners had to do menial tasks that you couldn't pay people to do (Like Amazon Turk) and then the prison service would make money like how the chinese do it. I say we open salt mines and we be happy about it, or get them to join the army and work for no pay.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Vandals and looters do not deserve shelter and three meals a day. They should be sentenced to restitution.

[Jamesrules90 133]

When they come out they can look forward to cheap council housing and benefits, sometimes my country's socialistic side disgust me.

[Ion_Cannon 677]

That depends how seriously the government takes the public petition. If they don't the media will latch onto it and make hell for the condems. But there was talk (even before the public petition) of convicted looters losing their council houses.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Metropolitan Police report over 1800 arrested so far and over 1000 charged.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Too bad you no longer have the Court of the Star Chamber.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

^^

If only prisoners had to do menial tasks that you couldn't pay people to do (Like Amazon Turk) and then the prison service would make money like how the chinese do it. I say we open salt mines and we be happy about it, or get them to join the army and work for no pay.

Sadly the European Bill of Human Rights doesn't allow it.