get the NAM

[z1 566]

Simcity 4 Deluxe edition is all win

For EA. :D

[Tysons4 68]

Simcity 4 Deluxe edition is all win

For EA. :D

Win-win

They get the money - We get the product.

EA did publish it - Maxis developed it.

[z1 566]

Your  road is congested? Yes, you can get the NAM. Yes, it might fix (or  suppress) the problem. But you could also learn how to adapt your  transport system to the requirements of your city, you could learn how  to "beat" the simulator

I must disagree strongly with these statements.  If they were true, I'd still be playing the unmodded game, and would probably have never discovered custom content.  It was my Internet search for how to fix the problems I was having with the traffic simulator that led me to ST and the NAM.

Did I say that the default simulator is perfect? No, I didn't say that.

Did I say that "beating" the simulator means that you can get transportation "perfect" (whatever that means)? No, I didn't say that.

Does the fact that you were not pleased with the limitations and shortcomings imposed by the default simulator have anything to do with what I wrote? No, it doesn't.

Understood - no disagreement here.

What exactly in that statement is wrong? Please elaborate, because I don't see any connection to your reply.

I don't have any problem with the first three sentences I quoted. It's all in the last sentence. With the Maxis traffic simulator, there is often simply no way to "adapt your transport system to the requirements of your city"; whole classes of cities simply cannot be built with that simulator. This also means that for these cities, it is impossible to "beat" the simulator. As just one example, you cannot use the Maxis traffic simulator to build even medium-sized healthy cities on large tiles if the population is above 500,000. You will end up with masses of buildings abandoned due to commute time, regardless of how interleaved your zones are, and regardless of what else you do to your city. This is just one example; there are many, many more.

If this statement was wrong, then there would be no possibility whatsoever to remedy or alleviate traffic problems in a given city without downloading and installing an alternative simulator. However, I think we can all agree that even without the NAM, e.g. adding a subway route that is shorter than an existing (and congested) road will improve the situation.

Your first sentence exactly describes the case of the type of city I just described. And as for subways, I'll describe a specific example of that type of city as a counter-example to your second statement. Before I discovered custom content, I was playing completely vanilla SC4 Deluxe on a large tile with a high density downtown (including businesses and residences) that occupied about half the city, a mid density residential ring surrounding it, and industrial and low density residential zones around the outside. Population was about 360,000. Yet even at that level, things were starting to get so bad that, to quote another player, "My Sims are so stupid that they couldn't find a job if their lives depended on it." There were huge swaths of deserted residentials, some literally right across the street from empty office buildings that had perfect jobs for the departed residents. Traffic was congested almost all over the city. I was using 6x6 squares, and I had bus stops and subway stops at every corner. I had subway lines running underneath every street and road. Still, almost all the subway lines in high density areas were congested red. So in the worst areas, I ran additional subway lines through the middle of the blocks. This helped a few areas, so I kept adding subway lines, until my worst areas had a pair of subway lines (one in each direction) under every tile. This helped but didn't solve my problem, although it did expose a nasty SC4 bug. The more subway lines I added, the greater the tendency the game had to crash. And saving frequently was no good, because all the crashes were during the save operation. I eventually just gave up on my city.

Eventually I discovered the NAM. I installed one of the better traffic simulators of the time, and most of my traffic problems went away immediately. Suddenly the Sims could see those jobs that were right across the street. I had installed one of the higher capacity simulators, so now I didn't need all those subways. (BTW, I had not yet started to download custom buildings.) I tore out all my extra subway lines, and my crashes disappeared completely. And I never went back to the Maxis traffic simulator again, except for testing.

I am well aware that these possibilities meet their limits at a certain point because the default simulator is buggy and deficient. But this does not mean that a player can't take exactly this as a challenge and see how far he/she can get with the existing limitations, now, does it?

No, it doesn't. And for all those people who want to play with buggy traffic simulators, more power to them. But they would seem to be in a distinct minority. Whenever I've recommended to someone in one of these forums to get the NAM traffic simulator, it's been specifically because they've been complaining of a problem that I would be certain or almost certain was a bug in the Maxis traffic simulator, and that the NAM traffic simulator would fix. For those who like the Maxis traffic simulator and its rather unique challenges, I am quite happy to leave them as they are.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

I've played CitiesXL too and I enjoyed it, but there were some things that bugged me. For instance, the freeway system was a step back from SimCity 4 vanilla, taking up huge ammounts of empty an unneccesary space and you can only connect to certain types of roads. There are only 4 interchange types and one transistion for the freeway in-game. Beside that, for me the game is so much bugged, that I can't play it anymore, even with a CLEAN installation.

But I can agree with you Tyson that SimCity 4 is not really bad out of the box. It's still quite enjoyable and provides you a decent city builder tool. But you can always improve your game, and to me the improvement is huge. Now I'm not only enjoy building a city, but I'll also have a city that I like to look at.

And another point is that the tools don't really make the biggest difference; it's how you use them

[Mootilda 76]

Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I will start using capitols. I could even go back and edit my post to be easier to read if you would like.

I would really appreciate that. I've stopped even trying to read your posts, which makes this entire thread very one-sided.

It's sad that I can't read your posts, because I fundamentally agree with you (with some caveats). I haven't installed the NAM and don't intend to. However, I have been exploring various pathfinding fixes to increase my enjoyment of the game.

[Tysons4 68]

Went back and edited/

Bottom line, abandonment due to commute time is supposed to be part of the game, and 'Get the NAM' should not be said to help someone with basic game mechanics.

Only when they want roundabouts, 'realistic' highways, more street styles, or want to abandon the game mechanics would I say "Get the NAM'

But i would probably try to talk them out if it if they wanted to abandon the game mechanics.

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[z1 566]

Bottom line, abandonment due to commute time is supposed to be part of the game, and 'Get the NAM' should not be said to help someone with basic game mechanics.

How do you explain that this contradicts what Maxis officially stated, which is that the game would run better (and specifically, there would be less abandonment due to commute time) if the pathfinding heuristic were decreased in the traffic simulator, which was the biggest change by far that was made in the NAM traffic simulator? And that Maxis recommended doing this where possible, which it is in the NAM traffic simulator?

Are we then to understand from your statements that you believe you understand the way the game is designed to be played better than the NAM Team and better than Maxis as well?

  Edited March 20, 2011 by z1  

[Tysons4 68]

Bottom line, abandonment due to commute time is supposed to be part of the game, and 'Get the NAM' should not be said to help someone with basic game mechanics.

How do you explain that this contradicts what Maxis officially stated, which is that the game would run better (and specifically, there would be less abandonment due to commute time) if the pathfinding heuristic were decreased in the traffic simulator, which was the biggest change by far that was made in the NAM traffic simulator? And that Maxis recommended doing this where possible, which it is in the NAM traffic simulator?

Are we then to understand from your statements that you believe you understand the way the game is designed to be played better than the NAM Team and better than Maxis as well?

After over 8 years of playing with it I'm sure that I understand it better than anyone at Maxis thought could ever be done. I have the game manual right here next to me, along with the simcity 4 hint card, and i have committed both to memory. I play with the nam and other downloads by making alternate shortcuts to other plugin folders, but I play the unmodified game ten times much as I do with any mods. I don't even like to put my own created bats in with the base game because i feel it taints it. I play simcity 4 every day and dream of one day having my own plot of land to construct my own city.

I worked filming city council meetings for 8 years and understand the intricacies that have to go into to it. I filmed city council, planning commission, fish and game, MLPA (marine life protection agency),parks and recreation, state meetings, future meetings (forget what they are called, but ask what would you like in the next 25,50, 100 years from now and you get to vote), i was part of filming city festivals, I traveled all over California (and once to Nevada) listening very carefuly to private meetings, listened to people complain about a wal-mart coming to their city till 3 in the morning. I have sat through meetings in cities with crisis like no sewer treatment where homes have to be abandoned or taken from people because of the problem. I have seen it all when it comes to city planning and sustainable growth. I learned where the money comes from and goes, and it was pretty much like watching a real simcity. By the way, did you know that nearly every city in California can't pay for everything with their taxes and have been taking out loans annually to pay for basic services. It even got so bad in some cities that they have to take out loans to pay the interest on other loans before they can pay for basic services (fire, police, infrastructure, ect). I quit the job when the company i worked for didn't pay me correctly (they sent me a check for $1,700 when other people complained to the bbb.

I think of the way the traffic simulator works it is like simcity classic, roads are good for a time, but should be changed to rail when they get busy. Simcity 4 is no different, although this time when a street gets busy there are so many new ways to make it not busy other than changing it to a rail. And it is much like real life. Seeing how routes would be upgraded, and seeing city planners pro tools and talking with them about theories only made my bond to the simulator grow even fonder. Simcity is much more rewarding when it is figured out out of the box, instead of changing it because you can't wrap your head around it.

I figure as long as i don't have to take out many loans, always have a positive cash flow, and there is not much abandonment, then I am doing better than what is happening in real life - that is the city of my dreams.

Simcity 4 is the real city simulator-it says so right on the back of the box-you can't get any realer than real, and if they want to take the shortest route to work, i will make that their fastest.

  Edited March 21, 2011 by Tysons4  

[z1 566]

That's all very interesting, but you didn't answer any of my questions. And your description of your game understanding is not at all uncommon for those people with a lot of experience playing the game, especially those who do a lot of modding. Such understanding is a necessity for many of us.

Simcity 4 is the real city simulator-it says so right on the back of the box

.

That's marketing material. It's there to sell the game. I'm sure Cities XL says the same thing or something very similar.

So are you going to answer my original questions?

  Edited March 21, 2011 by z1  

[Nardo69 51]

Actually - there are some issues in the pathfinding of Simcity. Maxis chose the easiest way of implementing the pathfinding routine - just look for the geometrical shortest way from Point A to Point B. Sounds logical, is kind of logical but not working properly if you want to simulate RL halfway adequately. Actually this very basic pathfinding fails if you want to create a simulated model off most Traffic networks except some very small villages.

Why? Well, one of the analogies of traffic in the world of physics is electric resistance. The higher the resistance due to capacity or congestion the less electricity / traffic is flowing. Trucks will not use small side roads if they can use a major arteria - just think of all that maneuvres that would be necessary. More or less the same for busses - if you ever had to check out if a bus or track can pass geometrically through a given road you will know what I mean.

You need to know the local quarters to use shortcuts and side roads. Or would you leave the highway, make your way through unknown quarters, maybe ghettos to the next highway exit just because leaving the highway would make you drive 22,750 km instead of 23,1? You might change km to miles, the units don't matter, just get the idea.

Another thing are road signs - even in the era of navigation systems. As a planner you can make people use different roads just by placing or not placing road signs. An aspect that is completely missing in SC4.

Sims are doing all this. People in RL won't. do. Not the 99,9% maybe the 0,1% which are the exception from the rule.

As Andreas said SC4 was designed in a way that it can be run on a Pentium III with 128 mb RAM.

HOWEVER in one aspect I do agree with tysons4: you should have understand how the game works before you go into aesthetical details, how to make you traffic flow the way you want it, the micromanagement, etc. For the basic understanding of the game mechanics you don't need the NAM. But after you got to a certain level you don't want to miss it. At least not me.

[Tysons4 68]

Sorry z1, I think you are going back to what Maxis originally stated and my answer is this.

Back in 2003 when the game came out i bought it and played it about every day since then. It wasn't untill 2006 that i got the internet(before i used my girlfriends computer and she only had dial up), and I bought a brand new 3 ghz single core with 4 gigs of ram with pci express graphics. I even played the game without patches for 3 years on my girlfriends system that bairly had the specs to play it (not even a ghz or half a gig of ram). I went from vanilla (which got scratched up, although i bought another copy) to rush-hour when it came out, and now i own a grand total of 6 deluxe editions (I spend money on things I like, even if they are the same) and even a copy on steam, which I now play on my netbook.

I wasn't even there during the discussions when the game came out, I only played the game.

Once I had the internet I went in deeper with the game, firstly patching it and going all though the Maxis site to get all the information i could, which led me to here and other simcity 4 fan sites (simtroplis is the best). I played the game only patched and found out how to make other instances of the game so i could play with user created data. The user created games usually lacked the depth that the base simulator has, as with nam you can build ciries with only streets and still succeed in building a towering metropolis (which i never thought simcity was about, i always thought it was aout keeping a positive income so you could afford make the sims lives better)

After seeing what other people were doing it sullied the game for me and i went into an all mods or nothing else to try to catch up with the crowd. Until one day i said to myself i was missing the point, and played the game again, this time to understand the sims. I started filling my regions, unlike before when i would just play one city. I started to think about the region as a real spot on the planet that could be developed. I followed the system set by maxis to develop all 3 types of zones, and got good at it. I could make cities that were only industrial, cities that were only commercial, and only residential cities. I could make mixed use cities. Cities were the residents were on the borders and the industrial was in the center. I started to develop regional plans and working with the simulator to develop the most efficient mass transit I could muster. And there are so many plans, ideas, and maps that i haven't tried that i now realize i could go on forever playing this game exactly as it was given to me. I learned how to play the game through trial and error.

I even got to play with cxl durring the beta and I found that the people in that game will take the fastest route (unlike simcity where they take the shortest route). Needless to say when cities xl came out i didn't even buy it, it was like playing City Life with the nam and a new coat of gloss. Simcity goes much much deeper than trying to modify a new path finding algorithm. The sims will find a way to get from A to B, be it a long commute or short commute. Simcity was about upgrading busy streets to roads, roads to avenues, and avenues to highways as each one got busier and using mass transit to take the burden off the car networks.; Cities xl wasn't about that, sure routes get busy but you can't really upgrade past a one way road or adding an extra lane or two (if the network permits it). I didn't even play the beta the whole time, there was no real learning in cities xl. It was all graphics and having things look pretty, i figured the game out in about 10 hours. I am still learning things from simcity 4 after all these years

I learned how to make the simulator work, and sure simcity has a very very steep learning curve. I would never substitute learning something for making something look pretty. "Get the NAM" shouldn't be a suggestion to people that are new to the game, they still have much to learn.

Because the sims take the shortest path does not mean the game is broken and needs to be fixed, it mean that you must use your intelligence to make it work.

I won't even talk about simcity societies (which killed me a little inside when i played it- AHHHHHHHHHH, how dumb... I wouldn't even recommend it to a child (and anyone that calls it simcity 5... don't get me started)

If I didn't answer your question, then please refresh my memory.

  Edited March 21, 2011 by Tysons4  

[MandelSoft 2,769]

I wasn't even there during the discussions when the game came out, I only played the game.

Once I had the internet I went in deeper with the game, firstly patching it and going all though the Maxis site to get all the information i could, which led me to here and other simcity 4 fan sites (simtroplis is the best). I played the game only patched and found out how to make other instances of the game so i could play with user created data. The user created games usually lacked the depth that the base simulator has, as with nam you can build ciries with only streets and still succeed in building a towering metropolis (which i never thought simcity was about, i always thought it was aout keeping a positive income so you could afford make the sims lives better)

I have to disagree here. With the NAM you still can get "abandon by commute time" simply because your road network is clogged. I have two cities, Konrad and Schellingen-Stadt, with more than 500,000 inhabitants, and although it looks like they are using mostly road, they also use a lot of One Way Roads (Konrad), Tram-in-Road (Both), main avenues only intersecting major roads (Schellingen) and subways (Konrad). Both cities are doing fine, although abandonment still is a problem (not really that much, but it's still there).

[Tysons4 68]

I wasn't even there during the discussions when the game came out, I only played the game.

Once I had the internet I went in deeper with the game, firstly patching it and going all though the Maxis site to get all the information i could, which led me to here and other simcity 4 fan sites (simtroplis is the best). I played the game only patched and found out how to make other instances of the game so i could play with user created data. The user created games usually lacked the depth that the base simulator has, as with nam you can build ciries with only streets and still succeed in building a towering metropolis (which i never thought simcity was about, i always thought it was aout keeping a positive income so you could afford make the sims lives better)

I have to disagree here. With the NAM you still can get "abandon by commute time" simply because your road network is clogged. I have two cities, Konrad and Schellingen-Stadt, with more than 500,000 inhabitants, and although it looks like they are using mostly road, they also use a lot of One Way Roads (Konrad), Tram-in-Road (Both), main avenues only intersecting major roads (Schellingen) and subways (Konrad). Both cities are doing fine, although abandonment still is a problem (not really that much, but it's still there).

Really, what I am trying to say is new players should be encouraged to figure out the simulator before they begin modifying. I understand most of the players here are seasoned veterans and have come up with their own ideas for their cities and have their own heavily modified games, When someone new to the game wants to know the best way to get from a to b or why no one is riding their subways we should not be answering "get the NAM because the game is broken and needs to be fixed" The best way from a to b depends on what you want your sims to do, and they are probably not riding the subways because it is not as efficient as driving, increase ridership by making sure a station is in all 3 types of zones, there is a parking garage near the residential, and the path is shorter than driving.

For your problem with abandonment i would say start a new city only connect it with your subway. Start fulfilling demand that is the highest (im assuming that the abandonment is in your residential zones) which would probably mean you need high-tech industry. With only the subway connection you will increase ridership in your main cities and get people off the roads. Make sure that in the new city you keep garbage away from the industrial, and either use a seaport or freight rail to get your industry to simnation. Either buy power from a neighbor, or build a power plant near the landfill and sell the excessive power. Do the same with water. When you reload your main city you should see sims getting off the roads, subway ridership soar and sims move into your once abandoned homes.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

Well, the abandonment issue is not that large; it only affects about 5% of the ressidential buildings. Also, a portion of industrial zones seems to solve the problem (looks like the abandonment was because there were simply not enough jobs). Also, I should build a bus network in Schellingen-Mitte...

  Edited March 21, 2011 by mrtnrln  

[RiCHBoyZ 75]

i may/would like to test out SC4 Deluxe with only NAM (V29) see what will come up and any significant improvement to the game.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

i may/would like to test out SC4 Deluxe with only NAM (V29) see what will come up and any significant improvement to the game.

Good luck with that. Sounds interesting. You'd have to do it with and without the add ons, of course and have some way to compare results in detail. I look forward to your report. I suggest you use flat land sandboxes to eliminate any terrain variables.

[z1 566]

i may/would like to test out SC4 Deluxe with only NAM (V29) see what will come up and any significant improvement to the game.

An awful lot depends on how big your test city is. If it's a small city, you'll see very little difference. But if you've got a city of 500,000 or more, the differences will be quite major.

Also, if you plan to use both traffic simulators on the same city, you should use the Maxis one first. Otherwise, when you switch traffic simulators, the Maxis simulator will continue to use the routes constructed by the NAM simulator, and the differences will be much less than they would be otherwise.

[Cob92 360]

I learned how to make the simulator work, and sure simcity has a very very steep learning curve. I would never substitute learning something for making something look pretty. "Get the NAM" shouldn't be a suggestion to people that are new to the game, they still have much to learn.

The NAM does not have to do that. It is certainly capable of killing the core gameplay by giving you cheat roads, but it is also entirely possible to set the NAM up such that the traffic simulation is mostly preserved and the only real change is the way that routes are calculated. You still have to upgrade streets to roads, roads to one-way/avenue, and so on, but the difference is that with the NAM you won't have people abandoning the city en masse when there are massive numbers of surplus jobs available because the pathfinding algorithm got confused after 2 blocks. You are right that it shouldn't be the the first thing suggested to new players who haven't even built a city of 10000 sims, but the NAM can be used to augment gameplay rather than remove or replace it. I use the NAM, but not so I can build pretty cities that would never work in the actual SC4 simulation. I still play SC4 as a game (and the lack of the gameplay element is why CXL has lost its luster to me), and the NAM serves only to make my experience more fun.

[RiCHBoyZ 75]

Good luck with that. Sounds interesting. You'd have to do it with and without the add ons, of course and have some way to compare results in detail. I look forward to your report. I suggest you use flat land sandboxes to eliminate any terrain variables.

An awful lot depends on how big your test city is. If it's a small city, you'll see very little difference. But if you've got a city of 500,000 or more, the differences will be quite major.

Also, if you plan to use both traffic simulators on the same city, you should use the Maxis one first. Otherwise, when you switch traffic simulators, the Maxis simulator will continue to use the routes constructed by the NAM simulator, and the differences will be much less than they would be otherwise.

This project has begun 72 hours ago and i can doing comparison for both today.

Let start with NAM first.

Both begun with large tile a single city in the region. I start layout the city with streets, roads, avenues and rails. (Note: This layout has been zipped before anything grow and to be use later in NO NAM mode.)

Using NAM for your first city is very convenience intern of joining or extending streets, roads, avenues and highways (SRAH). When population reaching about 50k i did not see any sims nagging about SRAH reach limit. Wuth highrise building all ready appear in the city view the population rapidly increased and demand for ID/IM/HT very high. A few buildings show up suitcase bag! After 1 year running the city all ready make huge money even my tax 9% never change since beginning for all sectors.

Reaching 150k populations road limit notice start to pop-up. When my populations at 250k i could not stand any more so i quit the game and run Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool and tune it to ULTRA setting which before was HIGH. Right after that my city activities boost up, no more suitcase bag icon, no more SRAH reach limit nagging and kii not to forget Abandon building due to it. At 350k i begin to expend the city scape, i started to build highway bridge and monorails to fulfill the sims demand.

Now the populations has reach 520k, big city, big HT and large empty space to develop!

In NO NAM mode, i took out above city to different folder and zipped it. After unzipped the jointriversidestartnam.zip i hit the game. Remember this was no plugin, no NAM, no cheat and more sweat! Samo-ammo city layout plan has give me few SRAH alteration due to missing plugin. (see picture)

After fixing the SRAH and building a farmland i start the city. Within 5 years the city growth very slow and the populations have not reach 10k! With the deficit of debt about to force the mayor resign i make 2nd time financial loan at $100k the save the city.

With the money in pocket i started to build IM/ID/HT, at first only Dirty Industries appear and the pollution begin to polluting the city atmosphere. This point city population just increased 5%. I lower down the tax for all sectors to 1% ~ 5% the attract sims to my city. When reach 25-30k then the problem arise.... SRAH reach limit, abandon building, the suitcase bag, fire in the city! I noticed that with NAM my fire truck reach the destination a lot faster than no NAM! For example, in NAM mode the fire building only came out smoke when the fire truck arrived but in no NAM mode the fire has spread and some case the build can not be save anymore when the firetruck arrived! What a different!?! Remember this is early stage i has not yet expend my city scape from beginning. Even in NAM mode when i started building ID/IM/HT from same layout plan and same area has fire problem. When population reach 50k above clearly city has it own problems that is SRAH reach limit. Others consistent problem was abandon and no job!

I have uses all my expertise, experiences and knowledge the develop the city as same manner as NAM mode city to reach gold 500k populations as z1 suggested. I expend the city, build highway bridge and monorails but non work so far. The city not making much money and any further development is impossible! At about same year the city has fail to reach their gold.

So do your own conclusion to get NAM or just play zero plugin. I all ready knew what NAM alone can do for my city. I cant wait when next project start i will added CAM aboard! That make it SC4D + NAM + CAM'S only. Anyway if got any question regarding above test please do not hesitate to ask me. Maybe my explanation not answered all your wondering head! BTW if you like me to email you the .sc4 file of this city also can, just pm me. TQ

~ i am not an American and i not a British either! Sorry for my bad English and my mother tongue language is Bahasa Malaysia.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

^^ Excellent testing! This clearly shows the difference between the NAM and no NAM.

[z1 566]

^^ Excellent testing! This clearly shows the difference between the NAM and no NAM.

I agree. So for those who are still reluctant to add a package to their SC4 that includes a number of new networks, an improved traffic simulator, improved data views, and various other enhancements, keep in mind that I just described the Rush Hour expansion pack.

[Comrade Kc 7]

Hey, i just found out you can make street bridges with the NAM ;P

edit: hey iv been reading the posts...hear is what i say to simptolians. If you like the game and dont want to change it then dont, this game rocks you will enjoy over 5 years of playing before you notice problems. But you will notice them eventually, it will grow on you. Then when you do try out some NAM..... well if all this is hear in 5 years anyway. but once you do you wont ever go back.

  Edited March 23, 2011 by Comrade Kc  

[kingdiz_55 12]

IMHO, all that's really needed is for SC4 to be updated. It's an old game running on newer systems it isn't optimized for. Even if we had to pay for these updates, (meaning EA would earn moolah) I'm sure that most if not all of us in the ST community would.

[Tysons4 68]

I don't think any of you understand what i am saying...

"Get the NAM" is not the answer to anything.

And i would consider Richboyz test null. Sure you can build a big city with a bunch of mods and then remove the mods and have it not work, but in order to be unbiased you need to also build a big successful city with no mods and then change the simulator <where the real challenge in gameplay is)

And yes you can still play the game with nam set to low, or whatever, and have extra pieces, but it shouldn't be "get the nam" when the first line of the post is "I'm new to the game" unless they are looking for some mods.

Cities xl simulator finds the quickest way to work, and i'll bet Cities XL never lasts as long as Simcity 4 and ill attribute that to the fact that Simcity 4 is much more realistic with its stock simulator and making people have to work to build a city.

oh and it says "The biggest SIMCITY ever" on the back of the simcity 4 box << don't know where i pulled that other line from.

This kinda makes me sad and want to leave the community when everyone disses the games simulator saying it is broken. And i do play with the nam, the glaring flaws in it though make me quit and go back to base simulator, especially the bus thing. With the nam simcity 4 js cookie cutter, might as well be playing cities xl.

I stand behind Maxis and EA's decision not to release any more patches or updates. The game is perfect.

  Edited March 23, 2011 by Tysons4  

[RiCHBoyZ 75]

And i would consider Richboyz test null. Sure you can build a big city with a bunch of mods and then remove the mods and have it not work, but in order to be unbiased you need to also build a big successful city with no mods and then change the simulator <where the real challenge in gameplay is

just wanted to point out that the 'null' test really WITHOUT any other mod except NAM. Here is the city for you all to check. The city will not asking you any missing plugins except NAM. Joint Riverside City [NAM]

  Edited March 23, 2011 by RiCHBoyZ  

[sneakeypete 16]

Calling the test null is utterly ridicilious. You build a city With NAM, you were unable to build anything remotely like it without, I think that is the entire and exact point of it...

[jdenm8 362]

I'd just like to quote these posts from the SimCity BB from 2003, from an ACTUAL Maxis staff member, a very reputable modder at the time, the7trumpets (who was a founder of what is today the NAM team), and someone else also discussing the pathfinder. This is pre Rush-Hour, but most of the problems here still exist.

By the way, the reason why the heuristic is set at 0.09 instead of lower is for performance reasons. The lower you make this the smarter the traffic sim[ulation] gets, but the longer it takes to complete a traffic cycle. If you've got a buff machine, drop it and be happy. If your machine is emitting smoke and screaming at you to make it stop, turn it up a bit

I can understand the pathfinding heuristic being set higher to speed up performance, but surely you could find a middle ground that allows for both good pathfinding and good performance? As it is now, that value is so high that pathfinding virtually doesn't exist. Sims do NOT take the fastest route to work in almost any situation; rather, they take the most direct, in terms of shortest possible distance. this results in ridiculously overused streets, crowded roads, empty highways, and underused mass transit systems. Surely there's a better way to improve performance than by crippling the pathfinder? the7trumpets' pathfinding modd doesn't have THAT much of an impact on performance... I think the worst was a 45% slowdown, and that was only with the PERFECT pathfinding mod. In my case, the slowdown was MAYBE 15%, which is MORE than tolerable since it means sims actually look for the fastest way to work instead of the most direct. Few of my streets are overcrowded, and my highways are heavily used, for the first time since I bought the game.

While I see your point Toroca, we have to remember that the minimum spec computer they quoted was a 500MHz machine. This means they have to make it playable on slow machines. A better option would be a selection in the game prefferences which allows you to adjust to your taste. Just an idea.

Right there is the sole reason why Sims find the shortest route, not the fastest one.

The game had to be able to be run on exactly that runtime of your girlfriend's, with a low clock rate CPU and little RAM.

Conclusion: Even MAXIS thought the simulator they had made was terrible and they encouraged changes to force the sims to find FASTER routes, but their hands were tied by low system requirements, thus why the game didn't ship with the recommendations.

Also remember, the "Buff" machine described there probably can't hold a candle to a modern Laptop.

  Edited March 23, 2011 by jdenm8  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I stand behind Maxis and EA's decision not to release any more patches or updates. The game is perfect.

BS! You know perfectly well that the game is quite buggy and incomplete. How do you explain the dereferenced zero pointers that cause crashes? If anyone turned a program like that in to me when I was working, I'd show him the door.

We are a very tolerant community, but please don't insult our intelligence with that kind of EA brainwashing.

  Edited March 23, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Jazzmaster 716]

I don't think any of you understand what i am saying...

"Get the NAM" is not the answer to anything.

It isn't the answer to everything...if it's too intimidating or changes too much for your liking, then no it isn't the answer.

If it's more transit networks and/or 'different' pathfinding then yes, it IS the answer.

And i would consider Richboyz test null. Sure you can build a big city with a bunch of mods and then remove the mods and have it not work, but in order to be unbiased you need to also build a big successful city with no mods and then change the simulator <where the real challenge in gameplay is)

By 'a bunch of mods' you mean one right? Of course, I understand where you're coming from (if I'm reading it correctly). If you've spent half a decade or more playing the game one way, you've got this entire systematized and articulate way of doing things that people who look at you might think you aren't even thinking about it, it just comes naturally. And the little changes will make big differences, differences not everybody can adjust to. Doesn't make it bad though, I don't think.

And yes you can still play the game with nam set to low, or whatever, and have extra pieces, but it shouldn't be "get the nam" when the first line of the post is "I'm new to the game" unless they are looking for some mods.

Getting the NAM has been a standard response for years on this site...but I don't think I've seen it in every single situation. Again I don't think it's for beginners, as you do really need to know what computer savvy folks consider elementary to make it work properly. But it isn't for everybody, of course not.

Cities xl simulator finds the quickest way to work, and i'll bet Cities XL never lasts as long as Simcity 4 and ill attribute that to the fact that Simcity 4 is much more realistic with its stock simulator and making people have to work to build a city.

Allegedly this has been the case ever since the abismal slap in our face known as 'SimCity: Societies' came out. But I've never played that game, or any of the other SimCity or city-simulators released post SC4. So, I can't really make a valid judgement here.

This kinda makes me sad and want to leave the community when everyone disses the games simulator saying it is broken. And i do play with the nam, the glaring flaws in it though make me quit and go back to base simulator, especially the bus thing. With the nam simcity 4 js cookie cutter, might as well be playing cities xl.

As I've said, I don't agree that the game is bad right out of the box either. As I've said, I LOVED it when I first purchased it, and not a single mod was in there. As I've said, I actually enjoyed learning how to play the game.

What changed was that I could develop much more rapidly, and with the amount of custom content increasing exponentially, I could more and more place what I wanted there, not just place something there, and pretend its the real thing (for example, installing a monorail system and pretending it's a high speed rail line).

BUT. I have seen people who play the game, without cheats, and still use custom content. So the two can be mixed together. Each to his or her own style.

I stand behind Maxis and EA's decision not to release any more patches or updates. The game is perfect.

This all depends on your definition of perfect. If by 'perfect' you mean void of glitches, then no, it's not perfect at all. I just read an article today about EA patching it's latest installment in the Need for Speed Series (Hot Pursuit). EA is one of those companies that patches what it sees profitable. I'm not saying it's right or fair, but I'm saying what really is a fact...

They didn't leave us what we have because it's perfect, they simply stopped supporting it because they weren't getting enough from it.

If by perfect, you mean an accurate, challenging representation of the real world of urban planning, then it is closer to perfect.

If by perfect, you mean perfect for you, then yes, it is truly perfect. But this definition of perfect is truly opinion, like so many things involving this thread topic.

By the way, please don't be turned away from the community. You're as valued as anyone else here and so is your opinion. I've read all of what you said just not necessarily agreed with all of it. But you do make sense.

As much as EA and Maxis could've put so much more into the game, let's not forget what they did leave us, and be brainwashed with the ideas that the game is garbage and should be stripped down entirely with mods that completely eliminate Maxis content. We might get sick of seeing the same Maxis content over and over, but I would sure as hell get sick of seeing the same custom content over and over again, myself.

  Edited March 23, 2011 by Yoshiisland  

[Mootilda 76]

I'd just like to quote these posts from the SimCity BB from 2003, from an ACTUAL Maxis staff member, a very reputable modder at the time, the7trumpets (who was a founder of what is today the NAM team), and someone else also discussing the pathfinder. This is pre Rush-Hour, but most of the problems here still exist.

[... quotes removed...]

Right there is the sole reason why Sims find the shortest route, not the fastest one.

The game had to be able to be run on exactly that runtime of your girlfriend's, with a low clock rate CPU and little RAM.

Conclusion: Even MAXIS thought the simulator they had made was terrible and they encouraged changes to force the sims to find FASTER routes, but their hands were tied by low system requirements, thus why the game didn't ship with the recommendations.

Also remember, the "Buff" machine described there probably can't hold a candle to a modern Laptop.

This still doesn't explain why people recommend the NAM to newcomers. There is a simple pathfinding fix available, which could be used to fix this one major problem while allowing people to continue to play with a (mostly) vanilla game.. But instead, people recommend the NAM, which is a very large mod which changes the game in a lot of ways.

So, why not recommend a small mod which fixes the problem, rather than recommending the NAM to people who are new to the game?