get the NAM

[Tysons4 68]

Ok, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it seems that whenever someone has a problem with something in their game or have a question most times it turns into a 'get the NAM.'

I know the network addon mod, I have been using it since it first came out by using alternate plugin folders and know good and well what it is fully capable of.

However, there are still folks like me that understand the maxis simulator and make it work. I think of the maxis simulator as a force, as in you need to force your sims to use transit; Meaning don't make cities that are huge grids, have dead ends, and make your only neighbor connections highways or other forms of transit that can handle higher numbers.

Sure there are a whole bunch of new cosmetic pieces that i want (i love you you can turn an ave to one ways) but there is a lot of logic built into the games default simulator... i would probably tell everyone to get the nam if you could choose to run it with the default maxis simulator and only add those cosmetic pieces, however i can notice those those little tweaks that have been made by choosing any of the NAMs alternate simulator values (even making my own transit style with the configuration tool doesn't allow me to say i want buses to act the way they normally do, as with the nam it makes 1 car equal to 1 bus rider)

I have been hoping problems would get fix, and someoene probably is working on them, but i know, that the maxis simulator does work and would go without the roundabouts and the turn lanes because the game holds sentimental value to me, and sure if a fixed default simulator (meaning it is exactly as the maxis including the bus thing) was added to the nam I wouldn't be telling people they need it as i feel it is unneeded for the game to be successful, and should not be used by someone that is new to the game.

I have 2 city journals right now, one unmodded (http://www.simtropol...__1#entry931620), and the other completely modded http://www.simtropol...41734-simopoly/, i hold the unmodded game near and dear to my heart, and feel like it has everything it needs (although crashing problems could be fixed, but it is far less than my modded game)

There are 2 approaches to this game. 1. take it head on, which i have done, and master the default game, easily filling cities and planning a vast metropolis, or 2, say I don't want to think about traffic, or I don't want to have to upgrade busy roads, and begin modding the game which can be just as rewarding and enriching to the player.

What I am trying to say is when someone has a question or wants to understand something about the game the first advice shouldn't be "get the nam" unless the person is wanting to change an aspect of the game and do the simulator to their liking or use sam, rhw, or canals. NAM can be rewarding, make things easier, and allow many cosmetic pieces, but the game works without it. Even if they use the nam they still have to figure the game out, it only adds complication to the process.

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[Tarkus 6,931]

I think you're forgetting that the NAM has, for the past few releases, had a "keep my existing simulator" option in its installer, which will cause the NAM to not install a traffic simulator and rely upon whatever you're running. The current build of simulator offered in the NAM is highly recommended--generally required if you plan to use the Network Widening Mod (NWM), RealHighways (RHW), and Turn Lane Extension Pieces (TuLEPs), which will behave very strangely without it due to the capacity/speed settings for each network, the Congestion vs. Speed Curve and the Interchange and Congestion Effect values in Maxis and "Maxis-spec" simulators (e.g.the old "Standard"/"Better Pathfinding"/"Perfect Pathfinding" options that used to be in the NAM itself). We don't provide official technical support for other options, generally. But the option to use something else does exist, and we added that option (and created the "Previous NAM Simulators Package") specifically to address concerns from the faithful users of some older traffic simulator plugins who didn't want to switch.

Additionally, Maxis themselves has stated that the traffic simulator settings they shipped with the game were inefficient and, in effect, broken. There are some old threads on the EA forums, from back in 2003 in which early modders, like the7trumpets and Toroca, discuss the values with Maxis employees, such as this one (note: you need to be logged into the EA SC4 site to read it). The high pathfinding heuristic value (0.09) used in the default traffic simulator settings is almost entirely responsible for the erratic behavior of traffic in the unmodded game. Namely, the default simulator has a tendency to always use the physically shortest route, often disregarding speed, congestion and the actual fastest route, and was primarily designed the way it was to ease concerns about performance on low-end Pentium IIIs with 128MB of RAM, which were still prevalent back when the game first came out.

Given that it's been over 8 years since the game came out, and even low-end computers nowadays are orders of magnitude more powerful than Pentium IIIs with 128MB of RAM, having a lower pathfinding heuristic value does not significantly impact performance like it once did. z1 (who I should add, has decades of software engineering experience) has done extensive research into all the properties of the simulator and was able to even fine-tune things to the point at which the game will run quite smoothly with the very low heuristic value in the NAM Simulator, even on a low-end computer. The idea of using an older simulator plugin with a higher heuristic value for performance purposes is essentially moot at this juncture, as technology has progressed over the years, and now, it is ultimately more a matter of personal playing style.

Given how open-ended SC4 is as a game, you can really define "challenge" however you want. That's the great thing about it, and is part of its long-lasting appeal. How many games released the past decade still have an active user and content development community 8 years after release? Many folks like the gameplay paradigm the NAM and its various plugins allow, and it has kept them playing the game. They find their own challenges and ways to keep the game interesting with it, and I believe that is why it is as popular as it is. As far as why it is so heavily recommended to new members discovering the community for the first time, it is between that and the fact that most people who are entering the community come to find new content that does, in fact, change their game play.

If the bus thing bothers you, but you still want to take advantage of all the plugins the NAM has to offer, including the NWM and RHW, I'd download the aforementioned Previous NAM Simulators Package and install Simulator A-Hard. The bus congestion settings are the same as Maxis' default, but the other settings, including the capacity, speed, the Congestion vs. Speed Curve and the Intersection and Turn Capacity Effect values, are set so as to be more or less compatible with all newer plugin options, including the RHW and NWM.

-Alex (Tarkus)

  Edited March 14, 2011 by Tarkus  

[Tysons4 68]

I know what you are saying about your sims taking the shortest route but I have found that it is much more fun to play the game than to mess with the settings.

I have built massive regions and have been playing the game since it came out. I can make the highways the most congested thing on the map, i can have monorails used to capacity, my trains, roads streets, all functioning perfectly, allowing the sims to get to their work, to a place to shop, and back home. I like the challenge of making the game work, and it all does work.

If the game was truly broken there would have been a patch release for it, instead the game was abandoned. and that's not to say the game is broken.

The problems in the forums are from 2003, right when the game came out and the year is now 2011. Reading the post from back then is almost funny how threatening it comes off. Why would maxis want to do another simcity if all they get are complaints that "it's flawed"? It is a game. it is not a real life breathing city. It is a simcity. Sure they don't take the fastest route to work (unless you make that their only way) and it can be hard for someone that is just getting into it to understand how the game works, but the fix for the game is not to change anything. You can make the game however you like, which maxis allowed us to do (and if they didn't i don't think that many people would be here) however, the best education isn't neglecting the default simulator when someone has a question.

NAM is great to make maps for real world cities, adds a plethora of new pieces, and can relieve some of the stress that comes with building a simcity but it does not fix the game, it simply modifies it, and when someone has a question about the game mechanics or needs help doing something, first solution isn't "download the nam" when really that should only be said if the player wants a modified game, to have new puzzle peices, or wants to recreate a city in real life.

It would be like going in and modifying simcity classic so you don't need to replace busy roads with rail... but that was all part of the game

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[z1 566]

if the game was truly broken there would have been a patch release for it, instead the game was abandoned. and that's not to say the game is broken.

Many people from the NAM Team and other developers can tell you that the game is filled with numerous bugs, and that the reactions in the 2003 posts are not out of line at all, especially since many more bugs have been discovered since then. For example, there is the Eternal Commuter Loop bug, which could probably be fixed with just a few lines of source code that would prevent backtracking to a Sim's original city. Instead, this bug has caused huge problems for large numbers of people, and it is impossible for us to fix it without the source code.

Then there's a whole class of bugs associated with transit enabled lots. There are so many of them that I don't think anyone has bothered to count them. For example, as I mentioned in a thread in response to one of your posts, transit station congestion doesn't work at all, even though Maxis makes it look like it does. There's a very simple way to implement something like this properly, but again, we can't do it without the source code.

That's just one example; I could go on for pages about TE lot bugs alone. We know that the game was abandoned; unfortunately, it was abandoned with many serious bugs still in it. But it mostly works, and the majority of players don't realize that a big reason they have trouble building certain types of cities is due to bugs in the game. It took many of us a long time to discover this. So EA can continue selling the game as it is, and they have no compelling reason to put out a patch, even though the bugs are well known to experienced players and developers.

As far as the Sims' travel habits go, to this day the official SC4 site says, "The route which they take will be the one that is shortest in time." We all know that in the vanilla SC4, this is not true - they take the one that is shortest in distance. Fortunately, we didn't need the source code to fix that, and based on Maxis' own public words, this feature of the NAM traffic simulator can be considered as a bug fix to the original Maxis traffic simulator.

  Edited March 14, 2011 by z1  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

First, a word of thanks to all the various teams that have worked long and hard over the years to give us add ons and fixes that could be fixed. thanks guys and gals.

Now, a word about how to not write a program.

First, put together your A team, and give them a specification.

Second, about the time the team has a prototype, you change the spec.

Third, you announce an impossible release date, and change the spec.

Fourth, you sent a prototype copy to the production office, and change the spec.

Fifth, with the gold disk in hand, you get the team to patch it enough to make it run so that it won't be returned immediately, and you change the spec to the expansion pack.

When the team gets the prototype done for the expansion pack, you change the spec and add UDI

You announce the release date, way before the prototype including UDI is working, and you change the spec.

You release the buggy game, and force the team to patch it to sort-of work.

You disband the team

The users start sending in bug reports. You do nothing.

The users start using some of the tools you have provided and complain that some of it doesn't work.

You release the BAT, with a new Lot Editor and a big patch to make it all work. You change the spec.

You receive bug reports at infinitum and do nothing.

You get some hacker in your company to hack the game on to consoles but do nothing about the bugs.

You license the game to Steam, but you patch it first with the published patches, but do nothing about the bugs.

You abandon the game to the marketing arm (like sending Joan of Arc to the stake).

And now, if it were not for the good guys at the various fan sites, your game would have passed into history without a ripple, but you can ignore all the flap,because you are till getting a dribble of revenue from that old pile of bugs.

This is called writing code without conscience. You don't care, because you are making money, money, money.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The ethics of companies like EA are a paradigm of our modern era. Come the apocalypse.

[z1 566]

That's a brilliant description of what's happened to our dear SC4, John. I broke out laughing in the middle of it. Unfortunately, it's not very funny when you think about it.

[Tysons4 68]

Yeah, but see here is where simcity backed its self into a corner. The community is saying "fix this little flaw" when they could have been working on something much bigger than what the community could foresee, and when the community gets on them to make nuclear power plants explode and change a basic transport aspect of the game did not make the way the game played any better, but ultimately puts us in the corner with the game.

Did the rural highway, or now the real highway team exist back in 2003 when they were wanting maxis to change something again? the nam team changed the code and added a lot of things, but that's because modders hijacked the whole game, instead of working with their mods and sharing with the community, they were making a scene showing why they would needed their mods, making the company go back and change something deep in the engine.

simcity 4 is a work of art.

The nam is a great thing now, but i think it started really immaturely, and even still thinks it is the best, when really we wouldn't have the NAM if the rest of the game wasn't there. NAM should be more of a secret to build realistic looking cities than "get the nam" as a "essential' to someone that just got the game and/or is learning.

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[Nardo69 51]

simcity 4 is a work of art.

the nam is a great thing now, but i think it started really immaturely. it should be more of a secret than "get the nam"

No,Idon't agree. SimCity4 itself is not art.

It's the color palette, the brush and the and the canvas to draw a picture that might or might not be a piece of art depending on how good the user - or artist - is.

Unfortunately its code is outdated and bugged and uncompleted.

Bugged: see above.

Outdated as it could make great use of multi core cpus but doesn't because it's so old.

Uncompleted because right after the release of Rushhour at least one more EP was announced but never released. And if you played the game as much and as intense as I did you could've discovered so much things that could've been improved - region play, traffic simulators and so on.

EA left us alone after they screwed one of the best games ever. I am glad that the community is still alive and going on. Without the community I would've stopped playing SimCIty4 years ago.

Challenging vanilla isn't a hard deal. Nor a long lasting challenge.

[Mikeaut1 261]

EA left us alone after they screwed one of the best games ever. I am glad that the community is still alive and going on. Without the community I would've stopped playing SimCIty4 years ago.

Challenging vanilla isn't a hard deal. Nor a long lasting challenge.

I agree completely! I'm so glad that Simtropolis and the Sim City 4 community as a whole is still kicking and very much alive. I'm happy and greatful that the NAM team continues to make improvements every few months and update the NAM. Even though EA left this game in a bad condition, Simtropolis has made the gaming experience with SC4 infinitely better and more satisfying. Hooray for the dedicated SC4 Community for keeping one of the best games ever released alive and well!

[Tysons4 68]

You all don't understand what i am saying. Why were the early modders so uneasy towards Maxis... the 3rd ep could have been something really big and grand, but the modders with their stupid excuses of why the traffic needs to be fixed could have been enough for the ea and maxis to cut their losses and let the community deal with it

Simcity 4 is art. it is the balance of the colors and the lines on a canvas. The canvas is the region, and the colors are zones and buildings the things you put on that canvas. The lines are the networks

Simcity 4 released

company "Hold on there is more"

community: "Hey i want the nuclear plants to explode"

Company goes in and changes it because it wants the community to be happy

simcity 4 rushhour released:

company: "There is more"

community: "We want to to go back and change everything rush hour did"

And that is how the simcity franchise died.

And yes, simcity works perfectly without nam. "Get the nam" should not be the first thing said when someone has a city building problem, i feel "get the nam" is what kills true knowledge of simcity.

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[Tarkus 6,931]

yeah but see here is where simcity backed its self into a corner. the community is saying "fix this little flaw" when they could have been working on something much bigger than what the community could foresee. and when the community gets on them to make nuclear power plants explode and change a basic transport aspect of the game did not make the way the game played any better, but ultimately puts us in the corner with the game

This is a rather contentious statement to make, and makes it sounds like you are blaming the community--and specifically, the modding community--for the lack of first-party updates beyond Rush Hour. I think the real reasons there wasn't more first-party investment in SC4 is as follows:

1) The game, even with its flaws, was still quite profitable and generally well received.

2) Maxis was more or less "absorbed" entirely by EA at this point and ceased to really exist as any sort of separate company. Maxis' Walnut Creek, CA office was completely consolidated with the main EA office in Redwood Shores in February 2004 (Rush Hour came out in September 2003).

3) While SimCity 4 was indeed quite successful, another Maxis product of that time, The Sims, was eclipsing overall sales records for computer games (dethroning Myst, which had been solidly up there for a decade previously). There was a lot of carryover between the staff on the two projects, and from an economic standpoint, I'd imagine EA saw more potential for growth by shifting development toward more Sims content.

4) Will Wright was already convinced that he wasn't all that interested in pursuing further SimCity development, and wanted to try something new and started up the Spore project.

did the rural highway, or now the real highway team exist back in 2003 when they were wanting maxis to change something again?

The RHW project did not exist until mid-2005. The network it uses was an unfinished and hidden feature that was re-enabled the transit modding community sometime between 2004-2005 (I don't know the exact date, unfortunately). The re-enabling of the network was not the result of anyone begging Maxis to change anything, but rather, some rather clever modding work by some of the founders of the modding community using that which already existed.

the nam team changed the code and added a lot of things, but tha'ts because modders hijacked the whole game, instead of working with their mods and sharing with the community, they were making a scene showing why they would need their mods, making the company go back and change something deep in the engine.

For the record, the NAM Team has not modified the game's executable coding in any way, and none of our mods hack the executable. The community has generally been very respectful of EA/Maxis' intellectual property rights and the game's EULA. Everything we've done has been accomplished through modifying and creating new instances of subfile types contained within SimCity_1.dat (specifically, RUL files, Exemplars, EffDirs, SC4Paths, LTEXTs and the occasional LUA), along with accompanying textures and 3D models, all stuff EA approves.

The intent of many of those posts over at the original Maxis BBS was not part of some sort of horn-tooting, self-aggrandizing scheme on the part of the modders. Those folks wanted the game fixed, and while there are some rather heated posts in that thread, MaxisFrank actually helped answer questions which assisted in the creation of the first traffic simulator mods, which pre-dated the NAM by almost a whole year. (For the record, the first NAM release occurred on April 24, 2004.) The modding community has, since then, had sporadic but generally cordial relations with the game's developers. Paul Pedriana, the lead programmer, is in fact a member of this site and actually took the time to discuss the TE Lot crashing situation a few years back (the thread is around somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment), and also helped simmaster07 out with some of the work he was doing with DLL-based Plugins. He is, to my knowledge, still at EA and has worked on Spore and The Sims 3.

it should be more of a secret than "get the nam"

Why should it be secret? What other custom content do you think should be secret? Besides, the cat's already out of the bag--the WIndows version of the NAM is already on top of the "Top Downloads" list on the STEX by nearly a 3.5-to-1 margin, and has been for years. No one is forcing anyone to use the NAM, but a lot of folks (it's probably safe to assume a majority of ST users) do, and they in turn recommend it to those coming into the community.

I understand there are folks out there who like playing "vanilla", more or less, a category which you seem to fit. I can respect that--I did that for a couple years until I ran across ST by sheer accident and discovered the NAM for myself. However, I cannot respect the notion of accusing the entire modding community of being selfish whiners who somehow soured EA/Maxis on ever expanding the game. I really don't understand what you hope to accomplish with these sorts of statements.

-Alex (Tarkus)

  Edited March 15, 2011 by Tarkus  

[Tysons4 68]

Well, we can't talk about Simcity 5 without it getting closed, so I thought maybe we could have a discussion about how we got pushed into a corner. The game will never be perfect and I think that's because the community wanted maxis to go back and change the way the cars moved instead of letting them do their work.

Why should EA or Maxis invest time and money into something that works (at least it works for me) instead of doing other things with the game, when the community is just going to get back on them for not being perfect?

It takes a lot of time and effort to make something perfect.

I could see Simcity 4 having seasons, archologies, gobs of new features and new buildings, but instead we are still playing with the features that rush hour gave us because early modders wanted to change what is at the heart of Simcity. EA cut and run

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[TheNewTeddy 5]

I'm not certain it is logical to blame modders for EA not making a SC5. The modders did not just "complain", they built a NAM.

[_marsh_ 1,117]

I fail to see how it is the modders fault in anyway. EA just went onto things that would make more money (The Sims.) The modding community did nothing wrong nor did they make EA not want to come out with a new game.

[Mikeaut1 261]

why should ea or maxis invest time and money into something that works (at least it works for me) instead of doing other things with the game, when the community is just going to get back on them for not being perfect?

I don't see how the community is getting back at EA by developing useful mods like the NAM. In 2003 when I first started playing Sim City 4, I was quite content with the "vanilla" version, pre-ST. But I think the many mods that the community has created to enhance the SC4 experience has kept the game alive. Every game has its peak in use, and then the player puts the game on the shelf and it collects dust. SC4 is one of those games (to me) that I'll always go back to. And its definitely because of the custom content and the NAM. Again, the modders did not create the NAM and establish mods to get back at EA because Sim City 4 is imperfect, rather it overall enhances the experience and makes the game more dynamic and interesting for the player.

Here's a quote by Will Wright: (as seen on the Sim City 4 Wikipedia page):

SimCity kind of worked itself into a corner, [because] we were still appealing to this core SimCity group. It had gotten a little complicated for people who had never played SimCity. We want to take it back to its roots where somebody who had never heard of SimCity can pick it up and enjoy playing it without thinking it was really, really hard.

The developers of SC4 have advocated the creation of mods in order to enhance gameplay. I think Will Wright designed the game with the community in mind and allowed the game to be easily modified. And I'm pretty sure in the back of his head, he knew that this would be Sim City's last game. I do not believe the developers of SC4 take it as an insult; hell... the community is still growing and the game is becoming more exciting every time I play it.

[dedgren 830]

Early modders scared EA off?

???

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?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I've read some ridiculous things said about the game, EA and the community over the years, but this takes the cake. I suppose if folks like Toroca, the7trumpets, Gizmo28, GrampaAl, Ralphaelninja, Tropod, Vlakhaas, Ilive and all those other pioneers too numerous to mention had just sat back and waited a few years our friends at Electronic Arts would right now be frantically working nonstop on expansion packs for SC6.

Yeah, right. More like SC4 and this community would be deader than the proverbial doornail, and we'd all be playing Travian or Farmville.

Wide radius road and rail curves are because the NAM was. Fractional angle roads are because the NAM was. Single track rail is because the NAM was. The use of these mods, all developed in the last five years, is now ubiquitous across the CJ/MDing part of the community. Huge strides in realism like these came without any assistance from EA whatsoever- that said, there is no support to be found based on the way that they were developed for the notion that EA has somehow been intimidated off the stage by our having done things that it didn't. We in the modding community have no secrets- while the SC4 .exe remains proprietary and the exclusive realm of the now dormant EA developers, those who mod SC4 do so completely in the open with the tools EA gave us and which we have created for ourselves. There's absolutely nothing that stops EA from fixing the relatively short list of things that are truly broke in the .exe and then taking pretty much any mod that's ever been created by the community and mushing it all together and releasing SC5 (oops, forgot about SC:S) SCNext. Nothing except, that is, a business decision that the company is perfectly happy with an eight year old game that still sells "as is" (i.e., without requiring a dime of additional investment) relatively briskly, is addictive to play over the long term, attracts a steady stream of new players every year, and has proved out to have a community of fans that are by and large loyal to a fault- witness the respective fates of SC:S and the execrable twins City Life and Cities XL, all of which the vast majority of folks correctly identified as stinkers long before release.

So, did we modders screw things up by scaring EA off, or are you playing SC4 today because of us? My belief is... well, you know what it is.

David

  Edited March 15, 2011 by dedgren  

[Tysons4 68]

Suppose this scenario

Say I am EA and I'm the one that's putting money out in for a game. This game is promising to be a real life neighborhood city planner, complete with all forms of travel, and unique events and it will be the pinnacle of achievement in the video game world.

The video game company promising this comes up with a way to have engines that know to slow traffic down around schools, what time most people go to work, and come home, and since it was deemed that they would have to be a representation what was happening that the numbers would be right.

The video game company gives all the rights over with the game to sell a system that works to a major video game company and says give us the resources to make it work and we will make it work.

The video game company produces something and gives it to the man in charge of the company. He plays it and see ok, "So these numbers are real then" Knowing that they could then change it for us, and then use it for something else giving us something that we could never use for actual planning and never fix.

When the community receives the game they notice that the numbers aren't real and sees the problem and demands them fixed and changed

So the game company tries to go back to the bully and get the code, and says they really need it to make this next part work.

EA says we cannot have the masses using this code, if that is what they demand then it is over.

and we go from this:

(both built by me, completely unmodified)

to this:

Darkspore

All because people wanted it fixed when nothing was broken. The game company never would have been able to give over a tool that could be used to for the masses to plan an actual society. the game was maimed before anyone ever saw it and would have never been fixed.

We should have known to suspend disbelief and realize that the world could never be given these types of codes.

The game will never work. no matter how you tweak it. it will never be a simulation of reality (unless you know the source code,. and can get into that particular engine and tweak that variable to equal 1 instead of .73 or whatever it is.) A modified simulator will never be a solution to the problem, as you will never fix what is fundamentally flawed, and in some cases can escalate problems.

I bet if someone ever did go into the code and fix the ultimate problem with the game the world would have a revolution or something crazy.

simcity is supposed to be a game where you let your imagination run wild and I'm playing the game glad to know i never really got my calculator out and tested the numbers or dug through the .dats to see what was on the cutting room floor. and wish that the game company that gave this to us could have still been producing addons to it, instead of turning their back on us and pushing us into the corner.

and I bet simcity 4 deluxe with it's full fledged working source code requires a super computer to run, and could be employed by the military and be very very very hard to operate by teams of users to represent real locations. And we will never see this, but because we wanted it the game was kicked to the curb.

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[MandelSoft 2,769]

I remembered someone once said that you can play SimCity 4 in two ways: Playing the game or creating a city exaclty as you want. The first option is likely suited for you, since it doesn't require mods. But you can still use them. One of the greatest examples of someone who's playing the game is Haljackey. The second option is a whole different approach. Here it doesn't really matter what the simulator does, if it just looks good. Without mods and additions this wouldn't work. I've transfered from the other style to this playing style.

The NAM also added some missing links in SimCity 4. For instance, some extra Maxis Highway connection, including orthagonal x diagonal connections. These come pretty handy in dense cities. Also, most NAM items are based upon RL road setups which we thought were missing...

[deadwoods 542]

The nail's been hit on the head above; SC4 died 'cos it wasn't making enough money for EA. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't worked for a software company. If a product's not making it's revenue budget, the development team gets cut and the product slowly dies on the shelf. It happens all the time. Would there have been an EP3? Highly unlikely; only the folks who had the original would shell out for it and it would unlikely pull a larger consumer base. Given that The Sims was going gang-busters at the time the revenue stream from SC4 and thus the driver for continued development was very limited. I doubt (almost) anyone knows what conversations were had in the halls and conference rooms at EA, but it's not hard to figure it out (EA is a profit-making business after all).

I think we've all played vanilla SC4, then SC4+RH and moved on to the current SC4RH+NAM+CAM+Gig's of custom content. I recall playing SC4 (not having played the predecessors) and loving it. Then RushHour came out and it got even better. After a spell away from the game I came back last year to find the leaps forward the community had made. I'm loving playing the game now; it's brilliant. So, "to each his own". It's like the old custom content and dependencies argument, if you don't like it don't download it, but don't slag off at those who do.

  Edited March 15, 2011 by deadwoods  

[Tysons4 68]

What i am trying to say is 'get the nam' doesn't fix everything. It can change the simulator to react different ways, allows to utilization of the few things that were ripped out, but it isn't needed in order to get the game to work.

Only after you have built a complete region does the nam seem to work the best as it can be used to go back in and add turn lanes to particular streets, and rework congested commutes with real highways by using another algorithm.

But i wouldn't recommend it to someone that is just starting out or getting their feet wet. You need to know the game mechanics before getting in over your head.

And no mods should be a secret (which is why the pics of mods should be bigger in the stex), but the nam should be used as more of a finalizing tool than something needed to build regions from the ground up

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[sneakeypete 16]

So the game's just fine without the NAM? that's why sims will use a congested road that's next to a empty highway?

The new roads in the NAM might not be nessecary for building a city, particurally when your new, but using the native traffic simulator is just as bad when you get congestion, sims using streets instead of avenues etc.

and even then that's just if your trying to build a city for the challange, building something that looks good etc the NAM can help.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I agree with Dedwoods. There isn't enough revenue in the SC4 series to cover its expenses and make a profit anymore, so no further investment. Blinded by the Sims success and the sports simulations, EA will never do more than pay lip service and issue franchises to sell the original games.

I also agree with the community in general that the game is an acquired taste, and that the now generation isn't much interested in something that makes them think, even a little. If you have led someone into the game, didn't it take a lot of explanations and time to really get him addicted?

This game is not for the wrapped-in-cotton-wool generation.

And to make matters worse, when it really comes right down to it, you have to be a bit techy to really play and maintain this game. Most people these days want to use the computer as if it was a refrigerator. Put things in, take things out, don't worry about the guts.

  Edited March 15, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[MandelSoft 2,769]

only after you have built a complete region does the nam seem to work the best as it can be used to go back in and add turn lanes to particular streets, and rework congested commutes with real highways.

but i wouldn't recommend it to someone that is just starting out or getting their feet wet. you need to know the game mechanics before getting in over your head.

and no mods should be a secret (which is why the pics of mods should be bigger in the stex), but the nam should be used as more of a finalizing tool than something needed to build regions from the ground up

Using the NAM as a finishing tool? No way! I've once converted parts of my Maxis Highway network to RHW, and trust me, it's a real pain to do so. Especially when you consider that MHW interchanges are very underscaled. Besides, some basic aspects, like GLR (especially combined with roads and avenues), viaducts and underpasses are only possible with the NAM. It's a pain to convert vanilla SC4+RH-cities to NAM-cities. Try to build a custom airport in a vanilla city, since they are significantly larger than the largest airport from Maxis (also vastly underscaled). The NAM is just a part of the city, just like your character is a part of you. You can't seperate one from another.

Also, I don't use all NAM features at once. My lastest region Schellingen (which is less than a year old) uses suprisingly little of the NWM, while all freeways are RHW, including 9 freeway x freeway interchages. So if you don't want a certain NAM feature, just leave it, right?

And what do you mean that "no mods should be a secret"? Check the forums or RTFM for God's sake! You'll find a lot of answers there.

Best,

Maarten

[TekindusT 3,809]

I can udnerstand that somebody decides not to use the NAM because thinks the vanilla game is OK as it is. But for the ones we've played NAM (the modders and the users) it is now an essential part of our gameplay. The NAM makes a fairly realistic game to be a more realistic game; it includes all or nearly all the transit features that Maxis thought weren't worth to add, or simply didn't think or didn't mind about them. If I can see trams out there, why can't I have them in MY city? Not to talk about the pathfinding issues as Sneakeypete mentioned...

And yeah, as mrtnrln said; NAMing a city is can be a difficult experience (even more if you're new to the NAM) and you can be sure the city won't look the same as it had grown with the NAM. Going further, I can say that removing the Maxis highways for RHW is one of the most painful SC4-experiences you can have; but it can be a good learning.

And finally, I strongly disagree with A Nonny Moose. IMO, its not a matter of "these kids today only use the computer to watch YouTube"; because we all see very young users in this site. My point is, as I've said always I've been asked for; that we aren't enough to pay for an hypothetic SC5 or SC4 patches and expansion packs. This community is awesomely active as we can see, but compared with the millions of people who play (and pay) other games, we're simply not enough players. This is why the BATters, lotters and modders appeared; because if they, the community, didn't make stuff for the game, nobody would make it.

  Edited March 15, 2011 by TekindusT  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

And finally, I strongly disagree with A Nonny Moose. IMO, its not a matter of "these kids today only use the computer to watch YouTube"; because we all see very young users in this site. .

Kids running SC4 are a real exception, and not a rule. Take a look at all the iPad users out there, and you will see a majority of home appliance users. People with PC's and a little training are a different kettle of fish. Hopefully, kids playing SC4 won't be interested in going the hacker route, and will be well behaved computer users all their lives. I said nothing about YouTube. {I think I should sic the ETA on you.}

[Vahr 341]

Admittedly, I've been following this thread in the shadows (must be my 2008 lurk kicking in ) but I suppose I'll add things...

True, while the NAM might not be suited for everyone (learning curve might be too steep for some), its proven itself to be a great asset to the majority. I won't be repeating what's been shown above by other users, that's simply redundant and frankly I agree with their views. What I will be saying is that the NAM, as with any sort of custom content, is a set of tools on the canvas that is SC4. SC4 is a canvas, in which each individual element in the game is a tool that paints upon the canvas creating art. Art is art, people have various styles and preferences, which is perfectly natural. I have my own style, you have your style, and as long as we're happy with our own style things are good. Sure, some styles may use more "brushes" than others, for instance my CJ (among many others) heavily uses RHW as an expression of art. Is that really a bad thing? Not at all. Is not using the RHW a bad thing? Not at all either, you can make a different style of art using a different or default brush. It all depends on your personal taste and style. Some people absolutely adore my usage of RHW in my three rather successful (and dare I even say famous? ) CJs over the years. Others could care less.

SC4 is an art form. Each person has their unique styles and preferences, each just as valid. The modding community has simply provided more tools for one to express artistic creativity. Just because traditional art was pastes on stone doesn't mean that the Mona Lisa which is is painted in oil and on wood makes it "inferior" or has "ruined" the art of painting (quite the contrary in fact).

I honestly do not see a valid reason for someone to be opposed to people making more tools for other people's toolkits. If you don't need a mass spectrometer, then don't get one. Doesn't mean that others won't be willing to use it.

EDIT: Just caught this part that I missed...

i have found that it is much more fun to play the game than to mess with the settings.

Does that mean everyone agrees with that view? Many people no longer or very sporadically play the game and instead devote their time to making custom content. Some just play the game. And don't forget about the shades of gray between - I know very many people who play the game and contribute to the custom content base (including myself). I find digging in code and tweaking things and the like fun. I also find playing the game in whatever state it may be in fun as well.

[Jazzmaster 716]

I tried to play the game as vanilla, and I loved it, for a while. I saw it as complete, and I worked hard to actually understand it..

But looking back on the first time I installed and run the game (and ran my first city into a massive debt, lol) I can't imagine myself going back to a game like that. I used to want to build the biggest city, with the best ratings, and skyscrapers every which way. Nowadays, I play for the realistic aspects...I don't cram an entire city into one tile, I build metropolises over entire tiles. I add details here and there. And I factor in common sensical things (does it really make sense to have the airport right next to all those condos?) I admire those that have played the game without mods, and have maximized all of their cities. I guess in that aspect, they've 'won'..

However, I will be brutally honest, Maxis only cities look horrendous. How often do you drive down a two lane road, through massive towers of condos and skyscrapers, all of which look exactly the same?

The NAM itself is a great addition to a great idea. SC4 is a great game because you pay about $10 or so for a disc, and you get access to all of this content, which is entirely free. And in terms of realism, I don't think many of my cities would look half as good, or function half as good, without the NAM. I've been playing the game a lot lately, and many of my projects wouldn't be possible, if I wasn't allowed to simply pass that road over that highway and under that high speed rail network.

You get the gist, of an obviously stale argument..

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Once upon a time, in a past, long, long gone, I used to take pleasure in working at the assembler level of programming. That was in the days before good tools were around. We had the macro assembler, COBOL'61, FORTRAN, and ALGOL, and that was about it, my friends. Project MAC at MIT gave birth to PL/1 and a new operating system called Multics, but in the early sixties it was out of the public eye. My colleagues and I used to use the COBOL compiler to generate a program then work on the assembler output to tune and tweak and sometimes fix the application to meet the specifications. COBOL, in those days, was the compiler of the week. Let us now leap forward about fifty years.

Sometime in the early 2000s, I got a copy of SimCity 4. Rush hour had been announced but not released, and I spent some time playing it, and fooling with the Lot Editor (my hacker blood was still active), and I played around on EA's site. I got Rush Hour as soon as it came out. It was like a garden flowering. The BAT was released, and the flowers got better. Since I still had some hacker genes in my system, I made a few BATs, and then I discovered ST, and joined. So I stuck one of my BATs, the Seminary of Mota, on the STEX, and got thoroughly beaten about the ears. I still hate Bauhaus buildings. I agree with Mr. Coleridge:

"There upon the solid rock

"The dreary houses stand.

"Come. See my shining palace

"Built upon the sand."

At the time the Omnibus wasn't what it is (will be?) now. I found and worked the BAT tutorial and got some more ideas. This caused me to build my one and only Bauhaus building, The Moose Factory Bar and Grill. At the time, the thread over in General Off Topic was on its first generation.

The STEX search is working now, so if you do an author search in my screen name, you will find all my BATs, lots and maps.

I got busy with RL, and many of my programming skills were laid aside as I become more of a technical consultant and tool provider. Eventually, I stopped making tools because the community has overtaken me, and I don't much see doing that any more. I still keep a fondness for the guts of operating systems.

So now, I am retired.

I see the arguments pro and con the NAM. Well, folks, I am on the side of the angels. I want to be quite clear that I no longer play without some custom content, including my own power and water plants. They could be classed as cheats, but i don't care. I am not much into micro-management any more than I am into writing new assembly code. Looking back, I started out with no plugins, got a few from the EA site, then the exchange over there became contaminated, and I switched to here.

When the NAM came out, I tried it, and have had it ever since, always trying to keep current. Asceticism is not for me, at least not any more. I like to create cities and get them profitable as quickly as possible. I enjoy filling up a region with nice, co-operating cities, and I don't much care what the population numbers are. I am somewhere in the middle on aesthetics, because I don't much care how my streets look. I just want a nice, busy, balanced set of cities on a nice region. You see, I hardly ever zoom in on a street, and I don't use UDI, I turn it off when the first icon appears.

Over the years, I have tried out most of the big plugin packages, but I have finally settled on the NAM, NWM (hope it gets better), and SAM. I occasionally use GLR, but not often. I tried the CAM, RHW, and so on. I simply found that they were not for me. As the Prince says in Der Rosencavalier, "Chacun a son goût" (which is French for 'de gustibus non disputandum' which means there is no doubt that Gus rises in the East).

Everyone who plays this game is an artist. I agree with that, it is very creative and keeps your creative juices flowing no matter how clogged your arteries have become. I haven't made a BAT in several years now. I no longer find satisfaction in such detail work. I guess I am getting old. The younger guys, who are ever so enthusiastic, do such a good job that I don't need to.

My friend, Tyson4, your art is your art. We are glad to hear about it, and your efforts. My art is my art. Everyone is an individual. No one should try and proselytize for his style, just like no one should send out missionaries for his religion.

{/sermon on the keyboard}

[Tysons4 68]

I'm glad we can have this discussion. I hope people realize that nam is a unique tool for people who want more from the game outside of the black box that is simcity 4

For folks that understand the black box when others want to know the best way to get their sims from point a to point b, the answer isn't the nam, the game has everything it needs to do that. . and if you want something different from the 15 mass transit options of the game,or the simulator to react a different way then the nam could be right for you.

I dont know how many post i have read where someone has a question of why a route has a bunch of traffic and the answer is get the nam. there are other answers out there before modifying

  Edited March 20, 2011 by Tysons4  

[T Wrecks 10,209]

This last statement is actually quite true.

"I don't see any skyscrapers!" > "Get the Super Demand Mod."

"I always go bankrupt!" > "Get this cheat."

"I have strong pollution!" > "Download this Mega Air Cleaner."

"A road is congested!" > "Get the NAM."

"I don't get my cities over 200,000 Sims!" > "Switch to the CAM."

As far as I understood Tyson's initial intention, he was just trying to point out that sometimes getting the NAM is not the actual solution (or not 100% of it), but merely an easier way to suppress the symptoms while a fundamental playing mistake still remains, and that people often get pushed to a rather "mod-heavy" way of playing instead of being encouraged to find their own personal challenge in the game, which might well be getting along as good as possible without heavy tuning and fixing, even if the underlying mechanism is buggy and limited.

In any case, according to my experience, any mod can be used to best effect after you have mastered the basics. Your road is congested? Yes, you can get the NAM. Yes, it might fix (or suppress) the problem. But you could also learn how to adapt your transport system to the requirements of your city, you could learn how to "beat" the simulator. In doing so, you may find limits. Now depending on your taste and preferences, you either see the challenge in this, or you decide to overcome the limits and get the NAM. Just how much more will you be able to achieve if you have the basics right and possess this mighty tool!

Should people be discouraged from using the NAM? Heck, no. But I think the ideal help for a player suffering from traffic problems would consist in showing him some fundamentals and useful tricks first, and then he/she is still free to use the NAM. Instead, it is often as Tyson said: Someone steps in and says "Get the NAM", and that's it.