A number of issues

[seanwen 0]

Hi everyone. I'm rather new to this BAT stuff. I've played SC4 for a couple years now, but never brought myself to attempt the BAT tools.

My first project is sort of a hit-and-miss, some things worked and some things didn't. I chose to try to model the New Museum of Contemporary Art in NYC by SANAA. Even as an architecture student, the amount of frustration this process generates seems to make Rhino and Microstation look like a walk in the park.

Anyways, enough with the small talk. I have some questions.

First off, I work mostly in external programs, but rely heavily on the fact that gmax can import .3ds and .dxf file formats to generate my models. It's just personal opinion, but I find gmax's workflow somewhat unweildy. However, when I import most of my .3ds files, the perspective screen just goes to hell. The three elevations work fine, but the model disappears from the perspective screen, and no amount of zooming in or out or to extents solves the problem.

Honestly, this isn't much of a problem, as my models are mostly finished when I import them to gmax. But it would be nice to be able to see the model in perspective when I select the windows to light. Which brings me to the next issue. To simplify the process of lighting the windows, especially for this project, as the windows are covered by a layer of aluminum mesh, I import the windows first, select them all and light them, then import the rest of the model and run the render. When I render the windows independetly, it mostly checks out:

But when I import the rest of the model and render, a lot of the windows just disappear from the daytime view, and some holes result in the nighttime view. If anything, it seems as if the windows are entirely absent in the daytime view.

Well regardless of this, I decided, as this is my first project, I might as well see this process through to the end. So I export the rendering to the plug-in manager and open it in the Lot Editor as a landmark. Of course, the windows are still failing but now I notice something else: the building doesn't sit on the lot properly. It's way off-center, and as I chose a smaller lot, as this is an urban NYC building, I can't seem to move it around to an ideal position.

And of course, the top of the building was chopped off. I imported this into the game, and it appeared exactly like this. To top things off, the lights didn't work when I toggled the game time to evening.

Sorry for the long-winded post. If you would like for me to describe to you what did work, I would be glad to. Otherwise, advice, suggestions, solutions, tips, would all be appreciated.

As a side note:

Windows 7 64-bit

ATI Radeon HD 4250

And yes, I am one of the lucky ones. My game works on Windows 7.

All updates, including the BAT patch, have been applied.

Thank you all.

[CaptCity 4,665]

Moved to BAT - Open Discussion

[harishna 847]

I dont' know about window issue, but I don't understand why you do things separately instead of doing it as a whole in GMAX I mean the model you showing here looks pretty simple and doing it in GMAX would be rather easy...

Besides that I think some of the problems is that you need to re-fit the LODs and reset the cameras and the lights, you can do all that in GMAX in the BAT option. I think that could some of your problems.

[seanwen 0]

Forgive me, I don't know what an LOD is. And how do I move the cameras?

[harishna 847]

The LOD is a "box" into which your model will be porjected during the rendering process...so your model 3d turns into 2d...sorry for my poor explanation

Before starting I forgot to mention in my previous message, don't forget to make sure your model is properly centered...

Anyways, while n GMAX look for the little hammer on the right side, then under the B.A.T.  (this is where you render previews). there should be one option that says something like Parametershere look for something that says re-fit all LOD's, click that one and a couple of boxes should appear covering your whole model that is your LOD you can customize them if needed but given your model I don't you need to mess with them. In the same LOD menu just click "ALL" and the boxes should now turn invisible. Now I think still inside the parameters menu there should be an option that reads something like reset all cameras and lights just hit that one and voila. I am telling you the instructions from the top of my head so they may not be 100% accurate but as soon as I go home and fire GMAX I will check if they are right.

Happy Batting

[seanwen 0]

OK I see what you mean. I haven't exported it to the Lot Editor yet, but I'm assuming the rendering takes place in reference to the cartesian origin of the model space, so when I rendered it with the model off center, the model appeared in the Lot Editor off center. Did I assume correctly?

I also figured out what was wrong with the windows. The material's opacity was too low, so the windows didn't show up in the daytime view. However, for the evening render, I find that a lit window will not show through an transparent object in front of it. Is there a way to make a non-emitting translucent surface transparent to a lit window behind it? Also, if there a way to turn off shadow casting for a particular object or element?

Thanks a lot for your help, harishna.

[seanwen 0]

This is where I've gotten so far in the project. I believe I've fixed the window problem, but this only seems to work in the preview. When I actually export a rendering and upload it in the Lot Editor, the windows still do not show up. After exporting it to the game, plopping it, and changing the view to nighttime, the windows remain dark.

I have enabled the lighting on the windows, and I've realized why some of them do not light in the preview - they are behind the exterior mesh, which the rendering process does not have the capacity to interpret the way I had imagined. Anyways, all of the appropriate omnilights are installed into the interior of the building as well, and I stil see no results in the game, which is odd, since the preview renderings all show lighting, even if there are no omnilights present.

[mntoes 270]

Have you downloaded and installed the SC4 Update for bat. That is for the lighting to work in-game I think.

Hope that helps.

Mntoes

[seanwen 0]

I have applied both the game updates and the Gmax updates. No lighting works, even with downloaded content. Personally, I don't mind terribly if it doesn't quite work in the game at this point, as I imagine that this might be a compatibility issue with Windows 7. I'm certain that all of the updates were applied successfully. However, (after figuring out the difference between lighting windows using parameters and by installing omni- or target- lights), I find that the omni lights and target lights do not work in the gmax rendering preview. I've applied a myriad of naming conventions and systems to it, from nitelite_omni to niteliteomni to light_omni etc. etc., and nothing seems to work. I felt that this might be more effective, as I was told that only the omni- and target lights will shine through translucent materials. Input is appreciated. And thanks for all your help so far.

My project appears like this at this point:

I updated some of the texture files and completed work on the mechanical systems in the uppermost box.

[SimFox 800]

As a student you have a legal right to get totally free 3ds Max License from Autodesk (and now it is a 3 year license!)

You most definitely should do it! It is a shame to see you talent and skill wasted by GMAX.

As for the building itself.. I'd say you have the scale a bit off, it looks IMHO too large/tall on a last render.

Your problem with Lights are a bizzare mix of GMAX limitations and some of your mistakes/misspels and some such.

Nightwindows.

Your problem with these have nothing to do with Windows7, rather it is the way nightwindows are realized in GMAX BAT they must be in the open view. Once you put them behind ANY geometry even 100% transparent they will not show up in render. The reason is that these are not really lit up, I mean they don't emit any light as such. Instead they are mere cutouts. So if the area of cut out is "blocked" by something else you'll see that something else.

nitelites

Yep just like that, with low case letters. All the way. These work. Well if you count as working light simple pin light with no bounces. But it is just as well... There is NO WAY to get any decent looking light with GMAX. It's just that old. If you're to stay with this piece of antiquated software (btw that was NEVER EVER meant to be a rendering solution - only mode3ling one for true 3d games) your best choice would be to tinker with self illuminated materials... With a lot of work you may still achieve pretty impressive results with it. But you'll need to put a lot of painting and then some scripting effort into it. But it is theoretically doable. Illuminating scene (with any degree of realism) with lights is NOT.

[seanwen 0]

Hahah thanks. But in all honesty, I'm not really using Gmax for very much at all. I did all of the modelling for that project in Rhino, then simply imported the 3ds file. It translates almost all of the information that I apply using VRay, so most of the image-mapped textures and materials, mapping size and proportion, and material qualities are preserved. But I will definitely look into upgrading once I've got my bearings straight. To be honest, if I had my way, I would render directly out of Rhino ...

Anyways, by some miracle, the custom content lighting seems to work now. I thought I'd repatch the files, just for the hell of it, and voila! The lights on my downloaded content turned on in the game, and the omnilights rendered in the previews ... sort of.

Only the skylights work? Seriously? And there's some light leaking out from the corners, if you can tell. I checked my model though, all of my seams are tight.

Thanks a lot, everyone!

[zahrul3 471]

To prevent light leakage, set decay to Inverse Square to somewhere between 4-5, which is what happens in real life. As this makes the lights dark, set the multiplier to 5. You don't have to download custom content lights to make a building look good. If lights still leak, cover up the holes with something and make sure there are no gaps. I got this tutorial from zero7, who posted it in mntoes' BAT thread.

[SimFox 800]

Zahulk3, before you start giving advise make sure you actually know what you're talking about. What on Earth is "Inverse Square to somewhere between 4-5"? Especially given such a affirmation as "what happens in real life"... What happen in real life? Inverse square set to 4-5? And what "You don't have to download custom content lights to make a building look good" suppose to mean?

It is great to give advise to help people along. But starting doing so when you hardly understand at all what is talked about and have no expertize to share, but rather playing broken phone by trying to repeat something you have no grasp of only creates confusion and mess.

Light leakage has nothing to do with decay. Decay controls intensity of the light over distance from the source. Leakage is, on the other hand is a symptom of nothing blocking the light. In this case (like with much of the GMAX model (I know it has been modeled in Rhino, but I'm not familiar with that package) it is most likely caused by the fact that those surfaces the walls are made of are, in fact, single-sided. I know, it is a difficult concept to get you mind around and is a vestige of the times when every polygon was to be "saved", but one must mind things like this. So it has surface only from the side you look at. On the other side there is nothing... So light is free to flow. Either make all you planes/polygons double-sided or model with solids (so that all object have thickness).

[mntoes 270]

SimFox Thanks for that explanaion I often wondered about that.

[seanwen 0]

Haha OK then. I remember seeing an option to make something double-sided, but I can't remember where that dialog box was located. Could someone tell me?

Thanksssss

[seanwen 0]

I've put a hold on the New Museum project to work on transforming some of my studio projects into BATs. This is the first of these experiments:

I still can't figure out night lighting in this software, so I haven't bothered much to do it. I might just upgrade to 3ds Max after one more project and hopefully skip over some of these issues. This project was meant to be a large community center, but the program is relatively ambiguous, as it wasn't the primary focus for the proposal. Anyways, comments, as always, are appreciated. And if you have any answers related to the previous project, that would be great also

[SimFox 800]

I'd say stop what you're doing and get your self a version of 3ds Max! The main reason is that GMAX lighting model (and I speak now only of a normal "environmental" lighting) is totally incapable of working with any complex shapes with any degree of competence and even compatibility with the game it was designed for! As long as you make a basic box you'll be fine, well sort of... But the moment you stray away from that shape you'll run into serious issues with odd color splotches inconsistent lighting level etc, etc, etc... Some naive and imho blind people call that "compatibility" yet they sort of assume that anything old must by definition be compatible and right. Sad, sad story, but reality is that default lighting model was created when CG was in it proverbial infancy.

For you studio project shape is a key expressive element, and proper lighting is a key to visually deliver that element to the audience. So I'd say make a move NOW! You'll be oh so happy when you did!

Another key advantage of Max is materials it can create and render! It is light years away from GMAX capabilities.

[AndisArt 2,066]

I agree you really should switch to Max. It's going to make it so much easier and better.

And with the latest release of Bat4Max ver. 5 installation and set up couldn't be more simple. So go for it, you're a student so you can get Max 2011 for free for 3 yrs.

About the light leak issue: did you check "cast shadows" in the general parameters of the light?

[psander5 195]

I'd like to repeat the sentiments above...

Since you're an architecture student (and therefore entitled to free 3dsMax), and you already have some experience with advanced 3d modeling software then BATing in Max is certainly for you

You've already demonstrated in your previous posts that you are frustrated with the limitations of Gmax... so if your computer can handle 3dsMax you should get it ASAP!  As SimFox said, you will be so much happier with it. 

I should add, for anyone reading this who isn't an architecture student or can't get free 3dsMax; Gmax is fine for most BATers.  Some fantastic BATs can be made in Gmax, so we should be careful not to make it seem like it is completely toxic.  The differences are clear, but while 3dsMax is best for you, it's not necessarily best for everybody... I'm thinking of more casual BATers who might be scared off by all this talk of 3dsMax's superiority.  

[seanwen 0]

Haha OK. How do I safely remove the older software and all of the related files / registry keys? And can I download BAT4Max here somewhere?

[AndisArt 2,066]

 You dont have to remove GMAX, in fact you actually need to keep it. It is still required for exporting the LODs of the model to create a .model file (MAX cant do that).  This is explained in the instruction for BAT4Max. Gmax and Max are completely separate installations, so no worries about files interfering.

There's a stick thread in this forum for BAT4Max 5, get all the info there. Download link is at the end of the instructions or search for it on the STEX (Simtropolis Exchange) 

 

 

[seanwen 0]

OK I installed everything successfully, I think. Although, during installation, one of the messages in the string read something to the effect of, "your version of 3dsMax is not compatible with night lights." Or it might have read "not compatible with night windows," or something of that nature. Forgive me, I didn't give it much thought when it appeared. Will this cause problems later?

And also ... about how tall is a floor-to-floor measurement in SimCity4? I read somewhere on this forum that the height of a sim is about 3 meters tall in the game, which in my perspective, is about twice the height of an average person, which I assumed was somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.6 meters tall. But when I rendered everything and imported it into the game, that last model I made was impossibly gigantic. I'm used to creating models with the standard measurement of 12ft per floor, which comprises of 8ft of clearance and 4ft of crap (mechanical and structural systems) including the floor slab. This translates to about 3.5 or 4 meters per floor, with 2.5 meters of clearance, I'm assuming? Sorry. American. I hate U.S. Imperial also, but what am I suppose to do about it ...

[seanwen 0]

Sorry everyone, more problems ...

All four screens went to hell when I imported one of my .3ds models. I've tried zooming to extents and everything ...

Help?

[AndisArt 2,066]

The message you got about night windows is normal. It refers to the way gmax produces a nightwindow effect. It doesnt work with the new Max versions. But that's no bad news as it is very easy to simulate nightwindows with self-illuminated textures. Indeed this way you can create realistic looking nightwindows that look like you can see stuff inside the building    example 1   example 2

About the floors, I use 3.5 to 4 meters as standard. This is what looks right to me, but I wouldnt say I'm the expert with scaling. 

How did you import the model into Max and from which format? I never found a good way to import from gmax into Max. You might be better off just starting new in Max. But maybe someone else knows a way.