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A Nonny Moose

The Twentieth Century, C.E.

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Now that we have a decade of distance, it is maybe time to review what happened in that tumultuous era.

The end of the Victorian era saw the last war of 'pride and prejudice' with the War to End All Wars.  Unfortunately, Uncle Willy's little skirmish turned into a general European conflict that wasn't really resolved until 1945.  Someone, Churchill I think, said that the Treaty of Versailles was not a peace treaty but a truce for twenty years.  Whoever it was, was right.  1917 to 1939 was just a little over two decades, and then they were at it again, dragging all of us in due to international commitments.

Of course, the United States managed to stay on the sidelines as a more than interested observer and take a few profits until they got a hit below the belt by the Japanese.  Getting your main Pacific Naval Base destroyed tends to concentrate the political will wonderfully.  An attack on the United States after the long peace, and with the pacifistic attitude of many citizens was like waking up a sleeping king cobra.  Yamamoto was right when he said that they had wakened the sleeping giant.

After 1945 the world settled down into rebuilding and into the fulfilling of all those wants that the Great Depression and the rationing of the Great War had suppressed.  The war plants converted to consumer goods very quickly and the great inflationary consumer craze started, and continues today.  I think this is when capitalism got hold of the bit, and has had it in its teeth ever since.  The way things are now, we need a new bridle.

In the aftermath of the surrender of the axis powers, little or not-so-little brush wars popped up.  Notably the unpleasantness in Korea which was the work of Joe Stalin and friends who were strong then on spreading international Bolshevism (you can't call what they had communism after the death of Trotsky).  As with all great mistakes, the Bolsheviks had an upswing before the final dissolution.  You can't make production on paper and with five year plans no one believes in.  (A Pole I know said that if the Russians had a five-year plan on the Gobi, there would soon be a shortage of sand.)  To make it worse, many of the top party members were corrupt and corrupting.  Stalin was very paranoid and killed off any possible rivals and left only the junk at the bottom of the barrel.  Their system might have worked if there had been any honest men in charge and if the people had accepted ownership of the kernel of the system.

There were little flare ups here and there, including the Argentinean claim to the Ilos dos Statos in the southern Atlantic.  The Brits put paid to that idea and kept the Falkland Islands.  The biggest problem was the Indo-Chinese peninsula, where the British, who had control, gave it back to the French who couldn't control themselves let alone another people.  After the massacre at Dien Bien Phu, the Americans became more and more involved until their humiliating defeat and withdrawal.  You can't win a war when the native population wants to kill all of your people and has the means to do it.  And, of course, they committed the usual atrocities on the corpses to emphasize their point.  This affronted the morals of the Americans who have always been taught respect for the dead.  In this part of the world, this is nonsense when the corpse was an enemy.

And so, now we come to the Petroleum Wars.  When their great friend, Saddam Hussein of Iraq turned on his neighbor and invaded, the United States had a policy reversal, and kicked the usurper out in Desert Storm.  Unfortunately, the Americans didn't have the stomach at that time to continue into Iraq and clean up once and for all.  They had the Iraqis on the ropes and chickened out.  The result was the second American-Iraqi entanglement, which continues today.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, al Quaeda, a group of Islamic criminals, managed to take out the heart of New York city by hijacking aircraft and flying them into the buildings of the World Trade Center.  It is regrettable that the Americans had George W. Bush as president at the time because he was a wimp, controlled by his entourage.  He was also mushroom managed by his intelligence people, and they did, indeed, feed him lots of horse pucks.  This not only resulted in the aforementioned adventure in Iraq, but also the world wide conflict with the Islamic world which nobody wanted, no one still wants.  At this time, the anti-Islamic prejudice in the U.S. is very strong, and I lay this whole mess at the feet of George W.

It was perceived that the Taliban, the ruling party in Afghanistan, were sheltering the Al Quaeda group, and they were committing archeological atrocities in the name of Islam as well.  The world was ripe for the NATO intervention in Afghanistan, even though centuries of attempts to do anything with these peoples have failed.  There are several separate 'nations' in Afghanistan, and they will never unite, except against a foreign invader.  We can never win and should get out as gracefully as possible.  The most powerful force in the Victorian British Empire couldn't force the Khyber Pass, and it has always been so.  Even the Russians failed in the north.  So, looking at history, what on earth are we doing in Afghanistan, natural resources of the country notwithstanding?  This is a capitalist war, and may be the final wound in the present capitalist system.


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So...thanks to one wrong turn by Leopold Lojka, the hapless chauffeur of the Archduke's motorcar, we got the chain of the First World War, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Second World War, the Holocaust, the Cold War, and the replacement of the exhausted British Empire with the American Hegemony as world leader. There could be no virulent rise of a petty Corporal Hitler and the rest without the European pot having been so stirred by the Black Hand of Bosnian Serb Gavrilo Princip, who, believing his earlier plan foiled and abandoning the assassination attempt to grab a bite to eat, couldn't believe his luck when he stepped out of the delicatessen to see Franz Ferdinand's motorcade mistakenly backup and double-back right in front of him and his waiting pistol. Princip would later sit in an Austrian jail cell unknowing and unrepentant over the bloodshed unleashed. Forget Hiroshima, Einstein's bus seat, Stalingrad, or Dallas's grassy knoll...it's the Moritz Schiller Delicatessen in Sarajevo that was the scene of the most pivotal point in 20th Century history.

All those time-travelling sci-fi movies might easily change history by just going back to 1914 and telling driver Lojka to turn the other way!

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Originally posted by: Duke87

You're leaking over into the 21st century there.

And someone please tell me that I'm not the only one who thinks this BCE/CE business is stupid.

quote>

What does that mean?


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the only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes.

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The Gregorian calendar (which most of the world now uses) was designed to have the zero point at about the birth of Jesus Christ. As such, the negative years are suffixed by "BC" ("Before Christ") and the positive years are suffixed by "AD" ("Anno Domini", Latin: "in the year of our lord").

Well, at some point, someone decided that this was politically incorrect due to its religious connotations, and came up with a more secular alternative: BCE ("Before the Common Era") for the negative years and CE ("Common Era") for the positive years. And, like all terminology changes which are pushed merely for the sake of political correctness, it's stupid.


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If you can read this, you deserve a cookie.

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Originally posted by: Duke87

The Gregorian calendar (which most of the world now uses) was designed to have the zero point at about the birth of Jesus Christ. As such, the negative years are suffixed by "BC" ("Before Christ") and the positive years are suffixed by "AD" ("Anno Domini", Latin: "in the year of our lord").

Well, at some point, someone decided that this was politically incorrect due to its religious connotations, and came up with a more secular alternative: BCE ("Before the Common Era") for the negative years and CE ("Common Era") for the positive years. And, like all terminology changes which are pushed merely for the sake of political correctness, it's stupid.

quote>

I refuse to use BCE/CE, and it does actually irritate me when I see it. So you're not the only one there, Duke. 3.gif

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    "This is the sort of pedantic nonsense up with which I shall not put." Winston Spencer Churchill

    When you guys get through arguing over the terminology of the histoical eras, how about some discussion of the thread topic?

    I am completely neutral about BC/AD BCE/CE because I am an agnostic with Christian leanings.  However, when something is in common usage, I use it.


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    Not sure what this topic about...but very well written post! 4.gif Makes you think about what is in the future and what will happen, however a few things are going to happen no matter what..

    - Petroleum wars

    - Superpower shift from the US to ? (I'm thinking either Japan, EU or China)

    A shift from capitalism might also happen, but unlikely. The petroleum war is going to happen, there is no way we can completely stop our dependence on oil in the next 40 years, I just hope the war ends well in the end, because certain doom will happen anyways when oil is too expensive to buy anymore.


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    i think this sums it up

    "I don't know what weapons will be used in world war three, but in world war four people will use sticks and stones."

    -Albert Einstein


    our world is a simcity

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    Environmental Revolution and Space Exploration, the only really good things in the history of 20th century. As about the 21st century, my signature tells my hopes.


    "If you try to please everybody, you often times end up pleasing nobody, especially yourself. When somebody offers to do a favor for free, like making a mod for SimCity 4, you shouldn't be overly critical of something generously given to you. In other words, you shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth." - Twilight Sparkle after playing SimCity

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    Originally posted by: Duke87

    The Gregorian calendar (which most of the world now uses) was designed to have the zero point at about the birth of Jesus Christ. As such, the negative years are suffixed by "BC" ("Before Christ") and the positive years are suffixed by "AD" ("Anno Domini", Latin: "in the year of our lord").

    Well, at some point, someone decided that this was politically incorrect due to its religious connotations, and came up with a more secular alternative: BCE ("Before the Common Era") for the negative years and CE ("Common Era") for the positive years. And, like all terminology changes which are pushed merely for the sake of political correctness, it's stupid.

    quote>

    Thank you, I must have missed that memo.

    I guess they figured no one knew what AD meant anymore.


    Stupidity Should Always be Painful

     

    the only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes.

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    When I studied History at school, I liked very much making timelines, and I realized one thing: The more I was approaching to the 21st century, the faster things happened. I don't know if we gave more importance to more recent things or the world and my country were changing faster, but I always lacked space when studying the 20th century. During the 17th and 18th centuries, important, really important things, happened every two or three years. During the second half of 20th century, every year we had two or three relevant happenings to write up.

    I've always thought that the 20th century has been the century of the extremes. Humans have been able to do abominable things like the Holocaust and the most cruel dictatorships ever and, at the same time, creating the Internet or landing in the Moon. We've seen bloody massacres and cures for many diseases. Definately, it's been a "funny" century for historians.

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    We also went from almost no moter vehicles to  super hiways in about 50 years.

    Is it ok to blame Airconditioning for the desolving of neighborhoods?


    Stupidity Should Always be Painful

     

    the only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes.

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    Originally posted by: TekindusT

    I realized one thing: The more I was approaching to the 21st century, the faster things happened. I don't know if we gave more importance to more recent things or the world and my country were changing faster, but I always lacked space when studying the 20th century. During the 17th and 18th centuries, important, really important things, happened every two or three years. During the second half of 20th century, every year we had two or three relevant happenings to write up.quote>

    Part of it is simply that more recent events are more relevant to people's memories, so they tend to be given more weight.

    Although, there is a valid point that as time goes by, history moves faster. This is because both world population and technological advancement have, thus far, been following exponential growth curves. When there are more pople around, more stuff happens. When there is more advanced technology, it becomes qucker and easier to do stuff. 

    An interesting note: the idea of thinking about the future ("someday, we'll have the abilty to...") didn't really exist prior to the industrial revolution. Before that, people studied history, but nobody was thinking about what would come next. As far as your average joes were concerned, they always had been farmers (or whatever) using such and such methods and always would be. It took until progress started happening fast enough for things to be noticably different within one person's lifetime before everyone realized that society, technology, etc. were advancing and that we had better things to look forward to, not just more of the same.


    If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.
    If you can read this, you deserve a cookie.

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    Originally posted by: Duke87

    Originally posted by: TekindusT

    I realized one thing: The more I was approaching to the 21st century, the faster things happened. I don't know if we gave more importance to more recent things or the world and my country were changing faster, but I always lacked space when studying the 20th century. During the 17th and 18th centuries, important, really important things, happened every two or three years. During the second half of 20th century, every year we had two or three relevant happenings to write up.quote>

    Part of it is simply that more recent events are more relevant to people's memories, so they tend to be given more weight.

    Although, there is a valid point that as time goes by, history moves faster. This is because both world population and technological advancement have, thus far, been following exponential growth curves. When there are more pople around, more stuff happens. When there is more advanced technology, it becomes qucker and easier to do stuff. 

    An interesting note: the idea of thinking about the future ("someday, we'll have the abilty to...") didn't really exist prior to the industrial revolution. Before that, people studied history, but nobody was thinking about what would come next. As far as your average joes were concerned, they always had been farmers (or whatever) using such and such methods and always would be. It took until progress started happening fast enough for things to be noticably different within one person's lifetime before everyone realized that society, technology, etc. were advancing and that we had better things to look forward to, not just more of the same. quote>

    It does move faster. Before modern technology  things tended to stay regionalized.

    Not to long ago Popes and Kings died unnoticed by most of the  world for years.


    Stupidity Should Always be Painful

     

    the only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes.

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    I think we are approaching the idea that modern communication is making the world speed up.  This is a fact.  Because of our instantaneous communication ability, and the wide spread multiple record capability, our knowledge base is expanding faster than ever.  It is not that long ago that books were produced by copyists laboring in monasteries, and these were restricted to learnèd libraries and often controlled by very conservative church people.

    The invention of the printing press was the first crack in the dam of church control on knowledge, and it occurred in The Holy Roman Empire in 1441 (China was about a millennium ahead on this).  After Gutenberg, things began to pick up in pace, but the arrival of the twentieth century also gave rise to inventors like Edison, and engineers like Brunel (both of whom were products of the nineteenth century).  With Tesla's invention of alternating current and the methods of transmission, and with Einstein's Photoelectric Effect (1905), we were poised to be off and running in physics, and practical applications.  The result is the almost instantaneous communication systems we now enjoy, which will continue to be enhanced, even unto the fourth generation.

    Now, if only our ethical systems can catch up with our scientific ability, we may yet survive the coming apocalypse of the capitalist system.


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    The teacher opens the door but the student must enter himself. - Ancient Chinese Saying

    Every minute of hate in which one indulges oneself is sixty seconds of happiness lost.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent. -- Victor Hugo
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    Variations pf Photoelectric Effect are responsible for digital photography,copier and laser printer technology.

    all significant advances back in the day.


    Stupidity Should Always be Painful

     

    the only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes.

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    Among other things, the paper on the Photoelectric Effect led to the Quantum Theory, and that poor cat forever doomed to ride the wave front of probability to the end of time.  All kidding aside, the Einstein paper led to modern electronics, and where would we be without transistors and their much miniaturized successors the integrated circuit.  As much as Newton's Laws of Motion, Einstein's discovery has birthed a wave of new physics, aided and abetted by Shroedinger, with whom he disagreed.  Einstein is quoted as "God doesn't play at dice, but He is very subtle."


    Beware: Emancipated user.  No Windoze for me.
    The teacher opens the door but the student must enter himself. - Ancient Chinese Saying

    Every minute of hate in which one indulges oneself is sixty seconds of happiness lost.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent. -- Victor Hugo
    If you always do what you've always done, you'll mostly get what you've always got.
    JohnNewSig.gif
    "We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly

    Come join us at the Moose Factory

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    I think you very accurately adjusted the twentieth century to start at World War I and end at 9/11. I'd say thats were most people feel the century as an "era" occured. very much like you could say the 16th century started in 1492. Or i could be making all this up but it seems logical to me haha.

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    The 20th Century AD was spectacular. I wish I could travel in time to go to a speak easy in NYC.


    Ocram's Razor: Though "more things shouldn't be used than are necessary," they're just too fun to pass up! Expect many verbose arguments from me. I will try to write abstracts before or short summaries after from now on.

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    Originally posted by: Gnarologist

    I think you very accurately adjusted the twentieth century to start at World War I and end at 9/11. I'd say thats where most people feel the century as an "era" occured. very much like you could say the 16th century started in 1492. Or i could be making all this up but it seems logical to me haha.quote>

    Actually, I had to be careful to not include things that I considered to be of the nineteenth century such as the Boer War.  That little brush fire started the crumbling of the British Empire if you look at it in the right light.  As for the century's end, 9/11 was the last major event, and the rest of the century just petered out on its hype. 

    Much happened as a result of 9/11 that people will express distaste over in a few decades, for example the formation of the Homeland Security Agency.  HS is turning out to be nothing more than a set of agents co-opted from the other security agencies into a sort of GESTAPO, American style.  They were created by a knee-jerk reaction by reactionaries who didn't trust the present set of security people, and the result has been unpleasant, to say the least.

    {rant}

    Another thing that happened that affects me directly is that, as a result of a lot of false accusations, the once undefended border between Canada and the U.S. has become a line of armed camps.  It is stupid, but I now have to have a passport to enter the U.S. and an American has to have one to get back into his own country.  The impact on relations has caused a general cooling off that neither sets of citizenry deserved.  To get a passport, I have to go through several bureaucratic hoops, fill out forms, submit documents, and pony up $85 which gives me a document that lets me cross that once open border.  Passports are only good for three years, and you have to do the whole thing all over again, there are no renewals.  Well, I stopped going to Wilson, N.Y. on my boat when Ronnie Regan put in his landing tax of $25, so if you think that I am going to pay $85 to do something for a limited time that I always did for free in the past, you have another think coming.  America doesn't get my tourist dollar any more.  Anyway, I will not submit to passing through any of the Checkpoint Charlies that have been set up on the American side of the border.

    {/rant}

    Anyway, the twentieth century is definitely defined by the Great War (1914 - 1945), the subsequent clashes with the Soviets and their sycophants, and finally the rise of international terrorism.  I think that puts it in one sentence.

    Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

    The 20th Century AD was spectacular. I wish I could travel in time to go to a speak easy in NYC.quote>

    You mean that there is an underlying scofflaw in you?  The twentieth century was long, dark and ugly.  Prohibition in the United States and Canada was the chapter that set up organized crime and injected much money into that corporation.  Time to be a little more objective, my lad.


    Beware: Emancipated user.  No Windoze for me.
    The teacher opens the door but the student must enter himself. - Ancient Chinese Saying

    Every minute of hate in which one indulges oneself is sixty seconds of happiness lost.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent. -- Victor Hugo
    If you always do what you've always done, you'll mostly get what you've always got.
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    Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

    The 20th Century AD was spectacular. I wish I could travel in time to go to a speak easy in NYC.quote>

    If I time-travelled to 1916 from where I'm sitting right now I would see hungry people taking grapes from the grapevines. If I did this to 1938 I'd see fascist (Francoist) troops passing by. If I did this to 1945 I'd see hungry people holding ration coupons and if I went to 1962 I would see everything covered by water due a flooding. If I did this to 1978 I'd see a crazy residential development that didn't respect anything. 

    Seems it hasn't been a great century. Be sure I'd prefer lurking...

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    Personally, I must admit that this thread is really, REALLY a good one and I am truly impressed and inspired by everyones' - especially Noony Moose's knowledge - of history and other areas that all therefore contribute to a complex understanding of events, timeline and developments, not only political, but also socio- ethical. Bravo, as this is holding a long expected quality...

    lucky7

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    Originally posted by: lucky7

    Personally, I must admit that this thread is really, REALLY a good one and I am truly impressed and inspired by everyones' - especially Noony Moose's knowledge - of history and other areas that all therefore contribute to a complex understanding of events, timeline and developments, not only political, but also socio- ethical. Bravo, as this is holding a long expected quality...

    lucky7quote>

    I am sure the other posters and I thank you for your comment.  If you have anything to contribute don't be shy.  Post it, and well enjoy it as much as you have enjoyed our stuff.  I am a bit of a history buff, as you can tell, and I am in late middle age, so I've been around a bit.


    Beware: Emancipated user.  No Windoze for me.
    The teacher opens the door but the student must enter himself. - Ancient Chinese Saying

    Every minute of hate in which one indulges oneself is sixty seconds of happiness lost.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent. -- Victor Hugo
    If you always do what you've always done, you'll mostly get what you've always got.
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    Originally posted by: A Nonny Moose

    To get a passport, I have to go through several bureaucratic hoops, fill out forms, submit documents, and pony up $85 which gives me a document that lets me cross that once open border. Passports are only good for three years, and you have to do the whole thing all over again, there are no renewals.quote>

    47.gif

    Our passports are good for ten years (five for minors), and are renewable.

    You've got us beat on the fee, though. Ours is $165.

    That said... I agree that "closing" the border was uncalled for.

    Apparently, ca. 2000, things were on track to have the border control points removed complely, allowing Schengen-style movement between the US and Canada. Then 9/11 happened and we got all paranoid about security.


    If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.
    If you can read this, you deserve a cookie.

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    Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

    We also went from almost no moter vehicles to  super hiways in about 50 years.

    Is it ok to blame Airconditioning for the desolving of neighborhoods?

    quote>

    I finished a book last week called It's A Sprawl World After All by Douglas E. Morris. While the objective of the book is to outline the suspicion that suburbia is to blame for, among other things, the destruction of neighborhoods and community as well as the rise in violent crime, it kinda went all over the place. But it made sense to me. The author was really trying to sell it though and in the end it became a "don't shop at places like Wal-Mart." kinda message (which isn't a bad idea btw.)

    Even still, I realized that I do in fact live in a world of strangers but I'm still polite around people who's names I don't know. The book led on to other notions that people who don't know eachother can't possibly respect one another. Malarky.

    As far as the 20th Century goes, technology has already put many a man's foot in the grave. Suppose we somehow instantly lost all our technological ability, right down to gasoline powered vehicles. People don't know how to hunt or farm anymore so without all the trucks carting food in from every corner of the globe, there would be a lot of hungry mouths to feed where there has traditionally been very few. Want a cheesburger? Better slaughter a cow. While you're at it, better find 60 or so of your friends to help eat that cow because without a freezer, the meat isn't going to keep.

    I think the 20th Century has made us all more suseptable to annihilation in more ways than just nuclear armageddon.

     But people survive. They always survive. And in the future I think we may find a way back to survival of the fittest.

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    Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

    Is it ok to blame Airconditioning for the desolving of neighborhoods?

    quote>

    That works.  Back in the "old days" when we had no airconditioning, people hung out on their porches and could chat with the people strolling by.   Once A/C became common, people had to actually knock on the door to chat with a neighbor and many people didn't bother.

    I spent the first 8 years of my life in a neighborhood with porches and no A/C.   Things were more neighborly then; I can still remember who lived in which house on the street.    but I also passed out from heat exhaustion more often.

    As far as the 20th Century goes, technology has already put many a man's foot in the grave. Suppose we somehow instantly lost all our technological ability, right down to gasoline powered vehicles. People don't know how to hunt or farm anymore so without all the trucks carting food in from every corner of the globe, there would be a lot of hungry mouths to feed where there has traditionally been very few. quote>

    Many people these days, myself including, get food from the distribution system, not directly from the source.  I have no recollection of ever eating wild game.   I do buy things from the local produce stands but the majority of my food comes from the supermarkets.   As for living off the land, not only do I not know how to do it, the land around here no longer contains enough resources to feed the people in the area.   Too many buildings where farmland once was.

    The closest I've come is reading Jean M Auel's "Earth's Children" series.  According to those books, you can make good biscuits from cattail roots.  Well, I know where to find those.  Just climb into the nearest storm water retention pond and dig them up.  We have such ponds all over the place.  The cattails are flourishing there but there are nowhere near enough of them to feed the surrounding population.

    Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

    It does move faster. Before modern technology  things tended to stay regionalized.

    Not to long ago Popes and Kings died unnoticed by most of the  world for years.quote>

    Good point.  There were huge leaps in technology in the 20th century that changed life considerably.   Without the microchip, we wouldn't even be talking with each other right now.    One hundred years ago, random people on different continents couldn't have a conversation like this.    It has, in many ways, made the planet seem smaller. 

    Back then, things did tend to stay regionalized.  The shift from that to a global environment is major and we are only at the beginning of it.


    We can inspire others through witness so that one grows together in communicating. But the worst thing of all is religious proselytism, which paralyzes: “I am talking with you in order to persuade you.” No. Each person dialogues, starting with his and her own identity. The church grows by attraction, not proselytizing.    - Pope Francis

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    Originally posted by: Muck308

    As far as the 20th Century goes, technology has already put many a man's foot in the grave. Suppose we somehow instantly lost all our technological ability, right down to gasoline powered vehicles. People don't know how to hunt or farm anymore so without all the trucks carting food in from every corner of the globe, there would be a lot of hungry mouths to feed where there has traditionally been very few.quote>

    That's a pretty broad statement to make.  I know how to hunt, farm and how to live off the land as do many, many other people I know plus many, many more I don't know.

    Originally posted by: Muck308

    Want a cheesburger? Better slaughter a cow. While you're at it, better find 60 or so of your friends to help eat that cow because without a freezer, the meat isn't going to keep.quote>

    Yes it can be kept for long periods of time without having to freeze it.  All you have to is smoke it and turn it into beef jerky.  A very simple process to do.  I would strongly suggest everyone get these very basic human skills of growing food, hunting and fishing in case something does happen that throws humanity back to the stone age.  Because if people don't, they won't survive long at all.  Just a thought2.gif

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    Originally posted by: blade2k5

    Originally posted by: Muck308

    As far as the 20th Century goes, technology has already put many a man's foot in the grave. Suppose we somehow instantly lost all our technological ability, right down to gasoline powered vehicles. People don't know how to hunt or farm anymore so without all the trucks carting food in from every corner of the globe, there would be a lot of hungry mouths to feed where there has traditionally been very few.quote>

    That's a pretty broad statement to make.  I know how to hunt, farm and how to live off the land as do many, many other people I know plus many, many more I don't know.quote>

    Yet many still do not. These would be the folks who panic like mad and kill eachother over a snickers bar... should something so catastrophic actually happen.

    Personally, I've never hunted, but I can grow my own food. But to do so I would need seeds and right now I send away for those.

    Originally posted by: Muck308

    Want a cheesburger? Better slaughter a cow. While you're at it, better find 60 or so of your friends to help eat that cow because without a freezer, the meat isn't going to keep.quote>

    Yes it can be kept for long periods of time without having to freeze it.  All you have to is smoke it and turn it into beef jerky.  A very simple process to do.  I would strongly suggest everyone get these very basic human skills of growing food, hunting and fishing in case something does happen that throws humanity back to the stone age.  Because if people don't, they won't survive long at all.  Just a thought

    quote>

    Agreed. Some skills should never go out of style.

    So... what'cha doing come the fall of society? Mind if I drop by? I see myself growing weary of green beans and broccoli. 12.gif

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    An interesting discussion considering the high-flown idea that started this thread, we are now down to the necessities of life, and how sustainable they are in our society.  Well, I grew up in a farming community, and I live in the middle of farming country.  I can even hunt with snares and a bow if I have to, but I would have a rough time getting around, especially if I could not find something to substitute for the pharmaceuticals that keep me alive.  For people who know how to hunt with firearms, I don't know what you would do when you ran out of ammo.  I know how to fire-harden a spear, too.

    I expect if our current society fell, I would live about a month or so after my pharmaceuticals ran out.  I wouldn't be doing much moving about because of my arthritis but my asthma would either kill me directly or cause a heart attack when my blood pressure went through the roof.  On the other hand, one could have a cerebral accident.  Common in my family.


    Beware: Emancipated user.  No Windoze for me.
    The teacher opens the door but the student must enter himself. - Ancient Chinese Saying

    Every minute of hate in which one indulges oneself is sixty seconds of happiness lost.
    Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent. -- Victor Hugo
    If you always do what you've always done, you'll mostly get what you've always got.
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    "We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly

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