nybt-forum-threads PBGV's BAT Thread

[PBGV103 729]

Actually I'd be running Windows through the Mac OS, but that doesn't really matter. The difference in price is still roughly the same whether I go windows or mac. SSDs still cost $1200+ and the two cpus along with the mother board will cost roughly $1400, then theres around $300-400 for ram and the gpu that's about the same, plus all the misc. stuff like dvd drives, power supply, cooling, and the case. Plus, if I build my own computer I'll get a terrible warranty, and no pc out there that I've found, besides custom built one's are nearly as powerful as the mac pro.  I could always dumb down my models but that would be almost disgraceful.  Anyway, even if I could get a computer as good as the mac pro for less, my parents still wouldn't pay for it and I'm still a student, which means I don't have time for a job.  Once again I'm NOT trying to sell anything here!  I'm only trying get support from people so that I can continue BATing.  If you'd rather I leave I could do that too.  Even if I was selling my work, I don't think there's anything wrong with that after I've spent 150+ hours working on it over the past few months.  Just because I post on this site doesn't give everyone the "right" to have full access to all of my hard work.  You do realize that there are thousands of people who visit this site and download content with out sharing their own or even saying a single work in any of the forums.  Now I expected to give my hundreds of hours of hard work away for nothing, and when I ask for support I'm accused of coercion and fraud?  Does that seem right to you?  I've been telling you all that if I had the right computer I would upload my BATs for anyone to download, but as it is now my current computer isn't working for me and there's no other way to fix the situation than to ask you all for support.  I'm sorry that it upsets you, but if you want me to continue BATing I'll have to get a new computer one way or another.  It's really no different than this site's STEX Collections DVDs.  They are used to raise donations to support the servers that run this site.  The money that I'm asking for would be used to support the computer that renders my BAT's.  It's that simple.

I'm sorry you hate me so much for this...

[PBGV103 729]

By the way Hanson did the EXACT same thing a while back and no one attacked him for it...

I guess this means I'll probably stop BATing until I can afford a computer that's made for CADD, which most likely means when I'm out of Virginia Tech in 5-6 years.  Maybe this site will still be around then...

[T Wrecks 10,210]

How about simply asking someone to render the BAT for you?

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

I understand you PBVG103, all that hard work on your bats. I do believe we should support all the baters period.

About that gambling part, it's free, and I'm not trying to be greedy, I do really need a computer if you want to see Aaron Graham to finish making his apartments and to continue making more bats. If I was to win I would really help you out PBVG103 to get a new computer, I don't really need a really powerful computer, just something that can make me bat again. lately NYBT baters has been going though a lot, down to compter problems, rendering issues, and night lights issues. We are trying to get out of the storm, once we get out we should be even stornger.

[psander5 198]

I wasn't going to say anything because I sympathise with your situation even if I don't agree with your action, but since you so strongly defended your right to withhold your BATs I think it's worth pointing out a few things that haven't yet been mentioned:

BATing is a hobby, and any amount of time you put into it is ultimately your choice. As with most hobbies, the compensation you get for your efforts usually comes with the pleasure of the pass-time, and at the end with a sense of having achieved something and a few pats on the back from fellow hobbyists.  I understand that your motives aren't profit, so it's not fair to question how highly you value that community appreciation, but it might help explain some of the ill feeling that arises when you appear to differentiate yourself from the rest of us, for whom it is quite sufficient.  

There's also something else to consider.  I wouldn't object to you selling your 3d models commercially (and no-one could)... there are plenty of outlets for that, but in order to make your .SC4Model you probably used, somewhere along the way, someone else's hard work and knowhow (shared freely with the community) to get there.  Hypothetically, that person or those people could quite justifiably object to their endeavours being used to garner funds, whether by donation or by fee.  I'm not one of those people, so it's not for me to object directly, but I would certainly support them if they did.  

The comparison to the STEX collections isn't quite the same.  Without the STEX or Simtropolis (or other exchanges and forums for that matter) we wouldn't have the facility to develop and share our hobby.  Frankly, without your BAT we're just down one in a thousand.  Also, the majority of items on the STEX collections as I understand it are available freely on the STEX.  So, with respect, it's not the same. 

I'm afraid with things like this you have to go all-in, one way or another.  Either you make the sharing of BAT's as a community, completely free, or you turn it into a market place... which I think would even upset the people at Maxis/EA (perhaps even in law - I haven't read the EULA in a while), let alone the people who play the game.  Regardless of your motives and the semantics, it still equates to the same thing to the general SC4 player. 

I presume when you made your original post on this matter that you were fully prepared for how the community might react.  It's up to the individual as to whether they respond to your plea, but considering that most users of these forums are either kids, students or low-disposable-income adults, I doubt many will be willing or able to respond and to potentially start us on a slippery slope to commercialism. 

Sorry to sound so harsh.  I tried not to.  You clearly have a talent for modeling.  Your BAT is up there at the top end of the quality scale, so it would be a shame if you couldn't find a way of producing more of them.  Sometimes though you just have to accept your limitations.  My own PC isn't great at exporting large models, so I work with it and try to scale down my ambition...  there are lots of massive things I would like to make in an ideal world.  It can still be just as pleasurable to make small things.

T Wrecks' advice is good advice.  It's worked for people in the past. There always other ways we can help each other out when we get stuck.

I hope this whole thing doesn't put you off BATing. 

Good luck in any case. 

PS: Try not to see any of this as an 'attack' as you put it.  Certainly, on my part, it's not meant that way. You've dipped your toes in some hot water here.  It's always likely to provoke a range of responses. 

[gutterclub 2,729]

I was going to write something but Psander5 pretty much nailed it on the head.

[Hanson784 165]

Paul, you don't have to stop BATing. No one is attacking you for trying to make money. The economy is rough anyway and an entrepreneurial pursuit can help as a side income or fill in the gaps that a part time job may leave.

Though, selling BAT's is realistically not going to produce the needed amount for a new computer.

I make more from my ads than I do from my Donation Downloads- and I don't make much from my ads every month. Just enough to keep the NYCJ blog up and running. I decided to test out selling BAT's a while ago but when I realized the demographics of my visitors figured it wasn't the best way to raise short term funds. Also, if EA got wind of someone selling .SC4 files in large quanities they would either take legal action or copy the idea and implement it to all of their downloadable content (pay to play has already happened to Sims 3 content which I have mixed feelings about)

Instead, if you want to make money from you work you should consider selling your .3DS/ .MAX files at 3D commerical marketplaces like Turbosquid and 3D Export. I'll send you a PM about it because I don't want to go off topic with a discussion of 3D market economics but I'll just say ever since moving to New York I've been thinking of selling more of my models there because I've seen better returns from making money off of a technical, creative talent. Some of the buyers who have a bit more funds like to support their favorite 3D artists and buy nearly everything they make, similar to an art collector.

You can also have someone render the model for you that has a faster computer, I know some BATer's have done this who have older/ slower computers.

270 Park Avenue looks fantastic BTW, excellent work!. I'll be downloading it soon.

[SimFox 804]

Well not getting into the whole bad or good to sell stuff, there are couple of things worth keeping in mind.

You can sell your *.max model (again ONLY if it was not created with Student version of 3ds Max). But you legally CAN NOT sell your SC4Model model. It is illegal according to the license of SC4Bat that creates the Model File. And what you do is actually selling rather than simply asking for donation. As you exchange your model for a certain, fixed amount of money. Model that is not available any other way.

Well, now to the the very reason behind it - new powerful computer.

The specs Apple suggested you are way-way out of line! You should never believe anything Apple says - ever - it is a biggest cult in the world brainwashing people into customers. I do own few apple devices plus am familiar with their marketing strategy. So I do know what I'm saying.

If you want good render computer you don't need many of the things you've listed in the specs. For instance SSD is a total waste of money. And so is Dual CPU setup. I mean it all nice, but totally cost ineffective. It's like buying Ferrari for your weekly grocery shopping ride. Yes it will get you to supermarket, but would it be worth it? Besides it (like SSD) wouldn't have enough space to hold all your vegies and some such.

Long story short all you need is good 4-6 core CPU (preferably from Intel) decent, but not top tire motherboard, 8Gb ram and 500Gb+ HDD and decent 600W PSU.

GPU as of now isn't terribly important, but that may change soon as more and more GPU utilizing Render Engines (like iRay etc) will come to market.

Plus you'll get MUCH better warranty than from MAC. Virtually all that stuff would come with at least 3 year warranty, some like memory, or HDD may have 5+ year warranty.

[PBGV103 729]

I'M NOT SELLING ANYTHING. If the IRS doesn't consider this selling, then why do all of you keep refering to it as such? SimFox, even if I don't get a mac, the things you've listed above would still cost $2000-3000 and my parents still wouldn't pay for it. This whole thing isn't about making a profit, its about getting a better computer so I can continue making content for this community. The deal is this: if you want to donate, great, I won't be uploading anything new to the stex until I get a new computer, so if you want more BATs then you won't be speeding up the proccess if you don't donate. I'm not misleading anyone or forcing anyone to do anything. I'm sorry it turned out this way but thats just the way it is. I'm trying to get a job for the 4 weeks I have off over winter break, but I doubt I'd make even $1000.

[SimFox 804]

Not really, It would set you back some 1000-1500$

i7 930 Boxed CPU 285$

Asus P6T SE mobo 210$

8Gb DDR3 ram 120$

1Tb Samsung F3 HDD 65$

nVidia GTX465 1Gb SVGA Card 235$

add about 60-70$ for good 600W PSU and about same for good Tower Case (like Cooler Master Storm Scout) and there you have it good and powerful computer for little more then 1000$

I' for one don't see anything bad in selling... I, however don't think there will be many buyers... And not because it isn't good enough (it is good, very good if my opinion matters), just people expect these things to be free...No matter how long it takes to actually create them. My only point about selling was that SC4Model file

PS

I don't think anyone here really holds any gradge against you. I sure don't. I think we all should have right to bring up all sort of topics and ideas here.

[PBGV103 729]

Ok well I've changed the blog lay out. Now I'm just asking for donations in general and I'm not sending out any free files in return. All of the donations I receive will go toward a new computer in addition to any money I make over winter break, and once I have a new computer I'll start uploading to the STEX again.

In other news, I've done some work on 299PA. I have a ways to go before the day view is finished but I'll post a picture when it is. Is there any harm in using the same bitmaps for illuminated windows on 299PA as I did on 270PA? I was planning on making the bitmaps the same but changing the kelvin so it will have a different look.

[Parisian 556]

Well, I don't blame PBGV, but the fact that it's not really in the NYBT spirit, more generally in the whole simtropolis principle...

I mean if everybody start to put their model to sell, we can consider this team dead.

I don't find this really important because it concerns only one building (270 Park Avenue which is absolutely fabulous that's a fact), but do u have the intention to continue like this for the 299PA?

I can understand someone who have money problems, because I know that sometimes, i think everybody know that. But just imagine if  all NYBT members start to sell their model, then the HK Bat team make it too, etc etc... Simtropolis is dead or relegate to bad models...

Well, to conclude, maybe you could at least make a token gesture for our team, no? That's just a question.

P.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Originally posted by: Parisian

Well, I don't blame PBGV, but the fact that it's not really in the NYBT spirit, more generally in the whole simtropolis principle...

I mean if everybody start to put their model to sell, we can consider this team dead....

....Well, to conclude, maybe you could at least make a token gesture for our team, no? That's just a question.

P.quote>

I wouldn't say the team will die.

And the other bold part, you mean like have Paul use some donation money to give to us? I don't agree with that too well IMO.

Paul, you're a fantastic and amazing BATer. Shame that these hard times with money are getting to you.

No one here is trying to attack you. Most of the people talking to you are you're fellow NYBT members(except T Wrecks and Psander5 but they are friends too ) sharing advice. We're all friends here. Surely someone could also help render buildings for you if you don't have time, NDEX did that. Of course you are free to use donations if you really want too.

From what I see, everything has been said has been said. Nothing else to add. So how 'bout getting back on topic, shall we?

[Parisian 556]

Originally posted by: Sgt Pepper

And the other bold part, you mean like have Paul use some donation money to give to us? I don't agree with that too well IMO.quote>

No no, I didn't mean that. I said that we are a team, and I think we can share our models between us for free.

I meant that I don't completely disagree with this process in the way that Paul spent a lot of time to create this building which needed a certain talent to do it, and he did! It's like an artist who sell a sculpture or a painting, it needed time and a gifted person to do it. Paul made it!

But I guess that this act to sell a model you show on simtropolis is not really in the website's main goal which is suppose to share models for FREE. 

Here is what I thought through what I wrote.

[PBGV103 729]

Ok enough of that...

Here's something I put together a couple minutes ago:

Once I'm done with 299 here's the planned order of future BATs:

277 Park Avenue

245 Park Avenue

383 Madison Avenue

250 Park Avenue

then the mess...

GCT is connected to the grand hyatt hotel, the graybar building, and of course the met life building.  The helmsley building is connected to the met life building by the road/bridge thing.  I guess I could make all the buildings seperately and just fit them together after they're rendered, but is there any way to make the road around GCT and the rest transit enabled?  Any ideas?

[PBGV103 729]

The roof on 299 is pretty much done now

[Amthaak 1,501]

Amazing work on the roof details! the air fans are spectacular!

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Great roof junk! This is so much better than what most box tower BATs featured a few years ago, e.g. some randomly distributed generic HVACs on a totally flat rooftop.

As for transit-enabling roads, it is perfectly possible to draw road textures around a building and transit-enable the corresponding tiles, at least as long as you stick to the grid. However, transit-enabled lots have a few problematic aspects, so it's always better to use actual roads around a small lot rather than extending the lot to incorporate the roads. A compromise consists in making the roads on the lot and beyond the lot connect visually, but without assigning any actual transit switch properties to the lot.

[PBGV103 729]

Hahaha well this would be much more complicated, more akin to having a lot with a transit enabled road through it and a bridge that goes over that road that splits in half and wraps around a building after going through the middle of another building, then comes back together before crossing over another ground level road. Kinda complicated ehh? Lets make it work! xD From what I've seen in the NWM forum, in-game traffic follows those funny, colored arrows/paths right? So whats stopping someone from putting those through the middle and over a BAT? As long as the custom LODs are perfect it seems plausible.

And thanks for the compliment on the HVAC/roof stuff but it's not so hard when you're just copying photos

Here's what I mean about the traffic pathways:

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Yes, I do really love the roof junk 100% fantastic. Keep it up.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Yeah, I know what paths are, but there are few people who know how to customise them, and I don't know if it would really be worth the trouble...

[PBGV103 729]

Well, I think it would be. Afterall, weren't you the one that was saying how far BATing and modding has come since just a few years ago? This is an opportunity to take it to the next level!

By the way, I found this tool which seems like it would work: https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=546

If I start on this would someone be willing to create custom LODs? Cause I'm obviously terrible at it. When I make them they look fine in 3ds max, but somehow in the game they still end up blocking surrounding objects. Maybe this could be a team wide project? Just some thoughts...

[kakado_to_save 514]

Nice work... keep it on ..

[PBGV103 729]

Almost done with the 299 day scene. All thats left are the plants.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Can't wait to see it.

[PBGV103 729]

Well I had all 5 trees done and the first render looked great, but he next time I rendered the scene the leaves were gone but they were still there in the viewport. So, I restarted max and this time max didn't load the leaves at all. Then I went to the autoback files and the exact same thing happened...

[PBGV103 729]

Here's the day scene.

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Wow, Paul looks fantastic. Keep it up!!!!

[Sgt Pepper 864]

I see you're still on the darkside.

Well, I think the modeling and most of the texturing is fantastic. The only problems I have with it is the facade texture and the NYC Flag. The texture for the black facade looks almost like a solid color, and detailess. The NYC Flag just looks a tad bit too saturated. It looks good now, but I think it would look alot better with these little points in mind.

[PBGV103 729]

How's this?

I changed a few minor things.  The most noticeable is the black metal on the façade.  I increased the size of the ridges so you can see them.  They're larger than in RL now, but at least it looks more interesting.  It's not like the model is completely true to RL anyway.  The ground around the building is higher in the front, so there are half as many steps in the front of the real building.  I had to change little things like that.