Nightlighting Help? (thread obsolete)

[SimFox 802]

You’ve somehow managed to mis-number one of my questions – namely 5 with number 4. That made the answer basically mute, but that is not totally important.
 

You see I asked those questions in order to get talking about you making, planning your model. This talk through, with all the explanation is probably the most important step in the entire model building process. It determines how good you final creation will be.
 

Another very important step is to study originals, or in case of unique design similar real structures. see how things are put together, what materials are used where, what are the relative sizes and proportions. It is crucial because those are the things that will make you work believable.
 

Few comments to what you’ve written in reply.
 

The fin… well it is up to you… but you have to do 2 things to it if you want it to make you building better rather than worse. First you have to integrate it stylistically. Right now it is absolutely alien to the rest of your design. Second you have to model it in such a way that it structure would be believable too. Right now it is absolutely NOT believable. What is it made of? it neither look like glass no could it structurally be glass. What supports it etc, etc, etc…
 

The rest of the building. Sizes.
 

Size and proportions are key to good and realistic looking model. Always do everything by numbers and not by the grid. I’d say that 3,75m room height is a good start. as I,6m interfloor space. Normally office building would have bigger interfloor space as well as floor height. But these numbers are good European or North-American skyscraper average.

But when it comes to lattice… well all numbers start to fall apart. I’m not sure where you live and if you could go and see some similar building in real life, to see how it’s façade is organized, or better still see one during construction to have basic idea how it is structured. What and how carries the weight of the structure… See what are the sizes of the windows. Cause 6x3,75m that you give are extremely unlikely and implausible
.  

If you can’t see those in real life google for pictures. See how glass curtain walls are made, how the load barring structure of the building is made. Their relation to each other. It is very importat to grasp to make the believable model. Most people couldn’t put it in words, but virtually all intuitively see that something is wrong.
 

You should also download that NDEX model to see how it is made… Although I have some reservation of it as well. Main being that tower looks chopped off at the bottom. Building of this size will not simply grow out of ground like that it is HIGHTLY unrealistic. Another thing you may want to take a closer look at is CitySpire Center in NY. (http://www.emporis.com/en/il/pc/?id=114433&aid=8&sro=1) It is broadly similar to what you’re trying to make. Notice how although it has the “bulge at the center it doesn’t look like oversized bay window of a small house. Instead it works as bother structural and visual core of eh building. Same is true about the NDEX tower you’ve mentioned. Do you see why and how?
 

Generally patience and ability/desire to see is the most important skill.
 

About overhang over the entrance… You can’t get away with what you’ve done and hope it will look good. You can’t simply stick in the plain of odd material and call it overhang. It doesn’t look like one. What and how supports it. I mean it couldn’t be one giant sheet of glass (that generally goes to most elements in your model). The must be some support structure …
 

Anyway the point of my message was not tell you what to do but to get you to question and think through, reason your decision. so that they’ll be real expression of your desires rather than a string of accidents.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

OK, I'm definitely going to take much of that into consideration. Thank you.

I'll post an image of what it looks like after that - it will be a while, because I have an errand to do - but for now, here is what it currently looks like:

[Simcity player 13]

its looks great

[simcity4fan12 13]

That is a big improvement on the fin at nite! I think the texturing on the facade could be improved and more detail added to it and then you'll have a more decent BAT. Not saying it's not already decent though, just saying that it will look better. I really like your imagination in your BATs it reminds me of the imagination in my art. The texture on the fin reminds me of like a water-y effect that I like.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: simcity4fan12I think the texturing on the facade could be improved and more detail added to itquote>

I don't have very good textures, just ones that I made. Do you know of better ones?

PS

Mostly to SimFox, but to any that suggest modeling overhauls:

I tried, but unfortunately, when I do, I don't find the end result as beautiful as the original. Perhaps realism and beauty are, in my eyes, not hand in hand. What do I do? Should I give up remodeling (though continue retexturing) and accept the fact that many will dislike my models?

[simcity4fan12 13]

Well there's the MAXIS textures that came with it. When choosing your textures go to the gmax folder, gamepacks, BAT, then textures and you should find them. You need to modify them to your liking though. Sometimes you can find some textures on google image search. There's websites that offer them too.

You shouldn't give up modeling or remodeling any of your creations. They are great ideas that will look exceptional with some improvement. You just made a very good job on improving the lighting on the fin! Why stop there?

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: simcity4fan12

Well there's the MAXIS textures that came with it. When choosing your textures go to the gmax folder, gamepacks, BAT, then textures and you should find them. You need to modify them to your liking though.quote>

I can do that.

Sometimes you can find some textures on google image search. There's websites that offer them too.quote>

For free? Where?

You shouldn't give up modeling or remodeling any of your creations. They are great ideas that will look exceptional with some improvement. You just made a very good job on improving the lighting on the fin! Why stop there?quote>

The problem is, I can improve the textures and lighting, but when I overhaul the model itself, I start to not like it anymore.

[JakeMD 107]

Originally posted by: RadicalOne

Originally posted by: simcity4fan12

Well there's the MAXIS textures that came with it. When choosing your textures go to the gmax folder, gamepacks, BAT, then textures and you should find them. You need to modify them to your liking though.quote>

I can do that.

Sometimes you can find some textures on google image search. There's websites that offer them too.quote>

For free? Where?

You shouldn't give up modeling or remodeling any of your creations. They are great ideas that will look exceptional with some improvement. You just made a very good job on improving the lighting on the fin! Why stop there?quote>

The problem is, I can improve the textures and lighting, but when I overhaul the model itself, I start to not like it anymore.

quote>

You can get textures for free at . 

If you start out modeling in the correct dimensions from the beginning, then you won't have to drastically change everything in the end

[ReikaKalseki 52]

quote>

[Jazzmaster 716]

Originally posted by: swat-medic

If you start out modeling in the correct dimensions from the beginning, then you won't have to drastically change everything in the end

quote>

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

It's hard to feel like it would be worthwhile to critique someone who's being defensive.quote>

Was reading through this thread, and these two particular quotes really stood out for me.  I didn't give all that critique on your "fish tower" and tell you to seek help here just to turn you over to somebody else...I was hoping to help you in any way I can.  Thing is, you can't get defensive and snappy when people give criticisms on your work, as that is the whole point of a BAT thread.  We're not here to bash your works and ruin your confidence...we're here to give you advice to make true masterpieces.

Re-iterating what Swat said, this sort of BAT...imo...it's very messy and un-architectural in it's current form.  I'm no expert...but you don't have to be.  Take a look at real life skyscrapers and see how they're designed.  Take a good hard look at the buildings in this shot.  Notice how much damn detail goes into those towers, how artistic the designs are and yet, how proportions and other necessary principles of architecture/engineering design are implimented.  Comparabely, your towers are...I hate to say it but...nowhere near as good.  I'm not expecting some incredibly professional work from a first time BATer...but even in the years of the future or such, you can't expect all elements of design to just get tossed out the window. 

Take a look at some good pictures of real life buildings and how their designs are.  Good websites to research are Flikr and Delobbo , among others I'm sure.  Take time to plan out your structure, and only do one at a time.  It is a time consuming process, especially if you're involved in real life going ons such as school or work.  For your first BAT...I wouldn't attempt a massive skyscraper...I'd go for a small house, or a chain place like McDonald's or Subway.  Recreate it as perfectly as possible...and you'll begin to really understand the work that's involved in BATs and how they should be made.

You've got some nice ideas, but the models as you've made them leave a lot to be desired.  But, this is why we have this section in the forums...to help anyone and everyone become proeffecient BATers.  If you'd really like to bite the bullet, and sit down and sharpen your skills, then plan out and start a new BAT...we'll be here to help.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

It's hard to feel like it would be worthwhile to critique someone who's being defensive.quote>

I don't feel I'm being defensive, and I apologize if I appear to be.

Originally posted by: Yoshiisland

For your first BAT...I wouldn't attempt a massive skyscraper...I'd go for a small house, or a chain place like McDonald's or Subway.quote>

I don't design for the sake of design; I design for necessity. SimCity lacks large residential towers, so I'm trying to fill that niche. I merely try to make it look good as I do so, with apparently disastrous results. I think I'm probably from too different of a background to stylistically fit in with the rest of the STEX...

You've got some nice ideas, but the models as you've made them leave a lot to be desired...quote>

Admittedly, my modeling skills are not very good. I seem to be able to model some things well - look at some of my addons for other games - but buildings apparently elude me.

...But, this is why we have this section in the forums...to help anyone and everyone become proeffecient BATers.  If you'd really like to bite the bullet, and sit down and sharpen your skills, then plan out and start a new BAT...we'll be here to help.

quote>

I don't want to totally discard this building; I like two elements - the fin on top, and the general cross-section - too much...

I'm probably going to start over (and radically overhaul the design, with hopefully good results) and just copy the fin (or use one other, more realistic - and yet still attractive - idea that's in my head)...any objections? My plan is not to "normalize" the fin to make it fit the building, but to "radicalize" the building to fit the fin or its derivative.

[Jasoncw 11,843]

Your BATs suck.  You're new, so that's ok (I've made much worse BATs myself), but that's what it comes down to plain and simple.  Untill you fully accept that (you haven't yet, or else you wouldn't be trying to explain away the critiques (and yes, that's what you're doing, whether or not you're trying to)), you're not going to get any better.  And you need to get better because your BATs suck.  It doesn't mean anything, and it's not a reflection on you, that's just how it is.

SimFox and YoshiIsland have genorously written excellent advice, end of story.  What they've written is what you need to do.  There's no debate or concessions or explaining or buts.  You just need to take the advice.

I don't think it can be said any more directly than that.

Here are some of my first BATs:

[Evillions 552]

Your first BATs Jason are nice for firsts! But it sucks compared to today's work such as Bixel's and yours.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

I'm completely remaking the model - including the fin - so the images are now out of date, and I plan to delete them as soon as a new one is ready. (The originals will be replaced with a "this image is obsolete; scroll down" image). In the meantime, I have finally been able to implement transparent windows. I have a carpet texture on the floor, and interior walls, but should I make furniture? (I'd then array that upwards.)

PS

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

Your BATs suck.quote>

There are far nicer ways to say that. Let me give you a piece of advice. When you go after a person or their work with plainly derogatory - and insultingly blunt - statements like that, rather than a statement like "it needs improvement", their first reaction is to tune out. Moderator rank or not. Believe me, I'm not new to situations like that.

[Jazzmaster 716]

Dude...your BATs are terrible, mediocre, shotty, unfinished, they SUCK....it doesn't matter how you word it.  As Jason pointed out, there's nothing wrong with this.  The problem is in your defensive attitude and incapability to accept the fact that your skills are far from professional.  We all have to start somewhere...my first BATs sucked eggs.  A couple years back, I was part of this team that designed "unique, innovative and futuristic" buildings...they were TERRIBLE XD. 

The above is part of my "futuristic toll booth set"...wouldn't you agree that it's absolutely teh sux0rz?  I have no problem admitting to it

If there's anything I learned from that other than what makes a team, it's that the whole "futuristic, unique" thing is not to be used as an excuse for what is obviously a simple design flaw, or to just be lazy and not fix something because "oh in the future there will be giant black windows with nuclear reactor-bright interior lighting" etc.

[CSGdesign 27]

Originally posted by: SimFox

That made the answer basically mute,

quote>

It's "moot".  (And even then you've used it incorrectly).

Mute is to noise as helpful is to you.

Thanks for your help Dr. Freud... I'll be sure to look out for your pearls in future.

Is there anyone that is NOT trying to stroke their own ego that is able to shed light on if they've had similar problems getting nite-lighting to export after installing version 3.0 BAT4Max?

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: Yoshiisland

The problem is in your defensive attitude and incapability to accept the fact that your skills are far from professional.quote>

We've been over the "defensive attitude", but I will tell you that I am aware of - and accept - the fact that my skills are still in need of major development. Don't portray me as delusional.

the whole "futuristic, unique" thing is not to be used as an excuse for what is obviously a simple design flaw, or to just be lazy and not fix something because "oh in the future there will be giant black windows with nuclear reactor-bright interior lighting" etc.quote>

The only thing I use "futurism" as a justification for is for some foundational ideas, such as my Hyperspace Garbage Disposal, which was a success.

Anyways, here is V2 of Prism Tower Condos, remade from the ground up. (Only the solar panels were copied.) It's a day render only, as I won't bother lighting it until the model gets an all-clear. One note - the fin should be about 15% taller, something I've fixed since taking this image.

I've added hedge-rimmed balconies, interior design - visible through the semi-transparent windows, a new structure system for the fin, doors, taller floors, a thicker - and bilayer - roof, more support columns, and the lobby is still in progress. I uploaded this - in haste, as I have to leave for several hours - to give a preview on the new edition of the model, and to give others a chance for feedback.

[JakeMD 107]

Originally posted by: CSGdesign

Originally posted by: SimFox

That made the answer basically mute,

quote>

It's "moot".

Mute is to noise as helpful is to you.

Thanks for your help Dr. Freud... I'll be sure to look out for your pearls in future.

Is there anyone that is NOT trying to stroke their own ego that is able to shed light on if they've had similar problems getting nite-lighting to export after installing version 3.0 BAT4Max?

quote>

If it is the 3.0 BAT4Max at sc4d, then i would ask it over there.

If it is the 2.6HD BAt for MAX by simfox, over here, then ask it in that thread.

---

Edit:

This time its looking better 

I would still try to refine EVERYTHING you notice that you think needs improvement. Keep looking at buildings for reference, and try to improve everything that you don't think is right.  Keep it up, you are improving.

[CSGdesign 27]

Oh ok I didn't realise it was only on sc4d (the v3.0)... thx.

It's both actually - since I installed v3.0, had difficulty, someone said that everyone uses v2.6 and to get that which I did, and now I have le problems.

I was actually gonna do a backup of the script folder and then empty it completely and start again with the v2.6 scripts and that should fix it... surely.  Makes no sense otherwise... it's not like it's a hardware conflict or something stupid like that.

See the problem is I had other scripts too, so I had to go and manually make sure I'd removed the v3.0 scripts and I may have missed one... but I figure if I back them up then delete them all, then when I run into trouble later needing one of the other (non-BAT related) scripts I can just get it out of the archive.

I mean srsly all's I wanna do is build a model, render it, lot it, and use it.  All this brain-wave-in-the-head-things just drown out creativity with trouble-shooting noise.  Grrrr.

Thx Swat.

[JakeMD 107]

Yup you should not have 2 bat4max scripts installed, they will surely conflict with eachother.

EDIT:

Also, notice the detail in the facade here, on the Chronos Palms model. (Preview Render by me, model by DT)

[BlackDragonAJ89 21]

Can I say this? The BAT is not an easy thing to do on the first leg. Look at these crappy buildings for a laugh:

Those two purple houses [named Matt's House] were built to correct scale, but I used poor modeling methods and built the lots sloppy. Good thing you guys never got them...

That purple building is the Shiny Gems Bank. Don't worry about the color scheme, just look at the architecture of the thing, it stands out too much.

Now here's the Renamon Plaza, the big yellow one over towards the left. Not very good is it?

The problem was I was trying to build too big before I knew how to build small. GMAX isn't all to difficult to learn, but getting things right in the BAT is. Sure, we've all got our ideas on how we want buildings to look, but you can't break all the rules.

Maybe you should sketch out your ideas before you make the actual buildings; that's what I'm doing...

[CSGdesign 27]

Originally posted by: RadicalOne

Originally posted by: simcity4fan12I think the texturing on the facade could be improved and more detail added to itquote>

I don't have very good textures, just ones that I made. Do you know of better ones?

PS

Mostly to SimFox, but to any that suggest modeling overhauls:

I tried, but unfortunately, when I do, I don't find the end result as beautiful as the original. Perhaps realism and beauty are, in my eyes, not hand in hand. What do I do? Should I give up remodeling (though continue retexturing) and accept the fact that many will dislike my models?

quote>

Whether you have good image editting software and skills or not, the quickest and easiest way to locate a texture or image is Google Images.  Then search for things like wood, glass, metal, water, whatever... with photoshopping you can use these raw images to create pretty much anything at all.

[SimGoober 2,351]

Looks like I need to work on a new Fukitol Factory. It appears that several members here are not getting a high enough dosage....

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Please tell me this is an improvement...

[Simcity player 13]

it looks way better

[JakeMD 107]

Yup its looking better.

Now you might want to start working on textures, and make it a little brighter!--Also, is there a roof? It appears that the roof junk is floating.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: swat-medic

Now you might want to start working on texturesquote>

I'm having some trouble in this respect.

Also, is there a roof? It appears that the roof junk is floating.quote>

There is a roof, yes. I believe that the illusion of absence comes from the fact I used a dark asphalt texture for it.

PS

It's not junk - it lowers the power usage (and pollution, indirectly) of the tower.

[JakeMD 107]

Heh "Junk' is just a term BATers use

For help with texturing, see here, and here

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: swat-medic

For help with texturing, see here, and herequote>

It's not so much applying textures as getting non-crappy textures I'm having trouble with. Everywhere I go on the internet, I find watermarks, "register here", or my AntiVirus (AVG) blocking the site due to "high risk activity" on the site.

EDIT:

Is there any way to make the fin's glass partly transparent? I've had no success in the past - apparently, judging by my experiences with it, and according to the Simtropolis Forums - correct me if I'm wrong - transparency works fine if there's another object behind it. If not, it will render as opaque, with the rendering background adding in the missing alpha channel, darkening it drastically. I was using software rendering mode in the game at the time - I'm now using hardware - and I had the glass either looking invisible - (if set to <50% opacity), or opaque and darkened (if set to >=50% opacity). Is this still the case? I would love to have the fins be semitransparent, as per the original design.

[Jazzmaster 716]

Looking better! 

It's not so much applying textures as getting non-crappy textures I'm having trouble with. Everywhere I go on the internet, I find watermarks, "register here", or my AntiVirus (AVG) blocking the site due to "high risk activity" on the site.quote>

Try here to remedy the problem.

For the lattice/window frames you've added, I'd make them brighter so they contrast more and thus stand out better so we can see them.  Also, about the "fin"...imo, it should be symmetrical, and the texture on it seems a bit "pixelated"...