The Simtropolis Closet Thread - deux!

[s.i.X 13]

Gaydar does exist. You're taking the idea too literally. It isn't mind reading, it's observing and understanding body language and speech patterns to figure the sexual orientation of someone, with the occasional eerie moments when you lock eyes with a stranger and both of you instantly realize that you're gay.

It isn't perfect but it's a start.

[Meg 368]

It seems like this is the place to mention Chaz Bono, the author of "Transition". [link]

I was watching the interview with Jay Leno and I couldn't get this image out of my mind. [link]

I spent years watching this kid grow up. Obviously, it's not my choice or my business what Chaz does or doesn't do.

But I am feeling, how does that song go? Stuck in a moment I can't get out of.

[Roger51 381]

As I sit here staring at a wall trying to do my assignment (procrastination is awesome!), wondering whats on the other side, or if this double story library will fall down because of the build quality, which was only built in January.

I think to myself..how strange life is?

It all started when I got out of theology and starving, messaged a good friend to see if she wanted to have lunch, as we are waiting for our lunch, she told me she had some more information about her wonderful relationship life, where she broke up with him last night, and decided to get back together this morning! Then she was insistent on know about mine, I thought to myself this is the perfect opportunity, sadly I chickened out, as there were a lot of people sitting next to us. I then made a promise that after lunch on the walk back to uni I would tell her. Once we left, I told her I was gay....now I don't know who is more shocked, me or her!

Highlight for long story

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I'll bet you didn't think of bilge pumps, which we will need soon if this line continues.

Pay attention to the subtitle, and keep in mind that many people who post here are doing what you are doing: seeking sexual identity. the rest of us, who are quite sure, seek to help.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Actually, water, sewage, bilge, and other industrial/utility pumps were the first to come to mind, the second to come to mind were insulin pumps and other medical devices; the third thing that came to mind were high-heeled shoes. I will not explicitly state what was the fourth type of pump to come to mind...

Chaz Bono, that is an interesting story. I group sex changes with plastic surgery and hormone (and steroid) use. I think plastic surgery goes against nature and is flaunted by shallow rich people but is OK when it restores health (breast reduction for women with bad back problems, fixing cleft pallets, restoring vision to those with facial deformities), and I think of hormone usage as bad unless the person using the hormones desperately needs them (bad menopause, psoriasis, inhalers, other health issues/ disabilities). This means that I do not disapprove of sex changes when it significantly and permanently improves the health of the one with the surgery. Chaz seems to have the mind of a man and seems like he had the mind of a boy when growing up as Chastity (it sounds like she was rather chaste) and if living the life of a woman was bad for her (mental health), and living the life of a man is helping his mental health, then I certainly cannot disapprove the choice.

  Edited May 26, 2011 by Ilikeseattle  

[Meg 368]

Chaz seems to have the mind of a man and seems like he had the mind of a boy when growing up as Chastity (it sounds like she was rather chaste)

I remember my mother wondering "how can that child ever live a normal life?" She couldn't stand the idea of a child being named Chastity. and she didn't approve of people "parading little children around on TV."

Chastity was on for about a minute at the end of each show. In the early years, she just looked confused, but not freaking out, while Sonny held her in his arms. Later, when she got too big for that, she would do stuff but not much. (The bit at 0:35 here is a good example.)

if living the life of a woman was bad for her (mental health), and living the life of a man is helping his mental health, then I certainly cannot disapprove the choice.

I put it in the "hey, whatever works" category. Seems like a lot to take on but I guess people do what they need to do.

Turns out that I've known two transgendered people, or to be more accurate, people who weren't finished transitioning yet. One female co-worker turned out to be a man who was undergoing a 2 year trial living as a woman before he had the surgery. I didn't know this history when I met her. I just figured she was a woman with a slightly odd sounding voice. In that case, he decided not to go through with it. He changed jobs so I never saw him as a man.

The other one transitioned years after I knew him so I can't say anything about the "after" since we haven't been in the same place since. I understand it is rough on his kids. They are in their early teens. That has to be difficult.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I believe that transgendering when children are involved is very selfish. If you are not happy with your lot in life but have produced children, there is something wrong with your head.

[FreewayofFlight 41]

I consider sex changes the same way I think of abortions. While I personally would discourage the practice, I know that in the end it is not my decision.

[Zelgadis 638]

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what there is against transgender here...

This isn't a spur-of-the-moment decision type thing. Nobody just wakes up one day and thinks, "Jeepers, I wanna change genders." While I agree that we shouldn't ban the practice, I also go further and say it would be morally repugnant for anyone to even discourage or condemn it. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to feel trapped in the wrong body nor am I going to sit here and pass even the slightest judgement on anyone who would choose to go through this arduous process. Going through the transition process takes years of therapy, hormones, and surgeries. It cannot even come close to being compared to an abortion, which is an exceedingly simple procedure by comparison.

I'm not even going down the slippery slope of who should and should not have children. Would everyone who's perfectly emotionally centered and would be the greatest parent ever in history please raise your hands. Anyone? No? Thought so. We're all humans and we're all messed up. I can think of at least a thousand situations for a kid to be in that could be truly horrible. Having a transgender parent would definitely require adjustment, but I'll take that over a parent in WBC any day.

So, if you want to change genders, by all means, go for it and I sincerely hope that it makes you happier than you are now.

If only it were that simple. Here's the sticky part.

By far, the easiest time to transition is before the onset of puberty and kids this young have made the decision, with their parents' blessings, to make that transition. That raises a host of new questions, notably, the "are you sure" question. Again, I'm not going to imagine that any kid or parent is going to make this decision lightly. Most transgender people I've known have said they felt like they were in the wrong bodies from the very beginning and no age is going to change that.

It's still a sticky situation though. We need more knowledge on this subject. Knowledge which is sometimes difficult to get as it is a politically charged subject.

ISF

[s.i.X 13]

I believe that transgendering when children are involved is very selfish. If you are not happy with your lot in life but have produced children, there is something wrong with your head.

So what, all depressed people who accidentally have kids and then have to take care of them against their will should have abortions or there is "something wrong with their head"? Sure you can throw back the argument that people who aren't ready for kids shouldn't have sex but after more than 60 years of experience on this planet you know damn well that human sexual behaviour can't be repressed.

If you're a responsible parent, your children, especially if they're teenage children, should have no significant issues with coming to terms with a trans-gendered parent. It's unfortunate that society forces transgendered people to conform this way, and hopefully in the future these kinds of situations can be prevented by allowing them to transition before they raise children.

The only reason same-sex or transgendered parents are "wrong" and "hurt kids" is because we programme those kids to feel hurt and wrong for having same-sex or transgendered parents. Kids only feel hurt or confused about same-sex or transgendered parents when other people, usually adults, tell them things that make them feel ashamed of the situation.

It isn't the fact that Tommy has two moms that hurts him; what hurts him is when Billy's mom makes fun of them in front of him, or when his teacher tells him that it isn't "right" to be in that kind of family.

I group sex changes with plastic surgery and hormone (and steroid) use.

I group it with surgery to correct a birth defect, because that is exactly what it is. We don't force children to live for years with a rotten third leg growing out of their hip and then call them selfish when they want to remove it and live a more normal life, so why would we act this way toward a woman born with male genitalia? How is it selfish to want the gender of your body to match the gender of your brain? It's far easier to change the former than the latter, but trying to change the latter is what society forces them to do until they have the courage to speak out about who they really are and start the process to change it.

Forcing a transgendered person to wait until they're middle aged to become who they're supposed to be is just as bad as expecting homosexuals to stay in the closet until that time. Do you honestly think this is appropriate?

[Meg 368]

It cannot even come close to being compared to an abortion, which is an exceedingly simple procedure by comparison.

Medically, yes. Emotionally, it is not "exceedingly simple".

If you're a responsible parent, your children, especially if they're teenage children, should have no significant issues with coming to terms with a trans-gendered parent. . . . . Kids only feel hurt or confused about same-sex or transgendered parents when other people, usually adults, tell them things that make them feel ashamed of the situation.

There are a couple of different subjects here. Having same-sex parents or already-transgendered parents is one thing. Having a parent in the middle of transitioning to another gender is another.

Teenagers can have enough trouble sorting out their own sexuality. Put yourself in the place of the 13 year old son. He is already struggling with his own transition from boy to man. Adding in his father's transition from man to woman is throwing the kid for a loop. I'm not saying he won't get through it. I'm just saying that an already confusing time is now more confusing to him. Yes, there is a difference between "sexuality" and "gender identity" as Chaz Bono is pointing out. Not all 13 year olds have sorted that out yet. To tell him he "should have no significant issues" with it is rather unfair. Give the kid some time.

It isn't the fact that Tommy has two moms that hurts him; what hurts him is when Billy's mom makes fun of them in front of him, or when his teacher tells him that it isn't "right" to be in that kind of family.

That is a different issue. Tommy isn't dealing with a person he has known all of his life changing dramatically. But I agree that Tommy shouldn't be hassled because of his family. Time was, children of divorce got hassled. Times change.

Forcing a transgendered person to wait until they're middle aged to become who they're supposed to be is just as bad as expecting homosexuals to stay in the closet until that time. Do you honestly think this is appropriate?

No, I do not think it is appropriate. but it isn't that simple. Chaz Bono is 42 years old. He is saying that it took him this long to figure it out. No one was forcing him to wait.

Yes, Cher was encouraging Chastity to follow in her footsteps but even she had to admit they were some pretty unusual footsteps. [Cher and Bob Mackie through the years] It says something that, back when Chastity thought she was gay, she told her republican congressman father before she told her stage performing mother. Was Chastity being encouraged to explore her gender identity? No. Was she being forced to wait? No. She was still sorting it out herself.

(I am using "she" while speaking of the past and "he" while speaking of the present. Is there another way to use the pronouns?)

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I agree with Meg on this one. I think it is fine for a child to have homosexual and/or already transitioned transsexual parents but changing your mind when you are already a parent is selfish, like cheating on your spouse when you are raising children. Plus a change in sexuality or gender after you started raising a family is usually very bad for the family and is often taken by the family as not being good enough for that person anymore.

About pronouns, I use masculine for neutral terms (because that is how most languages work, including Spanish, the language of my father/second language) and use femine when talking about things that are femine at the time. That means that I would use similar pronouns as Meg. One thing in Spanish that is not grammatically proper is to refer to a group of people of mostly girls, and an unknown number of boys where the main demographic is girls, using the feminine plural term.

[Zelgadis 638]

I... can't believe I'm reading this... In this thread, of all places. I see we have a lot further to go than I thought...

I think I should just stay out of here from now on...

ISF

[Meg 368]

I agree with Meg on this one. I think it is fine for a child to have homosexual and/or already transitioned transsexual parents but changing your mind when you are already a parent is selfish, like cheating on your spouse when you are raising children. Plus a change in sexuality or gender after you started raising a family is usually very bad for the family and is often taken by the family as not being good enough for that person anymore.

I never used the word "selfish" although I agree that different timing would have been easier on everyone. A lot of adults with children find themselves in untenable situations. Staying with it "for the sake of the kids" often doesn't help anyone, including the kids. But I must admit that I've seen many situations where my reaction has been "how can you put your kid through that?"

About pronouns, I use masculine for neutral terms (because that is how most languages work, including Spanish, the language of my father/second language) and use femine when talking about things that are femine at the time. That means that I would use similar pronouns as Meg. One thing in Spanish that is not grammatically proper is to refer to a group of people of mostly girls, and an unknown number of boys where the main demographic is girls, using the feminine plural term.

I am learning Spanish. At first I thought the pronouns were difficult. (A tie is feminine and a dress is masculine? huh?) But those verb tenses are really difficult.

but that's a side issue.

[astronelson 339]

Balancing the needs of a transgendered parent with those of their children is no easy task. While I am certainly not qualified in the field, I am sure it is generally good for a child to have stability and a supporting environment, and a parent focussed on and undergoing a gender transition process is not usually conducive to either. However, a parent not being at all comfortable with how they are can lead to depression, which likewise is not helpful for the healthy development of a child.

There are various ways the two can be balanced, however, most if not all would require a restructuring of how society works at a fundamental level or how families are organised. A solution may flow from the saying "it takes a village to raise a child", but not many of us live in places where the village lifestyle common when that phrase was coined exists. It is certainly a difficult issue, and one for which the solution would require far greater minds than anyone can legitimately lay claim to having.

As for the pronoun problem, I generally use the singular "they" where possible, restructure sentences to avoid the issue, or a combination of the two. Since we are referring to a specific person in this case, I would say masculine pronouns are correct as that is what he identifies with now. Using feminine pronouns for the past, when he identified as female, is understandable and probably appropriate, unless he objects to this.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Sorry if I offended anyone. I was agreeing with both Nonny Moose and Meg.

It also works both ways. People get upset or are left confused if their spouse suddenly realizes that the person they started a family with suddenly realizes that they not only are no longer in love but "realized" that they are so incompatible that the spouse changes sexuality or gender. This includes men who "realized" they were gay, women who "realized" they were lesbians, lesbians that "realize" that they are straight, and gay men who "realized" that they were straight. The children of course would be left confused (or angry if that parent left them).

Marriage/civil unions with children should not be experiments with sexuality. If someone was serious enough to get married and raise children (whether biological or adopted), then suddenly realize that they suddenly have incompatible orientations, therapy would probably be needed for spouse and children. If, however, someone started out or ended up bisexual, then it makes much more sense. A theoretical case were even changing genders is not bad for the family. If a woman who felt like she was a man but was in a happy civil union/marriage with a woman and she told her spouse that she thinks she is a man trapped in a woman's body (preferably before marriage) and the spouse is OK with that and the first woman goes through with the process (whether as a man just with woman parts or with a full on sex change) and lets her family know in advanced, then it makes sense and there should be no harm to her family.

By the way, I mentioned elsewhere that civil unions are a legal term and that marriage is a religious term so the term marriage should no longer be officially used for any unions and that unions (marriage) between any 2 consenting adults (even between men and women) should be legally called a civil union. Thus all civil unions will become as strong as marriage contracts and homosexuals should not be excluded whatsoever. My solution abolishes the term marriage from legal documents and abolishes domestic partnerships or denial of recognition of a civil union. So pretty much universally designed marriage without being called marriage. [in case any of you are wondering how I came up with such a radical concept, my parents are divorced Catholics. I don't believe in the sanctity of marriage anyway so why mess it up for those who do? People can still get married in the church, just their paperwork will say Civil Union.]

[EyeofMobius 27]

I don't think being selfish is a bad thing in this case. If decisions and difficulties dwell in your mind for years on end until you are finally able to make such a significant decision then when you have that decision you go ahead and do it. I have many important decisions that I am almost certain of the answer to but the day I decide to act on it hasn't come but when it does I will act (don't worry no bell-towers here).

Frankly I am annoyed by the use of children as arguements against anything. Children are made of much sterner stuff than anyone is willing to credit them with. Arguing that it is a tragedy when a child goes through a life altering event of any kind is a demonstration of insecurity in the world wholesale; this isn't tragedy, it's life and everyone involved will come out the other side for better or for worse.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I'm sorry if I raised a ruckus, but that's the way I feel. I have nothing against transgendering, but I think it is a tough row to hoe when raising kids. It is not fair to the kids if what you are doing to straighten yourself out affects them negatively. An amicable divorce might be a better solution before undertaking a three year treatment with all its ups and downs, rather than exposing the kids to such an environment. This is especially true of the kids are old enough to understand what is going on, but not mature enough to accept it. Separation may be the least worst option in this case. Support and care arrangements can be made as amicably as possible.

[s.i.X 13]

By the way, I mentioned elsewhere that civil unions are a legal term and that marriage is a religious term so the term marriage should no longer be officially used for any unions and that unions (marriage) between any 2 consenting adults (even between men and women) should be legally called a civil union.

Religious people generally oppose this because it makes the term "marriage" meaningless in a legal situation, and ultimately it is the legal authority they want, not the religious freedom.

I don't really care about the pet projects of religious people though so I support the same basic idea. Government shouldn't perform religious ceremonies and religious bodies shouldn't conduct legal proceedings.

It is not fair to the kids if what you are doing to straighten yourself out affects them negatively.

Gender transition is a very small, almost insignificant item on the endless list of things that adults do that affect their children negatively.

  Edited May 28, 2011 by s.i.X  

[hym 358]

Religious people generally oppose this because it makes the term "marriage" meaningless in a legal situation, and ultimately it is the legal authority they want, not the religious freedom.

I'm not sure that what they want is legal authority so much as it is a desire to see recognition of "God" as a supreme being and a component of daily life. Changing the term from "marriage" to "civil union" is meaningless from a religious standpoint, so it certainly doesn't affect them that way. It does however, give the impression that "God" is considered less and less important in public life, and this is something that concerns some people.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Well, the married couple's church would still recognize holy matrimony and the married couple can still be considered married but the government does not recognize marriages without paperwork currently so it should not be that bad to make the switch I proposed. This would also eliminate Las Vegas marriages because they could not be considered religious ceremonies and the paperwork would all say "Civil Union."

See, my proposal of this "separation of church and state" issue should be win-win. Religious "conservatives" would appreciate not being put on the same page as homosexuals and homosexuals get all the benefits of having the same exact legal position as everyone else. Being religiously married can be flaunted like any other religious aspect while it has no meaning in court.

By the way, I have a rather unique viewpoint because of my upbringing. I have always lived in low density residential areas of the Seattle Metropolitan Area, which means I get the family (and religious) oriented upbringing in the midst of getting a lot of "progressive" "education" of the second most progressive city in the United States. My life experiences have made me a little cynical but I am generally a good person.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

In any religious wedding I have attended there has always been a civil license as well. Both sets of paperwork are completed after the ceremony. Clerics who perform marriages are also arms of the civil authority. This is practical in that it saves on the cost of a separate function.

So, I fail to see what the problem is here. In most religions, Matrimony is a sacrament, and thus private to "God", whereas the civil portion endows the "rights".

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I heard a joke about marriage and divorce in Italy.

Italian: "Do you know why divorce rates are so low in Italy?"

Foreigner: "Is it because Italians are known as such good lovers?"

Italian: "Not really, it's mostly because the paperwork is much harder for divorce than marriage."

I hope the inconvenience of separating the religious and civic parts will not discourage serious marriages but Las Vegas chapels might close down.

[FreewayofFlight 41]

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-01/us/illinois.civil.unions_1_civil-unions-illinois-religious-freedom-protection-inheritance-rights?_s=PM:US

Some good news out of Illinois.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Washington should recognize Civil Unions.

My Washington only has "domestic partnerships" and Washington DC is afraid of doing anything.

It won't have a direct effect on my personal life because I plan on marrying a woman based on intellect whether or not we are fully compatible. It would affect me because I know some wonderful homosexual couples and I want then to have every right and benefit that "normal" married couples get instead of the stupid second rate status they get now.

  Edited June 7, 2011 by Ilikeseattle  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Washington should recognize Civil Unions.

My Washington only has "domestic partnerships" and Washington DC is afraid of doing anything.

It won't have a direct effect on my personal life because I plan on marrying a woman based on intellect whether or not we are fully compatible.[\s] It would affect me because I know some wonderful homosexual couples and I want then to have every right and benefit that "normal" married couples get instead of the stupid second rate status they get now.

Don't get married for the wrong reasons. Family pressure and social conformity are not reasons to marry the wrong person. Man up.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

In my experience, marriage based off of passion (sex) soon degrades to the point where both spouses end up divorcing hating each-other even when they raised 2 children. Marriage based off of intellect, understanding, etc (married for the mind, not the body) seems to last much longer. All of the marriages I know of that started off with passion/love/sex always ended badly.

EDIT:

1. I will not keep secrets from my wife.

2. I find physical attraction unnecessary (I doubt anyone would be physically attracted to me).

3. Physical attraction is not needed for friendship.

4. Best friends can have incompatible orientations.

5. So why can't two people with platonic love not get married?

  Edited June 7, 2011 by OcramSeattle  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

You are going about this the wrong way. Marriage only works between friends, equal in all areas or not. If your spouse is not your best friend and confidant, you are doomed. What keeps a marriage going is communication. Sex is just a bonus. Appreciation and help are part of it as well as those three little words sprinkled liberally into the conversation. No matter how long you've been married, you must never lose the will to discuss anything between you. Even when one partner's world ends, you have to face it together.

When my company dropped my division one fine day, the HR counsellor had the termerity to suggest that since I would be on severance there was no need to share this with my wife right away. This foolish woman was obviously single, and would never have a successful marriage. I went home, changed into my jeans and was making lunch when my wife got home from shopping. I didn't have to say anything. She got the message immediately.

You can't keep things like this from your spouse because it is unfair, and you also need the support you get from each other. I am in love with my wife, who happened to have a very good degree, when I did not, but was equivalent to me or better as a systems analyst. We had similar levels of experience, but her experiences brought her in from the scientific side and mine from business. We meshed like a pair of perfect gears.

Our tastes started out slightly different, but within a couple of years, we had blended them. For example, she liked orchestral music and I vocal. I took her to one opera (Lohengrin) and she was hooked. I had a sailboat and she had never sailed. She so liked the piloting aspect that she took the power squadron's advanced piloting course and aced one of the most difficult papers I have ever seen. We started going to serious concerts of solo artists. I never really understood this stuff, but with her coaching, I really got to like some of the wilder instrumental pieces. She dragged me off to the Shaw festival. I never much cared for GBS, but now I rather like his stuff. And so on, for twenty-two years until she passed away.

I am over it now, it has been four years, but there are times I'd still like to talk over a decision with her. And I still love her.

  Edited June 7, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

Nonny, you are very right there. You can't keep secrets from one another, a relationship needs trust and open-mindedness.

And although it has been 4 years as you said, I'm sorry for your loss. May she rest in peace.

I'm only 16 so I won't need to worry about marriage for a while, but one can't jump into a decision straight away. It's a big step.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Is it any wonder that I didn't marry until I was fifty years old? One has to find the right partner.