7.1 million in jail

[GMT 389]

So, as I just read on CNN, the Pewter Center on the States released results of a reseach that are kinda disturbing:

in 2007, 7.1million americans were in jail, on probation or parole, what makes it a stunning one of 31 inhabitants in jail. To give an idea of the increase, in 1982, it was one out of 77 and a total number of 2.2 million (even considered the population icrease, I guess the figure doubled)

but what really concerns me about this study (quoting the report):

Black adults are four times as likely as whites and nearly 2.5 times as likely as Hispanics to be under correctional control. One in 11 black adults -- 9.2 percent -- was under correctional supervision at year-end 2007quote>

These high figures mean that prisons are overcroweded. This might hit CA pretty hard because, as federal judges ruled already, CA is close to violate prisoner's rights unless they reduce the number of inmates by a stunning 40%

apart from obvious increases in crime rates, there's one more thing that the report shows as a reason for these high figures (quoting again):

If you talk to judges and prosecutors practically anywhere in this country, they will tell you if they had stronger community corrections, they wouldn't have to send so many people [to prison] for so many low-level offensesquote>

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what do you think about this?

[fabsies55 5]

astonishing thats what i think of this truly astonishing

[Patricius Maximus 236]

That sickeningly high figure is due mainly to the drug prohibition laws, and the incessant "tough on crime" slogan used mainly by conservatives, but also some Democrats and fascists.

If mandatory sentencing is repealed, and drug prohibition is repealed, then that will reduce the number of inmates drastically. Sadly, there is such an obsession in American politics about upholding these laws that they probably will not consider it -- unless some genuine liberals or libertarians are elected to Congress.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Again the simplest answer is best.

Dont comit crimes and you wont go to jail.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Again the simplest answer is best.

Dont comit crimes and you wont go to jail.quote>

Not so simple. The issue becomes what should be defined as a crime. This issue has two broad sides which believe that one of these things should be crimes:

1. Acts which violate the moral code of the government

2. Acts which violate another person's rights

Some acts which violate rights are often included in the moral code position, but also other things which violate no one's rights.

Think: whose rights are you infringing upon by smoking marijuana alone in your own house? No one's. All you're doing is circulating smoke through your lungs created from the combustion of a substance derived from a plant. Which, I concede, is not good for a person, but a person owns his or her body, not the government, and must decide for him or herself what to do with it.

Drug use can easily be delegated to the same treatment as alcohol offenders.quote>

Precisely. I would support this same kind of treatment of use of currently illegal drugs, with the exception of marijuana smoking -- that should be treated like cigarretes.

Legalization of drug use would eliminate the prison issue, and with taxation, provide revenue for the state/federal entities.quote>

Yes, it would. It would make if nothing else fiscal sense to turn a huge loss into a profit. Legalization of drugs will also incite competition among manufacturers, improving purity, and tamping down the vastly inflated prices of illegal drugs, which is used to finance, among other things, Mexican guerilla groups.

[Muck308 55]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Secondly, sentencing laws are often ridiculous.  I have seen many instances where a drug offender loses 5-10yrs for carrying around a dimebag.  Yet, I have also seen murderers released after 3 yrs for killing someone.  Talk about an imbalance.

Let's just say the current penal system makes me sick.  There are so many other problems I haven't even touched on that are also affronts to human decency.

Barbarossaquote>

 

A dime bag? Not likely. Most police officers would confiscate such a small amount and administer a disorderly conduct charge, which is partnered with a fine, usually around 400-500 dollars depending on location of the crime. 

But I agree with you, Barbarossa. Drug sentencing is completely out of whack. But those who make it to Federal or State prisons, as opposed to local jails, on drug charges, most likely had a lot of contraband in their possession.

That's a whole different argument right there. Is a person posessing one pound of marijuana along with a scale and baggies and therefore intent to distribute, as much of a threat as a person possessing a loaded 9MM, also with intent? The answer is no. The two crimes are nowhere near eachother. But this is disputable since many lawmakers regard any possession of narcotics as equally damaging as possession of weapons. Nevermind the fact that guns kill more people than weed. 

Of course it's much more complicated than that. Prostitution doesn't kill anyone either. But certain crimes can accompany prostitution, along with the buying and selling of drugs. No matter what drug it is(but more often than not, opiates are the problem). These are often accompained by murders, robberies, and assaults. The solution may not be legalisation. Just because it's legal to see a prostitute doesn't mean some nut is going to decide against killing the girl when he's through... people get off on some sick things.

But... if the act of solicitation is legal, then it is likely regulated, and that scenario would be harder to take place.

I offer the following solution. Keep prostitution illegal. Way too many scumbags are associated with the trade. If you want to turn a trick, go to Vegas. Legalize, or at the very least decriminalize, the possession(not the sale of) marijuana. There's more than enough potheads out there to help fill the government's pockets with revenue made by regulating the sale of the substance.

Prisons still crowded? Of course they are, I'm not done yet...

Now take all those "white collar" crimes like insurance fraud and get them out of prison. These offenders are usually placed in minimum security facilities, but if they are all sent home to house arrest, the facility is available for more hardened criminals. If the problem is overcrowding then shouldn't we maximize the space by putting away the worst of the worst first?

Has the overcorwding problem been aleviated yet? A bit, but there's more.

Now the prison system has to be fixed. There is no such thing as rehabilitation in today's prisons. People need to be reformed and offered some alternative to a life of crime. So many parolees wind up right back at Chino, or Sing Sing, or wherever b/c they simply have no choice. What are they gonna do? Become a bus driver when they get out? Apply at the Post Office? Malarky. They are going to stick to what they know. Crime. Whatever it may be.  If people dropped out of school and turned to crime, what's to prompt them to do better for themselves? Education. Prisoners should be educated and classes should be mandatory. Is it fair? Of course not. Why should taxpayer dollars go toward educating those who refused to follow the rules? Because that's how you make things better. You tend to the wounded and sick first. (Many of) these people in prisons are sick with mediocrity. We should takes society's worst and make them assets. That way they don't return to prison, which would free up many many thousands of cells. Unfortunatley there are more than enough people to fill them. But over time maybe there wouldn't be. Instead of being in and out of prison throughout your life. You go once. You make yourself a better person, or you're forced into being a better person, I don't care. That's one less person incarcerated and therefore one more person paying taxes into the system. Money talks.

Will all of this work? In a perfect world, maybe. Here in our world? Never in a million years. Wishful thinking I suppose.

[ilikehotdogsalot 307]

Considering you can get arrested for just about anything nowadays, this doesn't surprise me.

[Jezus53 18]

A lot of good arguments in here! Now, let's be frank here. Most of those people in jail are high school drop outs or people born into the life of gangs and drugs. Saying that, I blame the school system and the penal code. The penal code has already been discussed but the school matter hasn't be touched. I graduated from high school last year and I've talked to many other people from other schools. We have all witnessed the degradation of our school campuses and the corruption of our fellow classmates. Everyday I went to school I could tell that they were just trying to get us through the 4years to get their funding for us. They could care less about our education. Our teachers were horrible, our class rooms had MOLD growing in them, half the campus didn't even have working fire alarms, my government book didn't even know what the Clinton scandal was. There was no motivation to learn anything there. We keep cutting funding from schools to give it to the prison system. I for one don't believe in prisoners rights. You committed a crime so you get what you deserve. Instead of trying to keep criminals comfortable in jail give the money to schools. The only reason I continued to college was because I didn't want to end up settling for a mediocre job or have a lame mediocre life making 40k a year (which is poverty where I live).

Saying that, I do believe that drugs should become legal and heavily taxed and heavily regulated. I would never use them, and I hope that if we ever legalize it, that wouldn't come back to bite us in the butt.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Legalizing weed is a long way  away, if ever. Heck there making it so diffuicult to just smoke ciggerattes, you think thier going to let you lite up a fat one? ( what ever that is    

In most citys regulations say you  cant smoke in almost any building anymore,some even limit the locations out side were you can smoke. about the only place left is your own home. Not that i care  being a non smoker but banning  smoking in night clubs is taking  it a bit far.

If they ban smoking in  bars this picture would not be nearly so cool

 

[Royal Guard 0]

I think that the figure can be related to the current system's length. Although many, many people are jailed for small crimes and such, I personally think that the biggest factor is that our justice system takes so long to go through. Not that that's a bad thing in any way, we just need to realize that if we want to prove everyone beyond any reasonable doubt than it takes weeks and months to keep them in jail even before the sentence. Just legalizing drugs won't make the problem go away, how many people are in jail for things they did under the influence of alcohol even though it's legal? Maybe giving the police more power (which isn't likely seeing as Americans seem to fear police) will help catch criminals farther up in organizations, which would lessen the amount of petty drug dealers who are arrested daily. European countries give government forces much more power in investigating crimes. Agreeing with Jezus53 and Muck308 education needs to be improved, way beyond the No Child Left Behind law.

Just wondering, can anyone get comparative information on European prison systems? I'm interested in seeing if the US is an anomaly or if other countries have the same problem.

[fukuda 351]

Just wondering, can anyone get comparative information on European prison systems? I'm interested in seeing if the US is an anomaly or if other countries have the same problem.quote>

Our prisons are horribly overcrowded too.. we got only one little jail for 10 million people here. No one wants a prison in their village or neighborhood

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes Again the simplest answer is best.

Dont comit crimes and you wont go to jail.

quote>

Amen.

How hard is that to understand?

[Patricius Maximus 236]

I for one don't believe in prisoners rights. You committed a crime so you get what you deserve. Instead of trying to keep criminals comfortable in jail give the money to schools.quote>

I do not believe in a special set of rights for prisoners, but prisoners do and should have rights, the same rights which are applied to all humans, be they citizens/residents or not.

In most citys regulations say you  cant smoke in almost any building anymore,some even limit the locations out side were you can smoke. about the only place left is your own home. Not that i care  being a non smoker but banning  smoking in night clubs is taking  it a bit far.quote>

I am a non-smoker myself (don't even like the smell of tobacco ), but I believe that the government banning smoking in non-flammable structures is treading too much into personal liberty. I do support segregated sections in restaurants for smokers and non-smokers, to protect the health of people with lung problems, et cetera. I also believe it is a business's right to ban smoking from their property if they wish to, but the government banning it is going too far.

how many people are in jail for things they did under the influence of alcohol even though it's legal?quote>

Quite a few, but not for multi-year sentences, like marijuana users do. Also, consider how many more would be in jail if alchohol were prohibited.

Maybe giving the police more power (which isn't likely seeing as Americans seem to fear police)...quote>

Definently not. The police in the US have too much power as it is. Look at all the assaults of arrested persons lately (police brutality) as well as the very large potential for indivudual judges to abuse the enormous power which is vested in them. What about the sub-human treatment of children by a judge in the US, sending them to specialized "detention centers" (which is a code word for a concentration camp for children), where they were physically and psychologically assaulted. With all these police brutality incidents, the penalties for it are not harsh -- they always give the offenders a suspension, often paid, only to return to duty. What about the National Security Agency (the American secret police) which is mining for data and spying on every American every day, in clear violation of the Fourth Amendment.

No, the police should not be vested with more power. Indeed, they should be more regulated.

Dont comit crimes and you wont go to jail.quote>

Amen.

How hard is that to understand? quote>

It is not hard to understand. What is in controversy is the crime part -- what acts should people be sent to jail for?

According to that simple explanation, citizens in Nazi Germany should have prevented overcrowding of Gestapo jails by not aiding Jews in escape from Germany, or resisting a tyrranical secret police force, or engaging in guerilla operations against a fascist regime. It is not as simple as that simple saying, it has never been, nor will it ever be.

I have no comment about the public school system as I could post a long, winding rant on that for pages. I prefer to discuss why these acts are considered crimes, rather than the school system, although I will say that it must be fixed, and fixed rightly, starting with the repeal of No Child Left Behind and the repeal of compulsory attendance laws, as well as an equal rights amendment for ageism.

[Jezus53 18]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus I will say that it must be fixed, and fixed rightly, starting with the repeal of No Child Left Behind and the repeal of compulsory attendance laws, as well as an equal rights amendment for ageism.quote>

I agree with that. The No Child Left Behind Act basically lowered standards to allow more undereducated people through rather than have a smaller group of highly educated people. This is just a little though in the back of my head, but maybe the thought behind that is to have dumber populous who is easier to manipulate. Possible, but highly unlikely.

Anyways, I also agree that legalizing these crimes will not solve the problem. You have to think about the people already in jail for these crimes. If you legalize the possession of marijuana, then do you let go of all the prisoners who are held for possession because it's no legal? Or do you keep them for their sentences because they were put in jail and charged when possession was illegal. It's very complicated.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Anyways, I also agree that legalizing these crimes will not solve the problem. You have to think about the people already in jail for these crimes. If you legalize the possession of marijuana, then do you let go of all the prisoners who are held for possession because it's no legal? Or do you keep them for their sentences because they were put in jail and charged when possession was illegal. It's very complicated. quote>

Agreed on the point of the problem with existing prisoners. However, legalization will certainly help prison overcrowding >3-5 years in the future at the very least.

[Muck308 55]

Let's not forget the one thing that gets pushed to the back of everyone's mind. Jobs. Reduce the prison population to below it's capacity and then labor will be cut. Not to mention the people added to the workforce by not being incarcerated. That's the biggest problem with the tabacco industry. And since everyone is coming clean so will I. I'm a smoker who would love to see an end to cigarettes. But the industry as a whole employs so many people. You can't make it disappear overnight. And even still it's a shame if the industry disappears because tabacco could be a nice treat if we could all just remember to take in moderation. Ugh. Moderation. There is no moderation with cigarettes, except for a lucky few. Price is going up 7 bucks a carton on April 1st here in Pennsylvania. All the more reason to quit I suppose. It's too bad that the decisions we must make for ourselves can so often affect so many others around us sometimes... when you think about people losing their jobs. Best not to dwell on it.

[Jezus53 18]

Muck308 brings up a good point. With the added amount of workers and the steep decrease in jops because of the recession, I'm afraid to say that these people would be forced into other types of crime. It's sad, but most likely true.

As for cigarettes, I am one of the lucky few that can enjoy in moderation. I have probably three or four cigarettes a week, at most.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

In most citys regulations say you  cant smoke in almost any building anymore,some even limit the locations out side were you can smoke. about the only place left is your own home. Not that i care  being a non smoker but banning  smoking in night clubs is taking  it a bit far.quote>

I am a non-smoker myself (don't even like the smell of tobacco ), but I believe that the government banning smoking in non-flammable structures is treading too much into personal liberty.quote>

That may be so, but do you know any common structures that aren't flammable?

how many people are in jail for things they did under the influence of alcohol even though it's legal?quote>

Quite a few, but not for multi-year sentences, like marijuana users do. Also, consider how many more would be in jail if alchohol were prohibited.quote>

Depends on the crime.  Urinating in public won't net you more than a few days in jail, most likely.  Commit manslaughter, and you're looking at the possibility of a very long prison sentence.

Maybe giving the police more power (which isn't likely seeing as Americans seem to fear police)...quote>

Definently not. The police in the US have too much power as it is. Look at all the assaults of arrested persons lately (police brutality)...quote>

Care to name a few?

I know that police can and do commit assault at times, but I also know that there are times when people scream "Police brutality!" when in reality, the police didn't have much of a choice.  When individuals get violent, there often isn't much of a choice except somehow forcing them back into submission.  The route that one can take to get to that state can very, but simply talking with the person is very unlikely to produce the needed results.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Yoman3 5]

At least we have good license plate production figures

[Jezus53 18]

Originally posted by: Yoman3 At least we have good license plate production figures quote>

Ya know, I don't think California allows us to have prisoners do any state labor. It's "inhumane" or something.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

It's "inhumane" or something. quote>

It's because of a consistent application of the stance that forced labor violates human rights. Why should the state be subject to different rules than the people?

[fukuda 351]

Why should the state be subject to different rules than the people?quote>

Oh, that's because prisoners ain't humans after all, no?

[830point35 8]

Some guy out here is going to the slammer for six months because he drained a wetland.

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: 830point35 Some guy out here is going to the slammer for six months because he drained a wetland.quote>

Wetland theft is a pretty big deal

[saltandsauce 0]

7.1 million out of 250 million sounds right, 

if the issue is "legalise drugs" to reduce this number then why don'y we legalise murder, fraud and battery while we're at it and save the government millions.

the reason governments HATE drug users is because they have to be supported either through crime or welfare payments (both costly) and many cannot work properly and that means companies end up struggling to find a sobre worker and this makes it the governments problem.

look at amsterdam with legalised marijuana and prostitution. they are suffering becuase of this and wish they hadn't been so "progressive"

in the UK the opposite is true, people commiting violent crimes (such as rape, assault and homicide) get measley sentences of 4-10 years and get let out early for "good behaviour"

and prisoners get to enjoy having a toilet in their cell instead of a bucket or "slopping out" (which i did on my last caravan holiday) table tennis and tv. in all they enjoy warm cells, food, shelter and entertainment which is better than some of people i know (who live in the dark and live on beans and bread) and the area i live in (no entertainment whatsoever)

[Shingure 56]

This doesn't suprise me one bit.

I will tackle it from a historian's point of view

Failing economy + Loss of jobs + Inflation + Increased Social Issues = More crimes being commited ---> More people in prison ---> More Overcrowding.

At a certain point it also has to come down to the basis and issues. I have the theory that violent crime results from 1 of 2 things. One is ignorance and lack of education while another is the need and/ desire for something that you lawfully or easily can't get. With this in mind and taking a look at other countries no wonder we have become the country of prisons. Because education is no longer something to invest in anymore by the people who actually have the money. That's why over the last 40 or 30 years they have been in steady decline. Ever since money stopped being put into the school system and into the correctional system the trend has changed. People who run these prisons make a profit that would be larger than if they owned a school. It's cheaper to lock up an undereducated person than it is to educate a child. But based on attendence the amount is the same earned for each. Automatically the prison system has now become a resivoir of money. Notice that there are more prisons being built instead of schools. Because the money is now in the prison system and that education , that can keeps some of these individuals out of jail , has become underfunded and uneffective. The Philadelphia School system is perhaps a perfect example of the model listed above.

Edit: As of October 2006 there are 300,000,000 persons living in the U.S via the U.S Census Bu.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

7.1 million out of 250 million sounds rightquote>

Does it sound right to you that 1 out of every 50 people is in jail? China has 1.51 million prisoners out of 1.3 billion! That's 1 out of every 1000! And China is described as many as having an authoritarian government. What does that say about the US?

if the issue is "legalise drugs" to reduce this number then why don'y we legalise murder, fraud and battery while we're at it and save the government millions.quote>

Why don't we legalize them? Because if you do that you violate another person's rights. And that is the primary role of government -- to protect the rights of its citizens. If you inject yourself with a dose of heroin in your own house, whose rights are you violating? No one's. Therefore, it is not the right of government to try you and put you in prison. If ceasing this wrongful intrusion into rights of citizens, we save money, then that only strengthens the case.

Saving money is a side effect of drig legalization and regulation. It is not the primary effect.

look at amsterdam with legalised marijuana and prostitution. they are suffering becuase of this and wish they hadn't been so "progressive"quote>

Elaborate on their "suffering". They're better off than Mexico, which is in a civil war being financed by drug inflation, particularly cocaine inflation.

and prisoners get to enjoy having a toilet in their cell instead of a bucket or "slopping out" (which i did on my last caravan holiday) table tennis and tv. quote>

Because it would be unsanitary for them not to have a means of disposing of their excretions. Toilets are the best way to do this. We do not want our government's prisons to be breeding grounds for plague and sickness. It would be best to keep them alive longer, if for no other reason for them to suffer more in confinement.

in all they enjoy warm cells, food, shelter and entertainment which is better than some of people i know (who live in the dark and live on beans and bread) and the area i live in (no entertainment whatsoever)quote>

Warm cells are a prerequisite for prison habitability. If we wish to kill prisoners, execution is more efficient and less costly. Food is a requirement for life: I'm not familiar on what kind of food prisoners eat, but I'm sure they're not on bread and water (which, by the way, can produce deficiencies if it is the sole component of a diet).

In short, I believe prisoners should have more than bread and water in a cold cell with no way to dispose of excretions. They should have:

- A reasonably warm cell (i.e. one that is lukewarm, not cold)

- A way to quickly dispose of excretions (a toilet)

- A diet which supplies necessary nutrients. It should not be very good food, but it should provide them with their bodily needs

- Their human rights recognized. Among them is the right not to be tortured, the right to life (which includes the right to end it), and to have their property undisturbed while they serve their sentence

- The right to vote after they have served out their sentence

- The right to prove their innocence

Their human rights should be respected while in prison, but their resident's rights and citizen's rights should not be recognized while in prison, but fully restored upon release.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

7.1 million out of 250 million sounds rightquote>

In short, I believe prisoners should have more than bread and water in a cold cell with no way to dispose of excretions. They should have:

- A reasonably warm cell (i.e. one that is lukewarm, not cold)

- A way to quickly dispose of excretions (a toilet)

- A diet which supplies necessary nutrients. It should not be very good food, but it should provide them with their bodily needs

- Their human rights recognized. Among them is the right not to be tortured, the right to life (which includes the right to end it), and to have their property undisturbed while they serve their sentence

- The right to vote after they have served out their sentence

- The right to prove their innocence

Their human rights should be respected while in prison, but their resident's rights and citizen's rights should not be recognized while in prison, but fully restored upon release.quote>

 

That and  an excersize period once a day then nothing else. there is an easy way to make prision not worth going to.  95% of a prisioners time should be spent in thier cell except meals/shower& excersize.no work partys, laundry room/ect jobs. Boredom is the key, give them nothing to do while they serve thier time and they will probably not be keen of going back.