Georgia and Russia basically at war

[fukuda 351]

Just cuz your citizens are in a country does not give you rights to that country, nor does it revoke the rights of that country to maintain their state through force if necessaryquote>

It does give you the right to defend your citizens, though.

cease fire means cease firing immediately. slow is blatantly ignoring it. quote>

Cease fire means cease fire, it doesn't mean an armistice. No one is fighting right now, afaik.

The separatist authorities in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which have had de facto independence since the early 1990s, have thanked Russia.quote>

Separatists.... You're a valerous person fighting for "self-determination" when you're in the "good guys" side, and you're a separatist when you're in the "bad guys" side...

Mr Saakashvili described the declaration as "the first attempt in Europe after Nazi Germany and the Stalinist Soviet Union to... change the borders of Europe by force".quote>

He forgot somewhere the violent annexion of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia to Georgia in 1989.

Speaking later to the BBC, he said the move had been "a blatant attempt to legalise the results of ethnic cleansing [which] Russian troops are continuing to commit, right now as we speak, and that have been committed during the last several years".quote>

It's funny how far hipocrisy can go for someone who ordered to bombard one of its own regions.

But anyway, I guess that he's our war criminal, like Pinochet and others were back in the days.

[pnorrell 4]

Originally posted by: Yeah_Right

if u people explore some more on russiatoday.com u will see we are just trying to get this new countries on their feet so they dont get blown up again as soon as we leave.

does anyone here actually think NATO makes the world safer place?

that is what they are supposed to do, but they do oppositequote>

Well, I hope we will one day see the Chechens and the Ingush and the Tatars and the Cercassians and the Dagestanis and all the other hundreds of ethnic minorities in Russia find an end to their suffering and be able to celebrate the independence of their nations as well. I hope somebody will get these small nations "up on their feet" so they can resist Russian aggression. I don't think the Russian government will be so protective of "their citizens" if it is Russia those citizens are trying to secede from, rather than Georgia. In fact, we've already seen how they handled Chechnya.

It's certainly debatable whether NATO makes the world a safer place but there is a large and now quickly growing number of people who do at least feel it makes them safe from Russia. Ask the Baltic states and Poland who I am sure go to bed every night since the Georgia crisis started thinking how lucky they are to have already made it in to NATO. Support for NATO has dramatically increased in Ukraine, Moldova and even Azerbaijan since this crisis started. People see NATO as the only way to protect themselves from the neighborhood bully.

Originally posted by: fukuda

He forgot somewhere the violent annexion of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia to Georgia in 1989.quote>

There was no violent annexation of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. Rather, they violently fought to leave. They were part of Georgia - independent Georgia, the Soviet Republic of Georgia, the first independent Democratic Republic of Georgia and the ancient kingdom of Georgia. You can't annex, violently or otherwise, territory that is already yours.

Originally posted by: fukuda

It's funny how far hipocrisy can go for someone who ordered to bombard one of its own regions.

quote>

Yes, hilarious. And Putin proves hypocrisy can go so far as to have him destroy all of Chechnya and flatten Grozny and then invade a sovereign country to punish them for supposedly doing the same thing a few years later.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Some Russian troops also continue to operate near the Black Sea port of Poti, south of Abkhazia, where Russia says it will carry out regular inspections of cargo.

The US said on Tuesday that its warships would deliver aid to Georgia's port of Poti, which is under Russian control. The move could mean US and Russian forces coming face to face. quote>

Good, that will shut the Russians up. I seriously doubt they will do a damn thing, if they did ESPECIALLY try and 'inspect' the American cargo the US Navy would have a couple of things to say on the matter.

look at WWII, usa got involved in europe etc to protect british allies. quote>

Actually America got involved after it was attacked. Before that they were involved in complicated land lease agreements and behind the scenes support to Britain.

look at how much bias there is in red1530's news.quote>

That source is the BBC, one of the worlds most UN-BIAS news outlets. I will trust a BBC story over anything else, same goes for most quality British media.

does anyone here actually think NATO makes the world safer place?

that is what they are supposed to do, but they do oppositequote>

Not sure about the whole world, but yes I think they certainly make Europe safer and keeps annoying nations like Russia in its place. As Pnorrell stated, it certainly makes the former soviet bloc nation feel a lot safer.

There was no violent annexation of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. Rather, they violently fought to leave. They were part of Georgia - independent Georgia, the Soviet Republic of Georgia, the first independent Democratic Republic of Georgia and the ancient kingdom of Georgia. You can't annex, violently or otherwise, territory that is already yours.quote>

and

Yes, hilarious. And Putin proves hypocrisy can go so far as to have him destroy all of Chechnya and flatten Grozny and then invade a sovereign country to punish them for supposedly doing the same thing a few years later.quote>

Agreed

[Yoman3 5]

They diverted the US Coast Guard Cutter Dallas to Batumi, what a Coast Guard Cutter is doing in the Black Sea nobody knows

BBC certainly isn't unbiased either, it definitely is biased, just like every other news source on the planet. The biases just happen to line up with your views. That said, BBC is less biased than say Fox, or Interfax.

Now for some great quotes from a CNN News Article about the USCG Dallas diverting from Poti to Batumi and the heightened Nato fleet activity in the Black Sea.

"

The U.S. Coast Guard cutter Dallas bypassed its original destination, the Georgian port of Poti, which is controlled by Russian troops still in the country despite a cease-fire deal to end conflict between the two countries.

The Dallas carried 80 pallets with more than 76,000 pounds of relief supplies, the U.S. Sixth Fleet public affairs office said in a statement, including hygiene items, food, milk and juices.

The cutter is delivering aid as part of a larger U.S. program that has delivered supplies worth at least $20 million to Georgia.

More than 50 U.S. military flights have also landed in Georgia. And a U.S. Navy ship -- the USS McFaul -- recently arrived at the Batumi port with 155,000 pounds of bottled water, milk, baby food and other items, the U.S. Navy said.

The United States says it has also delivered sanitation facilities, tents, bedding and dry and canned goods to Georgia.

Russia has criticized the U.S. program to deliver $20 million of aid to Georgia. One general labeled the move "devilish," according to The Associated Press.

"The heightened activity of NATO ships in the Black Sea perplexes us," AP quoted Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn as saying in Moscow."

I just found the fact that the Russian General thinks that delivering Aid is evil and devilish quite funny

[hawkpride147 1]

Originally posted by: Yeah_Right "Just becaus your citizens are in a country does not give you rights to that country, nor does it revoke the rights of that country to maintain their state through force if necessary" said by hawkpride147.

ofcourse it does, your people are being attacked, whether abroad or not, u have the responsbility too defend them. look at WWII, usa got involved in europe etc to protect british allies. quote>

umm we were attacked by Japan first. Pearl Harbor was the reason we got involved. A sovereign nation has the right to resist the attempt at independence by separatist regions. I don't hold anything against England (now a part of the UK) for their attempt to end the colonists rebellion during the American Revolution. I live in a part of the United States that declared independence. That bid for independence was ended by the United States' victory over the Confederate States. As part of that region, I harbor no ill will towards the United States that we are still a part of their nation. The part of that region that I live in is Texas. We rebelled against Mexico. We won a very hard fought war for our independence (losing most of the battles) and became our own sovereign nation and were recognized by Mexico. If South Ossetia and Abkhazia desire independence, then it is their war, not the Russians. The people of Texas were United States citizens living in Mexico. The United States did not send troops to help in the war. they enforced their border with Texas, not Texas border with Mexico. The weapons help Texas received from the United States was very limited. It was Texas' war, not the United States'. Basically what I'm trying to say is that Russia needs to let the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia fight their war for independence. I have no problem with them wanting independence, but they should want it enough to fight for it. Russia needs to enforce it's border with those areas...not those borders with Georgia. Russia should not set one foot in Georgia.

usa is just coming into the ports for an excuse to attack us.quote>

A United Stated Coast Guard ship is not a ship that usually engages in fighting. A Coast Guard ship is supposed to only use force when attacked first. Its primary purpose is rendering aid and informing other vessels of entering restricted waters. You can easily tell a Coast Guard ship from any naval ship by its colors. The Coast Guard has Orange and White Markings. Many times the ship is entirely orange or white as opposed to the traditional gray of warships.

@ Fukuda

1. sorry about getting your name wrong earlier...I make lots of typos. lol.

2. so if Iran started sending people into the United States to create a city that's sole purpose was declaring independence and the citizens of that city attacked us, if we responded, Iran could invade our country and face no consequences?

@ Yoman3 the Coast Guard Cutter is there doing what we claim delivering aid. With Russia's threats we don't want to send in an unarmed ship, but we also are not trying to get involved other than delivering aid such as medical and food, thus we send an armed ship that does not routinely participate in combatic activities. We don't want to be militarily involved so we did not send a Naval ship (althought the Coast Guard is technically part of the military, its primary purpose is peaceful). True we also did send a Naval ship, but one and a Coast Guard ship should be much less threatening than 2 Naval ships. I guess the Naval ship was intended to be like an escort should our Coast Guard Cutter be attacked. I mean its safer than 2 Coast Guard ships.

[raja_indy14 8]

I have no problem with them wanting independence, but they should want it enough to fight for it.quote>

hawkpride, that's frankly rediculous. independence movements in recent history have often been taken advantage of by competing powers to further their own aims and goals; russian intervention in Georgia is very similar to NATO - and especially US - intervention in Kosovo. it would be hypocritical to suggest that it's wrong for russia to invade georgia and recognize Abkhazia and S Ossetia as independent, when the US has just recently done almost the exact same thing in Kosovo.

independence movements are NOT something that as a rule should be independently won without significant outside help, this has never been the case, and it certainly isn't now. you give the example of the Texan rebellion, and yet ignore your own war of independence, the success of which was to a significant extent dependent on the intervention of france and spain - yorktown was the decisive victory it was because a french fleet won the battle of the capes.

and then there are examples of the US actively supporting the crushing of independence movements, most spectacularly in vietnam, where the US ended up financing the french war against the rebellion...

anyways, the s ossetians have been fighting for it...

[Mayorm 14]

What i don't understand is, everybody blames Russia for attacking Georgia, but Georgia attacked Russian territory first.  Russia is just defending thier country, and being an American i feel we should mind our own bussiness and stay out of this conflict. Bush will get us into another war and that is not what we need. We're already fighting in Iraq. Bush getting involved with just makes me

[Simfan34 11]

Always blame Bush eh?

[Yoman3 5]

hawkpride147 - I know that, it was a joke, because you often don't see coast guard ships that far from the United States.

Mayorm - Get your facts straight. South Ossetia is not part of Russia. Even Russia doesn't claim that, and until yesterday they maintained that it was part of Georgia. So therefore, your statement that Georgia attacked Russia first is idiotic, plus, look at a map, you really think thats a good idea? That would be like if the Bahamas decided to try to invade the US.

[fukuda 351]

Yes, hilarious. And Putin proves hypocrisy can go so far as to have him destroy all of Chechnya and flatten Grozny and then invade a sovereign country to punish them for supposedly doing the same thing a few years later.quote>

He already warned and threatened about using the same "strategy" used in Kosovo by us....

Ah, and another term used only when "bad guys" invade countries: "sovereign"

2. so if Iran started sending people into the United States to create a city that's sole purpose was declaring independence and the citizens of that city attacked us, if we responded, Iran could invade our country and face no consequences?quote>

Err, the ones attacking Ossetia were Georgia here, not the other way round, in your comparison it should be "and we attacked the civilians of that city". Even if that theory of russian papers was absolutely true (probably), ossetians are humans, not "scum", neither chess pieces to play with.

BBC certainly isn't unbiased either, it definitely is biased, just like every other news source on the planet. The biases just happen to line up with your views. That said, BBC is less biased than say Fox, or Interfax.quote>

Agreed

everybody blames Russia for attacking Georgia, but Georgia attacked Russian territory first.quote>

hey, S. Ossetia is georgian territory....

[belfastuniguy 18]

What i don't understand is, everybody blames Russia for attacking Georgia, but Georgia attacked Russian territory first. Russia is just defending thier country, and being an American i feel we should mind our own bussiness and stay out of this conflict.quote>

Someone doesn't know what a map is....

[hawkpride147 1]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

What i don't understand is, everybody blames Russia for attacking Georgia, but Georgia attacked Russian territory first. Russia is just defending thier country, and being an American i feel we should mind our own bussiness and stay out of this conflict.quote>

Someone doesn't know what a map is....quote>

"Recent polls have shown a fifth of Americans can't locate the U.S. on a world map. Why do you think this is?"

I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, people out there in our nation don't have maps and, uh, I believe that our, uh, education like such as, uh, South Africa and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh, or, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future, for our children.

hehehe...

 

[pnorrell 4]

THE TIMES OF LONDON August 28, 2008 Russian-backed paramilitaries are “ethnically cleansing” villages on Georgian soil, refugees and officials told The Times yesterday. By James Hider in Gori South Ossetian militiamen have torched houses, beaten elderly people and even murdered civilians in the lawless buffer zone set up by the Russian Army just north of Gori. The violence, close to the border with the breakaway republic recognised by Russia this week as independent, has prompted a new wave of refugees into Gori, 40 miles north of Tbilisi. People who had started to return to their villages in the area are now fleeing for a second time, joined by many elderly people who had refused to leave their homes when the Russians invaded two weeks ago. A straggle of refugees gathered yesterday at the feet of a giant statue of Josef Stalin, Gori’s infamous native son, to register with the local authorities and the UN refugee agency, the UNHCR, for emergency supplies and accommodation in three tent cities being built near a football stadium. “They had no uniform — I think they were Ossetians,” said Siyala Sereteli, 73, who fled her village of Irganeteye the previous day when irregular forces arrived. Weeping, she lifted her sleeve to show a deep bruise inflicted by a blow from a rifle stock. “They took everything they wanted, even the fans. They beat up a man using sticks and a chair and then threw him in the river,” she said. Other refugees were clustered in the shabby city hall, trying to glean news of relatives still inside the buffer zone, which Russia said it had established to prevent Georgian attacks on South Ossetians, many of whom hold Russian passports. A look of deep shock froze the face of Oliko Gnolidze when she managed to make contact on her mobile phone with an uncle, Nodari Jashiashvili, in Tkviai, about a 20-minute drive away. “There is panic here, they are burning houses,” came the crackly voice of her uncle. “I don’t know what to do. Ossetians are in the village.” Ms Gnolidze, 38, said that in earlier conversations her uncle had told her that only a few people remained in the village, with Ossetian irregulars looting under the noses of Russian troops, described by Moscow as “peacekeepers”. She said the Russians had forced her uncle to cook a meal for them, after which he had fled and hidden in nearby woods. Shorta Kharadze, a 45-year-old lorry driver, returned to Gori from Tbilisi, where he had sheltered during the fighting, after his mother’s neighbours from the village of Megheverizkevi told him that she had been murdered by South Ossetian militiamen. Looking gaunt, Mr Kharadze said the neighbours had telephoned him to say that two men in uniform had come to the home of his 77-year-old mother, Oliya, and demanded to know why she hadn’t left the village. She had been wounded in the arm during the fighting in the area but had refused to leave. “They beat her with an axe handle. There’s a pond in our yard — she fell near it and they pushed her in. I don’t know if she was still alive when they pushed her in or if she drowned,” Mr Kharadze said. “It’s like ethnic cleansing, genocide,” said Koba Tlashadze, a council official in Gori, which was itself briefly occupied by Russian forces before last week’s ceasefire. “It’s a special operation codenamed Clean Field, because they are emptying the villages.” The UNHCR has voiced its concern about reports of “new forcible displacement caused by marauding militias north of Gori near the boundary with South Ossetia”. It said as many as 400 displaced people had gathered on Gori’s square on Tuesday “after being forced to flee their villages by marauders operating in the so-called buffer zone established along the boundary with South Ossetia”. Alessandra Morelli, a UNHCR co-ordinator in Gori, said that confirming the stories was impossible because Russian checkpoints had sealed off the buffer zone. Farther west, in Borjomi, Georgia’s Environment Minister accused Russia of having deliberately started extensive forest fires in the country’s main natural park by firing incendiary flares into tinder-dry mountains. After a helicopter inspection of the still-smouldering area, Irakli Ghvaladze said an investigation was being set up into Russian strikes on the park — far from military operations — for almost a week during the conflict. “We have begun to investigate this ecocide,” he said. The fires had destroyed hundreds of hectares of forest, with fire-fighting helicopters unable to operate for fear of being shot down. “Who knows why the Russians did this? They destroy everything,” he said.

[Yeah_Right 2]

okay now i will be using quotes

first of all, Russia is not this big bad bully that is out to take over world.

so stop saying:

...so they can resist Russian aggression.quote>

People see NATO as the only way to protect themselves from the neighborhood bully.quote>

It's certainly debatable whether NATO makes the world a safer place but there is a large and now quickly growing number of people who do at least feel it makes them safe from Russiaquote>

but yes I think they certainly make Europe safer and keeps annoying nations like Russia in its place.quote>

okay now we please stop russian demeaning pls?

this thread isnt about how russia is bad.

hey, S. Ossetia is georgian territory.... quote>

i think westerners are angry at russia because they do not see south osettia as a pro-russian country with most russian citizens.

and georgia killed many civilians, nobody calls them big bullies.

ending, i think there should be some world wide comitee for recognising independant nations, and so they can formally ask for independance or something, not fighting.

yes boys, i am russian and i dont like fighting.

maybe u should screenshot that sentence

also, sorry for *****ness, what is us coastguard?

i thought it is navy dending ship? with cannon or whatever

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Yeah_Right

also, sorry for *****ness, what is us coastguard?

i thought it is navy dending ship? with cannon or whateverquote>

The US Coast Guard is a service branch that acts as a "defensive navy" for protecting the US homeland.  Some of its jobs include disrupting attempted drug smuggling into the US and things like that.

[mightygoose 92]

im fed up of western media creative obvious anti-russian bias in its populace... the georgians started the fight, the russians responded to defend its citizens, the americans are the ones using "military hardware to aid the humanitarian effort", they have stuck their equipment right in the firing line should aggression reccur thus the americans will have an excuse to go after the russians outright. personally i think it is the americans that are acting as the "bully" and the whole of NATO is so in bed with them that they will happily go along with the propagandist crap....

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Ecvi 0]

1 Russia did not attack Georgia as it is written in a press. And Georgia has attacked Southern Osetijuju

2 Rosijsky armies did not interfere on territory of Georgia, only clearing of a zone of peacemakers.

3 fact of destruction the Ossetin, was and is photographed by the Georgian military men. And the Russian Federation protected the citizens

4 Recognition of Kosovo, it is more illegal than the recognition of Ossetia and Abkhazia)

5 West will make nothing Rosii, only conversations.

6 United Nations, OSCE, big 8 - concourse of doll politicians which can make nothing)

7 in 2-3 months will pass all, do not worry.

8 and the Russian Federation frankly spits on the western countries)))

It is short, not personal opinion, and the adequate review of a situation

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Shingure 56]

As far as Iam concerned WWIII is going to happen because people are

1. Too power hungry

2. Too different to other's tastes

and 3. Because other people are too ignorant to one another.

Honestly Iam one of the few who say it takes two to tango. Georgia decided to set the wood on fire and Russia decided to put the gas on the wood. So if WWIII does happen I wouldn't be too surprised.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Oh, you're hilarious!  Please post more, I need a good laugh!

 quote>

That is hardly the way to greet someone who just made his first post after joining over a year ago.

Ecvi, welcome to Simtropolis.   We are glad to have you here and hope you continue to share your point of view.

A reminder to everyone:  talk about the issues, not each other.

[I9113N 4]

8 and the Russian Federation frankly spits on the western countries)))

However, I do believe #8.  Which is why I think Russia needs to be curbed.

Barbarossaquote>

Curbed? It's Russia's opinion about us, which doesn't mean we have to "curb" them.

I agree with Ecvi.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hawkpride147 1]

@ barbarossa...i tend to agree with you. russia had no business outside the conflict zone...yet they still remain there...this seems like a passive act of aggression to me...thus the reason we delivered supplies. that way if anything happens, we're there, and if nothing happens, we helped out. i do have to disagree with you that the US probably had something to do with this...remember, we're still dealing with the mess we call operation iraqi freedom. we shouldn't have done anything but search for the empty warheads that we found or the 500 tons of uranium we found.

the United States Coast Guard serves many purposes. they rescue people in distress on the water, they deliver aid supplies to decimated areas (wars, hurricanes, etc.), they help with evacuations, they help prepare for disasters, they are like the border patrol of the waters in that they stop people from entering the Unites States illegally, and they if need be, provide defense. they are not heavily weaponed, but are weaponed nonetheless. they are similar to the merchant marines in that their primary duty does not involve weaponry, but that they can if necessary.

as for russia not being a bully...what about the threats against poland? why would you claim that the US just wants to shoot down your missiles headed toward europe? is that a bad thing? plus if you look at the arc paths the missiles from russia would take toward the US or europe, it is impossible for the US base in poland to shoot the russian missiles down, but it is directly on the arc path from iran to the US. thus is the reasoning...so why the threat against poland if you're not a bully?

[Ecvi 0]

If it is fair, all disputes are empty. In two three months all will come to an end. War and sanctions are not necessary to simple people but only to the governments, at me it is a lot of acquaintances in Europe, and they the same wish to live easy further. And all the truth about the conflict, is known by those who perished in South Ossetia and remained without native, at home. Let's live in peace and friendship, freeze in nuclear winter, there is no desire))))))

Barbarossa Patriot Posts: 1329 Joined: 08/03/2006 each phrase I can prove)

[Ecvi 0]

Oh. Nearly has not forgotten. South Ossetia and Abkhazia, as a part of the USSR, were recognised republics in structure Georgia, and at disintegration of the USSR had the right to independence, and Georgia simply violently has not let out them. And still, at set of citizens of the Russian Federation had a rest there, and there were economic relations. As, phrases that is time to recognise independence of republics as a part of the Russian Federation here sounded, be not too lazy and find that the president of the Chechen republic has answered this Ramzan Kadyrav,

[fukuda 351]

However, I do not understand this fascination people have with Russia, in particular, blatant Russophiles.quote>

World is not divided into russophobes and russophiles.

Honestly Iam one of the few who say it takes two to tango. Georgia decided to set the wood on fire and Russia decided to put the gas on the wood. So if WWIII does happen I wouldn't be too surprised.quote>

Agreed, we should blame both, not just one side.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Yeah_Right 2]

Originally posted by: mightygoose im fed up of western media creative obvious anti-russian bias in its populace... the georgians started the fight, the russians responded to defend its citizens, the americans are the ones using "military hardware to aid the humanitarian effort", they have stuck their equipment right in the firing line should aggression reccur thus the americans will have an excuse to go after the russians outright. personally i think it is the americans that are acting as the "bully" and the whole of NATO is so in bed with them that they will happily go along with the propagandist crap....quote>

 

amen

[pnorrell 4]

Originally posted by: Ecvi As, phrases that is time to recognise independence of republics as a part of the Russian Federation here sounded, be not too lazy and find that the president of the Chechen republic has answered this Ramzan Kadyrav,quote>

Thanks for participating here, Ecvi. It's not easy to get into a debate like this with the use of an online translator - if anything is unclear, just ask.

I read Kadyrov's comments - basically that Chechnya legitimized its membership in the Russian Federation through a referendum. Sorry, but I seriously doubt anyone outside Russia actually believes in the legitimacy of a referendum held in Chechnya (anywhere in Russia, but particularly Chechnya) after the second Chechnya war.

What happened was a business deal between Kadyrov and his father and Putin - something like "you stay loyal to Russia and we'll allow you to do whatever you want in Chechnya." With so much of the population dead or in exile, it was not a difficult matter for Kadyrov to then put together a sham referendum to validate the deal - buying votes with cash or through intimidation of the few remaining, exhausted and desperately poor people there.

For me, the idea of "kill everyone who opposes and then hold a referendum" is no more valid than what Abkhazia and South Ossetia had wanted to do - "Ethnically cleanse everyone who opposes and then hold a referendum." As it turned out, however, they didn't even need a referendum. Russia recognized them without even a superficial attempt at democratic process.

Mark my words - there will be more fighting in Chechnya within our lifetimes. Kadyrov and Putin have just negotiated a break, which serves them both at the moment. A new generation of Chechen boys will grow up hating Russia just as much as their fathers and, when they're able to fire a gun, it wil all start again. Also, I am quite sure there are people in Washington and in London and in Riyad who are discussing ways to pour fuel on that fire in the coming years.