Georgia and Russia basically at war

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

Maybe I'm wrong, but I always took it to mean nothing more than the systematic annihilation of a group of people of X background living where you don't want them to.  Never associated it with giving them a choice of leaving to save their lives. quote>

Rather than quote Wiki, let's go with the definition on the Britannica Online Encyclopedia:

ethnic cleansing

war crime

the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.quote>

Depends.  If you want to be a part of Russia and not Georgia, this could be seen as being somewhat similar to the colonial fight for independence, only instead of being independent, they want to join the Russian nation. quote>

If they want to be a part of Russia, can they not just go there?  I'll admit I'm not familiar with Russian immigration policy but Russia seems to be sympathetic to them so I imagine (perhaps incorrectly) that there are some options here.

It sounds like the old "I want to leave the country but I want to take the land with me" approach.  I never did understand that one but apparently that's just me.

I do see a parallel to the colonial fight for independence.  One could argue that, if the French hadn't "stuck their noses in where they didn't belong", the colonists would not have won that fight.  But how are the people here colonists?  Haven't they been there for centuries?

  "It wasn't uncommon to walk into a tribe and find that it hated this other tribe over here because one of them stole a goat from Grandpa over 30 years ago and the entire village has been enraged about it since."  (Not an exact quote, but reasonably close.)quote>

That is very sad.  and scary.     This is what they spend their time and energy on? 

[coolotter88 2]

back when goats were worth a million dollars adjusted for inflation of course.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: hym

Maybe I'm wrong, but I always took it to mean nothing more than the systematic annihilation of a group of people of X background living where you don't want them to.  Never associated it with giving them a choice of leaving to save their lives. quote>

Rather than quote Wiki, let's go with the definition on the Britannica Online Encyclopedia:

ethnic cleansing

war crime

the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.quote>

quote>

quote>

[Yoman3 5]

Well yesterday while I agree with Georgia I understood the Russian position, but the air strikes on strategic targets within Georgia, such as the Black Sea port of Poti, or the pipeline, those attacks say it all. Both are major oil transit routes that bypass Russia. These are not targets you attack if you are trying to protect Russian peacekeepers. Personally, I think that the Georgians don't stand a chance in an all out war, but would put up a very tough fight, and very effectivly. They have upgraded their equipment, are training more like a professional army, and have combat experiance from Iraq. But once again, Georiga has about 250 tanks, Russia has 23,000. One concern I see is that the Black Sea Fleet has sortied. They could blockade Georiga, but first they are going to dock in that other break away providence which I won't try to spell, I'd try to hit those ships while they are in port and most exposed with Su-25 ground attack aircraft, which Georgia has a good amount of (though nothing compared to the Russian Air Force). I see that the Georgian SAMs are getting a good number of Russian aircraft. Including a Tu-22M Backfire bomber, and that shoot down Russia has admited. That is a very valuable asset to Russia and they are not expendable.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: hymWell, I didn't look up the dictionary (or encyclopedia in this case) definition of ethnic cleansing, but at the same time, I can't remember reports of ethnic cleansing without allegations of executions going along with it.  Maybe there have been, but I've always heard it associated with systematic annihilation to some level or another.quote>

Killing people is a part of ethnic cleansing, but generally the purpose is just to get rid of a certain ethnicity, and it's not important wether they have to be deported, killed, or flee on their own. If you're aiming to kill of a population, it's genocide. Compare for example Milo

[SimFox 804]

Well I when I said Americans i sort of meant US administration...

 

What we have here is a power play of two opportunists Putin and Saakashvili. Both bent on their own almost Devine (in their heads that is) status of national saviors. And if Putin is sort of dry apparatchik, Saakashvili is a Con Artist supreme! Man doesn’t stop for a second to lie in your face, just about anything. Incredibly confident that he wouldn’t be taken to account for his statements. First he tells of personally witnessing air attack in some unnamed “small town market” at the time we was actually in Parliament and here is another revelation from Mr. Saakashvili - in the his speech in English shown on BBC World he says (and here is a direct word to word quote : "... we only responded with our arm forces and with our fire after 150 Russian tanks and APCs went through Russian border and into our territory." i guess the more ostentatiously he lies the more people should believe him. The attitude worthy of Dr. Goebbels himself.

 

Russian armor crossed border only in the morning AFTER the attack on South Ossetia by Georgian forces in the morning when it's capital city (well more like a small town) already in ruins after 140hours of Non-stop bombardment by MRL GRAD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K51_Grad) of Georgian army. When hundreds of civilians were already dead in their burned down homes. Well, I guess Mr Saakashvili doesn't count it as a fire or armed forces. Not sure what that could be called then...

 

The more it and particularly HE goes on the worse the whole thing looks. I understand Why US had changed they official wording from Just demand of cease fire (as voiced by Secretary Condoliza Rice), to restoring Status Quo of August 6th, as later voiced by President Bush. This restoration means full withdrawal of Georgian Forces from the region.

[SimFox 804]

And here is a little illustration of how does Georgian “democratic” and “western” like regime operates. It is like a game - find 7 same features:

these two photographed were used world over allegedly showing victims of Russian atrocities. Check out characters pointed by Red and Blue arrows. Well is it Oscar level performance or what?

[Chicago-Chris 0]

The United States won't get involved by the means of troops or military actions, but in money, intellegence and equipment. The United States has already agreed to help fly Georgian troops home from Iraq. I hope NATO and the CIA put up a proxy war the likes of the Soviet/Afghanistan war.

[Chicago-Chris 0]

The United States won't get involved by the means of troops or military actions, but in money, intellegence and equipment. The United States has already agreed to help fly Georgian troops home from Iraq. I hope NATO and the CIA put up a proxy war the likes of the Soviet/Afghanistan war.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: SimFox these two photographed were used world over allegedly showing victims of Russian atrocities. Check out characters pointed by Red and Blue arrows. Well is it Oscar level performance or what?quote>

I'll give you that. They're probably even from Hezbollah I know it's though on the reporters in war zones, but I don't get why the desk even allows such footage anymore. I remember seeing the topmost picture from a report from Gori, but the two guys in the middle of an open spot, with the blocks pretty far away seemed odd in those nice clothes... (though I appreciate how the living guy chose approriate pants for the topmost picture).

[torontotransit 2]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

The real issue though is Russia's aggression. RUSSIA has backed the rebels in both Abkhazia and South Ossetia. RUSSIA has violated Georgian territory by moving into the rebel held regions for unauthorised "peacekeeping" (i.e. taking care of the occupied areas so the rebels can move against Georgian forces. Now RUSSIAN tanks have invaded Georgian territory. The whole reason this is happening is that Russia does not want a NATO state on it's frontiers. Therefore they are trying to intimidate Georgia to stop.quote>

Exactly, Russia is trying to play at being a superpower and bullying it neighbour's through various means ranging from force to restriction of energy.

i got $30 on russia to winquote>

(Q)Somehow I don't think that Europe, Georgia or the United States will allow Russia to just invade an independent nation without any due cause, simply to steal land. Which is what this amounts toquote>

[torontotransit 2]

Please, no american should talk about disrespecting international law, especially after what they did in kosovo. And invading a sovereign country, give me a break, perhaps you've heard of Iraq and Afganistan. What's really beyond me is why does the US have to meddle in everything. And to put all this in perspective, all reports and stories can be tilted to mean what you want, who really knows exactly whats going on. Obviously only the ossetians and georgians dying really do. And actually im not anti-american, but i just cant understand why the US does all this stuff all over the world. BTW, wouldn't the US protect ITS citizens if for example the French government killed them (the US ppl), even if on French tritorry. Im pretty sure you'd start an all out war too!!

[Fresh Prince of Wmbg 44]

Originally posted by: torontotransit Please, no american should talk about disrespecting international law, especially after what they did in kosovo. And invading a sovereign country, give me a break, perhaps you've heard of Iraq and Afganistan. What's really beyond me is why does the US have to meddle in everything. And to put all this in perspective, all reports and stories can be tilted to mean what you want, who really knows exactly whats going on. Obviously only the ossetians and georgians dying really do. And actually im not anti-american, but i just cant understand why the US does all this stuff all over the world. BTW, wouldn't the US protect ITS citizens if for example the French government killed them (the US ppl), even if on French tritorry. Im pretty sure you'd start an all out war too!!quote>

 

Our government likes to find excuses to be in other nation's affairs because it distracts  the people from the turmoil we face back home.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: torontotransit wouldn't the US protect ITS citizens if for example the French government killed them (the US ppl), even if on French tritorry. Im pretty sure you'd start an all out war too!!quote>

That has happened dozens of times before. Except for Afghanistan and maybe the Caribbean invasions, most actions taken to directly preserve American interest have been interventions.

And according to the BBC, Georgia is pulling out of South Ossetia, while Ukraine might be blocking the Black Sea fleet's return to their base. Meanwhile the Russians have also started bombing the airport of the capital Tbilisi.

[BurroDiablo 222]

SimFox - Wow, staged photo's? Sort makes you distrust even the most valid of sources... maybe theres no such thing as a valid source anymore, but ho hum, anything that makes the West take a stance. I've always felt it strange that somebody, who was greiving over the dead, would let themselves be willingly Photographed... "Hey, your son just died. Well, let me take your picture so I can return home and sell it for money!"... if somebody did that to me i'd rip their throat out.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Staged photos happened in the 2006 Hezbollah War and will happen in other wars, including this one. It's a fact of modern warfare.

I do not believe that there is no such thing as a valid source. You just can't tell which is valid and which is not without detailed analysis.

Contrary to the Americans, I don't believe in resolving every war with status quo ante bellum, as that puts all the elements that caused the war back in place to cause a second one. It doesn't work.

Invading a sovereign country? The Bush Administration condemns invading a small state after what they did with Iraq and Afghanistan? Double standard going on there. They believe that America can do anything it wants, whereas Russia deserves international condemnation for doing the same thing they did.

I've also heard that the Security Council is going to meet and discuss it. I don't think that any of their resolutions are going to work. Russia has veto power in the Council, does it not?

My attitude for the war is, "May the Best Army Win".

- Patricius Maximus

[SimFox 804]

Any war is a horror, while we sit here and all around war in our soft chairs in front of our computers and verbally attack each other for what is basically our own amusement real people in less fortunate (read less aggressive countries) die, to literally be an entertainment for us.

In this key I think it is ESPECIALLY important to prevent speculation on all those noble ideas. Already their heavy abuse had greatly devalued them in great part of the world. Chinese, for instance (i mean those in china) already have almost allergic reaction when they hear words like freedom and human rights. For they clearly see how those are used as labels and coversheet by the west to push it's own agenda. As a result West has practically lost the opportunity to built ONE world based on trust. Young in China are MORE anti-western then older generation. Because old generation had been just listening to voice of America and were very skeptical to own governments propaganda. They believed that west is free and fair and own government brutal, corrupt and oppressive. They believed that it enough (if only opportunity present itself) to step into this world of milk and honey and all trouble, humiliation and fear will fade away... but they children and grand children having the means nowadays do step into that world, and what they see? Incredible humiliation that starts the moment they apply for visa. Prejudice and double standards when they finally get here. They see how Western media manipulates information and still talks about freedom of the press...

And this is disaster. Most of the western sureness of being right is just primitive ethnocentrism fortified by brute military force used in XXIIIV - early XX centuries. But balance of power changes. And at some point new strong guy (with good memory of all mistreatment and humiliation) will point who is the boss now...

[coolotter88 2]

those 2 made it onto the cover of the NYTimes

"a man mourns over a relative" or something like that.

[Herodotus 2]

Everyone here is under the impression that the U.N. and international law can stop Russia. Unfortunately the U.N. is utterly powerless in this case, unless you want WWIII. The U.N. can yell, scream, and throw it's little arms in protest and it won't to anything to truly stop Russia. Sure they can pass trade embargoes but Europe is wary of Russia and has no will to fight. Russia's economy and military has recovered since it's fall at the end of the cold war. The U.S. will definably not get involved because of our already ongoing wars and our lack of reasons to get involved. Ultimately Russia could invade and annex Georgia and all you would hear is some fancy rhetoric from the U.N. and Europe and the war would be over.

[sim-fan192 4]

Originally posted by: Aontan

Originally posted by: sim-fan192 However Russia has become an 'ally' of the US in the 29 years since the Cold War ended so things will get very interesting and I think NATO will join in if confrontation speads. quote>

 

The Cold War was still ongoing in 1979. quote>

 

Oops. I meant 19.

[sim-fan192 4]

If 1, just 1 shot is exchanged between NATO and Russia the USA will get involved equaling WW3 so personally im glad this happened BEFORE Georgia joined NATO. However this is very sad that so many are being killed and nobody will step in. Luckily this won't even be close to a WW3, but a war is a war and nothing can change that.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Georgia 'calls Ossetia ceasefire'

Georgia insists that all its forces are now outside South Ossetia

Georgia says it has ordered a ceasefire in South Ossetia and offered to hold peace talks with Moscow.

But Russia denied that exchanges of fire had stopped, and continued to bomb targets near Georgia's capital Tbilisi, including the airport, reports said.

Earlier Georgia said its troops had pulled out of the breakaway region and that Russian forces were in control of its capital, Tskhinvali.

Thousands of civilians have fled - it is not clear how many have been killed.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.

Peace mission

Russian jets were still carrying out bombing raids late on Sunday. Witnesses said jets had hit Tbilisi International Airport, as well as a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.

See a map of the region

A Georgian official said Russian planes had also bombed the western town of Zugdidi and Georgian-controlled territory inside Abkhazia. The claims could not be independently verified.

The attack which reportedly hit the airport came only a few hours before the scheduled arrival of French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, on a peace mission.

The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk Antonio Guterres UN High Commissioner for Refugees Challenging situation for Moscow Crisis day-by-day Q&A: Violence in South Ossetia

Meanwhile, the United Nations Security Council began meeting for a fourth day on Sunday to discuss the conflict. It has so far failed to agree on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.

Clashes in South Ossetia itself were reported to be less intense on Sunday, as Russian forces took control and Georgian troops drew back.

Local residents fleeing the area on Sunday morning told the BBC that Tskhinvali was relatively quiet.

Later, however, the BBC's Richard Galpin described a real sense of panic on Sunday night in the Georgian town of Gori, near the South Ossetia, amid fears that Russian troops were about to march on the town.

He had been warned by the interior ministry to leave Gori, only to find that the road to Tbilisi was crammed with cars full of fleeing civilians.

'Disproportionate force'

Georgia's announcement of its ceasefire came in a statement from the foreign ministry, stating that Georgia "today stopped firing in the South Ossetian conflict zone and is ready to begin talks with Russia on a ceasefire and cessation of hostilities".

It said a note had been passed to the Russian embassy in Georgia to that effect.

Mikhail Saakashvili claims Russia has not respected the ceasefire

But a Russian foreign ministry official was quoted by Interfax saying "our information does not confirm the Georgian statement".

"There are indications that exchanges of fire are continuing and the Georgian forces have not been fully withdrawn from the conflict zone," he said.

The United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR) called on the parties to the conflict to grant safe passage for thousands of civilians trying to escape the war zone.

The UNHCR estimates that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia, including South Ossetia, while Russia has said that a further 30,000 people have fled north into the Russian province of North Ossetia.

ARMED FORCES COMPARED GEORGIA Total personnel: 26,900 Main battle tanks (T-72): 82 Armoured personnel carriers: 139 Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95 RUSSIA Total personnel: 641,000 Main battle tanks (various): 6,717 Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388 Combat aircraft (various): 1,206 Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550 Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

"The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk," UN High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres said.

"It is essential that humanitarian agencies be able to reach the affected and the displaced."

Meanwhile tensions were rising in Georgia's other breakaway region, Abkhazia.

The leader of the separatist government there, Sergei Bagapsh, said he had ordered a military operation to clear Georgian forces out of Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge, and gave them a deadline to leave.

Georgia has accused Russia of landing 4,000 more troops in Abkhazia via the Black Sea. The separatists said Georgia had deployed a similar number of soldiers south of the Abkhaz border.

The US has described Russia's actions as "dangerous and disproportionate".

US Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey said that if the Russian escalation continued, it would have a "significant" long-term impact on relations between the Moscow and Washington.

Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said Russia had violated Georgia's territorial integrity in South Ossetia and condemned the "disproportionate use of force".

The Russian radio station Echo Moscow reported that two journalists, including a photographer for the Russian news agency Itar-Tass, were shot dead by separatists after entering South Ossetia.

quote>

Georgia move fails to halt raids

Georgia insists that all its forces are now outside South Ossetia

Russia has continued air raids deep inside Georgia, after it rejected Tbilisi's announcement that it had called a ceasefire and wanted talks.

Russian jets bombed targets near Georgia's capital Tbilisi, including the airport, reports said.

Earlier Georgia said its troops had pulled out of the breakaway region of South Ossetia and Russia was in control of its capital, Tskhinvali.

Thousands of civilians have fled - it is not clear how many have been killed.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.

Peace mission

Russian jets were still carrying out bombing raids late on Sunday. Witnesses said jets had hit Tbilisi International Airport, as well as a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.

See a map of the region

A Georgian official said Russian planes had also bombed the western town of Zugdidi and Georgian-controlled territory inside Abkhazia. The claims could not be independently verified.

The attack which reportedly hit the airport came only a few hours before the scheduled arrival of French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, on a peace mission.

The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk Antonio Guterres UN High Commissioner for Refugees Challenging situation for Moscow Crisis day-by-day Q&A: Violence in South Ossetia

Meanwhile, the United Nations Security Council began meeting for a fourth day on Sunday to discuss the conflict. It has so far failed to agree on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.

Clashes in South Ossetia itself were reported to be less intense on Sunday, as Russian forces took control and Georgian troops drew back.

Local residents fleeing the area on Sunday morning told the BBC that Tskhinvali was relatively quiet.

Later, however, the BBC's Richard Galpin described a real sense of panic on Sunday night in the Georgian town of Gori, near the South Ossetia, amid fears that Russian troops were about to march on the town.

He had been warned by the interior ministry to leave Gori, only to find that the road to Tbilisi was crammed with cars full of fleeing civilians.

'Disproportionate force'

Georgia's announcement of its ceasefire came in a statement from the foreign ministry, stating that Georgia "today stopped firing in the South Ossetian conflict zone and is ready to begin talks with Russia on a ceasefire and cessation of hostilities".

It said a note had been passed to the Russian embassy in Georgia to that effect.

Mikhail Saakashvili claims Russia has not respected the ceasefire

But a Russian foreign ministry official was quoted by Interfax saying "our information does not confirm the Georgian statement".

"There are indications that exchanges of fire are continuing and the Georgian forces have not been fully withdrawn from the conflict zone," he said.

The United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR) called on the parties to the conflict to grant safe passage for thousands of civilians trying to escape the war zone.

The UNHCR estimates that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia, including South Ossetia, while Russia has said that a further 30,000 people have fled north into the Russian province of North Ossetia.

ARMED FORCES COMPARED GEORGIA Total personnel: 26,900 Main battle tanks (T-72): 82 Armoured personnel carriers: 139 Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95 RUSSIA Total personnel: 641,000 Main battle tanks (various): 6,717 Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388 Combat aircraft (various): 1,206 Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550 Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments

"The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk," UN High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres said.

"It is essential that humanitarian agencies be able to reach the affected and the displaced."

Meanwhile tensions were rising in Georgia's other breakaway region, Abkhazia.

The leader of the separatist government there, Sergei Bagapsh, said he had ordered a military operation to clear Georgian forces out of Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge, and gave them a deadline to leave.

Georgia has accused Russia of landing 4,000 more troops in Abkhazia via the Black Sea. The separatists said Georgia had deployed a similar number of soldiers south of the Abkhaz border.

The US has described Russia's actions as "dangerous and disproportionate".

US Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey said that if the Russian escalation continued, it would have a "significant" long-term impact on relations between the Moscow and Washington.

Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said Russia had violated Georgia's territorial integrity in South Ossetia and condemned the "disproportionate use of force".

The Russian radio station Echo Moscow reported that two journalists, including a photographer for the Russian news agency Itar-Tass, were shot dead by separatists after entering South Ossetia.quote>

[belfastuniguy 18]

Britons warned to leave Georgia

Hundreds of civilians are believed to have been killed in South Ossetia

The Foreign Office is advising British nationals in Georgia to leave unless there is an urgent need to stay.

Officials earlier advised against all non-essential travel to the conflict-hit country, but stepped up their warning after further fighting.

Violence has erupted between Russian and Georgian forces over control of the breakaway South Ossetia region.

Gordon Brown held talks with international leaders on Sunday in a bid to create pressure for a ceasefire.

A Downing Street spokesman said the UK prime minister had "detailed discussions" with the French President Nicolas Sarkozy and had also spoken to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon.

He added: "The foreign secretary has been in touch with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and EU foreign ministers.

"We will continue to press for international action to help bring the conflict to an end and we urge both parties to agree an immediate ceasefire."

Air services

On Friday, British Ambassador to Georgia Denis Keefe wrote to British citizens in the country advising them to stock up on water, food and fuel.

He said then that there was "no immediate cause for alarm" and British nationals were not being advised to leave the country.

It is wise to [leave] while some air services are still available and the border remains open Foreign Office statement Dancer's pain over crisis at home

However, on Sunday the Foreign Office issued new advice.

It said in a statement: "If you or your family have no urgent need to remain in Georgia you should leave as soon as possible.

"It is wise to do so while some air services are still available and the border remains open."

The Foreign Office is also advising against all travel to the separatist regions of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and the upper Kodori.

It said serious fighting was continuing in South Ossetia and there had been aerial bombardment of Georgian military installations outside the conflict zone at the Black Sea port of Poti and the military bases at Vaziani, Senaki and Marneuli.

'Eerily quiet'

British charity worker Sian Davis, from Reading, told the BBC the mood in the Georgian capital Tbilisi was subdued.

She said: "Tbilisi looks fairly normal. It's pretty calm, but it's really, really quiet, eerily quiet, and last night the streets were empty, the restaurants were empty.

"Everyone was either at home or had packed up and moved out of the city.

"People are really, really scared. Even on the bus, there's people on the bus, but no-one's speaking to each other, no-one's joking, no-one's laughing and this is not Georgian normality, because Georgian normality is noisy and crazy and people laughing and joking.

"This is the problem - people are panicking."

A few of us are still here, but should the situation become a lot worse very quickly, we will have to leave Sian Davis British charity worker in Georgia

Miss Davies, who is taking part in a European Voluntary Service project in Georgia, said she knew of Britons who were already fleeing the country.

"They are advising us to go and get to the Armenian border," she said. "A couple of my British friends have done that already.

"A few of us are still here, but should the situation become a lot worse very quickly, we will have to leave as well."

Mr Miliband has said the government is "deeply concerned" by the violence in Georgia.

He has held talks with European foreign ministers and with US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice over how to respond to the crisis.

Based on Russian and South Ossetian estimates, the death toll on the South Ossetian side is believed to be at least 1,500, mostly civilians. Georgian casualty figures range from 82 dead, including 37 civilians, to a figure of about 130 dead.quote>

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

Invading a sovereign country? The Bush Administration condemns invading a small state after what they did with Iraq and Afghanistan? Double standard going on there. They believe that America can do anything it wants, whereas Russia deserves international condemnation for doing the same thing they did.quote>

I felt the same way. The US ambassador to the UN said that "the days of Overthrowing European regimes through force is at an end"... not to point out Georgia is in ASIA, but I like the stategic use of Europe in that statement, like the rest of the world is doomed forever to be a conflict ridden morass.

Another thing that annoys me though is that people, not everyone but some, are making this about Oil... again. Oil is a scapegoat for everything these days... even if there IS a rational explaination for the outbreak of a Conflict people are quick to jump to the conclusion that Oil is the #1 source of the worlds problems. Its being demonised like Rock music!

[belfastuniguy 18]

Another thing that annoys me though is that people, not everyone but some, are making this about Oil... again.quote>

Some are, very limited though and its more about the actual pipelines that transverse Georgia, which carry gas and oil.

[SimFox 804]

Well, France24 said that black sea, and Abkhazian coast in particularly is rich with oil... And that is supposedly respectable TV channel, face of FRANCE for the world

[panthersimcity4 162]

Wow, those pictures are fake? I find it funny how that one "dead" guy is wearing the same shirt in the other picture

Originally posted by: torontotransit Please, no american should talk about disrespecting international law, especially after what they did in kosovo. And invading a sovereign country, give me a break, perhaps you've heard of Iraq and Afganistan. quote>

Well, we (meaning Americans who aren't sheep and believe everything the government spews at us) can talk about it, just not the dumb politicians who make these decisions supposedly "in our best interest"

[pnorrell 4]

Originally posted by: SimFox

What we have here is a power play of two opportunists Putin and Saakashvili. Both bent on their own almost Devine (in their heads that is) status of national saviors. And if Putin is sort of dry apparatchik, Saakashvili is a Con Artist supreme! Man doesn’t stop for a second to lie in your face, just about anything. Incredibly confident that he wouldn’t be taken to account for his statements. First he tells of personally witnessing air attack in some unnamed “small town market” at the time we was actually in Parliament and here is another revelation from Mr. Saakashvili - in the his speech in English shown on BBC World he says (and here is a direct word to word quote : "... we only responded with our arm forces and with our fire after 150 Russian tanks and APCs went through Russian border and into our territory." i guess the more ostentatiously he lies the more people should believe him. The attitude worthy of Dr. Goebbels himself.

 Russian armor crossed border only in the morning AFTER the attack on South Ossetia by Georgian forces in the morning when it's capital city (well more like a small town) already in ruins after 140hours of Non-stop bombardment by MRL GRAD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K51_Grad) of Georgian army. When hundreds of civilians were already dead in their burned down homes. Well, I guess Mr Saakashvili doesn't count it as a fire or armed forces. Not sure what that could be called then...

quote>

Greetings to all from Tbilisi...

I thought this might make the current events board here and I wondered what people were saying...

My sympathies are with the Georgian side but, as much as I hate to say it, the post above is correct. I noticed that the Georgians began the assault, then there was word that the Russian armored column had entered the country. Later, I heard Saakashvili describe the opposite on BBC. Hard to know what is really going on but judging by the flow of information I'd say the Georgian assault came first. Of course, the Georgians claim they were provoked into the assault by continued fire from the separatists. Again - who knows...

Let me also point out that the Russians were claiming to be in control of Tskhinvali on Friday night (I watched it myself on Vesti - Russian news channel) when in fact we now know the Georgians only relinquished control of the town this morning. The Russians are denying bombing civilian targets in Georgia, when I know for a fact they have bombed Poti and apartment buildings in Gori. I also remember one year ago when a Russian plane invaded Georgian airspace and launched a missile. The Georgians had the missile and the radar footage of the plane taking off in Russia, flying into Georgia, launching the missile and flying back. An international commission investigated and confirmed... and the Russians denied it like a child caught red-handed and saying "it wasn't me." I also recall Mi-24 helicopters attacking Georgian buildings in the Khodori Gorge - again radar confirmed their origin and again flat denials. Then there was the destruction of the Georgian reconnaissance drone. That one was actually captured on videotape and the Russians still denied it.

So... Let's not point accusatory fingers for public dishonesty (coming from a citizen of the country that fabricated a case for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction at the UN).

Really tough to tell what Saakashvili was thinking. Among Georgians, that is the main question, repeated over and over again. Did he not think the Russians would react this way? If not, he was the only one... Did he think they could win in a straight-out fight? Surely not... Did he think the Americans would come to his aid? Unfortunately most Georgians are only now realizing the absurdity of that idea. Why didn't he blow up the Roki Tunnel and prevent the Russians from entering in the first place? I can't imagine. There was a time early on when Georgian planes controlled the skies and were carrying out widespread air attacks on separatist positions. Couldn't they have hit the tunnel?

I will offer my own view of the underlying cause of all this, however - Russian imperialism in its near abroad. Saakashvili may be a hothead and a loose cannon, but the resentment over Russian support to Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria is not Saakashvili's alone. Russia has armed what amount to criminal gangs that run these enclaves and has tolerated all manner of illegal activity to go on, from arms smuggling, to counterfeiting, to the drug trade, to human trafficking. When these statelets originally achieved defacto independence, it was due to Russian armed intervention and that independence is maintained only by continued Russian support. It doesn't matter that Russia says it recognizes the territorial integrity of Georgia and Moldova or that it doesn't formally recognize the separatist states - it keeps their dictators in power and keeps the conflicts frozen. Why would Russia do this? Divide and conquer. Keep these small states unstable, weak and poor and one day a greater Russian empire will be reborn. If anyone wants to tell me these enclaves are being protected because they are Russian citizens, after Russia issued citizenship to them en-masse despite officially recognizing them as part of other, sovereign countries, then I'll say you have been drinking the propaganda-flavored cool aid for too long.

I realize there are a couple hundred million people in Latin America that feel the exact same way about the US. The truth is, if this situation were going on in Latin America, the US reaction would be exactly the same, including the bombing and disproportionate military response. Maybe this is just the way it is in the backyards of great powers, but it's not right...

[Za 164]

Good to hear from someone on that side of the conflict, pnorrell. Unfortunately, I'm sure this is the first time many Americans have ever heard of the nation of Georgia...sad it had to be this way.

It was kind of moving today when Nino Salukvadze (GEO) and Natalia Paderina (RUS) both won medals in the same event. Shortly before the ceremony, they embraced and exchanged kind words.

[Karybdis 34]

Thank god for pnorrell showing up. I was afraid that none of the involved people in the area were on here.

Anyway, from my point of view, the driving force is just plain ultranationalism. Note that this is probably the reason I hate strong nationalism/patriotism so much.

Russia considers the people in South Ossetia to be Ossetians, and Ossetians to be Russians. Therefore they are defending Russians from the Georgians who want to control the fate of the Russians. They see votes in favour of leaving Georgia and say "look, our fellow brothers have decided their fate". Note that even if (not saying they don't) the people don't believe this on average in Russia, the government does. Hence giving South Ossetians russian passports once they took over control. Russia has slowly been Russianizing Abkhazia and South Ossetia for the last decade. Maybe they're even doing some doublethink here and they didn't originally believe they were Russians. Maybe the whole thing was just to keep Georgia weak. Who knows. I think they've convinced themselves by repeating it too much though.

Georgia considers the people of South Ossetia to be Georgians, and since Russia intervened to stop the war, then forced through peace deals as a result, they don't recognize the force there as fully legitimate. Also the fact that the Russian Passports that 90% of South Ossetians have were often just given to them after the 'peacekeepers' arrived, doesn't help the case. So what Saakashvili probably though was "criminal georgians, occupying Georgian territory, aided by an imperialist power(russia), and trying to steal our territory". Therefore whatever started the fighting is plenty of excuse to walk back in. I bet he didn't even consider very strongly what to do after that point. Just that it had to be done "now".

Who really started the fight is probably irrelevant at this point, as it was pretty obviously going to happen at some point. Both sides contributed, and there was a general lack of common sense at work. Of course strong nationalism can do that to people. The peace was artificial, and enforced unilaterally against the will of the country that owned the territory in the first place. Nobody really wanted a peace deal unless they got exactly what they demanded, and so a war has broken out. meh

I agree with news articles that have stated that Russia really wasn't expecting this at the moment. It probably has been thrown off guard and is responding too strongly. It also probably has to do somewhat with anger at George Soros for partially funding the overthrow of the last Georgian president, which really rocked the boat in the caucasus. This being seen as a chance to repair things, and so they're responding too eagerly.

What will probably happen is that Russia will win the war, and claim both South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be independant until they can hold a vote on independance and then probably another vote on joining a political union with Russia. The rest of the world will not accept this, and consider both to be still a part of georgia, as will georgia itself. And in another 15 years, there will (probably almost) be another war between the two, except with Georgia as a NATO member (which this will inevitably push it to become in the near future). Since Russia is outmatched militarily by NATO, that will probably end in a ceasefire in about a day, rather than an actual outright war. I don't think the Russian military are idiots and I'm sure they know they can't win against NATO military forces, even as close to Russia as Georgia is. Nor will anybody use nukes, because nobody is stupid enough to blow up the planet over two territories constituting 250000 people.

I consider that to be the most likely scenario. Of course russia could accept a ceasefire and things could return to status quo until the next war, or the world could accept that Georgia is separated permanently (unlikely), or Russia could lose (also unlikely), or the two sides could agree to negotiate a peace deal finally (no clue how likely that is).