Should schools should have school uniforms?

[your_adress_here 11]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: Micah

General suggestion: Becareful of what you write in here. Giving out personal information such as school names is an example.quote>

Micah has an excellent point.  Do not give out identifying information that could help some wacko locate you.   We ban wackos when we find them but we never know who is lurking.quote>

Whatever, I don't care if some nutjob wants to hunt me down. Heck, I find it kind of flattering.

[SimRabbit 48]

I was on a school where you had to wear uniforms. White Polo shirts Monday through Thrursday and any of the three school schoolrs on firday but with khaki, or dark blue pants. And worst of all, you have to tuck in your shirt and you can't wear a hoody and if you do you have to tuck it in. imagine a SouthPole hoody tucked in? And your pants should be all the way up near your belly button.

but anyways i later moved to a school where you can basically do whatever you want, teachers don't care. what really cares to them

are their biweekly checks. anyways

The pros of using uniforms are:

you can't tell who is on what subculture (ex emo, goth etc)

everybody looks the same, you can tell who is richer

school looks cleaner

cons

you look stupid and nerdy

you have no choice

you can't show off your new clothes

sometimes uniforms get stinky if used for more than two days.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy It does improve marks, but clearly if your druggie then it won't make a difference, it improves the attention and marks of normal students not those duped up on drink and drugs.quote>

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that uniforms would make me more distracted. Because I'd be too busy thinking "damn it, I can't stand this {expletive}ing uniform" and running through fantasy scenarios of burning it and doing horrible things to the people who made me wear it in my head to be focused on learning.

And I daresay other people might have similar problems.

But, see, that's becuase it's not the norm here. Over there, you guys grew up with the idea and are accepting of it. Over here, we're not. So uniforms wouldn't work here like they work in other places.

Again: America =/= Europe. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it would work for us.

Originally posted by: Micah

I don't see how wearing uniforms will make a kid get better grades.quote>

Because the argument can be made that those without uniforms can have shirts or pants that can cause a distraction or disruption in class which, in turn, can hurt their grades.quote>

But see, that's why public schools have dress codes. Where I went to school, you weren't allowed to wear a sleeveless shirt or a bare midriff shirt without something over it, nor were you allowed to wear a skirt shorter than your fingertips with your arms relaxed at your side. Enforcement of that dress code was virtually nonexistent, but that's a different issue.

Actually, the one aspect of the dress code which was enforced (and profusely so) was that you weren't allowed to have something covering your head (like a hat, hood, or du-rag).

That kind of thing is a different story, though. It's acceptable to say "you can't wear X, Y, or Z" so long as there's a good reason why not. But that's not what a uniform is. A uniform is saying "you have to wear A, B, and C". See the difference?

On another post:

positives:

1. don't have to worry about what to wearquote>

As if you really have all that much to worry about in the first place. And besides, if you don't like the uniform, then you have a lot more to worry about.

2. don't have to waste money on a lot of clothesquote>

I fail to see exactly how that works. You don't wear your uniform all day, or on the weekends or during holidays. Therefore, the uniform won't decrease the number of normal clothes in your wardrobe. It adds to it rather than cutting into it.

3 don't have to worry about looking cool quote>

What rule is there that says you have to worry about looking cool in normal clothes? You should wear what you like wearing, not what other people think you should be wearing. If they don't like it, that's their problem. If they won't be your friends unless you wear stuff that's "cool", they're not really your friends and aren't the kind of people you ought to be associating with. People need to learn to like you for who you are. Never compromise your individuality for the sake of conforming to what others expect of you. You're living a lie if you do that.

4. prevents other students from harassing,or ridiculing others on their dress,fashion,style,etc.quote>

I addressed this already.

5. makes things more professional quote>

It makes you look more professional, certainly. But I don't really see how it in and of itself makes the environmen

[GingerBlokey 30]

Wearing a school uniform never bothered me, infact I felt proud to walk to school wearing the uniform of the best damned school in town. It also made the school a nicer place to be. Now Im in a seperate sixth form where there is no uniform I appreciate that too as I dress how I feel.

I think that pre-16 most kids are too immature to wear their own clothes, I know I was. But when you reach further ed. then you should be given the responsibility to dress yourself.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: GingerBlokey Wearing a school uniform never bothered me, infact I felt proud to walk to school wearing the uniform of the best damned school in town. It also made the school a nicer place to be.quote>

And what about the people who are going to one of the schools that may not be the absolute best school in town?

I think that pre-16 most kids are too immature to wear their own clothes, I know I was.quote>

OK, so you were too immature to wear your own clothes.  I know I wasn't.

But when you reach further ed. then you should be given the responsibility to dress yourself.quote>

Personally, I think you should be given that responsibility a whole lot earlier.

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

Well, you only wear it till ya 16 here in the UK anyway. Never bothered me really. Part of growing up.

I never thought it detracted from my individuality at all, the personality doesn't reflect the clothes someone wears, the clothes reflect the personality.

[kawan 6]

I didn't mind uniforms back in the day. It was much better than own clothing before college, or "non-uniform days" as they are known in the UK. You could tell who the chavs are as they all wear the same thing (chav uniform?) - and then there are the slut gatherings...

So uniform is a good thing. Of course it is still an excuse to be rebellious. A common tradition amongst troublemakers is "untuckin me shirt so I look proper 'ard".

[GingerBlokey 30]

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso Well, you only wear it till ya 16 here in the UK anyway. Never bothered me really. Part of growing up.

I never thought it detracted from my individuality at all, the personality doesn't reflect the clothes someone wears, the clothes reflect the personality.quote>

I think that's the problem, in the Uk you just expect to wear uniform and everyone does, I don't know why they don't in the US, it seems silly really when it works here.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: kawanA common tradition amongst troublemakers is "untuckin me shirt so I look proper 'ard".quote>

And putting up the collar. One guy I knew has a massive collar, his mother must have lengthened it for him or something... he looked like he was going hand-gliding.

I didn't mind uniform, but maybe that because my old School's Uniform was nothing drastic... red V-Neck, Black sweater, a pair of dark trousers and some black shoes... wasn't much to ask of us.

Another School near me didn't have a dress code and they we daily called all the bad names under the sun... I don't know if people were gueninely laughing at how unorganised the school was or if they were simply jealous since they didn't need to wear uniforms, but thats just how it was.

[saltandsauce 0]

since i attend state school i know these people off hand and yes the stereotype is generally true however find one of those people on their own and very few are still the same

nobody cares what they wear if yuo wear a uniform the only situation where you'd be like "oh jeez i hate this (exlpletive) uniform" is if its luminous pink or luminous orange or yellow which so far i have yet to find

both my uniforms are just a plain white shirt and the school tie and dark plain trousers. which is just like an office and nobody moans about office wear do they?

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: GingerBlokey

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso Well, you only wear it till ya 16 here in the UK anyway. Never bothered me really. Part of growing up.

I never thought it detracted from my individuality at all, the personality doesn't reflect the clothes someone wears, the clothes reflect the personality.quote>

I think that's the problem, in the Uk you just expect to wear uniform and everyone does, I don't know why they don't in the US, it seems silly really when it works here.

quote>

That argument is based on the "if it works here, it should work there" premise, which is, more often than not, drawn from hasty generalizations.  As has been said earlier, there are students who, if forced to wear a uniform, would object to that and very likely perform at a lower academic standard because of it.  I know I'm one of those students, as I abhor being forced to wear specific clothes without my prior consent.  I wear whatever I darn well please, and I'm also among the top performing students in every class I'm in.  The problem isn't the clothing, it's the attitude of the students wearing the clothes.

both my uniforms are just a plain white shirt and the school tie and dark plain trousers. which is just like an office and nobody moans about office wear do they?quote>

I know quite a few people that complain about the dress codes at the office.

[cityhawk 12]

The issue of school uniforms is just now surfacing?! I've had to wear a school uniform since I was in the first grade, and I'm about to graduate high school. If you ask me, the pros outweigh the cons. Besides, the cons that were listed are mostly nonexistent, at least in my school.

[Boggy1 45]

I adore school uniforms. Without them I probably would have gone through far more hell than I already did (having the worse fashion sense in the world, with the majority of my clothes being bought second hard...wait, majority? I mean all of my clothes...just doesn't go down well with kids. I dreaded non-uniform days.), and it definately makes the school feel smart and proffesional.

Also, of course, you are far more likely to spot someone immediately who doesn't actually belong in the school, or spot school pupils on a field trip. It's exceedingly useful for teachers. There are no unexpected hiding places to put stuff that would distract you - and there is no distraction from wearing your own clothes. (e.g. no fiddling with chains/shirts or showing off trendy new purchases in lesson).

School uniforms really help prepare people for work - where they will almost definately have to wear some sort of uniform. If you have gone through 15 years of having to wear and adheer to a strict dress code, then it certainly stops the shock for when you enter the workplace.

As for individuality? Thats ridiculous; school isn't about showing off your individuality, its about learning. I've noticed that it's mainly Americans who talk about a loss of individuality and having to conform (in fact America in general seems terrefied of losing their civil rights), while most Europeans have the opposite view.

Can you imagine someone trying to work in, say, a factory, and refusing to wear the safety coveralls as it is a "breach of their freedom of expression?". Schools need a uniform to maintain proper decorum, and to maintain a safe working environment for the students. If you want to express your freedom of expression through clothes; then don't bother going to a school (which, as I mentioned, is a place of learning). If you are that desperate, take an arts subject or one which allows you to express your creativity through penmanship.

I'm in College right now, and we still have to wear uniforms; though it is very relaxed (e.g. black jeans are permitted and black trainers). I'm loving it, and though I now won't really mind not having a uniform when I move to my next stage of education (my second hand clothes have progressed to a standard where they are vaguely trendy), I'll still miss having a uniform.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Well, you only wear it till ya 16 here in the UK anywayquote>

Well not in Northern Irish schools, uniform in pretty much every school is compulsory til age 18 or when you leave at 16...if you leave.

Also, of course, you are far more likely to spot someone immediately who doesn't actually belong in the school, or spot school pupils on a field trip. It's exceedingly useful for teachersquote>

Very good point, uniforms do help with school security and easily notice those that should not be there.

As for individuality? Thats ridiculous; school isn't about showing off your individuality, its about learning. I've noticed that it's mainly Americans who talk about a loss of individuality and having to conform (in fact America in general seems terrefied of losing their civil rights), while most Europeans have the opposite view.

Can you imagine someone trying to work in, say, a factory, and refusing to wear the safety coveralls as it is a "breach of their freedom of expression?". Schools need a uniform to maintain proper decorum, and to maintain a safe working environment for the students. If you want to express your freedom of expression through clothes; then don't bother going to a school (which, as I mentioned, is a place of learning). If you are that desperate, take an arts subject or one which allows you to express your creativity through penmanship.quote>

Agreed.

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

Well, haven't you ever thought it's a different culture? British citizens don't care that there cameras everywhere, the government reads your emails, has everyone's DNA, is setting up a GPS system that can track your every move, microchips its students, and is planning to put hovering police cameras on the streets. . .

Americans like to express themselves, especially children and students, not sure what's so hard to understand about that. It's always been like that, even movies from the 60's and 70's about high school students show a lack of uniforms, and vivid personalities. Makes school less dull and more enjoyable imo, since I don't have a choice to stop attending school.

[belfastuniguy 18]

British citizens don't care that there cameras everywherequote>

FALSE - Some do actually object and the VAST majority of cameras are not operated or placed by the government by private businesses, CCTV does impact on crime and anti-social behaviour and has made street safer and made people feel safer.

the government reads your emailsquote>

FALSE - Illegal under UK and EU law

is setting up a GPS system that can track your every movequote>

What America, the nation that invented GPS, is devoid of a single GPS unit??

microchips its studentsquote>

FALSE - One school out for tens of thousands did that and it was voluntary..

has everyone's DNAquote>

FALSE - DNA only taken if you are arrested or questioned regarding a prosecutable offence.

is planning to put hovering police cameras on the streetsquote>

FALSE....again...

Americans like to express themselvesquote>

So??? British people don't?? Yet we are a leading cultural nation in terms of music, art, literature, film, architecture.....shall I go on???

I seriously suggest you put some more thought into posts like the one you just made....would safe me having to expose the flaws...

[belfastuniguy 18]

Edit -Oh yeah forgot to mention Patriot Act anyone???

People in glass houses Daniel!!

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

FALSE - Some do actually object and the VAST majority of cameras are not operated or placed by the government by private businesses, CCTV does impact on crime and anti-social behaviour and has made street safer and made people feel safer.quote>

Simple observation of British members feelings about the cameras that I've seen around ST.

FALSE - Illegal under UK and EU lawquote>

You never know. Another post in CCTV thread shows that some won't even care if this is true.

What America, the nation that invented GPS, is devoid of a single GPS unit??quote>

One that can see inside buildings and lay out their layouts, tracks your every move, which the government can access. Yes. Most GPS that Americans own stay in their car.

FALSE - One school out for tens of thousands did that and it was voluntary..quote>

Hmm..., seems like it's going to happen soon anyway.

FALSE - DNA only taken if you are arrested or questioned regarding a prosecutable offence. quote>

Sorry, I got confused by Boggy's post in the CCTV thread, but it looks like a database of every single person is very much under discussion.

FALSE....again...quote>

Hmm...

So??? British people don't?? Yet we are a leading cultural nation in terms of music, art, literature, film, architecture.....shall I go on???quote>

I'm not talking about this, I'm talking about uniforms.

I seriously suggest you put some more thought into posts like the one you just made....would safe me having to expose the flaws...quote>

*cough*

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

I agree that a uniform is a pretty good Idea, up to a point.

We have to wear a white shirt, black jumper, a tie, black trousers, black shoes. Why can't a school just ask its pupils to wear black trousers and a black jumper with a white shirt or t-shirt. This would address the issues of bulling that could rise from non-uniform while being practical and comfortable to wear.

[Boggy1 45]

ilikehotdogsalot: Sorry if my post confused you. I, for one, don't care about CCTV cameras (as beltfast said, the majority of which are owned and controlled by companies; not the Government). The British members of Simtropolis do not represent the feelings of every Briton.

The new GPS system (actually called Galileo Positioning System) is going to be used because it provides a far accurate system than the American-run GPS, which can't cope with Europe's roads, and so that Europe/Asia can have its own independant GPS system. The use of it in offices is only going to really be for Government buildings, and even so, is a great way to find your way around. Yes its true that they are going to chip mobile phones and cars; but only so it can lead to an advanced traffic collision and traffic jam avoidance system. If the computers know the position of each car, then they can advise you on exactly where to go, live. And no, the Governemnt wont be able to access any of it.

The whole chipping students thing was a trial run in a single school. Just one. And there is no evidence that it will become common for each school.

The flying helicopter thing? That was more of a "Oh hey, look what we can do!" moment. It hasn't been used for anything other than brief trial runs in a field; and if it were to be used by the police, would most likely be used to catch fleeing criminals.

TQL: Our uniform is great (probably because we don't have ties, which sound like hell ), but also because its cheap, attractive, and very comfortable to wear.

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

It's fine Boggy, I hope I didn't step on any toes with my post, I'll try to be more considerate next time, thanks for explaining my mistakes, I'll take note.

[screamingman12 30]

I would absolutely not object to placing CCTV cameras on street corners. would you like those drug dealers, prostitues, killers, etc. to remian on the streets? I know I wouldn't. They provide more saftey then danger to citizens.

The patriot act was some stupid [explitive] law that only got passed becasuse the public was too numbed after 9/11. Once Bush and his accomplices leave office, it will die.

I read the microchip article, the chips are in the uniforms, will greatly help to track students if they skip or are picked up by the wrong people. Would you like for your child to be picked up by some kidnapper/child molester and not be able to know where they are?

How about that illegal wiretapping program that Bush signed off on? I think that it says a lot.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Children are being tracked by micro-chips embedded in their uniforms in a trial at a secondary school. - from the times quote>

ONE secondary school....as I stated...also

This is an RFID system. RFID has a read range of a few inches to upto a massive 10 metres. Tracking people is pretty useless with RFID. I think you're thinking of GPS. You can only track RFID where a chip passes a reader (within range). Unless you have a reader every 1-10 steps everywhere you walk then you don't no (cannot track) where that person is. quote>

Hmm...quote>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/20/micro_air_vehicle_hover_n_stare_daleks_for_miami_heat/

The police have have trialled one, not every police force has nor have they purchased one...unlike Miami...

You never know. Another post in CCTV thread shows that some won't even care if this is truequote>

No you would know. Things like that tend to have tendeancy to be leaked to the public...as I said illegal under out laws....unlike in America...the land of freedom..

One that can see inside buildings and lay out their layouts, which the government can access. Yes.quote>

Well unless you are going to place GPS receivers in the floors, walls, fixtures and fittings of a building then it is impossible to 'look' inside a building and even then GPS will just tell you where things are in the structure. To actually look inside a building would require advanced military style spy satellites....not conventional GPS ones..

Sorry, I got confused by Boggy's post in the CCTV thread, but it looks like a database of every single person is very much under discussionquote>

You shouldn't confuse discussion about a hypothetical database that is no where near being developed nor would it passed through the UK Parliament with reality.

Interesting you did not address your Patriots Act...

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy Edit -Oh yeah forgot to mention Patriot Act anyone???

People in glass houses Daniel!!quote>

Just for the record, there are a lot of people in this country (myself included) who oppose the Patriot Act. Given that this country has a very high variety of different kinds of people, this tends to be the case a lot. Very few things are overwhelmingly supported or opposed.

Not to mention that there's a lot of partisan politics at work, too. 'twas a republican congress that passed the bill and a republican president who signed it. Most democrats weren't in favor of it and would like to see it repealed.

Originally posted by: hym

That argument is based on the "if it works here, it should work there" premise, which is, more often than not, drawn from hasty generalizations.quote>

"If it works here, it will work there" is, of course, a logical fallacy. There ought to be a Latin saying for it. Because fancy things need Latin sayings.

My quick attempt, the grammar is probably wrong:

Si id laborat huc, id laborabit ibi.

Anyone who actually knows Latin and isn't relying on online translators, feel free to correct it.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Just for the record, there are a lot of people in this country (myself included) who oppose the Patriot Act. Given that this country has a very high variety of different kinds of people, this tends to be the case a lot. Very few things are overwhelmingly supported or opposed.

Not to mention that there's a lot of partisan politics at work, too. 'twas a republican congress that passed the bill and a republican president who signed it. Most democrats weren't in favor of it and would like to see it repealed.quote>

I didn't say there wasn't a range of opinion on the matter. However some in America would be good to remember the act before condemning the United Kingdom or any other nation for their 'surveillance society'. In these matters its best not to base views on a stereotypical media generated image..

[IDS2 3,429]

Well, I don't think it would do much but make kids a bit more uncomfortable. I don't notice anything wrong without them.

[SimRabbit 48]

Freedom

that's basically why America was created in the first place. Im not sure in the UK but here on the US the government doesn't always tell

schools to have uniforms. That is up to the School districts. And if you don't like uniforms moving to another school on a diffrent school district is an option.

And the Patriot Act, come one that was introduced by the worst President of the US. But Im sure things are worse in the UK "Privacy wise"

By the way GPS stands for Global Positioning System. (let's not argue on this)

[Boggy1 45]

SimRabbit: Sorry, I meant that the European version of the GPS was called Galileo Positioning System.

Also, you can't make generalizations that things are worse here. Worse in relative to what? How do you define privacy? Your use of the words "I'm sure" suggest that you are making assumptions; never a good idea.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Im not sure in the UK but here on the US the government doesn't always tell schools to have uniforms.quote>

No they don't, its a decision by the school itself. Uniform is not directed by the government or local education boards, at least here in Northern Ireland it isn't, and I'm sure the same goes for England, Scotland and Wales.

And the Patriot Act, come one that was introduced by the worst President of the USquote>

And approved by a significant margin in both houses of Congress.

But Im sure things are worse in the UK "Privacy wise"quote>

You reason for this belief?

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

By the way GPS stands for Global Positioning System. (let's not argue on this)quote>

Aah, but you're wrong.

The new EU GPS system has been named the Galileo Positioning System. Therefore 'GPS' could stand both for 'Global Positioning System' a general name for such systems, or Galileo Positioning System, the name of the EU's new system.