Rudy Giuliani Slams British National Health Service

[Boggy1 45]

Rudy Giuliani, US Presidential Canditate, recently released an election campaign advertisment which quotes;

“I had prostate cancer five, six years ago. My chance of surviving prostate cancer – and, thank God, I was cured of it – in the United States? 82 per cent. My chance of surviving prostate cancer in England? Only 44 per cent under socialised medicine.”

This has prompted outrage from the British Government, and our Health Secretary, Alan Johnson, has pleased Giuliani to not use the British Health Service as a political football in American politics.

Giuliani's quote has angered me for a number of reasons. Firstly, why on earth is he bashing the UK? Comparing your own country to a foreign country is a terrible idea; as, guess what, they are both totally different countries, with their own policies and ideals.

In the United States, for instance, people are tested for cancer on a far far more regular basis than over here. So of course, your going to have better survival rates; you would catch the cancer quicker.

Secondaly, and this is something that really grates with nearly every British person, he has used England as being synonymic with the entire UK.

And lastly, his figures arn't even accurate. The official survivale rate is instead 70+%. He is using outofdate AND innacurate figures. The creator of the figures has even acknowledged that they are 'crude' and 'outdated'.

His quote is simply a baseless attempt at trying to slur socialism.

[patriots_1228 51]

your last sentence sums up what I was thinking. That or hes trying to gain more popularity....

[belfastuniguy 18]

" Rudy Giuliani, the front-runner for the 2008 Republican nomination, was accused last night of smearing the NHS to attack Democratic plans for universal healthcare in America.

Mr Giuliani launched a radio advertising campaign saying that the proposals from Democrats such as Hilary Clinton smacked of European-style socialism that would lower standards in the US.

"I had prostate cancer five, six years ago," the former New York mayor said. "My chance of surviving prostate cancer - and, thank God, I was cured of it - in the United States? 82 per cent. My chance of surviving prostate cancer in England? Only 44 per cent under socialised medicine."

His advert prompted Alan Johnson, the Health Secretary, to make a rare intervention into US politics as he pleaded with Mr Giuliani to stop kicking the NHS. Mr Johnson told The Times: "The British NHS should not become a political football in American presidential politics. Our rate of prostate cancer survival is actually much higher than has been claimed. The latest data shows a survival rate of over 70 per cent - and increasing. "

Times Article

This was reported on the BBC Ten O'Clock News and has annoyed me greatly.

What exactly gives Giuliani the right to speak about the British NHS? I fail to see the reasons behind this other then to smear the British Social Structure and in the process smear the campaign of democratic rivals.

I would certainly appreciate that American politicians have a look in their own backyard and put forward polices to help the millions of Americans that are without any form of health insurance.

While the UK NHS is not perfect it's certainly far better than the rubbish the American social health care system offers its people and I for one would certainly appreciate that he keep his nose out and focused on how those in American without insurance would pay for operations and healthcare that we in the UK get for free. Not all Americans can afford the tens of thousands needed to pay for operations. quote>

[coolotter88 2]

because, no one wants socialized healthcare?

[Boggy1 45]

coolotter88: Except plenty of countries do have socialized healthcare, and its a fantastic system and works fine in 99% of cases. In the UK, if a politician were to even suggest getting rid of socialized healthcare, it would be an exceedingly effective means of comitting total, complete, and utter political suicide.

In fact, lets count all the countries which have some form of Universal (Social) Healcare.

Canada.

United Kingdom.

Greenland.

Iceland.

Ireland.

France.

Spain.

Brazil.

Austrailia.

New Zealand.

Japan.

China.

Russia.

Argentina.

Chile.

Cuba.

Portual.

Germany.

Italy.

Poland.

Norway.

Sweden.

Finland.

Saudi Arabia.

South Korea.

Actually I could go on and on and on. But suffice to say; the USA is the only developed country with no Socialized Healthcare.

[patriots_1228 51]

^well some people must want it considering its used in alot of countries....

[coolotter88 2]

er, allow me to rephrase that, good Americans vote for the one who doesn't support communism

<.<

>.>

jkjk about the communism part.

[belfastuniguy 18]

I don't think the case for an American social healthcare system can be just boiled down to ur a socialist and I'm a conservative that wants to say the taxpayers money. Many Americans do support some degree of reform.

Social healthcare has never been a big problem as many people have private insurance or insurance through their company. But millions have no form of protection against medical bills and I'm pretty certain many go through life in terrible pain simply because they cannot afford basic medical care, which is just shocking for what is suppose to be the world's current superpower.

Maybe America does not need an 'NHS' but they do need social reform and more investment in social health care to prevent people from either going through life in pain or indeed dying.

[Zelgadis 638]

Canada has endured the wrath of anti-socialists in the US for quite some time. Now you're getting a taste of it.

In the end, it all comes down to the following facts for me.

I have a "pre-existing condition."

I therefore can't get health insurance in the US.

I am automatically covered now that I live in Canada.

That means I will be able to gleefully sing "Oh Canada" for the next 50 to 80 years here rather than who-knows-how-long in the US if my cancer comes back.

No brainer.

On the other hand, those Canadians who have ever heard me attempt to sing "Oh Canada" may well be keen to pass a law making sure I am the only one who's not allowed to have health care.

ISF

[MrCinatit 30]

The problem with socialized medicine is simply its name. Ask your typical American what socialized medicine, and they simply will not know - but because we are told to be afraid of it, many are afraid of it. Call it "free" or "universal", and the fear will subside.

The U.S. health care system is a disaster, as it is coming to the point that those who are in the lower classes are unable to afford it. Insurance pays for little - and many times is limited to what can be covered and what doctors/health facilities can be used to further decrease its use. The ideas by some to further privatize health care will only make the gap between the haves and have nots even wider.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Interesting argument considering the recent case of EU officials bashing Texas for its executions.

..anyways suffice to say, I don't see the issue here, people insult others all the time, so why should this case be any different? If you don't like that particular politician don't vote for him, simple as that.

As far as universal heathcare...I'm against it. However, I think a lot of Americans would like the concept, except they'd rather not pay more taxes. There should be a cooperative system with government and private firms in the medical fields...or maybe the government should provide a % of coverage based on income.

However, realize that the USA is not like other countries as far as states and divisions go. Individual states decide what they want (as you can tell, I'm a huge supporter of states' rights as well), and to us a universal health care is just one more thing we have to rely on our federal government to do. This is also why we have no national-curriculum for schools. When putting the US against other nations stat wise, you can't really depend on a nation-wide judgment, as each and every state is different, and putting it together as a collective set of statistics makes for a poor reading. (For example, some of the states with the "worst" educational systems happen to have the highest standards)..

...probably not a lot I added to this, but I hope it can balance out the point of view factor.

[ccecill 52]

Giuliani irks the hell out of me... he rules out diplomacy, as he doesn't want to negotiate with Ahmadinejad.. and has just proved (pretty explicitly) that repairing alliances isn't on his top priority list...

He's trying to get the "god, guns, and guts" voters... aka The south, the red-staters, the Jesus bunch, the evangelicals, or whatever you wanna call them. (I call them idiots.) In an area that would likely express extreme concern with the election of a yankee, a mayor, a man who has been married three times, and a man who is pro gun control/pro-choice, It seems unlikely that he'd carry the red states, especially if he faces Edwards (who is a good ol' boy) or Hilldog... I assume that southerners may see she or edwards as the "lesser of two evils"

Sorry if I kinda got off there... but goodness I hate Giuliani... the quintessence of political prostitution.

[belfastuniguy 18]

I think the point Frankie made is very interesting. I didn't know there was no national curriculum, that has surprised me somewhat.

I think something like Universal healthcare should be provided by the government or at least a high percentage funded by national government with the rest funded by the state governments.

[Insane Child of Bodom 1]

I support him now more then ever...he bashed England like a pro!

plenty of great nation are NOT on soicalisim style healthcare...

America is more advanced thats why we have a better survival rate...

Anyway Hungary don't even bother with soicalism...

[screamingman12 30]

Rudy Giuliani,

Good God I hate that man...

[panthersimcity4 162]

I see nothing wrong with socialized medicine. I mean, people get all scared because they think it'll lead to communism or something...

ccecil: LOL, God, gun and guts  That made my day...

The only reason I hate Giuliani is because he thinks he's so special because he was mayor during 9/11, and he ALWAYS mentions it when he wants supporters. Reminds me of a Onion newspaper headline: "Rudy Giuliani runs for president of 9/11"

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove
However, realize that the USA is not like other countries as far as states and divisions go. Individual states decide what they want (as you can tell, I'm a huge supporter of states' rights as well), and to us a universal health care is just one more thing we have to rely on our federal government to do. This is also why we have no national-curriculum for schools. When putting the US against other nations stat wise, you can't really depend on a nation-wide judgment, as each and every state is different, and putting it together as a collective set of statistics makes for a poor reading. (For example, some of the states with the "worst" educational systems happen to have the highest standards)..


...probably not a lot I added to this, but I hope it can balance out the point of view factor.quote>

But is healthcare an issue states can discuss? And about "pre-existing condition", does that mean that I, who has epilepsy, would have problems getting health insurance?

Lastly, universal healthcare in the EEA (EU and a couple of other states) actually means that you are covered in all member states (unless you are travelling to take advantage of a country's healthcare). All you have to do is showing your national health card (or the EEA card, if your country doesn't have any).

[mayormot 4]

If Guliani has a 9-11, oops I mean opinion, about the British 9-11, oops I mean National Health, perhaps he should move to 9-11, oops I mean England, and run for 9-11, oops I mean Prime Minister.

In drag he looks a lot like a bottle-blonde version of Maggie Thatcher anyway.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: ccecill

He's trying to get the "god, guns, and guts" voters... aka The south, the red-staters, the Jesus bunch, the evangelicals, or whatever you wanna call them. (I call them idiots.) In an area that would likely express extreme concern with the election of a yankee, a mayor, a man who has been married three times, and a man who is pro gun control/pro-choice.quote>

Southerners are Americans just like you are, and we can have our own opinions and beliefs. The fact that everyone looks down on us as inferiors is disturbing. Do we have too high of standards? Perhaps, but this is America, and we can do what we damn well please.

It seems unlikely that he'd carry the red states, especially if he faces Edwards (who is a good ol' boy) or Hilldog... I assume that southerners may see she or edwards as the "lesser of two evils"quote>

I think us "red states" are going for Ron Paul or that other republican that actually makes sense. There is no way any Southerner would vote for Hillary, but Edwards will probably get lucky in N. Carolina.

[SpecialEddie 3]

Originally posted by: ilikehotdogsalot bashing takes place all the time in *Simtropolis, especially *chat. quote>

 

Fixed.

[MrCinatit 30]

Originally posted by: Insane Child of Bodom I support him now more then ever...he bashed England like a pro!

plenty of great nation are NOT on soicalisim style healthcare...

America is more advanced thats why we have a better survival rate...

Anyway Hungary don't even bother with soicalism...quote>

...sort of.

New York Times editorial:

Many Americans are under the delusion that we have “the best health care system in the world,” as President Bush sees it, or provide the “best medical care in the world,” as Rudolph Giuliani declared last week. That may be true at many top medical centers. But the disturbing truth is that this country lags well behind other advanced nations in delivering timely and effective care.

 Michael Moore struck a nerve in his new documentary, “Sicko,” when he extolled the virtues of the government-run health care systems in France, England, Canada and even Cuba while deploring the failures of the largely private insurance system in this country. There is no question that Mr. Moore overstated his case by making foreign systems look almost flawless. But there is a growing body of evidence that, by an array of pertinent yardsticks, the United States is a laggard not a leader in providing good medical care.

 Seven years ago, the World Health Organization made the first major effort to rank the health systems of 191 nations. France and Italy took the top two spots; the United States was a dismal 37th. More recently, the highly regarded Commonwealth Fund has pioneered in comparing the United States with other advanced nations through surveys of patients and doctors and analysis of other data. Its latest report, issued in May, ranked the United States last or next-to-last compared with five other nations — Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the United Kingdom — on most measures of performance, including quality of care and access to it. Other comparative studies also put the United States in a relatively bad light.

 Insurance coverage. All other major industrialized nations provide universal health coverage, and most of them have comprehensive benefit packages with no cost-sharing by the patients. The United States, to its shame, has some 45 million people without health insurance and many more millions who have poor coverage. Although the president has blithely said that these people can always get treatment in an emergency room, many studies have shown that people without insurance postpone treatment until a minor illness becomes worse, harming their own health and imposing greater costs.

 Access. Citizens abroad often face long waits before they can get to see a specialist or undergo elective surgery. Americans typically get prompter attention, although Germany does better. The real barriers here are the costs facing low-income people without insurance or with skimpy coverage. But even Americans with above-average incomes find it more difficult than their counterparts abroad to get care on nights or weekends without going to an emergency room, and many report having to wait six days or more for an appointment with their own doctors.

 Fairness. The United States ranks dead last on almost all measures of equity because we have the greatest disparity in the quality of care given to richer and poorer citizens. Americans with below-average incomes are much less likely than their counterparts in other industrialized nations to see a doctor when sick, to fill prescriptions or to get needed tests and follow-up care.

 Healthy lives. We have known for years that

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[belfastuniguy 18]

Originally posted by: ilikehotdogsalot i guess it's okay to bash the united states, but not okay to bash the england?.

most europeans love to bash the u.s, especially its health-care system. bashing takes place all the time in europe, especially england. one thing that i always remembered about london was the anti-american ads last time i visited...does that offend me? yes, but i ignore it. i've seen MUCH more offensive things said about the U.S than giuliani said about the English healthcare system, including right here in ST and chat.

lovely quote>

Ok you have just shown total misinformation, that billboard is actually advertising a new digital TV channel showcasing American programming, it's called sarcasm.......it's not an Anti-American advertisement as you have suggested. I would suggest before posting things like that you at least check the facts, which you could have easily done by typing that slogan into Google..............................

So it is indeed promoting American broadcasting.

[Duke87 1,070]

The way I see it:

Free market, capitalistic heathcare = crappy service for the poor, good service for most people

"Universal", socialistic healthcare = crappy service for everyone

In fact, the same can be said about pretty much anything with the free market doing it versus the government doing it.

Giuliani's statistics may have been flawed, but his point still stands.

"England" was just an example. It could easily be replaced with any country that uses socialized healthcare. Nobody's singling out the British, here.

[Micah 16]

But since he is a fear-monger, he does his best to scare people into his way of thinking. Non-US folks need to understand that things in the US are gearing up for the elections next year, and Mr 9/11 is running.quote>

Hasn't every single candidate in the 2008 elections used fear to win votes? Fear of failure in Iraq, fear of religious extremism, fear of social security* problems, fear of healthcare breakdown... fear of everything!

Whoops: Sorry about that typo.

[simdad1957 3]

Here is an interesting thought for you. Countries such as Canada that have free universal health care tend to experience much less medical malpractice litigation than the United States. With low rates of malpractice litigation, the tort system in Canada is much less busy.

There are more lawyers in the United States than in the rest of the world combined. If malpractice litigation was to experience a sudden drop in popularity then most lawyers in the U.S. would starve.

Most U.S. politicians are lawyers. Hmmmmm.

[belfastuniguy 18]

I fail to see why the election can be used as an excuse. I also take offence at the suggestion that everyone in Europe bashes the United States.

If a UK politician suggested allowing citizens to carry guns and then his rival turned round and said, 'what an insane idea we'll soon have school shootings and people at risk on the streets just like in America' I'm pretty damn certain Americans would be offended. The fact is they tend to stick to national polices when we have an election and not get involved in the matters of another country unless in time of war. (Extreme example but proves the point)

Just because he is getting ready for the 2008 Election goes not give him the right to quote flawed statistics and how wonderful his treatment was. Of course he had wonderful treatment he paid god knows how much to get it. Shame that if he is elected President all his citizens will not be as lucky.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy I fail to see why the election can be used as an excuse. I also take offence at the suggestion that everyone in Europe bashes the United States.

If a UK politician suggested allowing citizens to carry guns and then his rival turned round and said, 'what an insane idea we'll soon have school shootings and people at risk on the streets just like in America' I'm pretty damn certain Americans would be offended. The fact is they tend to stick to national polices when we have an election and not get involved in the matters of another country unless in time of war. (Extreme example but proves the point)

Just because he is getting ready for the 2008 Election goes not give him the right to quote flawed statistics and how wonderful his treatment was. Of course he had wonderful treatment he paid god knows how much to get it. Shame that if he is elected President all his citizens will not be as lucky.quote>

What's wrong with quoting how wonderful his treatment was?  That can be done without dissing anyone.

[belfastuniguy 18]

He done so and then suggested if he was in the 'England' he may not have survived and then quoted and vastly incorrect survival rate. Hence why people here are offended. He could have easily has quoted survival rates from different states in America, then we would not have cared but he did not he instead decided to use his cancer treatment and care a political statement to undermine social health care, something his rivals have suggested the USA have.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy He done so and then suggested if he was in the 'England' he may not have survived and then quoted and vastly incorrect survival rate. Hence why people here are offended. He could have easily has quoted survival rates from different states in America, then we would not have cared but he did not he instead decided to use his cancer treatment and care a political statement to undermine social health care, something his rivals have suggested the USA have.quote>

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of.  Just don't mention other countries.