UN vs the Catholic Church

[Palpatine001 57]

Ok this is putting my back side on the line and will probably test the limits here

This Article Here from the New Zealand Herald is what the discussion says

For those bright cookie the Herald has even asked for feedback on its own site (standard moderation checks withstanding)

So then if the Flagship Paper can do it, I can not see why we can have a CIVIL debate on this

Please save all flaming for MSN and AIM

So then who wants to get the ball rolling?

[The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz 27]

Woah, I never thought of this. Talk about your moral dilemmas.

Personally, I think the Catholic Church shouldn't be in Africa, particularly the remoter areas where AIDs is rife. They have their own customs and religions, and they seriously need to start learning to respect the fact that there are other religions, but that doesn't make them "savage" and godless people. Really, I mean if there is one thing that I dislike most about the Catholic church, it's how they try and force their religion on everyone, and they will claim that it's to "give you a chance of salvation", but really it's about how much money ends up in the Pope's coffers at the end of the day. And now they are even forcing their religion on people who have their own ancient tribal traditions and religions. Admittedly, I can't see the financial gain of this, maybe they are trying to do good, but they are really doing horribly wrong. They have no right what so ever to be pushing their religion on people in far off places, and this just gives me another argument. The UN is absolutely right, they need to get out of those countries and go back to converting the heathens in their own countries.

I mean to offend no one, this is just my opinion on the matter.

[DOXXP29 5]

For a pro-life religion that believes in the sanctity of life, their policy sure seems to be killing a lot of people.

[JanYpe 17]

Hasn't this been an issue in Africa for ages as well? It's still just as wrong and callous here. This isn't a case of "standing up for its sense of morality" like the comments on that article suggest, this is a case of the RCC sticking to a policy that amounts to criminal negligence.

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

---

Originally posted by: DOXXP29 For a pro-life religion that believes in the sanctity of life, their policy sure seems to be killing a lot of people.quote>

I couldn't agree more.

[coolotter88 2]

D=, it's all the virus's fault

[GingerBlokey 30]

Imho Cathlocism = Evil

Their policies are stuck in the Middle Ages and are killing people

[Micah 16]

We are walking a very fine line, gentlemen. Becareful what you say because there are many members here who are Catholic.

This is actually a though position for me because I understand both sides. However, the Catholic church needs to make an exception here because, instead of gaining church membership, most of them will probably die.

[Meg 368]

Using condoms = slowing the spread of AIDS

Not using condoms = increasing the spread of AIDS

Banning the use of condoms = increasing the spread of AIDS

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz Woah, I never thought of this. Talk about your moral dilemmas.

Personally, I think the Catholic Church shouldn't be in Africa, particularly the remoter areas where AIDs is rife. They have their own customs and religions, and they seriously need to start learning to respect the fact that there are other religions, but that doesn't make them "savage" and godless people. Really, I mean if there is one thing that I dislike most about the Catholic church, it's how they try and force their religion on everyone, and they will claim that it's to "give you a chance of salvation", but really it's about how much money ends up in the Pope's coffers at the end of the day. And now they are even forcing their religion on people who have their own ancient tribal traditions and religions. Admittedly, I can't see the financial gain of this, maybe they are trying to do good, but they are really doing horribly wrong. They have no right what so ever to be pushing their religion on people in far off places, and this just gives me another argument. The UN is absolutely right, they need to get out of those countries and go back to converting the heathens in their own countries.

I mean to offend no one, this is just my opinion on the matter.quote>

Are you talking about something other than the article, because they don't ever mention Africa in it.

I understand why the RCC is saying and doing what they are.  It fit perfectly with their belief that the only purpose for having sexual relations with someone is to procreate.

In one way though, that's better than some people I know who wish that people could just spontaneously reproduce so that they never have to broach the topic of that stuff.

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek Using condoms = slowing the spread of AIDS

Not using condoms = increasing the spread of AIDS

Banning the use of condoms = increasing the spread of AIDS

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

quote>

I completely Agree.

[The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz 27]

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

Originally posted by: The boy formerly known as Evil Muzz Woah, I never thought of this. Talk about your moral dilemmas.

Personally, I think the Catholic Church shouldn't be in Africa, particularly the remoter areas where AIDs is rife. They have their own customs and religions, and they seriously need to start learning to respect the fact that there are other religions, but that doesn't make them "savage" and godless people. Really, I mean if there is one thing that I dislike most about the Catholic church, it's how they try and force their religion on everyone, and they will claim that it's to "give you a chance of salvation", but really it's about how much money ends up in the Pope's coffers at the end of the day. And now they are even forcing their religion on people who have their own ancient tribal traditions and religions. Admittedly, I can't see the financial gain of this, maybe they are trying to do good, but they are really doing horribly wrong. They have no right what so ever to be pushing their religion on people in far off places, and this just gives me another argument. The UN is absolutely right, they need to get out of those countries and go back to converting the heathens in their own countries.

I mean to offend no one, this is just my opinion on the matter.quote>

Are you talking about something other than the article, because they don't ever mention Africa in it.

I understand why the RCC is saying and doing what they are.  It fit perfectly with their belief that the only purpose for having sexual relations with someone is to procreate.

In one way though, that's better than some people I know who wish that people could just spontaneously reproduce so that they never have to broach the topic of that stuff. quote>

 

My mistake, Latin America is what it actually says, thanks for pointing that out. But my opinion stands, the missionaries do go to Africa and force their religion on people there, whether the article mentions it or not.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Wherever the Church goes with its inflexible dogmas, it inevitably gets a bloody nose. 

Of course you realize that the Church is against fornication (extra marital sex), and adultery (sex between married people who are not married to each other) and that they only condone sex within marriage for the procreation of children.

I think that the Church is actually against erotic love.  They see having sex as a duty, and a mechanism for breeding.  Well, there is no question that they are succeeding in breeding the HIV virus.

Perhaps it is time for a papal bull allowing for the mechanical prevention of STD's.  It isn't only HIV/AIDS that is prevented by condoms.

Maybe the WHO should declare the Church as a world wide health hazard.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek Using condoms = slowing the spread of AIDS

Not using condoms = increasing the spread of AIDS

Banning the use of condoms = increasing the spread of AIDS

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

quote>

Not to mention unwanted Pregnancy and an increase in Abortion.

[hamsterTK 93]

I read somewhere that in Ireland they were illegal up until the 90's. Strange..

You know, just as a young guy living in the US,  I can't even imagine a world without them or birth control or things like that

Anyways, this can't be the first time the church or some other out-of-touch western institution has mucked things up in Africa....

[GingerBlokey 30]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK I read somewhere that in Ireland they were illegal up until the 90's. Strange..

quote>

We were discussing that in Philosophy.

Imagine if the government of Ghana or Bolivia banned condoms can you imagine the outrage? How come the Catholic Church is allowed to get away with it under the banner of "religion"

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK I read somewhere that in Ireland they were illegal up until the 90's. Strange..

You know, just as a young guy living in the US,  I can't even imagine a world without them or birth control or things like that

Anyways, this can't be the first time the church or some other out-of-touch western institution has mucked things up in Africa....quote>

Abortion is still illegal in Ireland except for 'maternal life and/or health'.

[DOXXP29 5]

Actually, the RCC does allow a BS form of birth control for those times when a wife has to fufill the husbands "needs" . It's called the Rhythm Method" and basically involves, well, pulling out before completion. (I was raised catholic and went to all their little sex seminars for teenagers. This is what they allowed.)

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Originally posted by: DOXXP29 Actually, the RCC does allow a BS form of birth control for those times when a wife has to fufill the husbands "needs" . It's called the Rhythm Method" and basically involves, well, pulling out before completion. (I was raised catholic and went to all their little sex seminars for teenagers. This is what they allowed.)quote>

Though that has issues. Surely whilst your, enjoying yourself, the last thing your going to think is, ah, im going to ejaculate soon, i had better stop.

And i appologise if i sound vulgar here.  This is a mature topic and i hope it can be treated that way.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

I think that the Church is actually against erotic love.  They see having sex as a duty, and a mechanism for breeding.quote>

Which strikes me as highly impractical, given the nature of human beings.

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso

Not to mention unwanted Pregnancy and an increase in Abortion.quote>

Good point

Originally posted by: GingerBlokey

Imagine if the government of Ghana or Bolivia banned condoms can you imagine the outrage? How come the Catholic Church is allowed to get away with it under the banner of "religion"quote>

Because laws are legally binding and religious decrees are a matter of choice whether people accept them or not?  Still, you have an excellent point.

Originally posted by: DOXXP29

Actually, the RCC does allow a BS form of birth control for those times when a wife has to fufill the husbands "needs" . It's called the Rhythm Method" and basically involves, well, pulling out before completion. (I was raised catholic and went to all their little sex seminars for teenagers. This is what they allowed.)quote>

The way the Rhythm Method was explained to me was the couple charted the woman's cycle to determine her fertile days and avoided sex then and for several days before and after.

Like all methods based on not having sex, it doesn't work very well.  As the old joke goes:

Q:  What do you call people who use the rhythm method?

A:  Parents

As I understand it, these days it's called "Natural Family Planning".

[saltandsauce 0]

another point never given in the catholic church is no sex before marriage which nobody practices anymore which would be if they stuck with both rules then AIDS would be more contained because its only with one partner rather than going from one to another is how it passes, the other reason for this is that having no sex (and thus no kidds) until marriage then this means kids might actually grow up in a traditional family model which is best for child and parents anyway but thats why they say if you are a catholic and follow our religion then you must follow that rule as well

[kurtvedder 4]

Why is it that everyone who is not a Catholic, always criticise the church? I say if you are not a Catholic then you should keep quiet and let them run things how they want to, after all, it has worked for two thousand years. I remember a couple years ago, back when the pope died, all of the Protestants that I knew were saying that "The Catholic Church needs to allow women to be Priests, and this new "Nazi" won't allow it." It is a RELIGION not a country, religions for the most part affect only the people who belong to that religion and others need to calm down because it doesn't affect them at all.

Bact to the topic, I do believe the church should allow condoms, but unlike most of you, I am a Catholic so my criticism towards the church should in theory count.

Also, who ever said that the Pope just sits around and hords money... do you live in an European country that has a Royal Family?

[GingerBlokey 30]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: GingerBlokey

Imagine if the government of Ghana or Bolivia banned condoms can you imagine the outrage? How come the Catholic Church is allowed to get away with it under the banner of "religion"quote>

Because laws are legally binding and religious decrees are a matter of choice whether people accept them or not?  Still, you have an excellent point.

quote>

I take your point but if you were born into a Catholic family then it is like a law and you do feel obliged to follow it. If it was the Church of England, a more liberal church, then people may be more likely to ignore it. When people say "Use a condom, go to hell" then its not fair, in fact its evil.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: kurtvedder

Why is it that everyone who is not a Catholic, always criticise the church? I say if you are not a Catholic then you should keep quiet quote>

Just wondering . . . my parents both went to Catholic school.  I was raised Catholic for the first 12 years of my life, at which point my family left the church because my parents left it was backing out of the Vatican II reforms.  So, in your view, am I entitled to have an opinion or not?

[Zelgadis 638]

Originally posted by: kurtvedder Why is it that everyone who is not a Catholic, always criticise the church?quote>

Because Catholic church policy affects the the lives of many, many people who are not Catholic, myself included.

It is a travesty that any group would use dogma to justify denying something that could save millions of lives.  Skigeek's first post above said it all.

ISF

[Simfan34 11]

Ooh, dear. This isn't good. The church has infulence of its members, myself inculded, espcially in poorer countries. This could prevent the saving of lives. But why are they so objectionable? Beacause it shows that you're not practicing abstinence?

[patriots_1228 51]

Ginger-Why are you being so bitter towards the catholic church? your acting like somehow it has wronged you......

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Simfan34

Ooh, dear. This isn't good. The church has infulence of its members, myself inculded, espcially in poorer countries. This could prevent the saving of lives. But why are they so objectionable? Beacause it shows that you're not practicing abstinence?quote>

Exactly.  The Catholic church's view is that sex is for married couples for the purpose of procreation, period.

One of those ideas that might sound good in theory but doesn't work in actual practice.

[saltandsauce 0]

well there is another point which is why does society say have sex with whoever whenever even only once is fine do you think thats right?

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa