I would like to make a confession

[Mr. Flibble 134]

May the lords of SimCity have mercy on my soul, but I don't care if water pipes are removed from any future SimCity iterations or not. IMO, the model Maxis used for the power grid is so sensible that I wonder at times why water didn't go the same way. The only pipes needed would be to haul water a long distance across the map or between regions. The water buildings can be left as is, in fact I rather enjoy the water tanks in my little SimHamlets. But let's be realistic, that's the most interaction 98% of the gaming community has with water beyond their taps, a water tank they see when they drive somewhere. That's why people grumble about pipes, I believe. It's a layer of abstraction most of us have no real-life experience to relate it to. Same with power. Same with garbage.

But woe, woe, woe unto heathens that simplify or eliminate transit options! This is again for the same reason. We interact daily with transit, going to work, watching car chases and whatnot. We interact with architecture in our cities, the trees, parks, libraries, landmark structures, etc. and it's fun to see these real-life things distilled into a form that we can rearrange any way we like and play with using tools that simulate that realism.

Very few of us, however, experience clown schools, candy houses, Stalinist prisons, floating stoplights, mimes being hauled off by thuggish police, etc..that's why as a "SIM" City game, this newest iteration holds zero interest for me at all.

[Msprintz 25]

If anything laying pipes and power networks is quite education.  MAXIS even ensured it was quite simple, because of how complex each network can be.  To ensure your zones and buildings recieved power you placed them next to powered buildings or layed a power line to them.  Water worked much the same way except that the radius was within x number of spaces from the pipes and thus creating a semi-realistic approach to a water network.  

Of course most if not all of us have can't truely understand the complexity of each network.  Unless one looks it up online or has watched the history channel, even then there are things that are left out.  For example the infrastructure of the power grid which is in essence a complex network of stepping stones right up to the point where the line reaches your home.  A water grid can be equally as complicated to ensure water get's from it's source whether it be an underground aquifer or reservoir to a population.  

Maxis could've included much much more when it comes to city services.  Would it have been right? probably not at this point.  I'd say it would be appropriate for the next iteration of a realistic city building simulation to include such complexity.  But hey that's just one mans opinion. 

[baertooth 330]

At least in the SC4 model, on problem that arises is there are certain situations where I don't want to have some buildings watered but others. What's the easiest way to do that? Also, it would mean changing how to make neighborhood connections.

Personally, I like the water pipes because I like that level of detail. The only time when I don't like water pipes is when I sandboxing it and get sick of having to lay pipe in a lot of large cities. But if you grow your city, which is the basic game play of SC4, that gets taken care of in the course of play and isn't a burden at all.

[Endureth 37]

I like water pipes.  As I grow my city I distribute water as needed.  If I supply it too early I end up with too many high wealth people living in places I have plans to be low residential areas.

Don't forget you have to keep the water pipes away from water pollution which is another aspect of city management.

Water pipes really aren't that complicated though.

I think the problems new players have is they don't know they have to lay them because they don't RTFM.

[Odainsaker 2,133]

Well, we could always be forced to select pipe diameters to provide the necessary supply and pressure of water within our systems to meet our neighborhoods' planned or existing levels of development all while endlessly upgrading the network as our cities grow, but I think we would all pull out our hairs when the numbers never work out. Hehe, I was glad early plans for SimCity 3000 dropped the overly tedious idea of manually selecting the timing cycles on intersection streetlights. Neat, but not necessary...for a model just assume some average or optimal level.

I must confess too that pipe-laying is to me somewhat like tedious busy work. I understand the idea of the integrated system wiring approach that SimCity has in the past always pushed when it comes to growing cities. However, I always felt their focus on abstracted input/output city service management missed the physical aspect of designing where a city with a given hydrology and climate actually gets its water supply from and how it maintains that supply, which tends more to define how a city can grow or develop. River systems, ground water, natural aquifers, cisterns, open-surface reservoirs, aqueduct importation, desalination, watershed drainage and flooding...there is a lot to play with outside of just plopping a conveniently strategic pump whenever needed. One person's veins pretty much look and work like any other person's veins; it is instead the amount of water they get that determines hydration, health, and growth. As far as cities and regions are concerned, potable water has always ultimately been worth its weight in gold.

[patriots_1228 51]

eh...i'll admit dont like pipe laying either...

[Jasoncw 11,839]

I also don't like water pipes. A lot of the time early on in the city I just make a massive grid covering the map, so that I don't have to think about them anymore.

But I would be interested more in the physical side of the water system like Odainsaker.

[schm0 27]

I like water pipes, too... but they can be annoying. I'm on the fence on this one. Water distribution needs to be one of the things a city needs for survival, but it should be more intuitive like power systems, I agree.

[Artman94 2]

I'm not so sure which game's pipe laying is harder-SimCity 2000 or SC4.

However, I do agree pipes can be...a bit frustrating.

What Jasoncw said that he lays a huge grid of water pipes early in the game is exactly what I do.

[baertooth 330]

I wonder how hard it would be to put the abiltity to turn off the need for water pipes in the options page? Or maybe make the pipes act like the power does and you need to build an infrastructure to move water a long distance instead?

[The_Dalai_Llama 15]

In my cities, I place water pipes underneath all of my roads... and it works for me. The SC4 water system is alright, in my opinion... but I can see how some people find it annoying. Like power, water is a necessary utility and can't be ignored.

[Shoreman905 1]

Dalai Llama has it down. Water, power, transportation, SC4 makes you realise just how complicatied running a municipality is. It takes all those departments to make even a small city work. I think it is one of the gems of this game, Certainly they could have written it so you didn't even think of water or power, fire police, just build buildings, but that isn't close to life or the premise of this game. Long live SC4.

[Mr. Flibble 134]

Yes, water in the city is essential and I don't want to see any consideration of a city's water needs removed at all. Perhaps simplifying it to the level of the power grid is going too far, but I think having to basically duplicate the road network underground with water pipes adds a level of tedium to the game for little gain.

[purpledaddy 6]

Perhaps good computer game creation would allow players options to what extent they want or don't want to deal w/ those or other aspects of city management.    Candidly my first "cheat buildings" that I downloaded were ones that gave me easier control over water, power, and pollution that I inserted when I didn't want to deal w/ them while I planned other aspects.

[UltraGIR XL 3]

I would argue that it's a necessary part of the city's BUDGET to have power and water supplies. That was one thing that always got me engaged in SimCity: balancing the budget. It'll be too easy to balance it all without 'em. I recall my water sector was one of my costliest (that is, until I started using the large high schools and the STEX's 14-floor hospital) areas in my budget.

[megalopolitan 0]

Originally posted by: seanivs Very few of us, however, experience clown schools, candy houses, Stalinist prisons, floating stoplights, mimes being hauled off by thuggish police, etc..quote>

What are you talking about?  I deal with that stuff every day!

I absolutely enjoy the details of building cities, especially transportation.  If I didn't I wouldn't play this game.  And while water pumps, towers, and sanitiation were good ideas, the water pipes could have been left out, until someone came along and said...

Hey, it isn't realistic not to have water pipes... lol 

[Ntq€310 1]

well water pipes makes the game more realestic, i think in simcity 300 they STiNKED, but In Simcity 4 they were great

[Odainsaker 2,133]

I don't think they need to be eliminated, but reworked to remove the tedium. We don't actively draw each individual trash pickup route, although refuse removal is a vital city function and a major part of planning city services. Ever sat in a city council planning commitee listening to arguements over allowing development of some swaft of land while also holding to the currently existing capacity and budget constraints of available city service trash pickup? It would be mind-numbing dreck.

It's already grossly abstracted, so just simplify it more...have basic water pipes automatically created while laying roads. You can then expand and fit minor options for oddball unusual conditions like deliberately water-starved colonias or water pumps disconnected from the city, etc. They remain there, but instead of tedium being the primary focus, we can look instead to bigger grander parts of the design and planning.

Hmm, I just realized all this time we have never had sewer lines and storm drainage lines...ack, unrealistic! Boo, boycott!!!

[ADG 0]

I never really liked having to lay down the pipes myself, but on the other hand it doesn't annoy me either

The game should have several difficulty levels, where each level defines what you need to do:

EASY:

Pipes and powerlines are out of the game

Taxes can go higher, before people start complaining about taxes

Sims don't mind spending hours to get to work

You start with a lot of money

MEDIUM:

Powerlines are in the game. Pipes works the same way as powerlines, where you only need to build them when you want water to go an area far away

HARD:

Pipes and powerlines works as in SC4

Sims hates taxes, make sure the taxpayers money is spent on what they want, otherwise they'll leave the city, if the taxes are too high

Sims don't want to spend much time getting to and from work, 30 minutes tops

You start with a loan

CUSTOM:

Where you can... customize the difficulty

Or something like that... that should make hardcore SimCity fans happy that you get a challenging and more realistic game, while at the same time make new players happy that they can get a city with millions of happy sims within no time

This is IMHO much better than the "difficulty" settings in SC4, where the only difference was the amount of money you started the game with

[Artman94 2]

ADG...that is a good idea...especially the "costum" option...

[MrCinatit 30]

I loath laying water pipes - any cheat, any modification, any whatever I could find to give me water everywhere, I would use it.

And, that is indeed a great idea ADG.

[IDS2 3,344]

"Attention everybody! Welcome to the 18th annual MAXIS PIPE-LAYING COMPETITION!"

OK, I admit it, I don't even use water pipes. I just turn on the howdryiam cheat and voila, no worries. I wouldn't mind if they were in future games because the appearance of a water tower makes a city more realistic, jowever, the pipe-laying is more than I wish to cope with. So I'm neutral.

[Mr. Flibble 134]

Tsk, tsk, ADG...in this day of SC:S having to make that kind of a choice is too complicated. Your options menu has one choice "Easy". The end.  In game it's up to you whether you want to have water or bubbly kool-aid as the substance in the pipes you never interact with depending on how many mime factories you plop.

Originally posted by: ADG I never really liked having to lay down the pipes myself, but on the other hand it doesn't annoy me either

The game should have several difficulty levels, where each level defines what you need to do:

EASY:

Pipes and powerlines are out of the game

Taxes can go higher, before people start complaining about taxes

Sims don't mind spending hours to get to work

You start with a lot of money

MEDIUM:

Powerlines are in the game. Pipes works the same way as powerlines, where you only need to build them when you want water to go an area far away

HARD:

Pipes and powerlines works as in SC4

Sims hates taxes, make sure the taxpayers money is spent on what they want, otherwise they'll leave the city, if the taxes are too high

Sims don't want to spend much time getting to and from work, 30 minutes tops

You start with a loan

CUSTOM:

Where you can... customize the difficulty

Or something like that... that should make hardcore SimCity fans happy that you get a challenging and more realistic game, while at the same time make new players happy that they can get a city with millions of happy sims within no time

This is IMHO much better than the "difficulty" settings in SC4, where the only difference was the amount of money you started the game withquote>

[John-SJ 13]

I always saw water pipes as something that could be removed from SimCity games without detracting from (my) gameplay at all.  I always viewed the need to lay pipes as unnecessary drudgery.

[megalopolitan 0]

The way it was done made it unnecessary. In 99% of cities you're going to lay water over the whole map. One kind of pipe and you just don't have any options but to lay it all out. I doubt water pipes are the problem, its more the way it was done.

Sewer lines, storm drains, aqueducts, flood stages, all of that would have been cool if well done into a design that caused you to think about the implications of your actions when it came time for the city to survive weather, storms, hurricanes, disasters, and all that.

I guess I'll have to settle for gingerbread and a candy cane? I don't think so lol...

[John-SJ 13]

"I guess I'll have to settle for gingerbread and a candy cane? I don't think so lol..."

Fortunately, you won't have to.  If you don't want those things you always have the option of not building them.  Simple as that.

edit: sp

[schm0 27]

Megalopolitan: excellent idea. We've all wanted to see weather in our game, but all we got was a couple clouds here and there, a tornado/hurricanew in the game, and some modded "rain tools" that disappear the next time you load the city. I think I'm going to add flood drains to my next city. What a cool effect.

[smstevenms 7]

Can't we just create a pre set up pipe system, pre spaced? That way you don't have to spend so much time just laying pipe back & forth, just plop & go. I use the largest sized cities so this can be very time consuming. I stopped using the natural disaters on SC3000 ULM. because the earthquakes kept destroying my pipes & my beautiful cities to.

[smstevenms 7]

No had any ideas of a bat that is water pipe sections?

[TheJackalope 0]

Auto pipes to build with roads is another option. Storm Water while being extremely realistic and probably pretty fun, would be very hard to simulate. You would really have to calculate individual basins and run drainage(pipe or ditch) from them to either a large waterway or have a holding area at the site, and have it work on either pumps or gravity.