Are you representative

[LeonardoDV 0]

Hi all!

First time poster - was drawn here by various hype around SCS and CL2... I have an open question - I really don't want it to be interpreted as a criticism of you all, I'm genuinely curious to the answer... What I want to know is: are you really representative of all SimCity fans in your criticism of SCS?

I mean, the various SC incarnations sold tens of millions of copies, and even if there are over a hundred thousand of you, that's still only a tiny percentage of the total... And only a tiny percentage of those hundred thousand are actually active... And you have to admit that you are statistically fairly non-representative (being mostly at the more extreme hardcore end of the spectrum)....

So why is it that you feel you can speak for the millions of other SimCity players who have never visited this site...?

Again, please don't interpret this as an attack, it's not a rhetorical question...! Just want to know how you feel about it...

Thx for any replies!

[JanYpe 17]

That's an ambitious name you have there newbie.

So why is it that you feel you can speak for the millions of other SimCity players who have never visited this site...?quote>

For the same reason that a lot of people seem to believe that EA/Maxis/TM owes them something: The idea that the world really does revolve around them. They feel they should be catered to at all costs, ignoring reason, expense and business sense.

For some, who have invested a lot of time and effort into this game, it's just easy to forget that even though they are vocal and productive, they are still a minority. The sad fact is that even great creators can get pushed around.

[Silur 3,309]

Hi, LeonardoDV

First - WELCOME SIMTROPOLIS ...

I know - SC4 today living only with this site ...

May be Simtropolians about 170 000, but may be 30 of Simtropolians make this game - Gloria for ever !!!!! 

And may be you can listen our voices ?

And support  JanYpe !!!

And don't forget about may be 500 000 players in RUSSIA -UKRAINE -BELORUS - KAZACHSTAN  - this players this game only illegal version - legal game SC4 inaccessible ...

I have legal SC DeLuxe UK version - but this is only one ... and I live in Russia with SC4 UK !!!

But I have about 7 versions SC4 from Russia to China ....

I can't buy second SC4 De Luxe legal ...

And my mind - Tsunami about SCS must dead today !!!

[Braxton 0]

Originally posted by: LeonardoDV

So why is it that you feel you can speak for the millions of other SimCity players who have never visited this site...?quote>

Why is it that public opinion polls can speak for everyone (we're talking 100 million people here) when the sampling of people is under 10,000?

Why is it that certain groups/people think they can speak for millions of people?

[John-SJ 13]

I think the only thing that is fair to say is that the majority of people who post in SC:S threads are anti-SC:S.  But since posting is a choice, and really, of the tens of thousands of Simtropolis members, only a tiny fraction of them post regularly, what that means in terms of the entire community is suspect.

If you look around for those who post an opposing viewpoint, you will notice that these viewpoints are generally ignored.  I think those with those opposing viewpoints for the most part have decided to keep quiet or go elsewhere.

And welcome to Simtropolis!

[feelgood 0]

Well, statistic can never be exact. Sample and the whole population are two different things.

I too, think most people who talk in SCS threads are anti-SCS since we always want to express our disappointment. People who like it may just go away in fear of being flame, who knows. I, for once, a bit disappointed with SCS now but still hope it turns out to be a great game.

[Silur 3,309]

Well... Well... Well...

There are little people in Simtropolis - only about 180 000 - GOVNO VOPROS - but this is great site for SC4 and for ever !!!!!

Don't touch this ...

[MrCinatit 30]

I think you have a rather valid point.

Yes, this is quite a large fan site - however, does it represent the majority opinion? I think not - this is only a very small slice of it.

We are mainly the hearty ones who have stuck with the game the longest - but while that does give us a say on how we prefer SC4, it really gives us no right in demanding the next installment should have what.

[JakeMD 107]

alot of us play simcity on a regular basis, me, i play all of them quite a bit, so alot of us CAN be critics for

SCS, but i do see your point, but its ok, this is what we think, but if you or other sites, think different, thats ok.

[Spinmaster 75]

I've followed most of the threads, and even put my 2 cents in several of them. I think there's misconception that a majority even here flat-out hate the game. A few do, and a few certainly have gone too far - and still do to some extent - with their disdain for it. But from what I gather, most folks don't seem to hate SCS, they just don't accept the notion that it is or should be a "Sim City" sequel. For the moment I'm ignoring all the posts for and against the graphics. 1) I actually think they look pretty good and I realistically understand some degree of detail must be sacrificed to go full 3D ... some are ok with this, some not. 2) while a few do seem hell-bent on damning the graphics, the graphics hardly seem to be the core of discontent from most of the posts I've read.

The focus of discontent is this:

Sim City original: "ooooo... I can build a city"

Sim City 2000: "ooooo.... look at all the new things I can do to build a city"

Sim City 3000: "ooooo.... look at all the new things I can do to build a city"

Sim City 4: "ooooo.... look at all the new things I can do to build a city"

.

Sim City Societies: "ummm... ok great, I now have to care how my people feel about each other, sounds interesting... but I have to give up all those things I like to use to build a city?"quote>

I'm not trying to represent anyone in this post, not even myself. It's just the facts of the progression of this game over the last 18 years... until now. And that last part about SC:S is paraphrasing (with bias, admittedly, but I don't think I'm stretching it much) EA's and TM's own statements - that they're, by their own statements, taking out a lot of the "micromanagement" features and other aspects - things that were progressively added to each sequel in the line. The focus of the series has always been on building the city, until now.

Interesting you chose a famous artist for your member name. A lot of the long-timers, and even the committed newbies here, regard their SC experiences almost like art. They're quite understandably upset that EA, while giving them a nice new canvas and a bright new studio, is taking away most of their favorite brushes and replacing them with crayons.

[LeonardoDV 0]

Thanks for the replies and the welcomes...!

Sp a follow-up question... It's quite clear how the hard-core communtiy feel about SCS - but what do you think the rest of the SC players - the peeps who picked up the game, played for a few weeks, built up 3 or 4 cities and had fun blowing them up with volcanoes - what do you think all those people are gonna make of it?

Do you feel they're going to be annoyed (though probably less so, since they haven't invested years of time into it) at the apparently radical changes? Or are they going to be looking forward to something a little different?

That's the kind of situation I'm in - played SC2000 quite intensively for a couple of months years ago, and just recently got interested in builders again... And I'm not quite sure what to make of SCS yet - just waiting for more info. In the meantime I've started playing both SC4 and CL, and I have to say I'm thoroughly enjoying both of them...! I'm half tempted to start a CJ with two 'identical' cities, one in SC4 and one in CL, to see how their progress compares... Not sure I'll have the dediciation to stick with it though... S

[schm0 27]

Originally posted by: John-SJ I think the only thing that is fair to say is that the majority of people who post in SC:S threads are anti-SC:S.  But since posting is a choice, and really, of the tens of thousands of Simtropolis members, only a tiny fraction of them post regularly, what that means in terms of the entire community is suspect.

If you look around for those who post an opposing viewpoint, you will notice that these viewpoints are generally ignored.  I think those with those opposing viewpoints for the most part have decided to keep quiet or go elsewhere.

And welcome to Simtropolis!quote>

John-SJ makes an excellent post in response to LeonardoDV's "rhetorical" question. I would like to add my own $.02 to it all. Go to slashdot, 1up.com, or any other site that allows comments on the news stories they publish. You will find a large majority of the readers there enraged or disappointed with the new direction SCS will be taking. Add to that the furor on several other SimCity websites with forums, you have a signigicant active online community. This niche represents, well, us.

Then, we have the casual player. The player that just plays the vanilla version of the games... the person that just pops it in a plays. Now here we have something interesting. I have faith that people are going to see the art on the back of the box and quickly pass it up... or maybe they'll buy it. Once they see how it plays, who knows what they'll think?

And then, we have the *****. (I can't believe the slang for "new player" is asterisked out.) The player that has never seen a screenshot of SC4. The kid whose parents hadn't even met when SimCity first hit the shelves in '89. We're talking 8 year old kids. We have to be ready for the realization that this game could be targeted at the extremely young, and not us aging fogies. Who knows how this age bracket could influence the sales of the game?

Just my two pennies.

[gshmails 536]

What you have to understand is that the loud complaints will always dominate the comments.  The people who are not upset are not spending all their free time commenting about it on these websites.  No one cares if I make a comment that says "I like it".  Moreover, why would someone want to post that comment knowing that there are angry fan out there waiting to jump on positive feedback.

Also, It would be interesting to break down the complaints by age.  Most younger people (both here and in the real world) are outraged by things easier than their older counterparts.  It is not an endorsement of either point of view, just different ages react differently to polarizing news and events.  A younger fan will scream bloody murder, whereas an older fan will take a wait and see approach.  This is not a blanket statement, just a general observation.

Lastly, places like this are exactly where the outrage should be.  I do not agree with the people who go to TM's website and blast the game there, but here we are free to post our feelings (as long as it is not over the top personal attacks).

No one is speaking for millions of fans, just posting their comments in a way that makes it sound as if they are.  Just my observation about all of this.

[Giligone 10]

A very valid question Leo. I think its been pretty well covered thus far. I really have to agree with Spinmaster on this one. The main basis for all complaints I've seen focus around this.

SimCity has always been a realistic urban simulation program, not a game. It has no end objectives or goals as most games do. Thus, I think its safe to say most people who play it for more than a few days/weeks are more interested in creating realistic cities and not playing a city building game. This however is exactly what SCS is, a game (so far as we can tell at this early stage). Now this doesn't make it inherently bad, or of poor quality. It could be the best city building game ever made! But that doesn't change the fact that SimCity has been, up till this point, not a game in so much as it is a simulation program. Thus, the 'hardcore' players, who want more detail and more options to make their cities even more realistic, are 'bummed out' because SC4 is really the only such program available.

When people are saying that 'no-one who plays SimCity' will like it I believe they are referring to other such 'hardcore' players and not the common gamer.

[SystemUK 0]

It is more likely that people here do actually represent the majority (or a very, very, very vocal minority).

If you take this and then multiply it to get how ever many copies have been sold you get an idea of the breakdown. Just as polls are done and companies do market research. Obviously, though, ST is more for the hardcore gamer and sometimes this isn't always the case.

Are you really bargaining on everyone but the ones that have shown their sadness at SCS being in favour of this step?

[cirugo 1,889]

It's not just this site.  Check out the comments on ANY site that is allowing comments on this.  Google SimCity Societies and check it out.  The commentary is pretty overwhelmingly negative.  Does that still speak to a MAJORITY?  Perhaps not...but people who are interested enough to actually be following it and commenting on it don't seem to like it.  That does not bode well at all.

[Gman55 0]

Leonardo: Welcome to ST!

Now to answer your question

It's not just SimTrop: plenty of gaming forums I frequent have reacted unfavorably or at best lukewarm to the SCS concept. Part of the outrage, I think, stems from EA's history of "dumbing down" and outright bastardizing certain games (see post Westwood Command&Conquer). To see them do it to a classic game like SimCity really grates on people...

ST, I think, speaks for the core group of SC fans who invest tons of time and energy making mods, BATs, and CJs -- stuff that's kept SC4 alive longer than anyone really expected. In another topic, I essentially said that ST represents such a small market that EA can afford to ignore it. That's just business.

SCS is such a departure from classic SimCity conventions that it really shouldn't have SimCity in the title. No zoning, powerplants, water pipes? This is why many long-time PC gamers are upset or disappointed with the direction the series is headed.

If EA wasn't looking to cash in on the SimCity brand, they'd be better off simply naming it "SimSocieties."

[Mr. Flibble 134]

I'm not sure why Jan is disdainful and dismissive of so many of us who feel this is a terribly wrong-headed step for the SimCity franchise to take. There are people who have gone overboard here and elsewhere in stating their opinions, but to think that all or even the majority of us here railing against this game are the fan community equivalents of little brats sniveling because we're not being catered to, is disingenuous. This game could have been called anything but SimCity and I don't think it would have had 1/10th of the impact it's having here and elsewhere. It could be SimTown, SimSociety, SimAnything....but the fact that EA, Maxis, and/or Tilted Mill DID slap the long-established SimCity name on it means that it's not unfair that we should have a reasonable expectation that it will bear a resemblances to its past self and advance the series in more ways than merely going to bad 3D graphics and the ridiculous theme options mentioned so far.

[bosiydid 0]

I'm a new posters, although I've been reading and prowling here for years. I was so disturbed by the direction of the new game that I saw it appropriate to register (I actually registered some time ago but have never posted) and voice my concerns. I suspect there are many more long time fans of the series that simply have not found an outlet for their frustrations as of yet. Don't kid yourself, there are others who have recently joined simply to voice their frustrations on this fundamental change to a series that didn't need the fundamental change.