Mass transit developments

[hamsterTK 93]

EDIT: I have changed the title to remove the North American part. You can talk about transit anywhere in the world now

Im fascinated by urban rail systems. The AU&P section here on ST never seems to have that stuff, so here I am bringing it here

Most of this information is gleaned from sites like SSP, so if you are active there this probably wont be news to you

also, if I post a picture of yours, and you request I make it a link, or host it on my own terms, or even remove it, just ask. I'll try to not post anything without acknowledging where it came from.

Anyways, right now in the US there are 3 new rail systems nearing completion or at least in the construction phases

1. Phoenix, Arizona

-Opens 2008

-20 miles

-27 stations

a pic of a assembled piece of body being put on display a few months ago:

(from wikipedia)

The new japanese-built cars are now in the states and undergoing testing

PHOTO CREDIT: VERTEX@ SKYSCRAPERPAGE.COM

2. Charlotte, NC

-Opens December this year

-9.6 miles

-15 stations

(images from wikipedia)

3. Seattle, Washington-

-Opens 2008

-15.7 miles

-14 stations

PHOTO CREDIT: FLICKR ACCOUNT

......

I have more stuff on extensions in other cities, but i'll find it later, i have to leave right now

[paperboy15 4]

Ahhh, yum yum. New light rail construction!

Portland, OR:

The Green Line (these tracks will be partly shared with the Yellow Line) to open in 2009:

A Simulation

[Duke87 1,070]

Well, it's not a new system, but the Second Avenue Subway in New York has started phase 1 of construction. Should be complete in 2009, barring any further delays. But then there's 3 more phases.... the whole thing won't be done until at least 2020. It's taking so long because they're boring the tunnels since cut and cover, though faster, isn't a viable option today because it would be too much of a disruption to traffic. And if you've ever been in Manhattan, you know how bad the traffic can get... The real challenge is driving in it, though. Everyone drives aggressively, and if you don't, you're going nowhere fast since everyone will just cut you off.

[Socorocks 7]

Is there a sort of population threshold that must be attained before a city can support a light-rail investment with ridership?

[ACEfanatic 7]

Originally posted by: Socorocks Is there a sort of population threshold that must be attained before a city can support a light-rail investment with ridership?quote>

Not so much population as density.

-ACE

[bakercity 270]

Kenosha, Wisconsin has a simmular thing using old PCC cars bought from Toronto Transit in Toronto Canada back in the year 2000 and they are now owned and operated by Kenosha Area Transit. More information is on Wikipedia and search under "Kenosha". Plus they are only 25 cents to ride a loop of about 1 mile in downtown Kenosha connecting Metra Station (Former Chicago Regional Transit train) to Lake Michigan and rest of downtown.

[mencc1701 0]

I'm rather surprised another city would use those PCC streetcars... that's kind of limiting the options available, due to the strange track gauge used by the TTC. The city would only be able to buy designs that have already been used or commission by the TTC.

Speaking of Toronto, I believe that the Yonge-University-Spadina subway line is being extended out towards York University and the Downsview area, which is both long-awaited and long-needed. Info is on Wikipedia.

As for my own Ottawa... well, that's a bit of a saga. We have the O-Train LRT, which runs a short, 9 km route from the southern end of the city to just west of the downtown core at LeBreton Flats. North-south transit isn't what the city needs, though, as it spreads to the east and west... so naturally, there was a plan in development to create more N\S LRT lines, which would run at street level through an already congested downtown.

This plan was pretty horrible, and was scrapped, and currently a new, east\west line is being considered, using a combination of existing lines and new lines, and would run as a subway beneath downtown. Hopefully this gets approved, as it is actually a pretty good plan, but I'm not holding my breath.

Thankfully, though, OC Transpo does run a Transitway, a buses-only road with 80-90 km\h speed limits, running many articulated buses. It makes the train situation not *quite* so desperate.

[Micah 16]

Houston made it's mass transit about 3 to 4 years ago and will be expanding on it shortly. 

The complaint against it was that no one would use it, and now thousands of people use it everyday.

Anyway, here are some pics:

This is towards the medical center (not downtown):

[spacedragonblue 1]

This is the latest reincarnation of a proposal to turn Manhattan's 42nd st. into a pedestrian mall with a light rail running down the middle. I'm sure it'll never happen, but it's a cool idea.

Oh, and as someone who lives here in NYC, and has experienced the horror of riding the 4,5 and 6 during rush hour, I'm desperately hoping they'll finish the 2nd ave. subway. Hey...it's only taken them 50 years to get this far.

[Jasoncw 11,839]

Some level of population density is required, but not as much as people usually think.

What is really required is money and some political will.

It's great that these projects are happening.  In the past, most North American cities (even the podunks) has some level of effective mass transit.  The more we build up mass transit the better, in my opinion.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Some level of population density is required, but not as much as people usually think.

What is really required is money and some political will.

It's great that these projects are happening.  In the past, most North American cities (even the podunks) has some level of effective mass transit.  The more we build up mass transit the better, in my opinion.quote>

thats unfortunatly the problem here. Back in the Victorian Times, if they wanted to build a railway, it would be built. Now its all 'Feasability Studies' and politics. The Portsmouth Metro was cancelled in 2005 because it was expensive, yet there are only 3 road bridges into Portsmouth and only 1 Rail bridge. Manchester gets it instad. Portsmouth needed it more.

[Sim_BOB 2]

The DART in dallas is really nice

I used to ride from Parker to Akard every time I went downtown. It's a fun trip!

[Yoman3 5]

Originally posted by: Duke87 Well, it's not a new system, but the Second Avenue Subway in New York has started phase 1 of construction. Should be complete in 2009, barring any further delays. But then there's 3 more phases.... the whole thing won't be done until at least 2020. It's taking so long because they're boring the tunnels since cut and cover, though faster, isn't a viable option today because it would be too much of a disruption to traffic. And if you've ever been in Manhattan, you know how bad the traffic can get... The real challenge is driving in it, though. Everyone drives aggressively, and if you don't, you're going nowhere fast since everyone will just cut you off.quote>

A very accurate description of NY traffic

[yamaneko 2]

That is true.  For the purposes of a traffic simulation, there are some other factors.

1.  Density

2.  Expense:  the cheaper mass transit gets relative to auto use, the more use the system gets. For example, London has passed and New York and Chicago are considering tolls to enter the downtown, thus increasing the use of mass transit.  Conversely, metro Lafayette, IN lets Purdue and Ivy Tech students, staff and faculty ride in return for partial subsidy paid by the schools through student fees -- in return 10,000+ students do not drive during the morning rush hour.  As the price of gas soars in America, trains and busses tend to overcrowd (see 5.)

3.  Convenience:  transit routes should coincide with the most frequently taken trips.  Bus or train frequency is important, especially for people who do not work something normal business hours.

4.  Safety:  if the transportation is not perceived to be safe, then people who can will endure greater expense to drive.  (Sadly, perceived and actual safety do not always coincide in the United States, and possibly other countries)

5.  Pleasant surroundings:  a crowded, urine-soaked, graffiti-riddled car on bumpy tracks attracts fewer riders than a clean car on smooth tracks where all may sit down.  The masochistic pleasure some New Yorkers took in their nasty subway cars 20 years ago is by no means universal. 

[Jasoncw 11,839]

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Some level of population density is required, but not as much as people usually think.

What is really required is money and some political will.

It's great that these projects are happening.  In the past, most North American cities (even the podunks) has some level of effective mass transit.  The more we build up mass transit the better, in my opinion.quote>

thats unfortunatly the problem here. Back in the Victorian Times, if they wanted to build a railway, it would be built. Now its all 'Feasability Studies' and politics. The Portsmouth Metro was cancelled in 2005 because it was expensive, yet there are only 3 road bridges into Portsmouth and only 1 Rail bridge. Manchester gets it instad. Portsmouth needed it more.quote>

I totally agree.  I don't blame anyone in particular, because the groups need to do studies to apply for money from the upper levels of government, but they're so pointless most of the time.  For some things, a study would be necessary, but most of the time everyone knows it would work (except for the people who think that mass transit never works) but they need to spend hundreds of millions on studies.  For all the money the Detroit area (and I know a lot of places) has spent on studies, we could have built something by now. 

[Jasoncw 11,839]

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Some level of population density is required, but not as much as people usually think.

What is really required is money and some political will.

It's great that these projects are happening.  In the past, most North American cities (even the podunks) has some level of effective mass transit.  The more we build up mass transit the better, in my opinion.quote>

thats unfortunatly the problem here. Back in the Victorian Times, if they wanted to build a railway, it would be built. Now its all 'Feasability Studies' and politics. The Portsmouth Metro was cancelled in 2005 because it was expensive, yet there are only 3 road bridges into Portsmouth and only 1 Rail bridge. Manchester gets it instad. Portsmouth needed it more.quote>

I totally agree.  I don't blame anyone in particular, because the groups need to do studies to apply for money from the upper levels of government, but they're so pointless most of the time.  For some things, a study would be necessary, but most of the time everyone knows it would work (except for the people who think that mass transit never works) but they need to spend hundreds of millions on studies.  For all the money the Detroit area (and I know a lot of places) has spent on studies, we could have built something by now. 

[CasperVg 372]

Well, not exactly north american here, however there's a big difference:

however we have some newer ones too:

Again, this is Ghent, Belgium not anywhere North-American

If your interested, here's a map of the light rail lines in Ghent & it's suburbs (small PDF)

http://www.delijn.be/documentatie/oostvlaanderen/netplannen/regio_gent_kleinstedelijke_gebieden.pdf

[CasperVg 372]

Well, not exactly north american here, however there's a big difference:

however we have some newer ones too:

Again, this is Ghent, Belgium not anywhere North-American

If your interested, here's a map of the light rail lines in Ghent & it's suburbs (small PDF)

http://www.delijn.be/documentatie/oostvlaanderen/netplannen/regio_gent_kleinstedelijke_gebieden.pdf

[crazyyaya 4]

It's about time North America started turning to mass transit. Maybe there is hope for the future.

[crazyyaya 4]

It's about time North America started turning to mass transit. Maybe there is hope for the future.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Some level of population density is required, but not as much as people usually think.

What is really required is money and some political will.

It's great that these projects are happening.  In the past, most North American cities (even the podunks) has some level of effective mass transit.  The more we build up mass transit the better, in my opinion.quote>

thats unfortunatly the problem here. Back in the Victorian Times, if they wanted to build a railway, it would be built. Now its all 'Feasability Studies' and politics. The Portsmouth Metro was cancelled in 2005 because it was expensive, yet there are only 3 road bridges into Portsmouth and only 1 Rail bridge. Manchester gets it instad. Portsmouth needed it more.quote>

I totally agree.  I don't blame anyone in particular, because the groups need to do studies to apply for money from the upper levels of government, but they're so pointless most of the time.  For some things, a study would be necessary, but most of the time everyone knows it would work (except for the people who think that mass transit never works) but they need to spend hundreds of millions on studies.  For all the money the Detroit area (and I know a lot of places) has spent on studies, we could have built something by now.  quote>

Exactly! Like the Detroit People Mover extension that doesnt seem to be going anywhere. That would connect to the loop and make it actually half usefull. I think the extension has been proposed for years, but nothing.

London, believe it or not, has a similar problem. The new Tube Line the Chelsea - Hackney line (in true London fashion nicknamed, and subsequently renamed the 'Chelney') has been proposed for years. And nothing. Its a much needed line that would relieve pressure on the Northern and Central Lines. Yet nothing.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Some level of population density is required, but not as much as people usually think.

What is really required is money and some political will.

It's great that these projects are happening.  In the past, most North American cities (even the podunks) has some level of effective mass transit.  The more we build up mass transit the better, in my opinion.quote>

thats unfortunatly the problem here. Back in the Victorian Times, if they wanted to build a railway, it would be built. Now its all 'Feasability Studies' and politics. The Portsmouth Metro was cancelled in 2005 because it was expensive, yet there are only 3 road bridges into Portsmouth and only 1 Rail bridge. Manchester gets it instad. Portsmouth needed it more.quote>

I totally agree.  I don't blame anyone in particular, because the groups need to do studies to apply for money from the upper levels of government, but they're so pointless most of the time.  For some things, a study would be necessary, but most of the time everyone knows it would work (except for the people who think that mass transit never works) but they need to spend hundreds of millions on studies.  For all the money the Detroit area (and I know a lot of places) has spent on studies, we could have built something by now.  quote>

Exactly! Like the Detroit People Mover extension that doesnt seem to be going anywhere. That would connect to the loop and make it actually half usefull. I think the extension has been proposed for years, but nothing.

London, believe it or not, has a similar problem. The new Tube Line the Chelsea - Hackney line (in true London fashion nicknamed, and subsequently renamed the 'Chelney') has been proposed for years. And nothing. Its a much needed line that would relieve pressure on the Northern and Central Lines. Yet nothing.

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: crazyyaya It's about time North America started turning to mass transit. Maybe there is hope for the future.quote>

 

Well, there's always been mass transit. From highways to subways... 

In Europe, the population is very close together. In America, it's very spread apart. The areas that are like Europe (sprawl, megalopolises, etc.) have had transit for some time now. As for the rural areas, they simply rely on highways for mass transit or simple roads.

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: crazyyaya It's about time North America started turning to mass transit. Maybe there is hope for the future.quote>

 

Well, there's always been mass transit. From highways to subways... 

In Europe, the population is very close together. In America, it's very spread apart. The areas that are like Europe (sprawl, megalopolises, etc.) have had transit for some time now. As for the rural areas, they simply rely on highways for mass transit or simple roads.

[hamsterTK 93]

I have changed the title to remove the North American part

You can talk about transit anywhere in the world now

[hamsterTK 93]

I have changed the title to remove the North American part

You can talk about transit anywhere in the world now

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: Micah

In Europe, the population is very close together. In America, it's very spread apart. The areas that are like Europe (sprawl, megalopolises, etc.) have had transit for some time now. As for the rural areas, they simply rely on highways for mass transit or simple roads.quote>

True, population density does introduce a demand for mass transit, but until the 50s, most rural towns in the US had railroad or interurban trolley service. My hometown in NH (current pop c.a. 4000, 1950's pop c.a. 1000) had rail access until it was cut in the 50s. Thousands of small towns across the country experienced the same phenomenon. The US's 19th/early 20th century rail network was the envy of the world and reached literally any village in the US until it began to decay. More specifically, the Interstate Highway system and GM actively helped stamp it out.

You're correct that our population is relatively spread out in comparison to Europe. But the vast majority of our population does not live in rural areas as they so like to claim. Almost all of us live in suburban and exurban zones, which are definitely dense enough to support some means of public transit. But developers prefer to promote highway access and lollipop dead-end road and feeder networks in order to keep automobile transportation dominant. In many parts of the country, this type of sprawl-like development is the only legal way to build, so developers actively eliminate the feasibility of mass transit (before it even has a chance) in order to maintain the automobile as the only practical means of travel.

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: Micah

In Europe, the population is very close together. In America, it's very spread apart. The areas that are like Europe (sprawl, megalopolises, etc.) have had transit for some time now. As for the rural areas, they simply rely on highways for mass transit or simple roads.quote>

True, population density does introduce a demand for mass transit, but until the 50s, most rural towns in the US had railroad or interurban trolley service. My hometown in NH (current pop c.a. 4000, 1950's pop c.a. 1000) had rail access until it was cut in the 50s. Thousands of small towns across the country experienced the same phenomenon. The US's 19th/early 20th century rail network was the envy of the world and reached literally any village in the US until it began to decay. More specifically, the Interstate Highway system and GM actively helped stamp it out.

You're correct that our population is relatively spread out in comparison to Europe. But the vast majority of our population does not live in rural areas as they so like to claim. Almost all of us live in suburban and exurban zones, which are definitely dense enough to support some means of public transit. But developers prefer to promote highway access and lollipop dead-end road and feeder networks in order to keep automobile transportation dominant. In many parts of the country, this type of sprawl-like development is the only legal way to build, so developers actively eliminate the feasibility of mass transit (before it even has a chance) in order to maintain the automobile as the only practical means of travel.

[simzebu 19]

My dad can remember trollies running down Second Avenue in Albany, NY. We got rid of them well before I was born. Now all we have is the CDTA bus lines. But, in an effort to make the worthless system better, we spent a ton of money to change the colors. Yay, progress!

[simzebu 19]

My dad can remember trollies running down Second Avenue in Albany, NY. We got rid of them well before I was born. Now all we have is the CDTA bus lines. But, in an effort to make the worthless system better, we spent a ton of money to change the colors. Yay, progress!