Simtropolis 1000

[hawkpride147 1]

as you all know, many other games have disappointed fans and many independent release games were attempted. most failed...we need to get the entire Sim City community on board with this. also...we need a different name than sims...EA likely has that trademarked, so if we come up with something new they can't sue us. if we can start getting this thing off the ground and EA realizes that we will crush SCS, they will be more likely to release the source code...especially if we agree to mod everything but as a dependency list SC4 delux/RH. that way they still make their money, and we get what we want...everyone is happy right?

[Daryn07 0]

This is one of the greatest and is surely going to be one of the hardest creation(s) members will (yea... will!) create. Programming is always a major issue and will take more than a few of us to "put into motion." One Idea I think is a MUST in my opinion is a CUSTOM NETWORK TOOL. Being able to create or combine your own networks allows individual looks or "Niche of a city" which in my opinion SC5 has a nice idea with, (for building types though) but we can do better. Also seasons within a city would be a nice addition to "Simtropolis." Rain, snow, lightning, drought, etcetera... each would be great... and as mentioned earlier in this thread... if the fillers filters on each network (read the beginning of this thread for "filler filters") tile(s) altered with season, the detail as such would be outstanding. So I am blabbering on about my 'wishes...' so here's a quick list of what I think would be a nice addition to such wonderful ideas thus far-

Custom Networks tool/program or "C.N.T."-

-This tool could combine presets like sc4's highway and EL-Rail and create custome networks from scratch. Lets say that you can draw "model lines" in the "C.N.T." program's 3d view. These lines would eventually hold some volume (or fill the lines w/ walls. for us non-smarties j/k) The model could consist of what would be in SC4: 1X1, 2X2, 3X3... and after the model is outlined, using textures that are either preset or created by other users or in a texture generating prog, could be applied to sections of the model. Each type of intersection or crossing would have to be created and those that aren't should in game be what in SC4 is "unsuitable Grade" or something like that. Than after the model is filled and you've pressed "okay" or something like that, you enter the directional edit screen; its a "top-down" view. You draw a line which would illustrate to the user which direction traffic would be traveling. Different color lines would mean different types of heights. (*pink = ground, *Green = El-1 or Highway hight.) So when green crosses pink, the game knows it's a "suitable grade" or not. Than press okay and the program automatically generates an unused code for the new transit piece/network. Now you are all welcome to adjust this Idea.

Seasons and Climates-

-Snow year round or deserts year round with an occasional rainstorm every hundred years or so.

-Disasters should (or maybe not... maybe we should vote!?!) be predetermined by the selected climate I.E. The seasonal setting is off, the climate for year round is Desert, Than the disasters would be Firestorm, Monsoon (as dry sand an rain make mud) Land Slides, Sink Holes etcetera...

-Seasonal Setting (simplistic) Which would enable all disasters, weather that differs at a rotating time not obligated by the time/or month.

-Lightning and Tornadoes should also drop from random storms and not just be a god mode thing.

Any other ideas?

Environmental things?-

Why don't we incorporate SC5's development thing (not the zones 'cause they don't have that...) in which I mean: a mighty, clean city with low crime develops and the goals are symbolic of that... a polluted, unemploying and criminal city develops and the goals reflect upon it but the goals should change as the environment changes.

Any other Ideas?

I would love feedback on the C.N.T. Idea... and I would help program it when this game gets in the hot seat.

[mqsim 1]

ok wow im not a programmer but i could help with some ideas such as basic designs for houses one idea i had was to have neighborhoods like one called woodlands and then you have the school called woodlands school and then woodlands libary  and another idea is that there is different civic bulidings like a rundown school a smaller hospital

hey what about missions not like U drive it but stuff like being interveiewed by the news and you have to anser correctly to get mayer rating up or down

WORKING ON LOGO NOW

EDIT:

Seasons and Climates-

-Snow year round or deserts year round with an occasional rainstorm every hundred years or so.

-Disasters should (or maybe not... maybe we should vote!?!) be predetermined by the selected climate I.E. The seasonal setting is off, the climate for year round is Desert, Than the disasters would be Firestorm, Monsoon (as dry sand an rain make mud) Land Slides, Sink Holes etcetera...

-Seasonal Setting (simplistic) Which would enable all disasters, weather that differs at a rotating time not obligated by the time/or month.

-Lightning and Tornadoes should also drop from random storms and not just be a god mode thing.quote>

i agree and the Seasons should increse or decrese the disrrabillaty in a area

and storms should make car crashes and other things

EDIT EDIT: wow this is going quite nice Pm me when you start making it

[_MostlyHarmless 17]

This sounds like a very cool project. Certainly with all of the talented minds here at ST something great can be achieved. But you want to make a whole new game from the ground up? Is that my understanding? A sort of "open-source" simcity clone? A lot of props if you all can pull it off, I'll be rooting for you!

[+Guest]

As I said I can draw guys, I'm a budding Illustrator. So whoever is incharge, emial me at tennis_trihard@hotmail.com and ask me for whatever you may want. I'd LOVE To be apart of this project.

[enigma174 0]

have you considered joining forces with the guys building Lincity? <http://lincity-ng.berlios.de/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>

I havn't had anything really to do with the project (apart from downloading it had having a wee play) but from what I understand, they've put a lot of effort into the engine. Personally I wasn't too impressed with the graphics, but if you could reprogram it to be compatable with the bat files on this site, then I think it would be well on the way to being what you want.

--e

[Daryn07 0]

E-174:

"Lincity" has many more steps to take before it reaches "eye-level" with SC4. And as is the subject of this thread is "Simtropolis 1000" I believe we should create our own game which would utilize an already massive community, and with a post section dedicated to the progress and processes used to create the game... the outcome could be a real record setter as well as just a really great game. (The first game brainstormed by a community of gamers without gaming and with gaming experience)

UPS-

If we asked to join with them, they would be more likely to do so than EA allowing us to crack the EXE.

DOWNS-

"Lincity" is at it's big 'change stage.' Programmers are learning new ways of writing the code and rendering in game content. "Simcity" however has so many in game features and so many more city like attributes (not to mention a very long; "santa's list-long size of code"), that joining with "Lincity" would almost going backwards... with no insult of their content... they are very talented in their work... but it's just not right to abandon what is the topic of this thread.

So let's stick to the subject at hand... and I have one question some one may have answered somewhere else, but it relates to this subject so I image it's fine to ask:

Altering the EXE is ILLEGAL... but what if we do not alter and only analyze the code? That way when reimplementing our own code, we have a "preset form" to give it. Thus the end product could essentially be more sim-listic rather than the make-over SC is undergoing via Tinted Roof or whatever their name is... props to um' but.... um cough.

[Wilfried Webber 22]

Hi everyone,

that's a nice idea joerg has there, but how about just a basic modular app everyone could freely extend?

For example via free zone, travel type and transit network slots.

Like there could be 4 basic types of roads - side streets, main streets, rural roads, and expressways, each of them with specific regulations concerning right-of-way, speed, intersection design, and parking possibilities - all of them coming as modules, and still with 251 out of 255 transit network slots extendible in any way people want to!

You could have three different types of side streets like two-way side street, one-way side street, divided residential avenue. All low-speed, low-capacity, and with streetside parking.

Further, you could design many different types of main streets, or expressways, like four-lane highway and twelve-lane highway. All this without changing the whole network each time as each were a network of their own! The same goes for any railway network, of course.

Creating bus and subway lines could be also quite easy when enough travel types were left free. Say there are 255 travel type slots. So you can define a certain number of bus travel types instead of having only one, with each of them acting like a bus line. If specified that a certain bus stop is transit enabled for the travel types "Red Bus Line" and "Blue Bus Line" only, you could easily create true bus lines "Red Bus Line" and "Blue Bus Line" by plopping a few bus stops with this setting.

Basically, zoning would go the same way. You program 255 zone slots, and people define the actual zone types like low-desity commercial office, or high-density residential-commercial services mixed-use. Thus, while the first zone type would get occupied by a commercial office-only building, the second zone type would get occupied by a building sharing both residential and commercial services occupants.

Sounds much more sophisticated than it really is! Just set occupants and stage/density values to the building, or lot, and go ahead with zoning the appropriate zone type. After all, modding could be much easier than it's now, since unused properties could be left out as others got added.

Green zones for parks could be this way specified so parks didn't need to be plopped anymore.

Just a few ideas!

[GoaSkin 2]

Reading the first time about this project... And sorry, first time not everything.

I read that there is already written anything about the free clone Lin City. A spin-off project called  Lin City NG uses 3D graphics. Because the simulator is already usable for much things, it may be usable for such a project. The quality of the building models is bad at the moment but there may be a way to intruduce existing BAT buildings into the game. 

I think we should enhance an existing project with our work instead of starting completely at the beginning.

[Daryn07 0]

Since this post seems to be really booming with ideas, why not start a chat room specifically on "Simtropolis 1000." Ideas would boom much quicker and subjects discussed would be copied and pasted in another thread.

Also Lincity would still need a major face lift as we are all talking and implying an entirely different "building and drawing method" (or the tile related cities VS 3d or 2.5d), which lincity and simcity both use (2.5d) at some level of gameplay.

-It also is currently a linux program... totally adds to difficulty and time if we were to convert it from linux to windows... and most of simtropolis users if not all (can't remember if SC4 was released on linux or not.)

Also Wilfried Webber, the animation that would be displayed via the code utilizing your idea wouldn't be an easy task. And balancing performance and quality also needs to be considered... Props on the Idea and the parks are a nice touch.

one more quick add... for those of you who have ever used the window's prog. paint... note that when you draw a line in any direction, the code for doing so basically states to draw a straight pixel-line from A (start line) to B (2nd Click). So let's say you have a 7X7 grid; you click on pixel 2 and then 6, the computer writes the path and you have your line. (the line is actually a road if you haven't gotten my point) SO in essence rather than merely N, NW, W, SW, S and etc... (straight and diagonal roads) you would be able to draw N, NW, NNW, NNNW, NNNNW, NNNNNW, W, SSSSSW, SSSSW, SSSW, SSW, SW, S... etc.... This is based on a 7X7 scale. a large city could be 256X256 making the appearance much more realistic if we used this method of drawing roads and networks. so once again, this would be much more lifelike and very large when it comes to code AND Animation.

[Spinmaster 75]

Altering the EXE is ILLEGAL... but what if we do not alter and only analyze the code? That way when reimplementing our own code....quote>

This is actually the primary reason for the "do not disassemble" clause in most EULA's. They're not so much worried about someone altering the executable, as they are about someone using their own code, algorithms, etc... - read "trade secrets" - to essentially build a competing product (or disclosing said secrets such that an existing competitor can use it to their advantage for the same purpose).

Even if the end result is "free" it's still competition. Consider the very premise of this thread: to build our own alternative to SCS... so we don't have to buy SCS, whether "Simtropolis 1000" becomes freeware, shareware, or a full-blown commercial product. If this project succeeds, many of us may buy SCS anyway under the premise that it's a "different game" anyway, but many simply don't want the "different game" in the first place, and thus won't buy it if they have an alternative (and some won't buy it at all, in protest... I think I'm of those, but I haven't finished mulling it over yet).

But... I ain't no party-pooper. I do see the exe being useful, but in a legal way (I think).

What about using the existing code to tag-in with our own? No changes to the existing exe, no blatant using of its code in this project, both of which would violate the EULA. You can probably get away with simply looking at it to get your own ideas, just watch that fine line between "learning something" and "plagiarizing." Instead, building an additional module which uses the existing exe as a base and extends some (possibly a lot) of its functionality. You launch the "new" game, it loads the existing exe, using the best parts of the existing SC4 et al (thus avoiding the "reinventing the wheel" syndrome for functions that are already good), while overriding and enhancing the functionality we want. e.g. override the graphics engine for the 3D concept, if it can be done practically, adding and enhancing networks, a new grid system, customizable menu features, the pathfinding.... oh wait, isn't this effectively what mods are doing anyway? Except the mods are taking advantage of existing tags in the code, exposed for the purpose of overriding. Many features don't have such tags, hence why they cannot be overridden by mods.

I'm not sure how practical this is. I mean, if 95% of the existing code ends up overridden then we didn't really save anything. But... has there been serious consideration of this option? (I'm not asking in any form of sarcastic tone, just floating the idea and wondering if anyone discussed it yet; I honestly haven't read every single post in this 16-page thread yet ).

[GoaSkin 2]

It should not be very complicated to build LincityNG for windows - and it would wonder me if there are not already binary packages. A member of sc4devotion tested it very quickly.

Most opensource games use the SDL framework what is not only availlable for Linux, Windows and Mac. If there is no way (what I don't think), it may be run through Cygwin.

[LivingInThePast 364]

Originally posted by: owenluby I'm all for Ill Tonkso being in charge of the rail infastructure quote>

As long there is single-track railroads!

[Superchan 23]

people keep ignoring my post. why make new graphics when we can make the game use 3dsmax/gmax models, allowing us to import sc4 custom content into the game, maybe make 3dsmax/gmax render diffrently, more zoom levels, 8 instead of 4 rotation angles, but the idea of using 3dsmax/gmax models would greatly speed up modeling, we could even work to get SC4 standard buildings in the game, the idea would speed up development a ton, but we would Re-render, for more zoom levels, and 8 rotation angles, do not ignore my post, please respond with your opion of my idea.

[mightygoose 92]

that is a prominent idea.... to use gmax etc to model with alternative render scripts.....

[david1314 44]

I posted this elsewhere, thought I'd put it here too:

12 Reasons Not to Go 2.5D

1. A 2.5d system is actually more complex to program than 3d.

2. A 2.5d system is more difficult to add plugins to (particularly with variable visual characteristics) because they must conform to the import format.

3. Maxis has 15 years experience on us with developing this far more difficult system

4. A grid will complicate locating buildings relative to a spline. We have a spline, lets make the building location off that.

5. There is already a very good grid-based 2.5d simulator out there

6. To build an urban simulator that won't piss people off a la SCS, we would need significant improvement on sc4

7. Where 3d can be indexed with simple files, the necessity for compiled files requires a slow process of reading each file to index...this will propagate throughout the game as indexing is necessary as in SC4 now (menus, city load, initial load, game exit...)

8. There are not significant advances to make in SC with a grid, the next big step is away from it.

9. The simplification of content will allow for much more overall variety, and much easier releases of complete sets.

10. I'm not sure of the existance of a 2.5d game engine, and I think the SC4 one is their own (and would lock us into binary-limited city sizes). We don't have the knowhow to do this.

11. A VARIETY of 3d game egines exist that support splines, which means mostly only game-behavior oriented programing.

12. We're all ready to loose the saw-tooth diagonal look (not only on diagonals but on ALL angles of road and curves)

[GoaSkin 2]

I think that S3D and FSH are no common file formats. The structure of the file has been figured out by reverse-engineering the DAT file content and the procedures in the modding tools is possibly not really legal.

Beside that, it is not possible to register GMAX anymore and the implementation of model files in SC4 is also not the best way. Each building is splitted into 20 two-sided models (one for each rotation and zoom level).

There may be a better way to implement buildings using a common model format that can be created with any modelling tool and not beeing bound to GMAX.

[Mayor AL 1]

Some small reaction here. (ok, that's not going to be true ) We have been discussing content, graphics, roads and so on for 16 pages now. Don't you think it's time to get something on (digital) paper? And I very like the idea of Wilfried Webber, let's just make everything possible for later modification and for now focus on getting something running. It doesn't matter if we have only 3 types of roads, only some civic services, little different RCI buildings, lots and so on. The main thing should be to get our first key points together and think of a way to get those main things done, the rest is for later, it's what we have MODers and BATers for.

So, as some have suggested, we need a seperate place to discuss seperate parts of our game. Using clear lists of arguments, like david did a bit above about the 3D question. We need to discuss things seperatly and pay attention to the most important points nescesary to get at least a very early part of ST-1000 running:

- 3D, 2.5D or other options and include how to get this part done (as we can read from many post, we need a 3D engine or any other peace of code capable of handling this basic part).

- gmax, 3ds max, high/polygon polygon and all other things concerning buildings, props, and other visual objects

- traffic, but not the kinds of roads or what kinds of transport to use, no, we have to decide the way in which traffic will get simulated, so how will people go to their jobs and so on.

- grid or not, if we choose to use full 3D I can conclude we won't need any grid (I am correct am I?) but if we use 2.5D or anything else, we probably need some king of grid. And if we want a decent, realistic looking city, I believe we should stick to buildings only having 4 different alingnments (or how do you call the directing of for example the entrance? in SC4 they can only point N-E-S-W and not even diagonal even though roads can which I believe should defenitely be possible)

- transit, how to get this part done, many ideas have arised for both grid and no-grid (my idea was that you could give a road a grid and then everthing else will align with the local grid).

- zoning, very important, will lots be difined as a building (directly to street or not) with a centain amount of ground around it (like somebody suggested) or will lots still be predefined and filled around by filler parts? Will we use the neighbourhood idea and other nice features people have suggested?

- public services, how will those work? Will school just have the cirkel around them, or will they serve near neigbourhoods, will the only handle a certain amount of transit tiles away?

- some more I guess... if you come up with one, send it to the forum admin who is in charge of the ST-1000 forum

Ok, and I said it would be a short post ... still I have some preverences which I like to share (I did above already, but there is more)

To start with, I believe we should go for 3D. We want ST-1000 to be special game and that means we go 3D. Another argument is that we don't really like the grid system, so hell with that and again we go 3D. Plus, in 3D we will be able to turn buildings any way we want and that way we can give a very varied look to our city and buildings will connect to roads in a betterlooking way. And while we are at the buildings, I prefer the system in which a certain building has a certain amount of land around it, that way many gaps can be filled without much trouble and I am sure there are programmers or other people who can come up with a very nice way to regulate the filling of an area in such a way the buildings have a path in front of their antrance and not somewhere in their backyard. Then we will also use the neighbourhood system, which brings us a lot of pro's, namely, a nice way to control specific parts of a city (so we can raise polluting industry taxes in a hood where we don't want them). Second we can assign fire departments, police and other services to one or more neigbourhoods (if you assign them to too many hoods the coverage will lack and crime or fires will arise). Third zoning can be regulated by hood and therefore create realisticly looking cities with skyscraper districts and at other places prevent any larger buildings which will help to decide what kind of eg. firedepartment you will plop. Then of course we also have the proposal system, very good idea and if worked out properly it will make the game perfect. If you could enter certain restrictions for real NOGO's and for possibilities you will get yourself a very well manageble city. And if we are doing nice things, we can add the construction mode in which you will have the possibility to test a new network before having to pay the big price (realistic prices should be implemented) and add a request of advice system which willl indicate a certain need or possibility in a hood, for example the request for a faster connection between a high wealth hood and a high wealth working area. And just a few more things to add, some realistic tranportation system which will make people travel even longer distances, here in the Netherlands people drive across the country to go to work (and I know the Netherlands aren't that impressingly big) and that means traffeling across the region of NY in SC4 or something. And my final addition, go for the expandable city area, so no more connecting seperate cites in order to get a metropole, but just be able to buy new land at the borders of your current city (this doesn't mean you won't be able to start multiple cities in a region which could even merge together).

And I still feel there could be some things to add, but for now, a game lik this would make my day, week of even month

[JanYpe 17]

That does seem a little strange. Mind you, I do believe that it is very very ambitious to try to construct a project of this scale over the internet. I'm still rooting for this project though.

[mightygoose 92]

edit okay peeps nothing to see.... need to think before speaking..... my bad

[JanYpe 17]

Things have been getting a little heated lately, they might have decided that it's just not worth the trouble.

(Before some nutter asks: No, that wasn't me. The only Spanish words I know are s

[debussyman 1,348]

And I'll certainly would, MG. I do think this project will go nowhere, but I abstained to post here in respect of you, who apparently think the contrary. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this game being a reality, but I seriusly think it won't be that way. Sorry if that offends you. And if you consider this a bannable offense, please feel free to do so...

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Seriously MightyGoose, it doesn't matter.  Don't bring any of that kind of stuff into this project, or anywhere for that matter.  What does posting that here accomplish?  Nothing, it just makes people upset at other people, and starts fighting, and makes everything sour for the people who were never interested in the politics in the first place.

[JanYpe 17]

Agonizing over criticism is never useful or productive. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering etc etc. Not really worth making a big fuss over.

[Daryn07 0]

Well you do make a very good point. And the code we made ourselves can be imputable as long as it is compatible... note that binary code is basically the heart, nerves, blood, organs and skin of SC4... and when we design our own and input our own binary code (which I have no disagreement w/.) if we want to input code used and created for SC4... compatibility will be a time consuming and BIG BIG BIG issue for any good "prog." or (programmer) weather we join with lin-city or created it from scratch.

Still talking and coming up with good Ideas or what not maybe a great Idea... and if we can afford a lil' scale back... perhaps we should run our Ideas by SC5... Maybe we can create a better 3d world for an advanced version of SC5; perhaps a addition to more networks and growable zones... with in game zone petitions for bigger zones... (kind of like in the real world.) and not having to re-zone so much in the game, it would do it by itself (after we decide to allow it or not) I mean lets not  point fingers at the people who may help us or even promote us (or with prayer drop their product after release and help with ours!!!! (holy Mary mother of god.... Jesus say a safe word!!!!)) EA and Tinted Mill may give us great suggestions... and Maxis may lend his support and his Ideas to us... I am so exeited about

"I think an added feature should allow us to walk the streets of simcity... sort of like you drive it only as the people." -people are talking about this ya' know.

MAYBE EACH WALL SHOULD BE RANDOMLY SELECTED IN SC-5 ACCORDING TO WIDTH AND HIEGTH (FOR COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS  WITH SQURE LOOK AT LEAST) THAT WAY BUILDINGS ARE ALWAYS DIFFERENT FOR THE MOST PART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.)

Sorry I love to write feedback!

[hamsterTK 93]

I think a project like this is only possible if people think very simply and thing about what can be done vs what it could be...

whatever happens, it will be a step back from what we have now. Not that that is a bad thing. And maybe it can be a chance to try something new...

the only reason I hope something happens is that it will keep the simcity community together. In all honesty I think this site and sc4 are on borrowed time...

[HoldYourColour 0]

Hi, have just spent the better part of an hour reading through most of this thread, however please forgive me if I'm reiterating points made:

A website needs to be set up with a Wiki and own independent forum.

The Wiki should provide the basis for the design document, including both short term and long term goals for the project.

Someone, or a group of people need to sit down and actually make a decision with evidence/justification presented to them. One of the biggest problems with open source is that too many people pull the project too many ways, resulting in nothing being done as people squabble over details.

An 'inner circle' is needed to make this function.

Obviously this can't be done in the very immediate future, we need to attain our immediate and most important goal:

How do we approach this?

1. Approach Maxis/EA?

Heavy financial burden, and a million to one shot - why would EA support a rival product?

2. Attempt to reverse engineer SC4?

Haven't OpenTTD run into some trouble about the legality of doing so?

3. Clean slate and start from a scratch (a personal preference)?

Long and tedious and no road to follow to speak.

I'd like to see this project go open source (something else that needs to be clarified), however a core is needed, producers so to speak. Having the whole community to formulate ideas is great, yet that core needs to set out in stone 'what is to be done'.

A forum as said is also needed - separate ideas, design, programming, graphics etc. etc.

Right now, in this thread there are so many views and opinions some may be missed.

I'd preferably like to help out on the economics side of things - by the time this rolls out I will have graduated with an Economics BSc, I also have limited programming skills, which will be completely redundant compared to those who program, but may be helpful.

However, not to barge in and say 'this is what must happen' -

but, the foundations for the planning need to be laid out - without them we will be simply be the People's Front of Judea.

I'm by no means an community veteran, but this is my

[hjanfield 0]

For the advocates of going 3D: You all forget about the computational power required. I don't want to look at blurry textures in my game just because I don't have the latest and greatest video card. The absolute minimum a good looking, full 3D version of SC4 would require would be equivalent to Supreme Commander on it's absolute highest settings. Massive. Relative to most games, SC4 has hundreds to thousands of additional models to render in each shot. It also has exponentially more textures. It has hundreds of times more things to keep track of and compute - and this project plans to add much more. All of this means more memory to store things, more graphics power to display it, more computational power to keep it running. Ever wonder why on a semi-modern system, SC4 can pause itself anywhere from 5 to 30 seconds? The PC can't keep up. Slow gameplay on a system with less than a gig of ram? It's the game swapping data in and out of memory because it has so much to store.

I too would like to see a full 3D game, but as a programmer (and a game programmer, at that) and a realist, I know it can't be done right now without serious compromises. On the other hand, development will take some time.

Another option is having multiple "render paths". Many newer games include many render paths (basically loading a different graphics engine depending on the system). It's more complex than simply loading different sets of models and textures and particles based on the low/medium/high settings. Some games have different render paths for systems that have pixel/vertex shaders versus systems that don't. Others for DirectX9 vs DirectX10 vs OpenGL.

We could go a little further, having one render path for standard 2.5D graphics, and another for full 3D. Initial downloads of the game can offer the choice of 2.5D or 3D, since each will have a different set of base files (basically all included buildings - UI, automata, etc should all be the same). Plugins released later can be released simply in 3D. Users of the 2.5D version will have a short delay after installing a new plugin, while the 3D textures are mapped to the assorted 2.5D views and LODs, and saved. Once someone upgrades, switching to 3D is as simple as downloading a replacement set of the base files (since the 3D versions of the plugins would probably be kept) and the new executable.

A summary now that I'm done thinking and writing on the fly, instead of thinking things through first:

While 2.5D is a better option now, what about 1-2 years from now when this game is ready to play? With proper planning on the LODs, tight code, careful attention paid to the capabilities of low/medium/high settings (with separate settings for terrain, buildings, automata, weather effects, lighting quality, etc), I think 3D would be possible. The core game could be designed around it, with the purist programmers writing a parallel 2.5D render path. Most of the 3D stuff is actually possible. The biggest limitation is displaying models - they'd have to be limited to certain angles, or just look funnily-textured. But if the 2.5D user's own system did the one-time rendering of plugins, it would save a lot of bandwidth (and still allow the 9-views or 17-views people want)

[Matches 0]

I am late to this party (by only 3 days, already 7 pages!),  but this is something I've thought a lot about too since SC4 came out, and figured I'd share my ideas which 'til now just sat in a document on my computer.

My vision of the game skews more toward realism of "feel" as it pertains to the user's experience as the mayor/dictator of a city.

For me, the grid can stay.  But I agree that there must be a higher resolution.  I agree with user(s) above that said the smallest unit really necessary about 4 meters, or one lane of traffic.  Regions is debatable, I have no strong feelings, but I'll go forward assuming one city, the size of which can be expanded limited by only the user's system.

When a city is founded, the city gets two grants from the benevolent "regional government," one for power, one for transportation.  The amount of money given depends on the difficulty level chosen.  The mayor selects his chosen power source and places it, then uses the remainder of his grant to run power lines to various areas of the map.

The transportation grant amount is also varied by difficulty level and allows the new city to build a very basic infrastructure.

The main difference in gameplay is that a city doesn't begin with any money in it's treasury.  Based on various factors, road access, desirability, demand, land value, various offers are made for land located in the city.  Tiles with offers become highlighted.  If a highlighted plot is selected, the user sees a list of all offers for the land, what kind of use (R-C-I, etc) and decides which offer is best for the city.  The land is then sold, the money for the land is put into the city's treasury, and then the proposed development goes up.  Once sold, land is in private hands, and what happens to the building on the land is restricted only by zoning and other ordinances.

The mayor can use zoning to restrict the kind of offers that will be made.  Players should be allowed to zone for CS or CO specifically, or specific types of industry, but the more specific they are in zoning, the fewer offers may come on the land.

This is the basic mechanism change that I feel makes for a potentially much more realistic gameplay experience.  SC4 always seemed so mechanical to me, and it took real effort to make a city look the way you wanted it to.  But it wasn't a "fun" effort, just time consuming and dull.  By giving users the power to determine what types of development are allowed to arise, they can control what happens in differenet neighborhoods, at least at first.  Then, the effects of all the other realities of city building, transit, education, crime, poverty, et al, take effect.

Other notes:  Taxes will work like actual taxes.  Main taxes are based on land value, with single rates for each type of zone (No discrimination over $ level.)  Also income taxes which raise money for more city services at the expense of R$$$ demand, and sales taxes which raise money but reduce CS demand and the overall wealth of the population.

Improved city service models.  Police stations, schools, etc have three variables of expense that affect the effectiveness of the service.  1.) Building.  The building costs a flat rate to maintain.  Devoting less than the minimum will cause the building to deteriorate, service to suffer, land value to decrease, citizen discontent.  2.) Number of officers/teachers.  Stations/schools may support up to a certain number of employees.  More officers increases the expenses of the station, but improves effectiveness.  More teachers reduces class size and increase school effectiveness.   3.) Radius of Coverage.  A police station may be assigned to cover a larger area at no cost.  This means that it is responsible for more crimes and must staff enough officers to handle the load.  Schools may have larger radius with expanded bus service, but more students means more expenses and more teachers needed to teach them all.   Teacher pay is a 4th variable for schools.  Better paid teachers improve the level of service.  Payy our teachers the minimum and the school grade will suffer.  School and police quality should be MAJOR factors in desirability and land value.

[HoldYourColour 0]

With regards to tax, and financial models and what not, it would be interesting to see in the coming years if a 'real' model can be implemented into the game.

i.e. How will cuts in income tax affect the willingness of 'people' to work?

However, I will persist on with my belief that such thoughts will only be beneficial when the infrastructure for the planning of the game is up.