Creationism vs. Evolution

[Mulefisk 15]

Originally posted by: confused04 Western Europe is generally considered affluent and has amongst the lowest church attendance and self-declared religious affiliation. The poorer Eastern Europeans are slightly more religious and so on and the most religious nations are in Africa, the poorest continent. quote>

This is very true. Here in Norway, one of the countries in the world with the highest GNP, only a very small percentage actually attend church. The only people here who really take religion seriously are the imigrants from the middle east.

[Joesocwork 4]

The demographics are similar in the U.S. And it fits with New Testament teaching. Jesus and the apostles teach that the rich, powerful, and more educated are more likely to reject the Gospel.

[Artman94 2]

Originally posted by: Joesocwork The demographics are similar in the U.S. And it fits with New Testament teaching. Jesus and the apostles teach that the rich, powerful, and more educated are more likely to reject the Gospel.quote>

...That's really not surprising...

[Odainsaker 2,134]

...because the poor, oppressed, and deceived masses need an opiate to keep them docile and obediant!

Hehe...alright, alright, I doubt we are to infer that affluence, democracy, and higher education are the corrupting handiworks of the Boogeyman.

More likely, it is just the standard pattern of revolutionary manifestos and teachings which recognize that the lords of the Establishment and the beneficiaries of the Status Quo are likely not to be receptive to any radical program of change. Meanwhile, messages of hope likely play best with those who are mired in the stagnation of poverty, oppression, and illiteracy. Neither trend of popularity makes a particular teaching, let alone one about origins, any more or less true.

But going back to life's purpose without theism or otherwise, I can't help but wonder:

If God or the religion gives our lives purpose, do we come to perceive that purpose ourselves from performing the rituals and teachings of the religion or is it a purpose conceived by God and communicated to us?  The first strongly smacks of us conceiving our own purposes in our heads under the organized guidance of our religion or its creed and pulpits, and that would essentially be no different from the self-centered conceptions of athiests.  The religion itself becomes no different in operation than political parties upholdinging a platform.  If it is a purpose conceived and communicated by God, and he is so much greater and wiser in his perception of the bigger picture than us, then we limited lesser beings cannot currently comprehend the purpose as he does.  Theism just doesn't get us there either, as we become like side actors reciting our two small lines, but who have never been shown nor read the entire script and who never sit with the audience to watch the full play.

Perhaps pupose is being nicely distilled for us by God into its simplest or purest form so we can recognize it, or perhaps the purpose whatever-it-is is so discreet and compact an idea that God is making it easier for us to see its obvious self-contained and self-sustaining truth.  But these suggest that Life's Meaning and Purpose is some greater universal idea, overarching God and even sustainable without Him, and brings us back to the endlessly receeding question of asking where the grand universal Purpose of Life came from and why does it exist?  Getting no closer here.

You know, maybe the first was right, and even theists are seeing the meanings and purposes themselves, from their own perceptions, and perhaps even of their own conception.  Unless anyone wants to explain the true meaning and purpose of life as God knows them to be, (and I doubt anyone knows them as God knows them), then trying to distinguish theists from atheists by suggesting that the atheist's lack of a god leaves them somehow with no valid or correct or true purpose and meaning for life because it is merely their own personal conception is futile.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[saltandsauce 0]

religion doesn't give you a purpose it gives you guidelines and rules, a common moral code if you will

if anyone experienced complete freedom and no boundaries then they would get bored very quickly and rather lonely because not many people live outside the boundaries do they

[coolotter88 2]

you don't need religion to know morals, stop smearing non-religious. plus this topic of discussion is not germane.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Joesocwork 4]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: Joesocwork The demographics are similar in the U.S. And it fits with New Testament teaching. Jesus and the apostles teach that the rich, powerful, and more educated are more likely to reject the Gospel.quote>

Hmmm... well, I am neither rich, nor powerful, so I guess I fit the third.  Thanks for the compliment.  My ego needed that boost!

Okay, I am just giving you a hard time.

Barbarossaquote>

 

That was meant as a jib at me?  Glad I gave you something to feel good about yourself.

But, I do think that education is the key to freeing mankind from the slavery of religion.  It is slavery, even if it is mutually reinforced.quote>

I've discovered that increased education doesn't lead to a decrease in predjudice, arrogance, or other human foibles.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce religion doesn't give you a purpose it gives you guidelines and rules, a common moral code if you will

if anyone experienced complete freedom and no boundaries then they would get bored very quickly and rather lonely because not many people live outside the boundaries do theyquote>

According to the Bible and Christianity, if humans didn't push their boundaries we'd still be living in the Garden of Eden.

I'm also a bit confused because you seem to have contradicted your post on the previous page:

Originally posted by: saltandsauce i go yes religion does exist because if you don't follow a religion you don't have any sort of purpose unless you devise it yourself and it seems to me that those who don't have a purpose end up as dobbers (unemployable  benefit claimants)quote>

"it committed a murder upon Jesus in order to redeem mankind from the sin of eating an apple." -Thomas Paine on Christianityquote>

If the above is an example of the kind of moral code provided by religion then I think I'll keep using my own code.

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

...

Not sure what this has to do with Evolution and Creationism, but I replied, anyway.

...quote>

I think in a roundabout way it has to do with the perceived consequences of both. Some people are very afraid of what they think it might lead to if they accept the idea of evolution as possibly true.

[Joesocwork 4]

Originally posted by: sam

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

...

Not sure what this has to do with Evolution and Creationism, but I replied, anyway.

...quote>

I think in a roundabout way it has to do with the perceived consequences of both. Some people are very afraid of what they think it might lead to if they accept the idea of evolution as possibly true.quote>

 

I think the digression is also reflection on the possibilities of the evolution of the growth of humanity and the human spirit and over which directions those changes take.  

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Hahayoudied 3]

    I do respect religion as long as they don't anger people. However one of the bibles had this paragrah that disturbed me. It said, people that think that the god doesn't exist is a fool and the second sentence is, people who isn't religous does nothing good. There are many famous people and regular people that think the god doesn't exist and famous people and regular people who aren't religous did many good things and discovered and invented things.

    Back to the topic, I do think Creationism happened first, atoms was formed first, but then Evolution happen second when atoms formed into moulcues, then moulcues formed into larger ones, then the molcues formed into bacteria, then many bacterias formed into different animals or plants, then some animals or plants formed into different plants or animals, and it goes on and on and on.    

   

    In th early 1900, there was this one law in one of U.S. states that said teachers aren't allow to teach Evolution, only Creationism, but one of the science teachers did teach Evolution. He got arrested and he had to pay a fine. It gets annoying when religion barges into the laws and education.

[Joesocwork 4]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: Joesocwork

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: Joesocwork The demographics are similar in the U.S. And it fits with New Testament teaching. Jesus and the apostles teach that the rich, powerful, and more educated are more likely to reject the Gospel.quote>

Hmmm... well, I am neither rich, nor powerful, so I guess I fit the third.  Thanks for the compliment.  My ego needed that boost!

Okay, I am just giving you a hard time.

Barbarossaquote>

 

That was meant as a jib at me?  Glad I gave you something to feel good about yourself.

But, I do think that education is the key to freeing mankind from the slavery of religion.  It is slavery, even if it is mutually reinforced.quote>

I've discovered that increased education doesn't lead to a decrease in predjudice, arrogance, or other human foibles.

quote>

LOL, I was playing with your quote, as I stated.  Giving you a hard time.  Not a "jib" at you personally, but trying to point out that that particular biblical reference is rather silly to make.  Take it as you like, though.

As to the educated, and to your post as stated, I think it all falls into a spectrum.  The world is full of educated people who fall into all categories, whether prejudiced or not.  Please don't try to twist the meaning of your post, since prejudice is irrespective of education.  Arrogance is the same.  From the dumbest to the smartest, arrogance is not a factor of education, although it can be reinforced by knowledge and applied to personal biases (look at Hitler and Stalin).

Barbarossaquote>

 

It sounds like we could be in agreement that most human foibles and virtues tend to be universal regardless of demographics. 

Originally posted by: Barbarossa 

The more educated you are, especially in the sciences, the less reason you have to believe in religion and its supernatural explanations.  For example, Europe's educational system is far superior to that of the US.  This cannot be argued, since the US obtains most of its high-level teachers from other countries, or it obtains US citizens who were educated overseas.  This is why religion has taken a backseat in most European countries.  I'm not looking to start a nationalistic argument, so let's not take it there! 

Barbarossaquote>

 

Except that many of us who are educated can rationally come to different conclusions, including about origins.  I believe this thread, as well as many others in the Off-Topic Forums have demonstrated that intelligent people aren't going to see eye to eye on many things and that we can discuss and respect those differences civilly.  Respecting that others have difference while still respecting the others I believe, as much as anything, has been one of the most productive elements of this and the other threads.

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

With regard to these posts in the Evolution v Creationism thread and the comments made by Joesocwork and Sam... I understand what you are saying, but none of this has anything to do with the discussion of the origins of life and the differences between scientific theory and religious doctrine.  The posts are irrelevant and better suited to the House of Worship, sin

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: Joesocwork The demographics are similar in the U.S. And it fits with New Testament teaching. Jesus and the apostles teach that the rich, powerful, and more educated are more likely to reject the Gospel.quote>

Hmmm... well, I am neither rich, nor powerful, so I guess I fit the third.  Thanks for the compliment.  My ego needed that boost!

Okay, I am just giving you a hard time.

But, I do think that education is the key to freeing mankind from the slavery of religion.  It is slavery, even if it is mutually reinforced.

Not sure what this has to do with Evolution and Creationism, but I replied, anyway.

Barbarossaquote>

Slavery, you say? Hmmm....

According to Liberation Theologists, Jesus liberates people from oppression and brings justice to the poor who are oppressed by the rich. Keep in mind they are politically Marxist Socialist, and they are Roman Catholic, the so-called "fascist" religion.

"Acts 2:44-5 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

GASP! The nerve of the apostles! How dare they teach communist propaganda to Sunday school children!

Anyone can be as blind as a bat when it comes to open-mindedness, even a Marxist- Revolutionary-Evolutionist-Philosopher-Scientist can be "enslaved" in their own ignorance, just as some overly-decadent 12th century clergyman would be.

Meh, that's enough for me, I don't like these kind of "belief" arguments...

[BurroDiablo 222]

The fact a man needs nothing but God to survive is simply religious idealism, and if it were to rule its people it wouldn't be Socialist, it would be Theocratic. As Marx said 'Communism begins from the outset with atheism'...

[saltandsauce 0]

if you try to get over your prejudices and phobias then you are trying to become something other than human, they are built into you and this is purely biological it is part of your instincts, the only difference is how much you act on it. people who say they are above prejudice are the sneering, pompous people that religion basically says they will pay for and that is why the lower down people follow religion rather than agreeing with the snobbish behaviour of the upper classes

atheism is a religion in the sense that a group of people force their ideas on everyone else and preaching that religion is false and enslaving and thus they are hypocrites

atheism is the religion without faith

i don't mind you being atheist but please shut up, get over yourself and keep your crap to yourself

[miguelkuk 109]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

atheism is a religion in the sense that a group of people force their ideas on everyone else and preaching that religion is false and enslaving and thus they are hypocrites

atheism is the religion without faith

i don't mind you being atheist but please shut up, get over yourself and keep your crap to yourselfquote>

 

a·the·ism  

–noun

1.	the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

2.	disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-¹ + theos, god; see dh?s- in Indo-European roots.] 

re·li·gion  

–noun 

  

1. 

        a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 

        b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 

2.    The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 

3.    A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 

4.    A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. 

I don't think you can call atheism a religion. It is by definition the lack of religion. Just as you cannot call baldness a hair style.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[miguelkuk 109]

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Those who insist atheism is a religion are completely ignorant of language and the definition of terms.  This isn't completely their fault, since they have been indoctrinated since they were children to deride and scorn a belief that is not their own.  quote>

Errm, I wasn't indoctrinated, my parents were very open about letting me choose my own beliefs, and I wound up choosing Christianity as my faith.

Atheism is a religion? Yeah, and apples are oranges.

[Hahayoudied 3]

I found out that in 1997, 75% of the people in prisons were Christians. I thought Christians was taught to respect other people, I guess I am wrong.

I don't consider Atheism is a religion if Atheism is a belief that religion are useless and doesn't believe in god.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Hahayoudied 3]

My old and new middle school forced me to do the dumb "The Pledge of Allegiance", the reason why I don't do it because the "under the god" disturbs me. Plus "The In God We Trust" on U.S. coins bugs  me even more.  Under the U.S. constiution, the goverment isn't allow to support religion ,and I doubt the U.S. goverment is following the constiution.

[Callbat 8]

Perhaps I will shut up when children are not obligated to say "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, or are not ostracized by other children (or their teacher) if they absent themselves from it.

Perhaps I will shut up when "In God We Trust" is no longer on my money, something I have to look at every day. quote>

It is people like you who make me very upset

I am a music teacher, I do not "ostracize" my students for not saying the pledge

In fact, a great majority of teachers at our school do not do this

we understand, that though our religion, or lack thereof, is impoortant to us, we live in a modern, free society where people are not persecuted for their beleifs. You are very prejudice, I wan't nothing to do with people of your type.

If you do not like the phrase on the coins, please become aware that you live in a country that is 76% Christian and 2% Jewish and Muslim, this is a country where the majority rules and when the day comes that amreica is 78% atheist, please, by all means pass whatever  looney legislation you please. Until then, keep your prejudice, offensive mouth shut sir.

I do not go around telling Christians to shut up.  I ignore themquote>

Well why are you making such a huge deal over the pledge, and the words on your money? can you imagine what the world would be like if it was run by such hippocritical people such as you?

I would just LOVE to see you in England, where I am from. The state has direct connections to religion, in the form of the monarchy, although it's completely symbolic now, im pretty sure you would still be ranting your arse off with the rest of the loons over at Hyde Park corner.

If you do not like the way America is run, please take yourself to Cuba or something, I'm sure the godless communist phsycos there will appease you very much.

[coolotter88 2]

and...in related discussion, Creationism is wrong.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Callbat 8]

Interesting. A great majority? So not all of them, then. Some of them do ostracize students? Think about what you just said.quote>

Yes unfortunately I know one or two people out there..........there are many teachers in this country just like that

So it sounds like 22% of the population does not matter to youquote>

Well, because a smaller percentage of the population does not agree with the larger percent it means the larger percent has to suffer the loss of their ideals? It's not fair, If one student in the classroom feels he is not obligated to say the pledge then everyone has to stop? And then the lawsuits begin, all because of one student.

also forgive my horrid spelling

[edit] Can you please prove "creationism" wrong? I know you've probably got an answer for this one already cooked up though.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[patriots_1228 51]

Originally posted by: Hahayoudied My old and new middle school forced me to do the dumb "The Pledge of Allegiance", the reason why I don't do it because the "under the god" disturbs me. Plus "The In God We Trust" on U.S. coins bugs  me even more.  Under the U.S. constiution, the goverment isn't allow to support religion ,and I doubt the U.S. goverment is following the constiution.quote>

 

wether we claim to be secular or not, the US is built upon christian beleifs. If you don't like this, you can move to china.

I hope George Washington throws a fit in his grave when he hears what people want to do to some longstanding traditions in this country.