Let Us Come Together

[nofunk 1,933]

Simfan34: I have to commend you for opening this thread. I think this is just the kind of discussion we need to continue to make Simtropolis a dynamic and inviting place to visit. Simtropolis is not a "sinking ship" nor are its glory days over. Some great contributors have left, but others are now becoming active. That is the nature of things. Nothing is ever perfect and everything can be improved upon. I believe a frank discussion like seems to be developing here is the first step.

Vandy: I often read your replies, but have never responded to you. I just want to say that I really appreciate what you've written here and can only hope that people take your sage words to heart.

Originally posted by: JasoncwStudies have shown that people don't post in forums that look dead.  Lets say there are two websites with an equal amount of active posting.  The first website has 10 sub-forums, and most of them look dead.  The second website has 3 sub-forums that are all busy looking.  The second website will attract more people to post.  However, if a single sub-forum gets too busy, it gets hard to use and people stop posting there.  So in that case, you would separate that forum in some kind of logical way into more forums.

Also, there are not really any team rooms, since those things create and reinforce politics and divisions, and most of them aren't necessary anyway.  Plus it puts all of the talented people from all of the different forums into the same forum, encouraging interaction and helpfulness.quote>

I agree with this. And I'll be honest: I rarely look at threads in the team rooms. It's not that I am not interested in projects by BLaM or HKABT or BSC, it's just that the BAT - Open Discussion subforum is always so active and keeps me so occupied, that I never even think to look into the other subforums. What this means is that I interact most often with those who update threads in that forum (like Jasoncw, spa, JBSimio, gshmails, etc.) and interact rarely or not at all with those who update threads in the team subforums. I'm not against team threads (the BSP has one, after all) but I do believe that having separate subforums only works to segregate and separate us, and certainly hinders collective brainstorming and the flow of ideas.

And one final word, on "n00bs": every last one of us was a $%&^! here at one time. Back in 2003 I was too. None of us was graced at birth with a deep understanding of forum netiquette, and some people will never grasp it. Just like out in the real world we have to learn to live with people who don't always follow the rules, we have to learn to live with that here. And I feel we also have an obligation to exercise a bit of patience and understanding. People will learn, but it takes time. Lord knows I needed some understanding when I first started posting here.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

All this fuss over a few graphics programmers picking up their balls and going to play in their own yard is a waste of data base space.  Enough has been said on this, when people are free to come and go as they please.  No one is forced to stay here, and membership is open to anyone who agrees to and follows the rules.

If someone gets fed up with the style of the board, they are free to go elsewhere.  It is a shame that some of them left their egos on the table.

[vab423 8]

... Where did Peg's site go...quote>

 

simpegasus.com, the old url will redirect you.  Peg is about 90% back online - the Plex came up today.

I think it's great everyone's working together to get some direction and focus back here.  I think there are a lot of devoted people here and some good talent.  I applaud all of your efforts.  

Go team, rah!  ;-)

[dedgren 830]

Nice thread. Good exchange of ideas and, thus far, no overt flaming (well, almost none, N_O_Body).

Can I make a suggestion? If folks here stopped talking about the BSC, and what it did or didn't do, it would cease to become an issue. Just like that.

Think of all the time that could then be spent on something truly productive and meaningful, like sorting out the real issues ST faces.

Anyway, good luck! I'm off to visit my friends in the CJ forum.

David

[beebs 129]

Where exactly where people talking about what the BSC did or didn't do in this thread?

[Deever 23]

Originally posted by Rymac91: The problem I think is simply, the game is 4 years old and has almost no support from EA...and in some countries...they don't even sell it anymore...and others...they sell as bargain box games(which most people think are failed games)...though if people would quit talking about (pretty much everything) is going to collapse...then we'd be better off... but this is just IMO.quote>

That's a pretty good point, actually. SC4's pretty much a relic now, (a very good relic). Maybe (just maybe), if SC5 finally comes out, that's the time ST will start to shine again.

I particularly agree with Rymac91's definition of the terms 'newbies' and 'noobs.'

But, from what I see, people use the term '$%&^!' as an insult like: "Not like that you stupid $%&^!!" when, in reality, he's/she's actually just a newbie.

Now, newbies probably see this as they go through this thread:

If you're a newbie and you see this in our paragraphs, we apologize (considering you're a newbie, not a $%&^!). We didn't say those things to 'diss' you. We are simply looking for ways to keep this site afloat. Please try to understand. Thanks...

EDIT: 1, 2... 5 people already posted when I was making this...

[Filasimo 1]

i just recently made a comment on the old timers threads regarding noobs and i would like to share a snippet of the comment i made here since i thought it would also be appropriate in this thread as well. you can find the full version at the thread i just mentioned.

"we are all like one giant tree. the more strong roots u have, which is us the current old fogie), the more stronger the tree is, which is ST. roots do die after a long time but weaker roots grow stronger to replace the roots that have died..if for some instance the younger roots (the newbies) do not grow and replace the older roots the tree will die.

in sense ST which is the tree was once a bunch of young roots (us) trying to sprout out of the ground and form a sapling (ST). well this young sapling grew to become an enormous oak tree and the once young roots grew stronger and held up this mighty tree. along the way some of the stronger roots have died and younger roots grew to take its place. as older roots die younger roots grow......in contrast with this story with ST and us....lets keep the younger roots growing and help them out, so when we all move on, they can take our place and keep this tree growing......... "

[Glenni 1,444]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw SimFan34:  I think this thread is a good idea.

.

Glenni:  No offense, but you're one of the last active members that should be complaining about n00bs.  It's like a Sophomore in High School complaining about the Freshmen, in a room mostly filled with college students.

 quote>

Ey what the?What that's that supposed to mean?!

Well anyway, i'll be more positive and help out newcomers here then, (even though some TRULY are some complete morons...)

What we  also need is maybe to get Jason's  BATting school active, it does atleast work better , and, maybe Omnibus could be renamed tutorials/walkthroughs as more people know  what that is rather than omnibus, i mean, i still don't really know what the word means!Heh forgive my ignorance here, but i can't just know like every english word here.

[Firebird 40]

Well, here is my response to this thread....

Right now, i'm one of the most forgiving, happy, and enjoyable members of the simtropolis community to be around. I didn't used to be that way. I used to be on ST's most wanted list...kinda. One of the things i loved to do was spam..and spam i did.

I remember getting this PM from SkiGeek mentioning some kinda ban. I was like...whatever crazy admin. I quieted down a bit after that, but, I was still there. Eventually, i made this pretty awesome region in SimCity4. I decided to upload it to the STEX...not even knowing what STEX meant  at the time, of course, i got it all wrong. I got so many "Smells like spam" comments it made my head spin. I did also, get a small amount of good comments actually rating my work, that had suggestions on how to fix my upload.

I tried. I failed. I quit SimCity4 for what i thought was for good, and turned my back on Simtropolis. I remember sitting down at dinner that night and thinking "Bleep you bleeping Simtropolis, i don't need you!" I wasn't missed at all. That was it, until i stumbled upon a simtropolis link in my bookmarks five months later. I remembered the whole sad tale about what happened on Simtropolis. And since I was older, and wiser, I decided to lurk around a bit on Simtropolis and found out that simtropolis was not a normal forum. I began to sense in the post...something more. Something that I was not accustomed  to seeing at that time. I remember thinking...could it be...love?

I decided after a while it was time for a new identity  I sat down, and thought for a whole two seconds and firebird came to mind. And, just like that, a better, smarter me was born. A whole lot saner than the other one. But, everyonce in a while, i just like to goof off. (Remember the STEX Wars SkiGeek? )

I'm hoping that someone will read this post, and learn something from it. Also sit back, read the old Simtropolis post for yourself, you might even see it.  Like, what i learned from my lurking was that ColdFusion was not what was holding Simtropolis together, it was love. The scarcest, most precious treasure in the world.

[Kevin 101]

Originally posted by: dedgren Nice thread. Good exchange of ideas and, thus far, no overt flaming (well, almost none, N_O_Body).

Can I make a suggestion? If folks here stopped talking about the BSC, and what it did or didn't do, it would cease to become an issue. Just like that.

Think of all the time that could then be spent on something truly productive and meaningful, like sorting out the real issues ST faces.

Anyway, good luck! I'm off to visit my friends in the CJ forum.

Davidquote>

I agree, I like where this thread is going so far... in general it has been a fair, productive discussion.To keep it that way, we need to stop keep giving out the standard replies to these sorts of threads, and stop pointing fingers. Obviously those have no effect on the issue, and if we go back to that, this thread will deteriorate into the same sort of unproductive flame-war that countless threads before it have turned into.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Just a question? Where do i stand in the eyes of the community and what can i do to help? I have never fully understood my own existance here but what i can say is i have made a lot of friends here. And our ability to do so is what makes this place so freaking good.

[Kevin 101]

Tonksie, as far as I'm concerned I think you're awesome and have contributed a ton to this community. You just need to release more of your BATing goodness

[Glenni 1,444]

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso Just a question? Where do i stand in the eyes of the community and what can i do to help? I have never fully understood my own existance here but what i can say is i have made a lot of friends here. And our ability to do so is what makes this place so freaking good.quote>

Hmmm.. maybe you could help out your fellow brits who wanna start batting or something, i don't know.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

ILL Tonkso:  Of course, you make BATs.  You've also helped other BATers out too.  Whenever someone that is from Michigan mentions anything that remotely indicates that they'd like to learn how to BAT, I send them a pm.  You could do the same thing for your region (if you don't already).  If you have time, you can do the same thing for all people who show an interest in BATing too.

Glenni:  Oh nothing!~

In my opinion, being nicer to the newbies and helping people more are good things, but there needs to be some kind of concrete action that is done that will encourage these actions.

For the newbie issue, I see two categories:

• Things we can change that will influence newbies to do less n00bish things.
• Things we can do to encourage regulars to respond better to $%&^! actions.

For the helping issue, I think the two parts are:

• Things we can do to encourage the newbies to participate more. 

• Things we can do to encourage the regulars to be more helpful.

Everyone should post their ideas and how it targets those issues.  If someone thinks there are more issues (there are), post those issues too, and then break down the issues into particular parts that can be targeted, so that we can brainstorm how they should be addressed.

How my forum rearrangement idea targets those 4 parts:

- The forum structure would be less confusing for newbies, since the forums are broken down into the most simple and basic categories (I don't think it's possible to make the forums any more simple than what I posted).  Also, since there are less forums, and since the topics are more broad, there will be less posts made in the wrong forums.  Since the forums would be consolidated, there would simply be less forums to get lost in.  Since the forums would be consolidated, there would be less places to search for things, making it easier for newbies to find things on their own.

- Off the top of my head, I don't see how my forum restructuring would make regulars more friendly to $%&^! actions.

- The huge structure of the current forum is probably intimidating.  A simpler forum would probably encourage people to post.  As well as all of the forums being active looking, which would also encourage people to post.

- The talented members would be dumped into the same place as the newbies, encouraging interaction.  I know for sure that I've interacted less with the HKABAT team since they moved from the open discussion, and that seems to be true in general there.  Also, the CJ section already has this type of a set up, and it seems to have a quick newbie-to-accomplished CJer rate, and I think that happens for the same reasons that I outlined a few posts ago.

General downsides:

-Some forums might end up being too busy with the merger.  They could be split up afterwards, but for the time being the merger could have a negative effect.

-The admins would need to do this.  I honestly don't think the admins take these kinds of threads seriously, but hopefully they do, and if this thread produces good solutions, they will be implemented.

-Some current regulars might not like getting rearranged and might leave afterwards, like with what happened with the ST4.0-5.0, and that didn't really change the site very much.  This change would be more extreme in some ways and less extreme in other ways, so I don't really know how the site at large would react.

[sloppet 3]

sloppet has a feeling that ST will never be the same... Too bad...

[dedgren 830]

Hi again.

Me:  Can I make a suggestion? If folks here stopped talking about the BSC, and what it did or didn't do, it would cease to become an issue. Just like that.

Beebs:  Where exactly where people talking about what the BSC did or didn't do in this thread?quote>

I didn't say that this was being done in this thread- I meant as a general rule.  The letters "BSC," used in sequence and capitalized, are simply removed from the ST alphabet.  That sort of rule.

It might work.  Won't know until you try.

Have a great day!

David

[Simfan34 11]

As PROGENITOR and therefore PROPRIETOR and OWNER of this thread, I will state my opinions for comments left here. I appoint Jasoncw as co-commenter.

But still...

nofunk-Thank you there.  I do agree that we were once all newcomers and that too many of us judge people by post count.  I once did as such.

"Well, sloppet has more post than ALL of us here combined. -------- If you really are, get a better avatar and sig!"

Idiotic, I know.  Many great BATers do not post often. A few's BATs outnumber their posts!

N_O_Body-I know. I also know that it's very, very wierd to tell off a mod, but please, opinion on that issue will provoke the group in question.

vab423-I am glad as well, but how do you contribute?

dedgren-I absoultely agree, but prehaps it would be better if you didn't bring it up.

beebs-nowhwere.

Deever-I couldn't agree more. We hold a great many misconceptions on newcomers to this site.  We should understand the truth, and try to make those with talent useful. It seems like they all are younger!

Filasimo-That is a great allegrory. If we maltreat the new roots, they will die, with the tree.

Glenni-That is a good idea. By the way, omnibus is latin for "for all". I take Latin.

fire_bird-Goes to show that it is never too late.

Cheese89-Let us hope that the people looking for a fight STAY AWAY

ILL Tonkso-You are a BATer. You improve our game exprience a lot. I thank you for your contribution to the community. You could start a BAT school, and due to the fact that you are more or less the only NDEX member left, recruit or merge with BLAM

Cheese89-Exactly. I bet that if NDEX put together a CD with all unrelesed BATs, it would be very popular.

asoncw-So, you don't want me? I also want to repost what you said.

In my opinion, being nicer to the newbies and helping people more are good things, but there needs to be some kind of concrete action that is done that will encourage these actions.

For the newbie issue, I see two categories:

• Things we can change that will influence newbies to do less n00bish things.
• Things we can do to encourage regulars to respond better to $%&^! actions.

For the helping issue, I think the two parts are:

• Things we can do to encourage the newbies to participate more. 

• Things we can do to encourage the regulars to be more helpful.

Everyone should post their ideas and how it targets those issues.  If someone thinks there are more issues (there are), post those issues too, and then break down the issues into particular parts that can be targeted, so that we can brainstorm how they should be addressed.

I also have started a lotting school.

sloppet-Oh, think UP!

Degreden- No, we will use them when a BAT uses their dependencies, which make them much more intrsting.

If you think ST is bad, look at Detroit, 1990. Now, look at this thread, and Detroit 2007. See the simlarity. Now, how do we implement them?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

huh?  I don't know what you mean.  I was just saying that saying that people should be more friendly and helpful won't make the bulk of people more friendly and helpful.  It might inspire some people to do that, but then they might stop after they forget what you (and everyone) said.

Well, Detroit as a whole was better in some ways and worse in other ways in 1990.  Downtown and midtown, and some other neighborhoods are much better than today, but the city is still bleeding population and finances are still a bit of a wreck, although the city has been trying to trim itself down lately, which is a good thing imo.  In relation to Simtropolis, it would be like saying that the custom content and CJ population is doing much stronger, while the rest of the population is getting worse, while there are more technical issues with the site, but while they're also being worked on.  In general, it fits.

But I would compare the current state of Simtropolis to the 50s and 60s instead.  Back then, just like in other cities, people felt that the downtowns were declining, and that they were dirty crimeful places, and that the cities as a whole were declining.  But looking back, that seems silly because those were still strong times for most cities.  Also at that time, people disatisfied with the city left to go to the suburbs.  I think that analogy fits the current arrangement of SC4 websites pretty well.  I think someone could make a map of where the different websites are in relation to each other, based off their age, purpose, and membership.  I think the tree analogy is also good for websites, and as the tree gets bigger new seeds will fall from its branches.

But that's not here or there.

[vab423 8]

Well, simfan34, I don't bat, cj, mod or lot. I've been playing SC4 for about 3 years and my cities are all crap. I struggle with some of the most rudimentary city building skills. I'm not a social butterfly so you won't see me in the forums, although I do try to answer questions when I can. But I don't flame people and I try to stay out of political upheaval unless I am personally affronted by something. Not sure what I have to offer, so my options are to leave or stay and be supportive of everyone's efforts.

[xxbydesign 1]

Originally posted by: Glenni

maybe Omnibus could be renamed tutorials/walkthroughs as more people know  what that is rather than omnibus, i mean, i still don't really know what the word means!Heh forgive my ignorance here, but i can't just know like every english word here.quote>

 

This is sort of off topic, but an Omnibus was actually an early form of urban mass transportation.  It first appeared in New York City, and was essentially an oversized, horse-drawn stagecoach that would carry (mostly rich) passengers along the main city thoroughfares (i.e. broadway).  This allowed the wealthier citizens to move away from the crowded and noiser city centers, essentially the begining of urban sprawl.  Anyone ever see Gangs of New York?  It can be considered an honest depiction of early American city life, and one scene actually involves riding an Omnibus.  Check it out, maybe...

Back on topic, I think the discussion thats been happening here has been really postive.  There were a few posts that made me nervous, but overall people seem to have the same postive sentiments.  I'm glad people agree that newcomers should be encouraged; as a personal testimony, I joined over a year ago, but felt too new/intimidated to post anything.  Slowly I've overcome that, and I'm trying to be more involved.  These things just take time.  And think about it, if i wasn't here because ST became exclusive, you might never have known what an omnibus was...

[Mulefisk 15]

I agree with what people have been saying, that newbies should be tolerated and accepted, rather than just being flamed. It's important to remember that many of these people are probably very young and have little to no experience with using the internet. Therefore, it's understandable that they don't understand all the little invisible rules and social faux-pas we have here on Simtropolis. When their first meeting with Simtropolis is being flamed for asking a simple question, many of them are going to be scared away. As many people have said, it takes time to learn how to behave yourself on the internet. I think the reason that Simtropolis has gone into something of a stagnation lately, is, as has been discussed here, that we are too hostile towards new members.

So my point is, if we give these people some time, and maybe try to tell them in a sensible manner how to act, eventually many of them will become active and helpful contributers to the community. Simply flaming them is not a constructive way to act. If this community is to survive, we need to show newcomers some understanding.

Think about that the next time a newbie pisses you off.

[nealos101 20]

...Or better still, do what one member in particular did for me when I acted against the rules and annoyed everyone... Point them to the rules...

A nice attitude against a bad one helps too; if they cannot accept something you'll only aggrivate them if you fight back.  Give them a smile and be nice about it...

N.

[jacqulina 162]

hello everyone,i would like to say that all members of ST are wonderfull people,i have allways liked to help wherever possible,and i have been helped by many too,and i thank them for that.i have enjoyed being a member here regardless of a couple of incidents,which to me was one of those things,i get a lot of pms asking for help and i enjoy answering them,i think this site is like a family and should continue to be one.i hope you all understand what im trying to say as you all know im not to brillian with words but sometimes i surprise myself lol.

[Camaron 1]

Well this site is definitely better than many I know for welcoming newcomers, however I agree that improvements can be made.

Looking back, if there is one area of the site that is likely to scare new members away it is IMO Live Chat. While most people treat all chat users very nicely, I feel there is quite a large minority that don't. I think many users are scared away by the noticeable prejudice that all new users using chat are out to cause trouble. This prejudice is understandable as some chat regulars get tired of new users asking questions and often breaking the rules (i.e repeatedly posting questions in caps) to get answers. However the main reason that new users act in this way is probably because they feel intimidated and excluded by others, as well as often been looked down on and not treated that well.

I think chat is a great place, though some feel otherwise. If Simtropolis is going to keep new users here it is going to have to get first impressions right, including treating all users with respect in chat, regardless of membership time.

[Shadow Assassin 336]

Hmm. We just need ST to hang in until at least 2008. From there on in, it'll be sweet.

Seriously, it seems that ST has been having a lot of problems over the last few months - performance wise. On a fast connection, sometimes, it can take as much as 2 minutes to load a page. I realise that Dirk is trying his best, but maybe we just need to defrag the server's hard drive once in a while?

As for the whole welcoming of newbies thing, yes, we should try our best to make them comfortable. I find that possibly the biggest issue with Simtrop is that it's so intimidating to newbies, considering it's got over 150,000 users.

[DOXXP29 5]

Unfortunately, this site has become waaaaay too difficult to access. It has been a problem even getting the site to open. When it does open, more often than not I'll get a server error when trying to get to the forums. I'd be glad to come together and help, but if I can't access the site, then there's not much I can do.

[Simfan34 11]

We ought to watch out. Joining here is too easy. Look at what happened to this poor site:

Note: Some innapropeate comments

Should we get a better server? Maybe we should become an .org and tax-deuctable.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Simfan34 We ought to watch out. Joining here is too easy. Look at what happened to this poor site:

Note: Some innapropeate comments

Should we get a better server? Maybe we should become an .org and tax-deuctable.quote>

It's too easy to register here?  I don't get that.

[MarcosMX 222]

Two convos going on here, first *****s, common people of diffrent cultural backgrounds and feelings, they sometimes might act as morons or well behaved ladies or gentlemen. My suggestion to this is, on the registration page, put a big red text warning and another one, telling them where to look first when they have a question.. etc.

Second, mergin forums, IMHO they should be like they are right now. Or they could be moved into a subforum (eg. BAT Open Duscussion ->BSC, Ndex, BLaM, Hong Kong Asia BAT Team)

Take care!!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

.orgs aren't tax deductible.  Anyone can buy and use a .org and they don't need to be registered as an orginizatio to do that, and registering a .org doesn't make a group an orginization either.

Also, those posts at the other site were done by spambots, programs which automatically post advertisements on forums.  When you register at most places you have to copy the text from an image, and that's done because the computers can't do that.  That's also why there isn't much spam here, and when there is it's usually deleted pretty fast.