Let Us Come Together

[Simfan34 11]

Looking at the simple question threads that have become flame wars, the evermore frequent site blockages, the TWO hackings, the people leaving, and many other things, I remember something that I saw on Exit Mundi about the Zoroastrian doomsday Scenario:

"Talk a lot of good deeds, but do the adversary"

More than a few of us have doing just that, myself included. I know that this site is slipping. A group of BATing individuals have chosen to leave this site. This has caused anger among some. I think that there were other ways to solve the problems they had, but this is not the place to state my opinion. I, rather than enjoying the game that we come here to enhance, type and give great pain to my fingers to try to fix "here"

I, for some reason, seem to arrive at sites when they're in decline. When I first arrived at Simphoni, which was then known as SimCity Central, it was right after a great site crash. Before that time, SCC had been "The Largest Online SimCity 4 Community". After that, it was Simtropolis's turn to shine. And shine it did. It was truly ST's golden age, with the Modd Squad, NDEX, the young BSC, the BAT Squad, many independent BATers, great CJ's such as Gran de Cani,Nexis of Genesis, and New Rhodesia , the helpful modds, the ever-kind mods, the funny and welcoming community, and all the discussion and talk. Now, we seem to have been reduced to bickering amongst each other. Threads that would have been great, productive, discussive, learning and fun are now the exact opposite. We make nonsensical comments on post count. Here are some comments made. All names and identifiers have been removed:

"Good riddance! Almost all of ST's major problems have revolved around the handful of XXX members that are the leaders in this action now. If this means that those members will leave for good (what, isn't this the X or X time the XXXX has left?) along with the problems around them, then I don't mind loosing some plugins. The community is more important.”

“Can we stop the bickering FOR ONCE?!?!? THAT is a great deal of what got us where we are, and if it continues, it will completely tear apart and destroy the SC4 community, and I'm sure none of us want this [to] happen.”

This has got to stop. We cannot continue to stab and bicker among each other. Simtropolis has problems that need to be addressed. Here, we, hopefully, will make plans to help restore ST to its former glory and joy. I will submit my proposals ,or in a mood that I hope will return, my $ 0.02.

The Newbies

In my opinion, we are way too harsh on newcomers. So, while we try to bring people in and back, we immediately blame them with our problems. Think about it for a moment. We need new people, and want them, and yet scare them and speak bad of them. We cannot do this if we expect this site to continue. There have been a few Good Samaritans, though. Jasoncw, who I admire and am friendly with, started a BAT school a while ago, and T Wrecks started a Modd school. They were they tools to make a new Master BATter. We need more of this. We have 4 large BAT teams, and many other multi member teams. I most certainly cannot say that they have not given back to the community, but more schools like this should be started. They perhaps can change the Newbies, and our view of them, for the better.  

Community Interaction

 

I notice that many great CJs with an awful lot of potential are sitting commentless, while people apparently think that the typing is better spent bickering.  There is a CJ rating group, that  in my opinion, should be a comment group and give constructive criticism. Same goes for BATs. There should be more interaction. I do not wish to advertise, but this weekend, there is a just-for-fun avatar swap going on. Very few people have signed up.

 

Site Downages

 

I notice that, on my ultra-fast home computer, it takes minutes to load a ST page. Sometimes the page says a error. We have no control over this. Should Dirk pass the torch?

Be your own Moderator

 

If you see a problem, fix it. Anyone can do this. For example, onlyplace4, who would otherwise be at the center of the bickering as the head of BLAM, has used the reasoning he was given, and tried to meditate the flame wars. Unfortunately, a member who was banned, and still was able to rejoin (HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN!) threw useless drivel at his fine work and at the team he lead, and he took it his stride, kindly and politely thanking the member for his input. Unfortunately, the member still threw drivel at him.  We should look at OP4 as an example.

 

Well, I hope I inspired others to exemplify the work here and to contribute to ST. Flat out, we are mainly  the problem. If we can fix ourselves, we can mainly fix the problem. I hope that this thread will become a place were we can all come together the best it has ever been. Better than the Golden Age.

 

NOTE: THIS THREAD IS NOT TO BECOME A FLAME WAR! 

>>

[+Guest]

Sad to say I think ST has hit the point of no return.

    The problem is there is a small group of members with a few staff that have gotten on there soap box thus killing the party.

     But the good news there is a solution but I doubt Dirk would want to let to go of his pride and joy.ST needs a leader who has the time and the stones to clean this place up.

[Simfan34 11]

I do not think that ST has hit the "point of no return". It is never too late to fix a problem. However, rather than sitting down and giving up, contribute, and you will be amazed at what we can do!

[Camaron 1]

Originally posted by: Simfan34 I do not think that ST has hit the "point of no return". It is never too late to fix a problem. However, rather than sitting down and giving up, contribute, and you will be amazed at what we can do!quote>

 

No I don't think that either. Someone once said "when you reach the last page, close the book." Simtropolis is a book written by us all, so we decide where the last page is, and when to close it. Right at this moment problems are been fixed. When I last checked dirk and the admins were still working on making the server more efficient, other people are helping others with their creations, some are making their own. Simtropolis can can solve its problems with time, effort, cooperation, optimism and the ability to move on.

[+Guest]

Simfan your heart is the right place but in case you didn't noticed ST is taking on water and nobody is trying to stop it.

     When ST threw 1 of the Founder Groups overboard that was a clear sign that something stinks in denmark.

    I have plenty of bodybags so when your ready to take out the trash give me a call.

[Simfan34 11]

Camaron, that last page is in the year 3000! And unfortunately we still have problems that need to be adressed.

Blackbeard, what about denmark? No one threw you overboard. You are very much welcome here. 

C'mon, guys! We need ideas!

[+Guest]

Me overboard...

          Sorry if I didn't make self clear it was BSC/CSX that got tossed overboard plus we lost NDEX,Brenda and a few other members that made ST a household name.

     Now for your ideas well the best thing with no offense to dirk is to sell the site to someone who has the time and money for a major overhaul about a month in dry dock should do it.

[Glenni 1,445]

Open a casino with free fish for everyone

[Simfan34 11]

Ahem.

Apparently, this is a serious thread.

BB, you may be right. I haven't seen dirk in ages! Anyone is still welcome.

Maybe we should open the STEX to non-users. It would be the ultamate way of not saying "we are the biggest", but saying " we want SC4 to be fun for everyone" It rhymes!

[+Guest]

Well if you move the Pool Table to the otherside we might be able to squeeze a Salad Bar.

[coultharda 135]

The loss of one BAT groups is only a disaster if we let it be. There are still many other capable BATters out there, and an as-always, friendly community. The same can be said for CJs. Many old good ones have gone, it's inevitable, but others, just as good, or will be just as good (give people time) have taken their places, and will be there for a while until the next wave, it's a refreshing cycle.

Even if newer BATs slow down, there are still hundreds of fantastic pieces of work on the STEX, still available for free download, and any new BATter is free to upload their work, get started on the BATting trail and improve to hopefully, greatness. You only have to look at some of the BATters who release at the moment, and see the work they first released to spot a marked improvement, and this will hopefully continue with them and any other newcomers on the scene. With the game as old as it is, it's inevitable production will slow anyway, but I'm sure until SC5 there will always be some working away to make the game more fun to play and for them the STEX is a place for upload and download to facilitate this.

The community I've always believed ot be the friendliest I know on the internet. I've seen threads wasking badly phrased, somewhat 'noobish' questions, in all-caps, get several polite, helpful answers and not a scent of 'oh go away, newcomer'. This is partly down tho the staff who I feel promote this, but also the idea that we all share the hobby of SC4, we can all identify in it.

As for the speed, I've found it good recently. I tend to load several things up in tabs, then go through them, and change tab if I need to change page on one or something. There was a time of frequent server outages and slower loading, but I feel while these still occur, they are less frequent at the moment.

These few points may seem garbled, and slightly unordered, but it's how I feel. I love ST, it's the best internet community I know, the first and last site I check each day. Individually we cannot do much, but together, when people pull together, great things can be achieved and I think ST can still go from strength to strength.

[Glenni 1,445]

Whatever, and yes, i blame the noobs,  because all they seem to care about is getting stuff, and not really involving them self in the site,  one example is in the chat room, except from the regulars all you  see there now are people randomly enterering and saying  stuff like, "WHUR CAN I GET LOT EDITER!!!! "AND SOMONE PLZ EVERYBODY DO THIS BUILDING * random link to a pic  here...*. And then if we refuse to send like BAT or LE to someone they freak out. Also you can just see for yourself on stex ,  most newcomers posting are just some greedy selfish SOBs who don't  know how freakin much time making things like BATs do!

And then there's the people enterering chat just to be a complete arse totally breaking up the convo doing on and then start swearing and such when they don't get what they want, wether it's a BAT request or a CD-key...

Also what i get so annyoed at is that people use ST chat as the easy way to get help rather than just looking for tutos or searching. and if you don't reply fast they will go like "HELLOOO is ther any1 her!!!!?!?!??!"

[Simfan34 11]

If they ask "WHUR CAN I GET LOT EDITER!!!!" there is no reason to be rude, just tell them. Send them to BAT school so they can do it themselves. Anyways, we need ideas!

[xxbydesign 1]

I may not have many posts and I may not be that involved, but I know personally that I have come to this site on an almost daily basis, looking at what new STEX updates are in and reading the CJs and checking out the Forums. I've found very little drama here, and most posts are helpful and informative and idea generating. Recently, this has enspired me to take a more active role in this community, because I now find myslef at the point where my information and the data ive colleccted through this site can now be of use to people who where like me and just starting out. I may not know the backround to the current issues here at Simtroposlis, but what I do know is that it is no ONEs particular fault. Scapegoating a few people, BATers, or a group will not solve anything, and historically never works either. Patience is a virtue, and the more we get down to thinking about the problem rather than trying to find someone to blame, the more ideas well have, which is what Simfan, and this communtiy, is looking for.

Since it seems that there is considerable talk about Noobs at the moment (and i think calling them noobs is inherently alienating and counterproductive), I think the first thing taht needs to be done is direct them away from where people like Glenni will be bothered. Looking on the homepage, there is no real "where to begin" for those who are just starting out. True, we do have the Omnibus, which is ver helpful, but it cant help anyone if no one can find it or knows what it is. Maybe the Omnibus should be highlighted in some way? (I'm not very good at web-design lingo, so bear with me)

I also think more, Newer omnibus articles will be helpful. The forums are so full of topics and ideas its easy for a visitor to get lost, and the articles in the Omnibus at the moment feel a bit dated in comparison to whats happening in the forums. If the Omnibus got recnt updates about current ideas that seem to be circulating at the moment, it would kind of serve as a gage on where the community stood at the moment, facilitating better communitcation of ideas and so forth.

I dont know how much site modification this would require, but it is an idea. THe great thing about community is that there are so many people here with so many different talents. These may not be the right ideas or along the lines of what this communtiy needs, but conversation needs to start somewhere. Lets keep this community strong and as helpful as its always beed. Without this place, I would never have advanced to the level I feel I am now, and so many game secrets would still be lost to me.

[Constantina 5]

I have been visiting the site quite often, but it is best to concentrate on one thing before moving onto another. There is no need to take the law into your own hands. What we need for this site is at least three moderators online at anytime. if you find anything wrong, just tell them. Simple.

[Simfan34 11]

Constantina, I respect your opinion, but we are hopefully all mature and responisble people. We need ideas to put into action, or propose to the Mods, depending on how it needs to be implemented. I do like your idea, but it would be hard to implement. Prehaps we could use new Mods. You would make a good one, Constantina!

Along the lines of what xxbydesign said, prehaps this would make a good main page, user-friendly:

Now that I think about it, what  we have is good.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Constantina What we need for this site is at least three moderators online at anytime. if you find anything wrong, just tell them. Simple.quote>

As an moderator on any site could tell you, that's not really feasible.  The reason isn't because we're not interested, but unlike a traditional job, this is something we all do in our free time, so the issues of real life take precedence.  Everyone on the staff is aware that the system here works that way.  Also, moderators don't have global powers, so if something is wrong, it doesn't matter how many moderators are online if the right ones aren't.

[Vandy 110]

Hello, All.

I wanted to drop a quick post in this thread and give you the benefit of my own views.

I can assure you that even if you don't see posts, rest assured that new threads and new posts being placed on SimTropolis are being viewed by a variety of Simtropolis Staff members.

I am usually on-line at SimTropolis Monday through Friday from 0700 hours to 1630 hours Eastern time and make it a point to check through the various forums and "sample" the new threads and posts I see.

I would also point out that, as Voar Tok has pointed out, this isn't a paying job for the Staff -- it is done as a "hobby", a joy, a courtesy, a service.  Speaking completely for myself, I can tell you that I very much enjoy working with the membership and Staff at this great SC4 fan website.  It is very gratifying to be able to help someone with a question, post a tutorial, upload a map, comment in a CJ, etc.  I wouldn't trade it for the world.

I respect the opinion of the people that are posting in this thread and would very much like to commend everyone for staying level-headed and having what has turned out to be a good discussion.

Do I believe that ST is on its "last legs"?  Absolutely not!  Do I believe that everything is as it could or should be?  Absolutely not!  Do I believe that we -- the membership and Staff of Simtropolis -- are committed to maintaining, correcting, improving and continuing to shepherd this great site along its allotted course?  Absolutely, I DO!

SimTropolis' beacon is still very much a guiding light in the SC4 community.  Despite all of the recent issues, attacks, losses, bickering, < insert your pet peeve here > that have been going on, SimTropolis has survived, will continue to survive and will continue to be a force in the SC4 community.

New talent is replacing old talent and new ideas are still being birthed and brought to fruition.  I firmly believe that our new members need to be taken under our collective wings and helped in order to make them productive members of SimTropolis.  Treating our new members as "dumb n00bs" is NOT proper netiquette and is not tolerated by the Staff.  I will go as far as to say that any issues which cannot be resolved should be brought to the Staff in order for proper guidance to be given to the person / people involved.

Remember, we are ALL SimTropolis members and we ALL have a duty and responsibility to our membership as well as each other.  Who know when you might be the next person that needs a question answered or help with a problem?

Thanks again, all, for your insightful comments and I certainly will look forward to the development of this thread.

Regards,

Vandy

[Simfan34 11]

Hear, hear! So, what should we implement first! A welcome thread! I'll start right now!

No, no. A lotting school.

[mjig_dudy 11]

simtropolis is by no means dead in any way. the recent leaving of some very old and valuable members should in no way what so ever be celebrated, but i feel that it had begun to pull together the remaining part of the cummunity, which is still in the majority. simtropolis still has many, high quality, Batters, Lotters, and modders.

On the subject of the treatment of new members to simtropolis: The problem is not with most new members, most of these don't go around constantly asking for BATs to be created or codes to be given out, these should be welcomed with the open arms, and given advice, and pointed in helpful directions so they can learn to modd, batt or lott for themselves. However there is a small minority who, however many times the are told, however many people tell them nicely stop, will continue to ask for building request, very rudely in the inappropriate place in the forums, or in CAPS in the chat. Now these are the members who can causes annoyance and fustration for the simtropolis members, and i urge these members to think before they type.

I for one continue to interact in the simtropolis comunity, while also being an active member of other simcity websites (mainly simcities.com and sc4devotion.com), and i will continue to release everything i make (modds mainly) onto the STEX.

I hope that we can together continue to encourge new members to take a positive part in the simtropolis community

[Jasoncw 11,934]

SimFan34:  I think this thread is a good idea.

BlackBeard:  Persistent negativity can only pierce holes.  Boats naturally take on water, but if everyone on the ship freaks out about it, then a real accident could happen and the boat would actually sink.

Coultharda:  I definitely agree with everything you wrote.

Glenni:  No offense, but you're one of the last active members that should be complaining about n00bs.  It's like a Sophomore in High School complaining about the Freshmen, in a room mostly filled with college students.

xxbydesign:  I agree, I think a rearrangement of the forums would be very healthy for the site.  The forums would be clearer for newcomers to understand, and more convenient for regulars to use.

Studies have shown that people don't post in forums that look dead.  Lets say there are two websites with an equal amount of active posting.  The first website has 10 sub-forums, and most of them look dead.  The second website has 3 sub-forums that are all busy looking.  The second website will attract more people to post.  However, if a single sub-forum gets too busy, it gets hard to use and people stop posting there.  So in that case, you would separate that forum in some kind of logical way into more forums.

In my opinion, Simtropolis only needs about half as many sub-forums as it currently does.  It would be like (sorry for the rant):

Sim City 4:

• Sim City 4 (made up of the current "SimCity4 General Discussion" "City-Building Concepts" "Rush Hour Expansion" and "Game Experiments")

• Bugs, Technical Issues, and Mac Problems (made up of the current "Bugs & Technical Issues" and "SimCity 4 Mac Users")

Custom Content:

• BAT (made up of the current "BAT - Open Discussion" and "BAT - Workshop")

• Modding and Lotting (made up of the current "Modding - Open Discussion" "Modding - Research and Development" "Modding - Transit Networks" "Lot Editor and Plug-in Manager"

• Mapping

City Journals

Simtropolis Community (The same as it is now)

Off Topic (The same as it is now, but with the Sims and the Architecture forums too)

That set up breaks the site down into its core activities. 

Also, there are not really any team rooms, since those things create and reinforce politics and divisions, and most of them aren't necessary anyway.  Plus it puts all of the talented people from all of the different forums into the same forum, encouraging interaction and helpfulness.

Once the forums would be rearranged like that, and once they get settled down, it can be judged if it's necessary for any of the forums to be split further.

No threads would be deleted, just moved.

I also think that a forum restructure would give everyone a sense of renewal, and would let us all go on to the future easier.

So that's what I think.

[storms991 0]

no nOOBS!.... They don't contribute enough to out site and only sign up to download BATS! Exclusive clubs are much more efficient and clean, make it mandatory to have to post in the forums.....People shouldn't be selfish, thats the downfall of ST!!!!!!!1111%1111!1.....-_-

... Where did Peg's site go...

[Camaron 1]

Originally posted by: xxbydesign we do have the Omnibus, which is ver helpful, but it cant help anyone if no one can find it or knows what it is. Maybe the Omnibus should be highlighted in some way? (I'm not very good at web-design lingo, so bear with me) quote>

That is a good point, there is already a "search here first" label on the Omnibus, but that is probably not enough for some. Other ideas though, such as directing new members to the Omnibus by a notice when they sign up, would take quite a bit of work by Dirk to implement.

I also think more, Newer omnibus articles will be helpful. The forums are so full of topics and ideas its easy for a visitor to get lost, and the articles in the Omnibus at the moment feel a bit dated in comparison to whats happening in the forums. If the Omnibus got recnt updates about current ideas that seem to be circulating at the moment, it would kind of serve as a gage on where the community stood at the moment, facilitating better communitcation of ideas and so forth.quote>

Newer articles are been added to the Omnibus all the time and it is noticeable that older ones are being updated including my own as required. Though I generally get the impression that the Omnibus is more aimed at articles that need updating rarely, to reduce authors and Help Squad members workloads.

However, I (and other authors too) love to hear feedback on what could be added to the Omnibus and how articles could be improved. If you have any good ideas, this forum is waiting for you. 

[Simfan34 11]

You may have more posts than me, but that looked pretty noobish to me, storms991. I again stand by my idea that registration not be mandatory for downloading. ST is not the only site about SC4. I mean, before I joined, I had bad misconceptions about ST. Doing this may lower the chances of "noobs' joining the site, and bring others to it. I like Jaspn's idea, but a remedy for the radicality of his proposal would be to allow people to create sub-threads in threads. It would organise things considerably. Looking at Jason own work, finding BSP thing is rather hard for me. You would need permission from the thread starter, and they would make it for you, or give you a "permit". Teams could have question and request threads. I know that it's a long standing traditon, but the jumping on newcomers who start request threads should REALLY stop. I doubt that most of them know that there is an offical one. Esp. if they came from the EA site, which is totally lawless. They need a welcome pm from a mod, NOT sent by a "ST_Welcome_Mod" Even if it is not made specially, it would attract their attention. We shouldn't scare them away. More school's like yours, jason, would help.

I am glad that Simtropians are coming and putting foward their ideas here. Let'`s try to put a fresh idea here often, or maybe even sticky it, as one idea has already been implemented. How about ones that we can do ourselves. I am also glad we have chosen to stay on topic, and the few people "looking to fight" are not really doing so, or respect our opinion.

More community interaction and informal teams would be good.

Cosmetically, I wonder if a site rehaul would be good. Simtropolis 8.0,  anyone?

[Jasoncw 11,934]

That type of thread splitting is done on some forums, and it ends up getting confusing.  Plus, it would be a big technical undertaking to incorporate that into Simtropolis.

For the record, right now, all of my BSP stuff is posted in the BSP thread.  All of my non-BSP stuff is posted in my thread.  Nofunk posts all of his work (BSP and non-BSP) in his own thread, and updates the BSP thread when there is something big to post about.

[storms991 0]

Originally posted by: Simfan34 You may have more posts than me, but that looked pretty noobish to me, storms991. I again stand by my idea that registration not be mandatory for downloading. ST is not the only site about SC4. I mean, before I joined, I had bad misconceptions about ST. Doing this may lower the chances of "noobs' joining the site, and bring others to it. I like Jaspn's idea, but a remedy for the radicality of his proposal would be to allow people to create sub-threads in threads. It would organise things considerably. Looking at Jason own work, finding BSP thing is rather hard for me. You would need permission from the thread starter, and they would make it for you, or give you a "permit". Teams could have question and request threads. I know that it's a long standing traditon, but the jumping on newcomers who start request threads should REALLY stop. I doubt that most of them know that there is an offical one. Esp. if they came from the EA site, which is totally lawless. They need a welcome pm from a mod, NOT sent by a "ST_Welcome_Mod" Even if it is not made specially, it would attract their attention. We shouldn't scare them away. More school's like yours, jason, would help.

I am glad that Simtropians are coming and putting foward their ideas here. Let'`s try to put a fresh idea here often, or maybe even sticky it, as one idea has already been implemented. How about ones that we can do ourselves. I am also glad we have chosen to stay on topic, and the few people "looking to fight" are not really doing so, or respect our opinion.

More community interaction and informal teams would be good.

Cosmetically, I wonder if a site rehaul would be good. Simtropolis 8.0,  anyone?

quote>

You agree with me and disagree with me at the same time, yes this is not the only Simcity4 site, but having people sign up just to download things from the exchange is unproductive and wasteful.

Think of it this way,

          Its similar to an unemployed person, they just take and take from the government(Simtropolis) and don't give anything back, which is until they find a job(posting on forums, join a BAT team etc..).

This is my vision.

And I do take offence for calling me a $%&^!, I am far from it... I just like to express my opinions in a straightforward manner.

[Jasoncw 11,934]

Originally posted by: storms991 no nOOBS!.... They don't contribute enough to out site and only sign up to download BATS! Exclusive clubs are much more efficient and clean, make it mandatory to have to post in the forums.....People shouldn't be selfish, thats the downfall of ST!!!!!!!1111%1111!1.....-_-

... Where did Peg's site go...quote>

oh, I thought you were being sarcastic.  I personally BAT without thinking that any one owes me anything.  I don't have a problem with people who just sign up to download BATs.

Exclusive clubs need unexclusive places to feed off of.  If that unexclusive place (Simtropolis) is gone/made exclusive, then there won't be any new members to replace the older ones as they leave.  And exclusive clubs promote the types of politics and fighting that is the real threat.  I don't really see the benefit of being an exclusive club either, you'd just be limiting what people you can interact with.

Most BAT teams don't just let people join.  They recruit people that already have a clue about what they're doing and they train them from there, they don't start from scratch with people.  It's like how corporations gobble up smaller companies.

Making it mandatory to post in the forums will bog the forums down with spam, and people who just don't want to be here.

[Frankie_Grove 33]

Couple of things; first, ST is not dead...secondly...the STEX has been a tad bit slow...but i promise you good stuff is on the way ..and please do not hate on n00bs...you were a $%&^! once too you know?

[Jasoncw 11,934]

Yeah, the STEX has been really slow the last few days.  Earlier I clicked on the upload link, thinking it might just be broken, but it wasn't.  Then not too long after someone uploaded something.

I should have something new to upload in a week or two.

[Rymac91 15]

I'd assume out of the member base...about 68% never says anything...only comes here for 1 thing or a few things and leaves...

I'd also assume around 21% will be regulars for a few weeks to a month...download some stuff and then leave(and may possibly come back...

Of the remaining amount (11%)...10.87% will become regulars, will do stuff, have the highest chance at becoming a skilled member and will usually return if they leave...

0.12 % will become a $%&^! which will be disliked for rude comments...breaking rules and insulting members...and

0.01% will become flamers, who will bypass the ban system to attack and flame members and to deface ST in any way as revenge to...something.

but this is just what I think..since there aren't actully that many n00bs on the site...just a bunch that stick out like sore thumbs...

now...as for ST being destoryed by[place B.A.T. group name here] I find this untrue. They are usally working to add content to the game...they also help members to become custom content creators...if they stay and help, then the community will live on...

The n00bs aren't the main problem here...they are simply...here. all sites have n00bs...and most don't have any problems with it...they are simply annoying...but suprisingly...some n00bs become B.A.Ters...which is why you still have to help them(unless they start name calling or attacking you for who you are....then you can report them)

And...I'd like to point out...n00bs and newbies aren't the same thing. Newbies is the broader category to define a new member just learning the ropes...a $%&^!...is a rude new member who is rude to the helpful member for such and such reason.

Almost all new members start out as Newbies...and then become ethier regulars, members or n00bs...

I just thought I'd point out that there is a difference and they aren't the main problem..

The problem I think is simply, the game is 4 years old and has almost no support from EA...and in some countries...they don't even sell it anymore...and others...they sell as bargain box games(which most people think are failed games)...though if people would quit talking about (pretty much everything) is going to collapse...then we'd be better off... but this is just IMO.

I forgot to say what I was originaly going to say...

As far as I can tell...the community is simply shifting to a differnt direction in SC4...it's shifting from custom content to creating cities and maps...which could explain why alot less people are willing to learn how to B.A.T.

I do feel one way to bring people together is community events(one reason why I'm bringing back the avatar events). The ST sports are actully a fairly good way to bring people together...

I feel we simply have to have more that people can do together...but this is also my own opinion on the matter.