Petition To The Bosses - Seperate Map STEX

[moganite 4]

as new mapper i see what some people are posting on there as garbage. There are some people that are posting a map every day or every couple hours how can they do that and maintain qualit. My Reunion island map took something like 40 hours to create and it still has a few innacuracies that i am fixing. I think there is alot of new mappers that are just starting out that need to be encouraged how ever they don't seem to be improving the quality of thier maps and are just knocking them together without a great deal ot thought.. While i would like to encourage new mappers at the same time those who flood the STEX with maps will start getting lower and lower ratings as i put links in their threads and map comments to dem data. I try to encourage new mappers like myself but if i see a series of maps that looks like the mapper is not improving trying new ideas then i will rate those maps lower as i expect people to improve.

However since all of my maps have DEM data from the outset i don't think there is a great deal room for improvement but there is evidence there. Also some of my maps are still generating downloads not many but a few. Quality maps will keep getting downloads while the awful ones will drop of the ends of the earth. the other thing is i am not terribly concerned with having a high score etc just making good maps.

i think we need a limit on the rate at which new maps can be uploaded that might slow down some of the flooding say prevent people from uploading more than 1 map every day or couple of days.

The other thing we need to fix is the phenomena of Zobie members who don't post on the fora and  don't unpolad anything to the stex  and don't contribute anything much.

[Dirktator 2,327]

Good debate all around, guys.  

I will see what can be done to address this issue... so stand by...

[JustinHayward 10]

Dirk - yer a star - and I for one want to STATE VEHEMENTLY

This topic is in NO WAY intended to be a criticism of what you have already done for ALL OF US - in fact it upsets myself and many others that certain people are turning the STEX into a 3rd graders playground with thier GARBAGE - anything you can do to prevent it will be GREATLY appreciated by one and all

[moganite 4]

The Garbage flood hurts all of us

[+Guest]

Yipee Dirk is on the Case.All will be right as rain thanx Dirk for addressing this issue.

[dev 47]

Guys...I think we can be a little more considerate and not call people's work "garbage". Everyone has to start somewhere.

[spa 970]

Dev: I just wanted to reply to your earlier post. I don't think I was around for 3.0 (I don't remember a map exchange) but a map exchange that doesn't get much attention isn't such a bad thing really. Maps don't get much attention now because of the nature of their use. They're just intermixed right now with everything so the lack of attention is hidden. As jglei701 pointed out, each user only needs one map to play whereas BATs are used throughout a region. Speaking for myself, I'm coming into the home streatch on my current region (should be done by Christmas). This was three years on one map. If I were downloading maps, I would have had one in three years. That said, if maps were separate, if I were interested in downloading one for a new city I could still go find one. A separate map exchange doesn't deny the use it just sorts out the passerbys.

[Praetorian Cohort 0]

While I don't agree with your wording of the problem, I do agree that there are quite a few new maps.  I think it would be a lot nicer if the Mappers had their own, separate exchange to post maps.

[brancra 1,190]

I agree with Dev. To call the work "garbage" is negative publicity for the  Simtropolis, and deters new members.

However, as I write this, I would like to point out that on the front page of the STEX, 7 of the 12 files are maps. Ostensibly, this is a considerable increase from the average of three or four maps per page that have usually occurred on the STEX. One might think "Hey! Simtropolis is building up interest!"

However, I disagree. As others have stated, a map can be churned out relatively quick, but  those works demonstrate the effort (or lack of) that were put into making it. It is dissapointing to see several commendable maps, and other excellent works on the exchange, intermixed with these disreputable products. Now, if someone were to release a BAT with lackluster effort, they'd be chastised, new member or otherwise. I think that the maps are the bete noire of the STEX- people are taking advantage and ruining a precise art. 

Now, how does this tie into the topic? Well, we have a massive influx of maps, from both seasoned and new members, and of greatly varying levels of quality. That leaves us with creating solely a map exchange (which is done by the push of a button, but let's be honest, most users are not willing to sift the uploads, afraid they'd miss a gem of a work because of this seperation), or establishing a quality control or limit, which would be a disaster for PR (We all agree the STEX isn't exactly an exspensive, selective art house). However, somehow, we need to consider the issue at least and draw up some plan, for if the number of maps continue to increase in number and proportion pf uploads, it will have a serious impact on the Simtropolis experience, specifically concerning the STEX, the big draw to the site.

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

Originally posted by: Keiran Halcyon

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

Storing everyone on the DB though could get to be a resource hog though.quote>

Not really. We'd be talking about an extra byte per member, if whoever coded it (presumably Dirk) was clever about it. Signatures take up much more space.quote>

You mean 1 KB don't you.  About the only thing that will fit in a byte is one letter.quote>

No, I meant 1 byte. 1 byte is enough to act as a mask for 8 categories. If 8 isn't enough... use 2 bytes to mask up to 16 categories.

I don't think restricting content based on quality is justified. Simtropolis is an open community, and putting on such a quality restriction would violate that spirit. I think a better restriction would be a time restriction like one upload per day. Exceptions could then be made in certain cases, e.g., for BAT team leaders.

Of course, I still prefer the filter option I proposed earlier.

[JustinHayward 10]

Keiran is right Voar - a byte consists of 8 bits - either a 1 or a 0 in binary - could indeed be used as a mask for 8 categories - 1 being on, 0 being off, as it were

[pasternakski 0]

Originally posted by: JustinHayward Pasternaksi  or whatever yer name is

Well done - you win the gold clock for being the first to say it .................... DUH !!!!quote>

 

I made it difficult to spell intentionally, my friend, because that way you can tell immediately from a response who means it and who doesn't ... well, there are other reasons, too, but, you know.

Look - maps are nothing.  Yes, you can spend a whole lot of time on them, but just because you're messing around with her doesn't mean you need to take her home to meet Mom.

You open the program, set the size, throw in a picture if you want, render it, and go play it.  So what?  Who needs 'em besides you?

My "fun" comes from terrain-blank regions I can terraform city-by-city.  I get to sculpt and shape the place yard by yard into what I want and into what I want to have for a challenge.  It takes time, but it's the best way to play, for me.  If you're gonna be god, you might as well be god...

[JustinHayward 10]

well done my "freind" .

Your flippant attitude just insulted every map maker good or bad

WHO HAS CONTRIBUTED THIER SKILLS TALENTS TIME AND EFFORT TO THIS COMMUNITY

What exactly have YOU contributed to this community ????

Answer ................         A       BIG        FAT         ZERO

You are what is commonly referred to I believe as a LEECH - take all give nothing

[dev 47]

First of all, everyone take one of these:

Take only half if you have heart problems or take frequent naps.

Now, down to the point...I am sick and tired of seeing Map makers insulted by rude arrogant comments.  I actually have never used any maps other than my own, but, I know that some map makers put a great deal of time in to their work, and you people who are using those who don't as an excuse to insult the whole group needs to open their eyes and calm down.

Some people are quite talented at mapping. Let's not punish them because some people are just trying to get attention via map making. We need to simply stop and maps of logos for one thing...those are useless...And then, say that your map needs to be of good quality...But no deleted unless it's obvious that it's crap and that they know it's crap.

Stop insulting map makers though, I am sick of that.

[JustinHayward 10]

Thankyou dev ...................

[moganite 4]

One point is that alot of people don't want to spend hours painting each tile its bad enough with the trees i did that once and gave up because it took even longer and inthe end my cities had a samey look about them. give new mappers a chance and hope they improve and encourage any improvement. i have only given out 1 one and that was becasue it had no work put into it the rest had scores varying from3 to 10 on based on the ammount of work done the newness of the mapper ie how many maps they have done and if they are having trouble i give them a bit of informationt aboutt what to do to improve and i try to rate each map fairly based on the screenshot some of those dont have a rendered version or an LD screenshot that doesn't tell me how the map will look in game. and it might have a logo which dominates the shot as if the person providing the map is more important than the map. i will accept it from newbies but not anyone who has been here for more than a couple of months. How many maps out there download for a while then fade into obscurity ? i would say most of them and the same is true for BATS. However the good ones will still get down load long after they were uploaded.

I prefer my maps to stand on quality not because i made them.

[Meg 368]

Let's everyone calm down.  Dirk is looking into it.

There is no reason to be insulting each other here.

[AIX 270]

I agree with Dev.

I've only posted a couple maps and posted in the fora on a few occasions, but I have been mostly a lurker. That is partly because while most members here are nice and friendly, there are still a few prominent members who have developed some pretty big egos. It is possible to give people constructive criticism or explain to them [if they are flooding the STEX with bad maps] without being rude or arrogant. I have created dozens of my own maps for my own personal use (none of which I claim to be "perfect" or as good as a some here), but I havn't uploaded many of them at all simply because of some of the rudeness and egotism on ST.

I also feel that people can be a little too nit-picky here and this is a good example. What needs to be done is just simply improve the existing STEX search options and filters. Make them easier and more intuitive to use. A seperate MEX would make the site more bloaty.

[Lord Kronos 0]

Edit: Woops, should have checked to see if there was another page first!

    Voar Tok, That's why Keiran Halcyon said clever coding. You work out how many combinations     of filters you have, and assign each one a set pattern of a byte (I can't remember how many 1s     and 0s are in a byte? 8 isn't it?) there are only 7 categories on the stex, that can easily store         the configuration of what you want to see and what you don't.

I myself am all for the option of being able to filter OUT certain categories. I don't want to, when browsing the STEX, see texture files or model files.

So, whilst I don't want a separte MEX, we could use the ability of an exclude filter, as well as an include filter.

LK

[mrbisonm 1,622]

Please people let me remind you that this debate for a Mapstex has been sofar done with tact and peaceful discussions, so please keep it that way. If there's garbage on the STEX, think of it as garbage, but don't mention it and don't rub it in.

Reminding you all to keep this interesting debate within the limits of respect. Thank You .

mrbisonm

[spa 970]

There is a difference in debating whether or not work is "garbage" and whether or not the number of maps are flooding the STEX. As far as I know, this thread is suppose to be out the later.

[Vandy 110]

I don't believe it is every pointless for a moderator/administrator to make a comment concerning a thread so as to keep it on topic and non-beliigerant.

Look - maps are nothing.  Yes, you can spend a whole lot of time on them, but just because you're messing around with her doesn't mean you need to take her home to meet Mom.

You open the program, set the size, throw in a picture if you want, render it, and go play it.  So what?  Who needs 'em besides you?

My "fun" comes from terrain-blank regions I can terraform city-by-city.  I get to sculpt and shape the place yard by yard into what I want and into what I want to have for a challenge.  It takes time, but it's the best way to play, for me.  If you're gonna be god, you might as well be god... quote>

Some comments for you, pasternakski.  Certainly, some maps appear to be very simplistic and quickly made.  Actually, that is what a tool like the Landscape Designer was made to do -- make it easy to create a map with a few clicks of the mouse.

I do take exception, however, to your statement that "maps are nothing".  I've looked at a number of maps made by Mallow the Cloud, Blade2k5, etc. and their maps are certainly much more than nothing -- certainly weren't just "thrown" together.  It is quite obvious that much time and talent went into making them.

I completely agree with you that hand-terraforming is undoubtedly one of the most satisfying functions one can do with SC4.  Again, this is evident in many people's work (Jeronij, Mr. Cinatit, MrBison, etc.) and can be just as arduous and time-consuming as creating a map to be imported.  Nonetheless, hand-terraforming a map does not take away from creating a map external from SC4.

Quite frankly, I personally find that when I use a map created externally and import it into SC4, I will inevitably do some terraforming tweaking on it anyway.  Again, for me, this is a funamental part of developing a region.

---

Okay.  I would like to comment that this really has been a very good debate over a very interesting and thought-provoking subject.  Other than a few negative and derogatory posts, it has been quite level-headed in its posts and the exchange of ideas and information have been quite good.

My congratulations to all posters for your consistentency in your posting and look forward to a continued exchange and debate on this issue.

Regards,

Vandy

[callagrafx 3]

As I'm on a Mac (waits for the jeers to die down.........) I cannot BAT , but I CAN create useful playable regions, being a dab hand with Photoshop et al. However, Like Justin and a good many others, I spend a long time on my maps, making sure that a) they render in the game with no problems and b) they can be played. At present, I only have 2 files on the STEX because the latest one is taking time to properly put together.

pasternakski: To deny us the ability to contribute to this site goes against it's fundamental principle. A separate section for Maps is not only sensible, but logical too.

What's the old saying... someone's garbage is another man's treasure? I don't want to take away from the time that people are spending on maps. I can recognize that people ARE spending time on them, so they have value of some sort. quote>

jglei701: Unless the region is playable, it has no value in this community.

P.S. Forgot to check for another page...this is becoming a very interesting difference of opinion, which is ALWAYS good.

Note to moderators: not every debate is a clean fight...some have to resort to mud-slinging, don't punish them, pity them (gives us all a laugh).

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Just wanted to pop into this thread to say I second the idea to filter maps out.

With BATs and lots, a certain kind of self-censorship has come to power that will prevent people from uploading too much stuff that's below standards. Once in a while somebody does, gets some severe criticism, and either improves or stops uploading. With maps, this is not the case. And maps can be made quickly (not talking about the top-notch quality maps made by the likes of MallowTheCloud etc here!), which is what makes uploading maps very attractive for n00bs and flooding the STEX with maps rather possible.

[moganite 4]

it might be a good idea but then we would need a spotlight on maps also and possibly highlight the best rated but thats annother issue

[vester_DK 477]

Well I vote Yes. I will like to see a function, so you can see everything but maps.

[mayormommy 8]

Just wanted to pop in and voice my appreciation for all the ST mapmakers and the wide variety of maps available. Both of my CJs have been based on downloaded maps, which were posted for many months before I found them. Both maps were obscure and unrated, one with 150 downloads and the other with only 50. The few comments given on each of these maps were that they were unplayable. So beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you never know what will inspire someone. How the maps are posted makes little difference to me, but I hope that interesting maps are still highlighted somewhere where they might spark the imgaination of passersby, who perhaps didn't even realize they needed a new map, but suddenly have the urge to build a fantastic new city.

 

[buddybud 63]

i have to concur with mayormommy....beauty is in the eye of the beholder....simtropolis is by nature a community with all invited to partake...there is wide variety of people here...young old experienced and unexperienced...i personally support a method for filtering out content because there are some things i never use....maps for me is one..i do my own...however in no way does this mean i think maps are pointless...there is plenty of content ill never use and personally wonder why it was posted BUT at the same time if we limit content than we start on a path towards elitism....constructive critisism is the way to go..give people pointers and help them or kindly ignore it. The people who create this content good or bad obviously feel its worth uploading and if its not lets help them improve it...not crap on them...just my thoughts

[JustinHayward 10]

Thankyou for that mayormummy

I am extremely proud and honoured to say that my "New Orleans" map is being used by lospantalones to make a most wonderful tribute CJ to the people of Louisiana and survivors of hurricane Katrina

Since the map making issue has been brought to the front, I have been inundated with map requests - so you can knock maps all you like, but there are DOZENS of members new and old that want quality maps.

[sim1234 62]

I would also like to thank all the map makers for the hard work they put in to make Sim City 4 better. Without maps, we wouldn't have anything to build the cities on which therefore makes the statement "Maps are nothing" false and also at the top of the page Moganite mentioned that he spent 40 hours making 1 map, that is almost 2 days and that is certainly not nothing. I voted "Yes" for the map filter.