Petition To The Bosses - Seperate Map STEX

[SamFlash 0]

I'm one of those that is wondering what is so bad about having a MEX?  If I need or want a map then I would like to go where there are only maps and filter them as to the criteria I was looking for.  And let's face it, how many different maps have any of you downloaded compared to the bats and lots you've downloaded from the STEX.  Let's see, I've downloaded twelve maps in almost two years compared to about a thousand lots and bats.  

But because I haven't downloaded many maps that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the time and hard work that goes into a really good map.  We've been blessed with some truly fine map makers over the last couple of years and JustinHayward, Blade2k5, River Cocytus and a few others are the current ones keeping that fine traditon alive.  I think that there should be a map showcase thread for them to be able to show off their efforts without them getting lost in the STEX.  It doesn't take much time to end up on page 3 or 4 and those members with dial-up will probably never see them. 

To those of you working hard to make the very best maps you can, keep up the good work and remember that "cream always rises", regardless of where your maps end up. 

[Pegasus 2,837]

(cont)...

This topic is quit long and I did not have the time to read beyond the first page or so... so I apoligize if this proposed solution has already been suggested.

I would think that the simpliest solution, at least from a programming point of view, would be to simply change the query the default screen uses to exclude maps.  Very simple. Issue resolved.

Those who are looking for maps are a definate minority... so this give the majority what they want.

Anyone interested in maps, can then easily click the 'Maps Only' filter... and see a pristen list of maps not cluttered by the occasional BAT, Lot or Mod.

* This is a counter to the suggestion that  nothing be changed and that the majority of STEX visitors learn to use the filter buttons. As the majority of STEX users would benefit from the suggestion above, it seems this would be the fairest way to go.

For Dirk & the staff, it should be the easiest modification to do. There's no need to create a new STEX/MEX or change anything at all other than that one query.

For the map users, they still have a fully functional STEX... with all the benefits and exposure that comes with it... to those interested in maps. 

[mrbisonm 1,622]

I think Dirk will have a serious look on how the STEX can be altered to accept both the Maps and BATs (lots,props,textures etc incl.) separately to accomodate everyone's taste. So there's no reason to get tooooo exited over this matter please. Thanks,

mrbisonm

[moganite 4]

Those are very insightful posts pegasus. Something else I have considired is the number of downloads/ views, what sort of impact does it have on people? Also can the items per page be changed? is it reasonable to do so?

right now the list is dominated by lots and bats thats how it should be. I will reitterate a list of recent maps separte from the lots and BATS would work if its exposure is fair ie lis of recent maps a maps spotlight is truly random. quite often i see a certin mapper whos maps were "average" and has the stex selections often while more worthwhile creations are often bypassed i know it is random but it benifits people who uploud alot of maps not high quality maps. If we split the spotlight so more lots and BATs were exposed that would help expose more of thier creations.

There are plenty of worthy creations that would get more dls and exposure if this was the case. This would Apply to some of the older files that haven't been downloaded recently but they are high quality.

[tchaos713 5]

Unfortunately, mrbisonm, we (being human) love to argue so I have no doubt that this thread will go on for another couple pages.

That being said, I'm chipping in another $0.02:

I have to agree with Pegasus. This seems to be a fine idea. I still maintain that any aspiring BATter, Lot maker or Map maker should open up their own thread to showcase their work (or their own site, if they're so inclinde). It really is valuable to the feedback and makes the final product much better.

[bixel 1,228]

ehhh...you deleted my joke...it was making light of the situation and acting as a playful reminder to be reasonable. Oh well I guess you didn't get it.

[mrbisonm 1,622]

bixel, it was kinda....well...u kno....kinda strange if you asked me and not really concerning to this thread, kinda nice for trying though. Thanks, maybe next time.

tchaos713, that is ok if this thread continues for many pages, I even hope so, since arguing is healthy and instructive as long.........as we keep it under the redline, meaning that we all respect each other's opinions, not flame anyone and keep it neutral and a quiet place to visit. Otherwise I will simply close this thread!

mrbisonm

[dev 47]

PEG: Do you remember when I got mad at you for upload literally tons of water mods in a row and flooding away some very hard worked on creations?

What's the difference here?

[jglei701 8]

Ironic, I just read through that discourse on Peg's site yesterday, Dev.

The difference, IMO is this: The water stopped flowing. There was an influx of water... but it didn't continue, day after day, week after week, like the maps have.

As I said earlier, I don't have a problem with custom maps. In fact, Mayormommy's CJ's (using tough maps) have been some of my favorites. But, like Peg has said, the flood of maps has actually discouraged BATters.

I believe Peg said it best: Those who want to have access to the maps are fewer than the large mass of those who otherwise peruse the STEX. The easiest/best/etc solution appears to be a filter out option.

I have to say... the option to remove the signatures has made my viewing of ST much quicker and enjoyable. I can only project, but I believe my use of the STEX would be improved as well with a "remove" option available.

[Pegasus 2,837]

Originally posted by: dev PEG: Do you remember when I got mad at you for upload literally tons of water mods in a row and flooding away some very hard worked on creations?

What's the difference here?quote>

 

By "tons", of course, you mean 5 (that's all I ever made). By "creations", I suppose, you mean the one. And those 5 mods were uploaded over a period of 5 hours.

The difference?  Similar in effect... but much different in impact. The constant flooding of uploaded maps that have little appeal to a larger majority of STEX users... impacts most STEX users. The one time I uploaded 5 mods over a 5 hour period... only impacted you and the guy who's stuff you uploaded.

"Good of the many outweighing the wants of the few... or the one..." kinda thing.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Keiran Halcyon

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

Originally posted by: Keiran Halcyon

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

Storing everyone on the DB though could get to be a resource hog though.quote>

Not really. We'd be talking about an extra byte per member, if whoever coded it (presumably Dirk) was clever about it. Signatures take up much more space.quote>

You mean 1 KB don't you.  About the only thing that will fit in a byte is one letter.quote>

No, I meant 1 byte. 1 byte is enough to act as a mask for 8 categories. If 8 isn't enough... use 2 bytes to mask up to 16 categories.quote>

Phew!  My bad.

You said byte, and I thought of one bit.  Then, I said KB when I meant to say byte.

So, yeah, I see where you are coming from and whole-heartedly agree with you.

My inner geek is screaming at me right now for that mistake - cause you can't fit a lettter in a single bit either.  That was one heck of a brain burp.

Also, I would like to take the time to say that I think that a lot of the mappers do good work.  Without maps, we wouldn't have anything to play the game on, so they are definitely a contribution to the game.

[moganite 4]

i wonder when it actually started and i wonder if an experimental map I uploaded started it off. the more i hear the m ore i thin we need a separate MEX.

I have noticed the filter buttons are in an out of the way position and you have to look for them if they were in an easier to use position near the top of the page how would it change things?

[newyorkrunaway1 110]

Originally posted by: andymcnab666

Please comment on this thread if you feel there should be a separate STEX devoted to maps, or even if you think otherwise, or have anything else to add.

Lets be frank about this. Rubbish, poor quality maps are beginning to flood the STEX. There is far greater demand and need for BATs, than there is for maps. People want hundreds of BATs and don’t need hundreds of maps. So when I click on the link for the STEX, I want to see new BATs for my cities, Instead I end up finding a ton of maps that I don’t need. As a result all the BATs are pushed off the front page, where interest dies.

Don’t get me wrong, there are a number of good quality maps, however there are an increasing number of poor quality maps. I understand that everybody needs maps, but only a small handful of them, yet everyone wants lots of BATs. Look at the demand in terms of downloads; a few maps get to three figures, whereas there are hundreds of BATs with thousands of downloads.

If there were a separate map STEX, it would tidy up the original STEX and would enable ST members to find uploads a lot easier without having to sift through tons and tons of maps, and would also work visa versa.

The number of poor maps is ruining the name of maps in general, harming the reputation of those few good maps out there.

I Know I am not alone when I say there needs to be a seperate Map STEX

quote>

 

They all show up together. Take the extra, hmm....let me see..... 2 seconds it takes to click BATS on the STEX page.

[subedei 3]

My opinion on the MEX is it should be brought back. Map makers have come along way and have contributed alot the community. I was very please to see them have their fourm section and I personally think they deserve to have their own seperate exchange. A seperate exchange benefits everyone.

Subedei

[cogeo 960]

Voar Tok, why all this hassle? Looks like you simply don't want or like this proposal and you're just trying to find "arguments" to "prove" that's a bad idea.

Definitely, storing some 20 booleans (even as separate fields, not encoded in a single field) on the user's preferences record isn't a resource hog at all - it doesn't even compare with a signature or these "quote" fields; storing them in some cookie is feasible as well and I don't see why the fact that the cookie system was updated after the switch is an argument against.

The criteria should be:

- Do we really want the proposed feature or not?

- Will it make browsing the STEX better?

My answer is yes in both cases.

The other point of course is if the site's admin and  staff agree too, and are willing to make the required implementation effort. I don't know how much effort this would be though (the site's staff know) but it would be a nice feature.

[jackel.22 3]

release a map mega pack.... bsc and csx did this with props and textures so why not with maps? instead of flooding it with maps everyday there should be a weekly update where all the maps are put into one file. this would stop the flood and deter people  from foolding it.

[JustinHayward 10]

Well well well - I was wondering when some of the "Big guns" of the Batting community would join this debate - well as one big gun to another Pegasus - I agree totally with what you have posted.

I have downloaded somewhere in the region of 800 Bats - I have the whole of the Pegasus Mountain theme pack, the Coastal Development Kit, and the ponds and canals, plus a few rock and water mods. I also have almost every one of Porkissimo's french buildings and a few by Valkhass, and others, Simgoober - well anyone who doesnt have a goober in thier folder doesnt play SC4 - I also use mods by Andreas Roth and the german team.

Also Peg - if you would care to view some of my maps you will see that many members have commented that the map would look great to build on using PEGASUS MOUNTAIN THEME PACK - comments that I wholeheartedly agree with - so hows about some mutual respect and appreciation here ?

And - yes, BATs, lots, and mods are downloaded considerably more than Maps

There is an ELITE amongst BATters - there is an ELITE amongst MODders - and there is an ELITE amongst MAPpers

There are also BATters, MODders, Lotters and MAPpers who basically are USELESS

I find it rather amusing to see BATTERS and members alike saying maps should be sent to the far extremes of the STEX - well it wasnt very long ago that all hell broke loose on the STEX and the forums, where one group of batters were ripping apart another group of batters, vehemently supported by thier respective cliques, basically resulting in gang warfare, and thug mentality - but now, guess what??? Mappers are an easier target arent they - because we are a smaller group ......... now, wheres that forum on racism bigotry and prejudice ...................................

[callagrafx 3]

Shall we all wait and see what Dirk and the gangs solution to this issue is? What started as a pretty lively debate has quickly turned into a MAP vs BAT fight and what should dominate the STEX.

Both forms of custom content (the key words here) are as equally valuable to different types of member. For instance, I can make maps, but I can't BAT, so as I download other peoples work, I upload mine. It's called an EXCHANGE remember?

Whilst no restriction should EVER be put on who can upload (which would quickly destroy ST) it seems sensible to have a separate exchange for maps, so every contributor gets a fair crack of the whip. that's my 5 pence worth (gone up cos of inflation).

Blackbeard: Please remember that not everyone comes to ST looking for BAT's...I first came here looking for a map, as I suspect a number of other members have.

[JustinHayward 10]

Call - it always was going to be a battle between BATS and MAPS

Up until recently it was a battle between batter and batter - well now mappers are fighting for rights ................ and also fighting to do something about those ummmmm "mappers" who are giving the rest of us a bad name ..............

[callagrafx 3]

Originally posted by: JustinHayward Call - it always was going to be a battle between BATS and MAPS

Up until recently it was a battle between batter and batter - well now mappers are fighting for rights ................ and also fighting to do something about those ummmmm "mappers" who are giving the rest of us a bad name ..............quote>

It is always good to fight for your rights, but the only "rights" we enjoy at ST are the rights to upload, download and express opinions, we do not have the right to say "your work is crap...I FORBID you to post any more". We have the right to say "your work is crap" but no more.

Whilst I agree that bad mappers are ruining the STEX, it should not be treated as a warzone or a forum to say "my work is better than yours". A bad mapper is to be pitied and if necessary, ignored.

We cannot exclude anyone who makes a contribution, bad or good...to do so ignores the fundamental principle of ST.

Everyone knows you are probably one of the best Mappers on ST, that rep alone carries you above the bad mappers, so for you to come down to their level (and the level of other so called batters whose only contribution has been slated) demeans you and your argument. Until Dirk decides what is best for ST, I will continue to mentally filter out the crappy maps AND bats (for there are many of those too). My advice.....light em if you got em.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

Hi.... I agree We should have the MEX back again. Grant it I like some of the maps but The stex seems to be flooded with maps latly pushing peoples lots or bats off the main screen. The MEX was a great idea at its time and made finding the map you wanted easier than it is now. I don't know why it was taken off but PLEASE PLEASE put it back on.

Lynks

[callagrafx 3]

Originally posted by: pmiller19574 Grant it I like some of the maps but The stex seems to be flooded with maps latly pushing peoples lots or bats off the main screen.quote>

Missing the point...Why should a BAT or LOT be on the main screen and a MAP not? There is no law to say that BATs have a higher value than maps...they are all equal in the eyes of the STEX. A separate MEX is Dirks decision (personally, I think it would be the right one), as he and the others are the poor sods who will have to implement and maintain.

[JustinHayward 10]

pmiller just proved my point !!!!

This IS a fight between batters and mappers - for heavens sake - I and the other GOOD mappers are NOT going to stand back and have the BATTERS try and tell us they have more rights on this site than WE do !!!!

Call - your comments are sensible, fair, and just - this is an EXCHANGE - but it is becomming totally devoid of any mutual respect and appreciation - and PLEASE do not tell me I am the one showing a lack of respect !!! I am not the one saying batters should be removed to the darkest corners of the STEX - or even that Batters should be removed from the STEX - but ALL these damn comments have been directed at mappers !!!!

Signed

ANGRY CONTRIBUTOR TO THE STEX AND HIGHLY RATED TOO !!!!!

[callagrafx 3]

Hey Justin, I wasn't saying you are showing a lack of respect dude, just that you need to be less forceful in your opinion...let those without a decent argument be the ones to make themselves look foolish and beligerent. I am behind your PoV 100% but I think there are better ways to resolve the issue....I vote for topless model mud wrestling...I bet on the blonde.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

Originally posted by: Pegasus

This discussion has been going on over at our support site for quite some time. The STEX has been literally inundated with map uploads and it is creating a bigger problem than most folk realize. If effect... all those maps are killing off what remains of the community's interest in the game. 

Allow me to explain:

-

 Simtropolis is the premier fansite for SimCity4. I think we can safely say that Simtropolis is largely responsible for the continued fan/community interest is a game that is  3+ years old and is no longer supported by the company that published it.

-  Despite all that Simtropolis has to offer, I think we can safely say that the STEX is by far the biggest draw to the site.

-  The STEX is an open exchange where items related to the game (except city maps, for some reason) can be uploaded and shared with other players. This includes regional maps as well as BATS, Lots, Mods, Textures, etc...  There also is no distinction or discrimination made on the quality of the item uploaded. Be it really good or just bloody awful... its welcome on the STEX. Newbies are encouraged to try their hand at developing custom content... just so long as they have fun doing it. 

-  However, I think we can safely say that a large percentage of the STEX users are looking for BATS/Lots/Mods more than any other type of item.

Okay... here's the problem:

- 

 The default display of the STEX is a list of the most recently uploaded items. Most visitors to the STEX never see anything other than that list. Yes, there are filters and other options to change what is listed. Most only involve a single mouse click... and with all the work Dirk & staff have done on the site,  re-generating the list is much faster than it once was. There's really no good reason why anyone can't filter the list to show only the items they are interested in.

-  But they don't. People are creatures of habit and their habit is to just pop in from time to time and see what's on the default list. And what they are mostly seeing... is maps.

- 

 And because of this, some pretty good BATs/Lots/Mods, etc..   the very items that most STEX users are coming to the STEX to get...  are never seen. Because so many maps are being uploaded, all the other items, including other maps of which many are very good... are cycled off the default list... usually on the same day that they are uploaded and quite often with just a few hours.

-  And as any developer who uploads to the STEX can attest to, once an upload cycles off the default list, its almost never seen again. The number of views and downloads drops dramatically.

So.... How is this killing off player interest in the game, you ask? Stay with me now...

- 

 More and more players are coming to the STEX and finding less and less of the items that interest them the most. Those items are still there... but they just don't see them. So they start coming to the STEX less and less... and many have obviously stopped looking altogether.

-  The reward a developer gets for all the time and effort it takes to produce a popular item is generally the appreciative comments many downloader's make and, of course, the number of downloads the uploaded item gets.

-  But as their uploads are pushed off the default list so quickly by the large number of maps, the uploads are not visible for very long and therefore not downloaded very much. And as the number of comments and downloads diminish, so does the motivation to create new items to upload and share. This has already taken its tolls. We have lost many good developers who just assumed that no one was interested anymore.... so they lost interest as well.

-  As the developers lose interest and wander off, so do the players. The massive influx of new BATs/Lots/Mods is what has kept this old game "fresh" for so many players. Without it, the game and community will simple fade out to a footnote in chronicles of computer gaming history.

-  Pretty much any hope to motivate EA/Maxis to produce a new version of our beloved game, rests on convincing them that a large and loyal fan base (aka... a market) still exists for the game. As our community shrinks, so does our odds of seeing a motivated effort  from EA/Maxis to develop the next version.

quote>

 

Yes this is exacly how things are working out. Thanks for posting such an insitefull post. We had a mex when I 1st started to visit this site and sometime later that was taken off. If it could be revived and brought back  I think this would be worth the effort. Maybe even perhapes changing the default list to show more new uploaded things also. I have been fortunate to get at least 300+ downloads of my new lots that I actually put alot of thought and effort into now instead of flooding the stex with lots that do not work. I have heard many complaints about maps shoving good lots or bats off that screen. Yes my habbit is to take a look at whats been uploaded recently only to see it dominated by maps.

Lynks

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

Originally posted by: callagrafx

Originally posted by: pmiller19574 Grant it I like some of the maps but The stex seems to be flooded with maps latly pushing peoples lots or bats off the main screen.quote>

Missing the point...Why should a BAT or LOT be on the main screen and a MAP not? There is no law to say that BATs have a higher value than maps...they are all equal in the eyes of the STEX. A separate MEX is Dirks decision (personally, I think it would be the right one), as he and the others are the poor sods who will have to implement and maintain.quote>

 

Hello

I don't mean to make this anymore of a war than it seems right now... I would suppose as my husband says most of the time I do not have a point. Yes mappers have a right to upload their work. I am not saying you don't it just seems that about all we see now. that is my only point. Please do not take it anymore than an opinion that is all it is. If I want to see just my lots then I just hit the little button to see if my lots have any new downloads thats not really a problem. 

    Lets see if I can make this clear. I feel that the mappers should have a place they can upload their maps with its own favorit list ect like it used to work on here that is all I am saying to make it fair for both sides. I have mad my share of maps only to find out they were crappy so I gave that up. Making maps take a talent that I do not have. 

I am sorry if I have made this seem to be a fight between batters and mapper that was not my intention. My $0.01 cent is Bring back the nex and if that cant be done then thats fine it never hurts to ask if I dont want to see them yes I can filter them out. again sorry 

Lynks

[BarbyW 40]

What started as a reasonable discussion seems to be stooping to a Mapper v everyone else dispute. Like pmiller when I first joined ST in v3 there was a MEX and it was an excellent place to search for new maps. When that went with the upgrade to v4 there didn't seem to be too much of a problem until about 6 months ago. Now please note, I am not denigrating the skill put in by accomplished mapmakers as I know they spend a lot of time and care in their maps. However as justinhayward said in his first post in this thread:

I am well aware that we all have to start somewheres, and map making is no different - its a learning curve - but comments in the description box like "I knocked this up in 10 mins" I think are an INSULT to the members.

There are dozens of maps on the STEX produced 100% by Landscape Designer - with little or no input from the "creator" - to put it in cold harsh terms - any silly fool can press a button and churn out a map !!!

I am NOT the best map maker on the STEX - not by a long long way - but myself and many others spend hours creating our maps, and always at least attempt, to service map requests from the members - for which we are thanked and applauded.

It infuriates several of us to see such rubbish being uploaded lately and passed off as "My own original creation" RUBBISH - landscape designer created it !!!!! quote>

I really don't know exactly how the topic became a slanging match but it does seem have come from the mapmaker side. I have no desire to throw maps off the STEX and I don't think anyone else has said that either. The most sensible solution would be a filter that allowed you to view everything EXCEPT whatever. That could be maps, or BATs or props. The present filter only allows one category to be viewed so a more versatile one would be better.

Please let us stop this Map v BAT v lot argument as it is serving no useful purpose.

[Mary Maurine Mayo 984]

thank you barbyw... the current filters only allow for maps or just lots or someother thing. If we could say I want to see bats and lots then hit that filter that would be a wonderful alternative to a mex... So lets see better filters perhapes for those who want to see certain things. that would be an exceptable resolve.

thanks again Barby that was what I was trying to say but could not find the words....

Lynks

[callagrafx 3]

Actually Barbyw, it seems that this was the first dig at mapmakers, we are just reacting to it.

Originally posted by: jglei701

The reality is this:  A BAT can be used in a multitude of cities within a region.  A map can only provide one region.  The ratio of maps (i.e. "playing surfaces") to BATs (i.e. playing tools) is far too high IMHO for them to reside on the same exchange.

[JustinHayward 10]

I agree call - and to answer your question Barbyw -

It became a slanging match when certain members came in here saying maps have no place on the stex - the point that makes me roar with laughter though is those members who say map making is so easy yet do not have an equisite creation of thier own on the STEX !!! - Full of hot air ????

I also resent the idea of  TOP batters coming in here and elevating bats above all else - NO barbyw I am NOT referring to you - your comments was fair and balanced - thankyou for that