soylentgarnet

Hi everyone This is my first post despite being a follower of the community for quite a while. As a brief introduction, I started playing again sc4, one of my favourite games as a child, during COVID pandemic and I ended up discovering and opening the Pandora's box of custom content that kept this game fresh even after more than 20 years. As an architect myself I've been gradually dragged into experimenting with models and modding, so finally I felt like I had to give my humble contribution too. There is one thing in particular fr me that has always had great unexpressed potential: fractional angled networks. I’m European and I always wished to build realistic neighborhoods with w2w blocks following the different orientations of historical roads, or create urban grids with different directions. So, also inspired by this old bat, I worked back and forth in my free time to develop a system of fractional angled w2w buildings that cover most of the possible combinations of the current FA3 road network, in both the mirrored versions. The lots are mostly 1x3 in size, to match the FA3 grid, and I tried to keep the same distance from the road as it is in the orthogonal network. To identify the different types, each fitting a different canfiguration, I gave a code of numbers and letters: "S" for straights, "T" for transitions", "C" or Corners; then the orientaions: "R" for right, "L" for left. The test models are in a classic european style, mostly using as a reference Copenhagen Vesterbro, but I would like to add more variety in height and details. For more realistic proportions I also divided the longer buildings in 2 parts,unfortunately I realized too late that this way the roadside T21 trees of the FAR draggable are exactly in front of the entrance doors, glitching with the facade especially when using a tree replacement mod (should i rethink the models or is there a simple way to move-remove those trees?) Among the various issues that have emerged these made me questioning the most: Buildings, props and lots To create lots I used these blank models and turned my renders as overhanging props in PIM X. Not sure if it is the right approach. I noticed aslo that the nightlight seems not to always function correctly, even with all lots being powered. Is this related to the props which are partially offset, the blank building or is it just random? However if the models are directly set as buildings in PIM-X , instead of props, the nightlight seems to always work. I would need to reshape my carefully thought system of offsets in 3dsmax tho, not to mention the risk of immortal lots. So Which is the best strategy overall? Functionality The way to go i guess is to make the buildings as ploppable landmarks, the new submenus system can then be used to make them easy to find (would be nice too have a specific FA submenu, that maybe could include diagonals too, but never mind). I’d like them to be functional too and the growify plopped building cheat works perfecly to solve that. With commercial is easy, but how should i do if i want them to be also residential? In PIM-X there is no option for residential ploppable and set them as growables is out of discussion as they could randomly appear on normal networks. Apparently i’m not the only one interested in this, is that the way? Sidewalks Testing the growify DLL I noticed one more interesting thing: Usually a full sidewalk does not appear with ploppable lots for density reasons, leaving the grass visible along the road. But the growify DLL updates also the behaviour of the sidewalk according to the building category and density: redrawing the road was enough to show up the full sidewalks after growifying. This is a good way to avoid “no grass” mods, fillers, or the tedious work of making offset sidewalks embedded in the models. In alternative I was using also the old FA3 puzzle pieces, with the NAM facelift mod that shows full sidewalksand has no trees (but no lights either) and easier to build crossroads. Actually I made a custom texture override for the crossroad puzzle pieces to add the zebras, (you might see it in some pictures), but they only work with the puzzle pieces, is that the corresponding draggable textures have a different IDs? Or maybe was just a rought attempt using an old repository... Nightlighting Back to lights I never liked much the fixed night renders coming with bat4max, They have better quality, but i love to play with the sunrise-sunset transitions. Rivit did a great tool in GoFSH to mod lights and nightypes. I did some tests, a bit tricky but it doesn’t seem rocket science. therefore I’m thinking to go this way, render a fixed night with bat4max, then make it adaptable using Gofsh and eventually share that, instead of rendreing and uploading both MN and DN. Does this make sense? It is still a work in progress so suggests and critics are more than welcome Enough for now anyway, cheers, Alessandro

Is it really worth now to discuss about the voting system? Despite often forgotten democracy is not supposed to be the “winner takes it all”. But rather an active system based on discussion and compromises. This debate has already been more productive than waiting passively for march 3: Those same people who proposed the original tilesets have been rethinking and revising them. And I don't feel it impossible to find a common solution where both approaches work in a flawless way. If then we realize that most of the players would want it their own way anyway I already proposed a reasonable “Plan B” that would not disappoint anybody. After all is just a game

Might be ironic but actually I'm an architect myself too… Anyway, The four original maxis tileset were intended to be kept and included in the aforementioned list in the corresponding ones. And would still keep a total of around 16 main options for the moment, with the possibility to expand. Also to clarify, further proposal have been brought up here because none of the original got a reasonable support over the other. The debate then is more about the logic behind how they should be organized, which can have a big impact on the use of the mod. I think that through discussion is possible to reach a general compromise, with inputs from different players, in a better way than with a strict elimination vote. However, is also true that many players would want to customizing the mod further anyway at their preference. If it is really too difficult to find a common ground the Plan B should not necessarily be to archive the mod. Also, the new BATs that will be created following the new system will be likely few compared to the existing content. And As already pointed out, this will require a huge amount of work to redefine the IDs of existing content on the STEX, reuploading them and expecting the players to redownload all the updated content of their plugin folders. This process will make the use of the mod effective only after a considerable amount of time and effort and it will always be incomplete: impossible to cover all the existing content not to mention all the BATs not present on the STEX. So, how about to release the mod with an adaptable base framework and a clear tutorial on how anyone can change names (maybe image icons too) and update his own plugin folder to desired tileset? (I’m not a coding expert tho, and this would work only if there is an easy and fast way to patch all the lots in a folder to a specific tileset ID, which even non expert player can do at their own will) This will cut short any discussion, be more friendly to every user preferences and avoid the need for tedious reuploading and redownloading of old content. players can do it only for their plugins, including buildings from Stex and from other websites. Also, there won't be confusion for players that don't want the mod or want to use it just for few features. I can see even just the button to sort W2Ws as a game changer for many people.

To continue the discussion about the different systems: I agree that a pure regional style is problematic. Regardless of how many regions will be needed, to dismiss it is enough the fact that grouping together buildings from very different times makes it impossible to control consistent city growth for the player. A pure time system might solve that but it is falling into the opposite issues. weather a player wants to be stuck on a specific timeline or let the natural flow of time following his city construction. History has seen different styles of architecture being built in different locations at the same time (at the beginning of 1900 in the US they were already building skyscrapers while europe was stile in "belle epoque"). The only way it could work, to quote, is if “You keep out inappropriately regional buildings by curating your plugins folder” But in my opinion this is the exact reason why I would like this mod: not to let things out from my plugin folder or being forced to plop them as I have been doing until now. This is why I found a pure Style based system being as much problematic as the Regional and Time ones.. I read the article, Maxis idea at origin was quite brilliant to build stylistic consistent cities, we all can agree that in real life it is common to find similar architectural features and trends in buildings all over the world, especially after the diffusion of modern movement but also before with colonialism But that said the same architecture styles can have different declinations indifferent countries and the style of a building is not always something so clear do define. Landmarks are usually easy to recognize as being the symbols, but This mod will address mostly growable and often quite generic buildings that might not be so immediately easy to associate to an architecture style or another, especially for a non expert person. Having a specific city name and a date for worldwide styles makes also tilesets less intuitive for a player. I have to make an effort to remember that i need the Rotterdam tileset if i want to build a Tokyo metabolist neighborhood. And i think this is at the basis of the confusion generated by the original Maxis tilesets. Furthermore it goes the same argument for the region based system: if is needed a tileset for each architecture style this could arrive to more than 50, and grouping them together could also generate a little confusion (What does really have Hong Kong HSBC tower in common with a prefabricated blocks from eastern europe? Why London Victorian architecture deserves a tileset but Dutch Reinassance does not?) There are also in game technical aspects to consider. For example The current W2W American buildings have a different setback than the european ones. Someone might not be happy to mix them together even if they have the similar styles But let’s say that we make all this to work with proposed style tilesets and imagine a scenario: I’m building a contemporary european city I play with historical eclectic tilesets to build the city centre, nice. Then i want a splash of postmodern offices to give that 80s business district feeling and I turn on the Houston tileset. BAM! an Hong Kong pink pencil tower completely out of scale now dominates my skyline. Then I go to the suburb to build modernist prefabricated housing block, BAM! A metabolism japanese condominium with a japanese billboard pops up. To give this as a necessary condition is very restricting in my opinion. The mod is supposed to allow the player more choice and more control on what it grows in the city and where in the most intuitive way. I believe that a system should be as much flexible as possible, regardless of what is there in the plugin folder. (When the game came out Maxis didn't have the large amount of regional specific BATS w have today) What really makes a building recognizable in is a mix of both style and geographical features. That’s why I’m still convinced that an Hybrid system is the best approach: In geographical terms I believe there are few macro-areas in which can be divided generally different patterns and urban environments: 1 - Europe Cities grown through centuries, regular and irregular urban blocks with narrow streets and historical buildings mixed with modern. An average mid-low rise height (4-5 floors), few highrises and office complexes built mostly after WWII, Suburban areas with a mix of single houses rowhouses and modernist blocks. 2 - America, Canada, Australia and most of Central and South American cities: Cities with more recent history, planned on grid layouts with narrow and deep plots, more car oriented. Downtowns with large boulevards and a mix of modern and less modern highrises. Average taller scale, flat roofs. Suburban sprawl with detached houses and commercial boxes. 3 - Asia Rapid urbanization, high density, narrow plots, modern appearance with few historical buildings preserved, streets with large billboards, lights, signage and visible electric facilities. pagoda shaped roofs in traditional buildings 4 - North Africa - Middle East Islamic architecture, typical bazaars with narrow streets and dense urban aggregation, arid climate, flat roofs. Plus Modern Contemporary highrise boom in Dubai and surrounding I know it Is not accurate, but covers what are the most generic case scenarios. I would then divide these groups in categories with more distinctive time periods and architecture styles Europe: Paris 1890s Second empire Berlin - Central European architecture from late XIX and early XX century (Eclectic, Art nouveau, Secession, Expressionism etc) Dutch Reinassance to early XX century - peculiar dutch style with narrow facades and red bricks London 1900s - victorian and edwardian styles Mediterranean - typical southern europe premodern to mid XX century, houses with large balconies and terraces, pitched roofs with ceramic tiles in warm colours Postwar modernism and socialist architecture Euro-contemporary - Postmodern and Modern european architecture from the 80s to today North America, Canada, Australia, South America (Following maxis approach): Chicago 1890, chicago school, Romaneque, Beaux arts... New york 1940 - aAt deco, Neoclassicism, Gothic revival... Los Angeles 1960s-70s International style, midcentury modern, new formalism, brutalism (to be used also for the european tileset) Houston 1990 - american postmodern and contemporary architecture Central-South America - Peculiar tileset with colonial buildings, south american w2w sets etc Asia traditional and premodern architecture 80s modern and contemporary japanese and asian architecture Hong kong set - southeast asia postmodern to contemporary megastructures, highrises and distinctive buildings Africa-Middle east might be worth a tileset for vernacular islamic architecture even if is a bit too specific. Dubai and Emirates highrises instead could match Hong Kong and southeast asia tileset, Again, this is a draft and can be articulated more and in more historical periods and styles. but I think it is already covering different possibilities without being neither too generic nor too specific.Names can be discussed, but a city and a year should be pretty self explanatory already of what the tileset is about both geographically and in terms of style. More space could be left then for more niche sets specifically themed (both in style and location) such as wild wild west, ancient greek-roman architecture, medieval europe etc, and the the player can reserve to them a specific tileset out of the others if is too particular to add to community tilesets To solve the ambiguities generated by some building they can easily be placed in multiple tilesets. As an example, a generic beaux arts european building can fit both in Berlin and Chicago tilesets, imagining it could suit even an american environment. However a Beaux arts Chicago skyscraper would never really fit into a European environment and therefore it should only go to Chicago tileset. This also allows a more flexible use of the buildings, without limiting them to a single specific tileset. For the gameplay, If you want to build a themed regional city you will still need to switch between different tileset, allowing a fair amount of control. - Going back to the the previous scenario, all the historical european buildings, postmodern offices and prefabricated blocks will still be separated in three different tilesets, but there won’t be the risk of an Honk Kong tower or a Japanese condominium to pop up even if they are in your plugin - On the contrary, Players that are more interested in time related growth can focus on the historical styles or the modern ones, with a bit less accuracy maybe, but they will have some regional variation that wasn’t possible in a pure Time defined system (let’s also remember that even historical buildings in game are thought to be in a contemporary environment with cars etc). If you are not interested at all in regional theme then you just mix freely from similar timelines. As a plus Many creators have been focusing on specific areas (Xannepan and Porkissimo made almost only Parisian buildings). This approach would keep grouped together most of the content from the same creators, that usually have a common aesthetic and that someone might want as a tileset criteria too. Other arbitrary criteria instead, such as “rural architecture” or “skyscrapers” only, shouldn’t be necessary, because these features could already be controlled by setting density and zoning.

Ok, a lot has been said already but I have the feeling then that the discussion between architectural styles, time periods and regional tilesets went a bit out of hand. It shouldn’t be an aut-aut and there was already common ground from the discussed proposals that seemed very promising to me. I agree with Andreas and I believe that a common ground to satisfy everyone can be found, also by leaving a large flexibility. I started from few assumption that i think most would agree: For modders should be easy to clearly identify in which tilesets fit their new creations or anything from the existing content, For the players should be easy to know where the downloaded bat will grow and which tilesets to turn on when they want to give a distinctive character to their neighborhood or city. There should not be too many main tilesets or might become confusing but at the same time not too few or they will miss the purpose of the mod (eventually very specific ones can be added and customised further at each player will) The last proposed list By Jasoncw is pragmatic but and i like the style themed approach, but it seems to work given that players have already a themed plugin folder. However one of the reasons i was enthusiastic about this mod, when I first saw it, was exactly that it would allow to build cities with distinctive characters without the need of plopping or swapping plugin folders: A player could have a japanese region, a Manhattan replica and a Classic european city and playing all them just switching freely, or at least I think he should have this possibility to control this. So, even in the “scenario 3” he might want to keep everything in his plugin folder at the same time (as long as his pc does not explode). It seems also from the discussion that a building has to be strictly linked to one only tileset. But there are many gray areas both with styles and regional approaches A building can fit in more than one tileset and this is the way that many batters have already set up: I downloaded many beautiful Jasoncw W2W BATs that can grow both in Chicago and NY and modern commercial ones that grows both in Euro Contemporary and Houston tilesets. Why not to continue with this approach? Is more intuitive in my opinion than placing a distinctive european postmodern building in the Houston tileset only when there is euro-contmporary . So, I know a new list might be superfluous but I wanted to be less abstract and for the tilesets I tried to relate with the most popular content from the community, that we might be more familiar with. The tileset categories are based on the already proposed ones (for the names are just symbolic, i also agree with Andreas to leave more freedom to the player to customise it), Chicago 1890 (existing)- Chicago School, US Beaux Arts - American themed buildings and W2W by Jasoncw, Jpshriefer, nofunk, MP , Simcoug early 19th century tenements , JBsimio smalltown US, Simcoug (the most generic ones can be shared with NY tileset) New York 1940 - (existing) - Art deco, neogthic streamlined and distinctive NYC architecture - W2W and buildings by NYBT, Aarongraham apartments, MSZ, JasonCW, MP ,Mattb325, WGL NYC Pack, Donmiguel rowhouses, Solidsnake rowhouses, tdp, (the most generic ones can be shared with Chicago tileset) Houston 1990 (existing) - Postomodern,deconstrutivist american buildings from 80s-90s - modern buildings and skyscrapers from Scotty222, mattb325, Jason cw, nofunk, Gutterclub, MP, spa modern w2w - most of modern american commercials from 80s-90s, detatc houses residential suburban sprawl and shopping malls- department stores (generic ones could be shared with the euro contemporary tileset) Frankfurt 2000 - Euro contemporary (existing) - Modern architecture from -90s to today (I would include in this also the “copenhagen 2025” tileset proposed by JasonCW) - Monden commercial by mattb325, NDEX-ITS modern uk bats, Delecto, BNL, kellydale, girafe,, SimCity4IE, Xyloxadoria, mattb325, ESA,, spa, Koumous scandinavian contemporary, the shard etc, Mattb325 modern rowhuses, townhouses and apartments, - european branded suburban shopping malls and department stores (generic ones could be shared with Houston tileset) Paris 1890 - Second Empire, Haussmann Paris - Porkissimo, Xannepan, SFBT Parisian BATs, WannGLondon Paris pack etc. London 1890 - Uk georgian and victorian architecture, arts and crafts Gasooker, Mattb325 london terraces, Bombardiere, WannGLondon UK packs, justforfun. jen_p, historical sets by NDEX-ITS, mntoes rowhouses Berlin 1920 - Central Europe architecture from the beginning of the century (I would include here also european expressionist, early modern and rationalist architecture) - Buldings by Debussyman, Aarsgevogelte, Erdmobel, Haarlemgold german sets, Jonm, Odd, SFBT prewar German sets,Wallibuk, Ferox and former SCpolska content by Kontrabass, Motokloss, DaveN etc, - Glenni, Krio, Prepo, Koumous, Oidaas prewar scandinavian W2W and houses Rome 1750 - Mediterranean Buildings from Italy, Spain, South france, Greece -WGL mediterranean sets, Jack Iberiada sets, Italian buildings and collection with relots Amsterdam 1870 - Dutch distinctive dutch typical houses from renaissance to early XX century that is quite distinctive from central european buildings from the same period - Content from BNL, Frank U, Dutch content from Haarlemgold, Aarsgevogelte, vanderaap - i would include also few postwar ones that keep the typical dutch house character with red bricks and narrow tall to keep consistent. - Dutch Neoclassical or eclectic buildings can be in multiple tilesets, both in this and in Berlin 1920 Los Angeles 1960 - International style and Midcentury modern across the world - IDS2, JasoncW, various mattb325 commercial and highrise, SgtPepper, Scoty222, JPSchriefer, spa, DDL and Darknono35 skyscraper from that period. Warsaw 1970 - Postwar, socialist and brutalist architecture from central-east europe - ScPolska prefabricated blocks by Ferox, kb7, KCP, DaveN, szymcar, SFBT german and moscow blocks, delija21, other by Glenni, michal27278, SimHoToddy, commercial euro buildings from the same period like delija21 modernist department stores, Glenni brutalist w2w, etc ( they could share international style tileset too) Tokyo 1980 - asian and japanese themed architecture - houses and commercials from Moonlight. gobanoshi, SOMY, nkt, kei, tds22 including modern japanese w2w, distintive for asian japanese signage and graphics that would not really fit well in european context (generic ones can be shered with euro contemporary and houston tilesets) Hong Kong 2010 - HK and south east Asia megabloks and exotic skyscarpers - HKBat team, Bixel, on001222, , ksjpn, Simfox (can be discussed to include this tileset into the Houston 1990) Sao Paulo 1990 - South american - colonial themed distinctive buildings - Harishna mexico city w2w, LBT w2w, Maloskero , Wallibuk favelas , slum sets, south american house packs by Debussyman Metropolis 2050 - All the ll highly futuristic bats (Sim Mars...) These are 15 tilesets , but is open to discussion whether to optimize it or add more to the main ones. I could think of "Medieval europe - ( xannepan premodern buildings etc) Middle east (Ts vernacular sets etc) but might be too specific) I have Just one last technical question, that maybe was already answered but i wanted to clarify: Should any new released bat always have at least one of the 4 main styles embedded to grow also for those who won’t use the mod?

Thanks, i do appreciate the support. For the curves is a totally legitimate question, I realized i had skipped that too. I was thinking to add the ones for FA to diagonal (it means 4 new lots, one internal and one external for each side, but I still have to model that), i'm not so sure for FA to orthogonal, I guess you were referring to something like this, but i think is a quite rare situation even in real cities. the internal one might be interesting to do tho. For removing trees a T21 override mode can be actually a great ideaotherwise i should remodel everything to solve the glitch. For those who want to keep the trees in rural situations would be also great if there is a way to remove them only on medium and high density. but i would leave this answer to experts. I only tried some T21 basic modding too for some realistic streetside parking in straight pieces, and i remember to be already a bit tricky. About the functional lots I would like to realease them both as landmarks with jobs (that can be growified to commercials) and residential ploppale (made with above linked forum method by Kel9509, that can be growified too), up to the users then to keep those they prefer whether or not they have the growify chet DLL. But thanks a lot for the tips about growables and stage property, i didnt know about that. For sidewalks, after having found out that the growify DLL solves the density grass problem i think i will just go leaving them like that, without any baked in sidewalks or props. I'm totally up for using them in all unhortodox ways myself too! especially to build pedestrian areas with FA oriented neightborhoods just like in many european centres. Further wish would be that those FA3 one way road and avenue puzzle pieces would get draggable function or at least crossorads too, but i know is not NAM prority at the moment.

Thanks everyone for the nice feedbacks! I will indeed be happy to realese them, hopefully soon, after solving the forementioned issues. Actually I had been working on them for a while now, I had even started to set up the system FA-2, I would like them to look realistic and nice with most of already present custom content, the fact is that sometimes I might be just too perfectionist. thanks also for mentioning that, I did check that light property in PIM-X when making them and seemed good, but i admit i'm not at a deep level of coding knowledge, could be easy to have made some small mistakes in the process. And thanks especially for that, I was rereading your posts, that came up exactly when i was trying to figure out the same questions. Seemed a very brilliant job, I will give it a try following your steps to create the residentials, but i would also be happy to consider your offer eventually if I realize is something too complex for me!