JinRenegade

There's still time - I have until the 17th to submit it. This is excellent evidence for proving scenarios, with specific challenges and outcomes, do exist in SC1 and showing that you can actually fail SC2k in free-form play (therefore achieving the "Meaningful Outcome" part of Juul's Classic Game Model, which constitutes what is a game and what is not a game). If I could get "Game Over" quotes from SC1, SC3k and SC4 (as an image would be best), to see if they're all the same, then that'd be perfect as well (I can refer back to this thread in my bibliography). But so far, thank you very much for posting these! If anyone's interested, this is what Jesper Juul has to say about SimCity (the first game). The third part, where he says "No outcomes are assigned values" can be wrong if you are able to achieve a "Game Over" screen by poorly managing your finances. If the game is completely endless, where you literally cannot fail, then it cannot be considered a game unless you apply your own meaningful outcomes to it (e.g. "I'm going to build a city of X population with X amount of time"). For example, Cities: Skylines - there is no "Game Over" screen, and if your finances plunge into unplayability, you are given free bailouts every month until you have enough to start over again rather than being forced back to the main menu. If you do not apply your own meaningful outcome, then it just becomes a "fun activity". It's more a game of "paidia" rather than "ludus".

Ah, so you can definitely achieve a "Game Over" screen in the first and second games? In the "Create Your Own City" gamemode (free-form play)? Do you know what the requirements are to achieve that? It'd be really useful to know so that I can write about it in my dissertation as I must provide evidence for each point I make, and stating the specific requirement can be counted as evidence - it provides the lecturer an avenue to find out for themselves whether or not I was telling the truth, in the same way that you have to cite where (i.e. which page / line) you draw your quotes and sources from academic / factual documents. If at all possible, a screenshot would be perfect evidence as well (requirement should also be stated as I said above, though).

Excellent, just what I needed, thank you very much! Now, I just need to know about SC1, 2k and 3k! (especially the first game)

Everything that you have said is indeed true, but I'm wondering if it is possible to literally fail the game (i.e. achieve a "Game Over" screen") in the first two SimCity games (not the scenario section, but the "Create Your Own City" gamemode)? If so, how is that possible to achieve? I at the very least know that it certainly is possible to get a "Game Over" screen in both SimCity 3000 and SimCity 4, so I was also wondering how exactly you can achieve this (i.e. what amount of debt do you have to acquire in order to fail)? Reason I ask is because, if there is at least one outcome that be achieved (i.e. failure), then SimCity can at the very least be considered a borderline game rather than not a game at all, therefore putting all of these academic's points that SimCity is not a game at all into the toilet, by the very definitions that they have drawn up.

Hi there, I'm currently writing a dissertation for university on what defines a "game", and would like some help with something (skip to the end if you want to know what piece of information I specifically need to complete my work). I have read through many academics on their works, from past to present (e.g. Johan Huizinga - "Homo Ludens", Roger Caillois - "Man, Play and Games", Chris Crawford - "The Art of Computer Game Design", Jesper Juul - "Half-Real" etc). One of the many occurring examples, that the more recent academics write in their works (i.e. Costikyan, Berger, Juul etc), on the topic of what constitutes not to be a game, is apparently SimCIty (the first game). For example, Greg Costikyan writes that: I have never played the first two SimCity games - I have only ever played SimCity 3000 (which was a long time ago and I do not have a copy anymore) and SimCity 4. However, upon reading the manuals of both SimCity and SimCity 2000, apparently the games came with two modes of play - scenario play and the base game itself. Within these scenarios, you assume the role as mayor of a currently built city, and you must reach certain goals within a time limit to win. If you do not, you fail. This is what many would constitute to be a game as it provides at least three tenets that make up a game: 1. Rules, 2. Conflict, 3. A meaningful outcome. The scenario modes were suggested to be implemented by the publisher at the time, Brøderbund, that it would make the product truly a "game" rather than just a simulation. Exerpt from the SimCity Manual: My questions to you SimTropolis are the following: 1. Is it possible, in both the first SimCity and SimCity 2000, to "fail" (i.e. achieve a "Game Over" screen) in the core game (i.e. not the scenarios)? If so, how? I for one know that it is indeed possible to at least fail in the core games of SimCity 3000 and SimCity 4 if your finances take a dip, but I do not know the specifics and do not have the games on hand nor the time at the moment (it was a long time since I last failed SimCity 3000 and SimCity 4, which was many, many years ago when I was messing around with the game to see what would happen if you financially destroyed yourself). So, my second question is the following: 2. How exactly do you fail (i.e. achieve a "Game Over" screen) SimCity 3000 and SimCity 4? Specifics would be great. (I think it had something to do with a certain amount of debt? How much was it?) Any answer to either of these two questions would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Jin

Brief Story: My first nickname was "Renegade" in Jedi Academy multiplayer because I thought the game C&C Renegade was awesome back then. When I started to make accounts around the internet, I found out that Renegade was a common nickname because I couldn't make an account with that name. My older brother, who once played a lot of Counter-Strike, used to have the nickname "DarkerJin" (Jin from Tekken), so I slapped that infront of my nickname to carry on the family internet nickname. I've used this nickname for freaking years now and I recently changed it to "Jinzor". Reason why I haven't changed my nickname to Jinzor here is because I cba.