Unmotivated Boys

[Meg 368]

I saw this article and thought it would be interesting to hear the opinions of people here.

In my day, we called this "Peter Pan Syndrome", when guys had an extreme resistance to adulthood.  But some of the statistics here surprised me.  

"According to the Census Bureau, fully one-third of young men ages 22 to 34 are still living at home with their parents -- a roughly 100 percent increase in the past 20 years. No such change has occurred with regard to young women."

What is up with that? 

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What's Happening to Boys?

Young Women These Days Are Driven -- but Guys Lack Direction

By Leonard Sax
Friday, March 31, 2006

The romantic comedy "Failure to Launch," which opened as the No. 1 movie in the nation this month, has substantially exceeded pre-launch predictions, taking in more than $64 million in its first three weeks.

Matthew McConaughey plays a young man who is affable, intelligent, good-looking -- and completely unmotivated. He's still living at home and seems to have no ambitions beyond playing video games, hanging out with his buddies (two young men who are also still living with their parents) and having sex. In desperation, his parents hire a professional motivation consultant, played by Sarah Jessica Parker, who pretends to fall in love with McConaughey's character in the hope that a romantic relationship will motivate him to move out of his parents' home and get a life.

The movie has received mixed reviews, though The Post's Stephen Hunter praised it as "the best comedy since I don't know when." But putting aside the movie's artistic merits or lack thereof, I was struck by how well its central idea resonates with what I'm seeing in my office with greater and greater frequency. Justin goes off to college for a year or two, wastes thousands of dollars of his parents' money, then gets bored and comes home to take up residence in his old room, the same bedroom where he lived when he was in high school. Now he's working 16 hours a week at Kinko's or part time at Starbucks.

His parents are pulling their hair out. "For God's sake, Justin, you're 26 years old. You're not in school. You don't have a career. You don't even have a girlfriend. What's the plan? When are you going to get a life?"

"What's the problem?" Justin asks. "I haven't gotten arrested for anything, I haven't asked you guys for money. Why can't you just chill?"

This phenomenon cuts across all demographics. You'll find it in families both rich and poor; black, white, Asian and Hispanic; urban, suburban and rural. According to the Census Bureau, fully one-third of young men ages 22 to 34 are still living at home with their parents -- a roughly 100 percent increase in the past 20 years. No such change has occurred with regard to young women. Why?

My friend and colleague Judy Kleinfeld, a professor at the University of Alaska, has spent many years studying this growing phenomenon. She points out that many young women are living at home nowadays as well. But those young women usually have a definite plan. They're working toward a college degree, or they're saving money to open their own business. And when you come back three or four years later, you'll find that in most cases those young women have achieved their goal, or something like it. They've earned that degree. They've opened their business.

But not the boys. "The girls are driven; the boys have no direction," is the way Kleinfeld summarizes her findings. Kleinfeld is organizing a national Boys Project, with a board composed of leading researchers and writers such as Sandra Stotsky, Michael Thompson and Richard Whitmire, to figure out what's going wrong with boys. The project is only a few weeks old, it has called no news conferences and its Web site ( http://www.boysproject.net ) has just been launched.

So far we've just been asking one another the question: What's happening to boys? We've batted around lots of ideas. Maybe the problem has to do with the way the school curriculum has changed. Maybe it has to do with environmental toxins that affect boys differently than girls (not as crazy an idea as it sounds). Maybe it has to do with changes in the workforce, with fewer blue-collar jobs and more emphasis on the service industry. Maybe it's some combination of all of the above, or other factors we haven't yet identified.

In Ayn Rand's humorless apocalyptic novel "Atlas Shrugged," the central characters ask: What would happen if someone turned off the motor that drives the world? We may be living in such a time, a time when the motor that drives the world is running down or stuck in neutral -- but only for boys.

Leonard Sax, a family physician and psychologist in Montgomery County, is the author of "Boys Adrift: What's Really Behind the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys," to be published next year.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Interesting Subject.

Part of may be the fact that they dont see a future for them selves.

They see older friends/siblings coming back from school with thier degrees in hand and can still only find work delivering pizzas or those types pf jobs that dont require spening 1000s of dollors on education. when you can make almost as much money delivering pizzas as you can in most white collar tech jobs( that at anymoment could be out sourced) why spend the money for education or even continue beyond highschool. not that thats an excuse for not being motervated but i can see then "logic" of the attiude.

personaly i wonder how many of those in the study were marijuana users. The use of which has been rising dramaticly in the last 10 years or so.

[moganite 4]

I hope i don't get banned for this but this is what i see. Some parts of this post may  offend some peoples sensibilities it is meant to get you to think, if you are offended that is your own problem and if you want to take it up with me,PM me.

we have a few things going on here that are probably going on that all contribute to  the "problem"

 first is the transition from a manufacturing  economy to a an information one in developed countries while production is sent overseas  this means that there are alot of people being laid off in  industries that  were previously very stable most of these industries are male dominated so this will mean men are hit harder with regards to emplyment.  The areas rising in the economy now don't depend on  on strength and depend on knowledge;  aesthetics. Most of the jobs in the inormation economy  are not highly physical.

This coincides with the rise of feminism and the broadening of the roles for women  this is a good thing as women were restrictied in what was acceptable. there has been no widening of accpetable roles for men. When i mean acceptable in the case for men they are still directed away from areas such as healthcare and education as these areas are not percived to be manly enough. Also the intoduction of equal opportunity with quotas for the number of women/minorites mean that people who aren't  best qualified for the job are probably being given jobs. This doen't mean jobs for the boys or the glass ceiling is dead it is still alive  but its days are numbered.

There  are also rising perception that all men are one of the following; rapists,  child molesters, criminals, mass murders, susicide bombers,thugs , racists, sexist,incarnation of evil or other bad elements of society .  The other corrally is that women can do no  wrong as they are fighting against the eveil in the world and that means man. This is couple by the perception that  women are naturally more caring more intune with thier emotions and dont commit crimes.  I know this is sterotypical but if you don't believe it you can try this excersize think of  a man  and a woman for  each bad element of  society and for each good element of society  i will bet that you will come up of alot more men than women in the bad element and vise versa in the good element.

The last point in this post is that alot of men have learned helplessness. This phenomena is occurs when someone of an animal is punished for all efforts at everything regardless of what was actually done. This  was researched in the late 1930s i think but not completely sure. the result is depression and a lack of motivation fear of doing anything.

As this post is getting too long and you might have information overload i think i will leave it at this for now  i didn't even cover everything in sociology  and psychology that relates to this but  i had better give other people a chance to dugest what i have said and compose thier own thoughts and posts. if you are offended i appologise but this topic will contain highly contentious issues.

[spa 968]

I don't think it's actually anything to do with a lack of motivation or feelings of helplessness, but rather changed social context. There is simply less pressure today for young men to get their act together and more freedom for them to simply 'have a good time.' Before it was expected they would be out of the house and need to have a good job, any good job, to support the wife and family that they were also expected to have. Today these expectations have largely disappeared and individuals are left to decide what they want. Add to that the people are spending more time in school, sex is more readily available outside or marriage and family pressures have also changed (mom and dad would probably have given their son the boot more readily in the past) and presto you've got the trend of men staying home longer. People are taking longer to grow up in general, regardless of gender, it's just that men seem to have been more influenced by this trend than women perhaps because the most pressure was on them in the past.

[vidioman 21]

My uncle is a 31 (or is it 32?) year old neo nazi that lives in a tiny room (8x12) the branches off of my grandmothers room. He has only worked a total of 5 months in his life, and get's about 2,500$ in government disability (READ: Welfare) cheques from the government every MONTH because of it. His diet consists of 1.15 litres of Dr Pepper and french fries and ketchup every day (pas poutine, parce que les fran

[justanothersim86 83]

I agree with moganite's post. Just look at the media. The man is shown as a stupid, sex-driven, moron who screws everything up. I know its a joke. But after watching show, after show, after show, after show, after show of this, it gets to you. I'm all for womens rights and know of the unequal pay and such. But men aren't exempt from sexism.Thus the feeling that as a man your a worthless, evil causing, no-good-to-the-world person. Its not true, but it feels the world is telling you that everyday.

"50 people were killed today. Many of them women and children."

Yay! I'm expendable!

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: moganite I hope i don't get banned for this but this is what i see. Some parts of this post may  offend some peoples sensibilities it is meant to get you to think, if you are offended that is your own problem and if you want to take it up with me,PM me.

  quote>

 

I understand what you are saying but we have handled issues touchier than this one without crashing and burning.  I believe that, if we stick to "Talk about the issue, not each other", we could have an interesting discussion.

 first is the transition from a manufacturing  economy to a an information one in developed countries while production is sent overseas  this means that there are alot of people being laid off in  industries that  were previously very stable most of these industries are male dominated so this will mean men are hit harder with regards to emplyment.  The areas rising in the economy now don't depend on  on strength and depend on knowledge;  aesthetics. Most of the jobs in the inormation economy  are not highly physical.quote>

I think this is a very valid point.  and I think that men in their late 40s and 50s are having a difficult time with it.  Many of them perceive it as "too late" to be re-trained to do something else.  But why do the 20-somethings think it's too late?  That's what I'm not getting.

This coincides with the rise of feminism and the broadening of the roles for women  this is a good thing as women were restrictied in what was acceptable. there has been no widening of accpetable roles for men. When i mean acceptable in the case for men they are still directed away from areas such as healthcare and education as these areas are not percived to be manly enough. quote>

Directed away by whom?  Granted, not everyone can be a doctor but the health care field is begging for strong young men.  Some of the jobs are less than glamourous but they could certainly benefit from having young men do them.

As for education, I'll admit I was a bit surprised when my nephew was discharged from the army and announced he was going to get a degree in elementary education but I'm all for it.  I think that kids, both boys and girls, would benefit from having more male teachers.  For some kids, it's the only male role model they have.

There  are also rising perception that all men are one of the following; rapists,  child molesters, criminals, mass murders, susicide bombers,thugs , racists, sexist,incarnation of evil or other bad elements of society .  The other corrally is that women can do no  wrong as they are fighting against the eveil in the world and that means man. This is couple by the perception that  women are naturally more caring more intune with thier emotions and dont commit crimes.  I know this is sterotypical but if you don't believe it you can try this excersize think of  a man  and a woman for  each bad element of  society and for each good element of society  i will bet that you will come up of alot more men than women in the bad element and vise versa in the good element.quote>

Well, I know lots of men who aren't any of the above.  But, your point seems to be that young men are thinking "if the world thinks men are evil, why should I bother trying".  Did I get that right?

The last point in this post is that alot of men have learned helplessness. This phenomena is occurs when someone of an animal is punished for all efforts at everything regardless of what was actually done. This  was researched in the late 1930s i think but not completely sure. the result is depression and a lack of motivation fear of doing anything.quote>

Yes, that can be the result but is this happening on a wide-spread basis?

I'm not trying to offend anyone here.  I'm trying to understand what is going on.

[MrCinatit 30]

i lived with my parents until i was in my mid-20s, about a dozen years ago.

one of my coworkers is five years younger than me, in his early 30s. he still lives with his parents.

in both cases, we did so for similar reasons: financial.  simply, there are few affordable apartments in this very small, poor community - this was true for me even 10 years ago.

[moganite 4]

As i am only spaking from my own experince  i grew up in the 1980s in rural australia  which is about 50 years behind interms of expectations and  issuse such as sociology and sexism and discrimination yet i believe that everyone is has the same rights. comming to the city when i was 19  i fitted in ok in Newcastle but stood out like a sore thumb at home cause i wasn't into the male approved activities beer sport  machoism. Currently i am unemployed and recovering from mental illnes depression and social anxiety  i have studied at university level and nearly finished a degree in chemical or process engineering.

I think this is a very valid point.  and I think that men in their late 40s and 50s are having a difficult time with it.  Many of them perceive it as "too late" to be re-trained to do something else.  But why do the 20-somethings think it's too late?  That's what I'm not getting. quote>

One of the things about the transition to an information society is that  jobs will be lost or moved to another sector of the economy. Globally we have 2 huge economies with abundant supplies of cheap labour;   China and India.  These nations have lots of very poor people that will work at rates alot below the minimum wages of the developed countries. companies that wnat to keep their costs down move of shore  taking most of the jobs with them this applies to all areas of the economy even knowledge sectors as  you can employ 7 people with Phds in India for the same cost as  one in Australia or the US. The only jobs that remain are service industry and essential services. The only solution i can see is a globaly enforcable system of  Industrial relations that apllies only to transtational corporations to set the wages so that acros the globe everyone is paid enough.

Directed away by whom?  Granted, not everyone can be a doctor but the health care field is begging for strong young men.  Some of the jobs are less than glamourous but they could certainly benefit from having young men do them.

As for education, I'll admit I was a bit surprised when my nephew was discharged from the army and announced he was going to get a degree in elementary education but I'm all for it.  I think that kids, both boys and girls, would benefit from having more male teachers.  For some kids, it's the only male role model they have.quote>

In Australia we have an ofical rate of offical unemployment at 5 percent but  it is more like 20 to 30 percent. something like 30 percent of men my age (30) are unemployed. this situation hasn't occured since the great depression in the early thirties. In addition to this the government is importing workers from less "developed" countries that need thier own  nurses etc but they will not offer any training or severly  limit it to control costs this happens with  everything from bricklayers to doctors. The goverment  and corporations are unwilling to train new trades people and profesionals while they can lure them away from poorer countries as it is cheaper than  traing new ones. We don't have enough doctors teachers nurses  and the ones we do have are over worked.

The other thing is that there is downward pressure on wages by corporations /bosses to keep wages low so we can compete with indian or chinese workers. With the new IR reforms in australia wages will end up dropping by 30 percent and hours will increase by  30 percent all in the name of competing. the result is that we will have a 3 class system here ; the fat cats who own everything, the workers  who just  get by,  and the working poor and unemployed who cant't afford the nessecities of life (medicine shelter, food, education, paticipation in society). In other words we are going back to medieval economic divisions of wealth if this continues.

with regards to male role models the ones that tend to dominate are sporting heros  and fathers.  In our schools there may be one male teacher in the whole primary school (elementary) besides the principal but he doesn't really count most of the men i education end up being principals , as high school teachers or lecturers at uni. Most of the male role models are men who are strong in all areas of the life and in control. to loose control is to loose your masculinity. this applies in all area of life. thats just the way i see things

Well, I know lots of men who aren't any of the above.  But, your point seems to be that young men are thinking "if the world thinks men are evil, why should I bother trying".  Did I get that right?quote>

Yes some men are thinking just that not all are. You did what i was trying to say. One of the most potent example  i can think of is you islamic men who  are poor no job and no real chance at  being a contstructive  part of society, this happens where every you have large numbers of people locked out of improving thier own lives/prosperity. These vulnerable people are then the prey of religous fantaics, racists and any idea that promises hope. It happend with facism and comunism in the great depression (1929-1933) in the west and still happens where there are large numbers of very poor opressed people. The leaders of these organisations then use the men they recruited for thier own ends to cause strife raging from criminal acts all the way up to genocide. Ussually it is done by charismatic or powerful men, the power can either be physical, moral, financial, or mental.  As a result those who oppose them bear the brunt of this. Main examples are the Middle east now Eroupe in the 18-early century  to now.

Yes, that can be the result but is this happening on a wide-spread basis?quote>

This probably is happening on a large scale basis we are probably only seeing the begining of this. I know it has been happening on a small scale  for sometime just from my own experince.

 This also combines with annother phenomena  our obsession with youth women face it with regard to thier looks  and  men face it with being suscessful by a cetrain age . the proble is if you are neither of these  things the socetial belief is that you are worthless if you are not sucessful if you are a man  and if you are a woman you are worthless if you are ugly. it is a rather shallow way of looking at the world but there are alot of people like this. Increasingly there is pressure on both men and women to be both attractive and sucessful.  This is comming form the media and comercial interests.

While women have been "liberated" Men are still in a velvet prison and until both are free to follow thier own dreams without  fear etc both will be imprissoned and oppressed.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: moganite

Directed away by whom?  Granted, not everyone can be a doctor but the health care field is begging for strong young men.  Some of the jobs are less than glamourous but they could certainly benefit from having young men do them.

In Australia we have an ofical rate of offical unemployment at 5 percent but  it is more like 20 to 30 percent. something like 30 percent of men my age (30) are unemployed. this situation hasn't occured since the great depression in the early thirties. In addition to this the government is importing workers from less "developed" countries that need thier own  nurses etc but they will not offer any training or severly  limit it to control costs this happens with  everything from bricklayers to doctors. The goverment  and corporations are unwilling to train new trades people and profesionals while they can lure them away from poorer countries as it is cheaper than  traing new ones. We don't have enough doctors teachers nurses  and the ones we do have are over worked.

quote>

Since iv had health problems most of my life i have noticed the # of foriegn born doctor in US hospitols has skyrocketed, moslty Indian/pakastani doctors.

Does india/pakistan have free eduaction for those that want t o become medical doctors?if so, that would be part of the probelm, a glut of qualiifed  people who will work for much much less then some american graduate who has $100K +in medical school  bills to pay.

As for the unemployment rate the US is currently around 7%. but that nubmber is very skewed.

as the U S Govt only counts those who draw unemployment as unemployed. When the unemployment runs out they dont count them any more weather or not thay have found a job or not. And then if you get fired as apposed to laid off you cannot claime unemployment insurace, whice a lot of companys do now if they are only looking to shave a few people fromthier ranks they will find any excuse to fire them instead dismissing them so they dont have to pay the unemployment or an acrued vacation/sick days.

 

[hamsterTK 93]

perhaps a little bit of the blame could rest with the fact nowadays you can have a sexual relationship and their isnt any pressure to get married. When at one time to really get involved you had to get married, and of course you cant be married and live with mom and dad,  now you can stay at home and work at walmart and eat mcdonalds and stay up till 4 am watcing adult swim on cartoon network and just basically rot, while your parents have already payed off the house, etc, and yet you still can go out and have sex and whatever with having to be secretive. Not saying living with mom and dad makes you a chick magnet, but you know...

As for manly jobs, i think its not that all of them are gone, its just that the middle class ones that dont require a college degree arent as common. Being an Engineer is a somewhat manly job, but its also complicated and involves lots of math. Being a construction worker is a manly job but its hard work and it doesnt pay that great.

Personally, now this is just my opinion okay, you shouldnt have to comment about this.what it is it is that our economy cannot stay rich and powerful if we do not actually manufacture anything in this country. A service industry will not cut it. For the time being asia could not survive without us to buy their goods, but as our economy wanes theirs will grow, and soon they will be self sufficient. Its like they are parasites who are sucking the life out of us.Sure, now we are dependent on one another but soon it will be time for the tick to detach itself and we will be left with the lyme disease. I am tired of all the lies we are told. When they say outsourcing helps the economy they are lying to us. When they sort of hint that people who oppose outsourcing are not thinking clearly, they are lying. Sure, in the short term its making these people rich. Its like we are stuck on a bullet train on the fast track to hades, and its our own bussinesspeople in the cab. You feel sort of helpless when you think about the future of your country.

[Meg 368]

The global economy is an interesting issue, no doubt.  I think it has implications that many people haven't thought through.

But men and women both have to deal with the global economy.  Why is one group reacting differently from the other?  This is what I'm not understanding.

I think it would be interesting to hear from more guys, aged 22 to 34, who are living with their parents.  I would like to be able to understand where their heads are at.

On one hand, this trend makes some kind of sense.  Historically, the nuclear family is a recent invention; the extended family was more common.  Maybe what we are seeing is a return to the extended family.   But that doesn't explain why more young women than young men are going out on their own.

[hamsterTK 93]

On one hand, this trend makes some kind of sense.  Historically, the nuclear family is a recent invention; the extended family was more common.  Maybe what we are seeing is a return to the extended family.   But that doesn't explain why more young women than young men are going out on their own.quote>

That is a really interesting point you got their

[Joesocwork 4]

The studies used at my job show that most children don't "leave the nest" or at least become reasonably self-sufficient until age 26.  That's big a factor when my field discusses about what is reasonable for a youth to "transition out".   Being able to build and maintain healthy reciprocal relationships is usually the biggest key for success.

Of course, even though I've been a family man for quite some time I still haven't quite grown up yet myself anyway!

[ginchael 1]

As a young male about to head off to college, this topic worries me.  My goal is to not move back with my parents when I am done with school, but I'm afraid that I won't be able to meet it.  It's not that I want to move back in after college...

Maybe what it really has to do with is that the boys are afraid to go out into the real world, although none of them will admit it.  It's kind of scary to go through that change...I know I'm scared of moving 9 hours away for college--its not the furthest I've been away from my parents, but its the longest.  After that, I need to get a full time job, pay my own bills, and move up.  I don't know what it's like to work all day--I work after school, but school work always is more important than work work.  After college, though, will be the first time that role is reversed.  Adulthood is the unknown.

Has anyone ever read the book or seen the movie Fight Club?  It's a good psychological thiller, but it also offers some interesting insights into the modern male psyche.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek The global economy is an interesting issue, no doubt.  I think it has implications that many people haven't thought through.

But men and women both have to deal with the global economy.  Why is one group reacting differently from the other?  This is what I'm not understanding.

I think it would be interesting to hear from more guys, aged 22 to 34, who are living with their parents.  I would like to be able to understand where their heads are at.

On one hand, this trend makes some kind of sense.  Historically, the nuclear family is a recent invention; the extended family was more common.  Maybe what we are seeing is a return to the extended family.   But that doesn't explain why more young women than young men are going out on their own.quote>

 

I may not be in the 22-34 year age range, but I do have some thoughts on the subject (although they might seem strange).  No offense to anyone who works in the educational departments, but the public school system isn't turning out quality education.  I've been fortunate enough to have a top-notch education and I've had a relatively ambitious plan for my future.  (SkiGeek, you and I have talked about my interest in ICE as my profession.)

Also, there has been a return to more conservative values among Gen X and the like.  It may be possible that this is part of that return.  If my sister is any indication, a lot of young women don't really want to be around their family much after high school.

[brancra 1,060]

I agree with morganite's post with this phenomenon in relation to the media. In recent years especially,  men are seen lazy, muscle-bound, sex-driven creatures that lack purposes. Of course, that's bound to wear off on their viewers. 

Secondly, we have been tod that women are the new "men", so to speak. As women excell in careers, often raising families at the same time, they set a level of achievement that makes many men resentful, unfortunately. It's not that what women do is a bad thing, but their level of excellence has scared off some of the competition. 

Thirdly, as the youngest child, I have watched my brothers struggle with great debts as they go through collegiate education, and have little to show for it. My oldest brother decided that it was more worthwhile to go into the military to avoid that debt. As I'm about to enter college, I wonder if my chosen major will be worthwhile to me even if it something I love. Nobody wants to be 30 years old and working as a convienience store clerk or cashier at a McDonald's, and have thousands of dlooars in debt hanging over their head from a college education that didn't pay off as they hoped.

It's a very intimidating situation to many men, and they are hesitent to pursue independence in our competitive, challenging world.

[hym 358]

Secondly, we have been tod that women are the new "men", so to speak. As women excell in careers, often raising families at the same time, they set a level of achievement that makes many men resentful, unfortunately. It's not that what women do is a bad thing, but their level of excellence has scared off some of the competition. 

quote>

 

I'll agree with that.  No offense, but women are trying to fill the roles that men have occupied for hundreds of years and to a certain extent, men are letting them take it because they (forgive me if I offend anyone here, but I speak from personal experience) have found that it's better to suck up and agree with a women than argue with her (I've seen and heard of plenty of guys getting burned by arguing with a women they know).

[Joesocwork 4]

Originally posted by: hym

Secondly, we have been tod that women are the new "men", so to speak. As women excell in careers, often raising families at the same time, they set a level of achievement that makes many men resentful, unfortunately. It's not that what women do is a bad thing, but their level of excellence has scared off some of the competition. 

quote>

 

I'll agree with that.  No offense, but women are trying to fill the roles that men have occupied for hundreds of years and to a certain extent, men are letting them take it because they (forgive me if I offend anyone here, but I speak from personal experience) have found that it's better to suck up and agree with a women than argue with her (I've seen and heard of plenty of guying getting burned by arguing with a women they know).quote>

 

That's actually also the key to a sucessful marriage!    Of course many of us have found that two paychecks are better than one too.

[moganite 4]

The thing with the Global economy is we are making a transition form industrial to a high tech  economy . The only stable jobs are those involed in selling stuff,  providing services and goods that everyone needs.

Manufacturing is increasinly automated even in China and India that   has been  a male dominated  part of the economy . That is chaning as women are taking up more roles/competing sufessfuly in that area , this is a good thing. part of this reaons is that machines/robots take the heavy physical elements out of the job. the result is much more intense competion for thos remaining ang with equal opportunity laws forcing companies to increase the number of women at all levels of  a company. While I am for equal opportunity I don't think quotas on  the number of employees of a specific gender are  the way to go.  I have also noticed that it applies only in male dominated areas of the economy for women. No such laws for men entering a female dominated workplace.

As for large numbers of jobs going to places where it is chaper to hire people until the economies of  India and China mature and the wages are similar to the west  there will be alot of pressure on wages in the western nations.  Also these nations recently attained the level of development required  for high tech manufacturing which is also located there increasingly.  Once these economies are mature low skilled jobs willl  be moved out af there in to africa and latin america possibly the middle east. Remember there are a billion people living on just 1 $ US per day or less. Such extreme poverty is often fatal.

Originally posted by: hym

Secondly, we have been tod that women are the new "men", so to speak. As women excell in careers, often raising families at the same time, they set a level of achievement that makes many men resentful, unfortunately. It's not that what women do is a bad thing, but their level of excellence has scared off some of the competition. 

quote>

 

I'll agree with that.  No offense, but women are trying to fill the roles that men have occupied for hundreds of years and to a certain extent, men are letting them take it because they (forgive me if I offend anyone here, but I speak from personal experience) have found that it's better to suck up and agree with a women than argue with her (I've seen and heard of plenty of guys getting burned by arguing with a women they know).quote>

As i am often extremely stubborn that might explain some of my difficulties with the opposite sex. lol

So the choces for men are be a doormat or  be the looser in a psychological war you can't win cause the law /authourites assume male guilt more often than not.  That isn't to say that there are no prejudices the  other way, they are still there if you know were to look.

[Screwballl 196]

This falls into several categories. The baby boomers... they taught their children that war is bad and babied them well into their early 20s so bad that they don't want to go out in the real world. Now they have children of their own and have taken it one step further with their kids. They were never spanked or chastized for their wrongdoings at home but were nothing more than a lazy kid out in society. Their parents or the government paid for their lives so they see no need to do anything but continue the system abuse. They were also taught to only go for what you want and working up to it is not accpetable. They have this expectation that some day a guy will magically appear at the door with their dream job of video game tester or something equally lazy. Their parents embedded this. Many of the parents see it as no problem with their kids living at home at age 30 because they maintain the control over that child and it is better to maintain tradition than to force change.

The other side of the sword is that unless you work at McDonalds, a large portion of jobs nowadays require some sort of degree and even entry level positions are reserved for those that have finished some college or have a degree. This is part of the problem I am having in my life. I was out on my own at 16 and been working fulltime ever since. Because I have had to work for my life, I have not had a chance to go to college nor the money to do so. At almost 30 now, I have a mortgage, car payment, 2 SUV gas tanks to fill, a daughter, a wife and no way to go up from where I am at.

So those of us wanting to go up are held down and those not wanting to go anywhere expect to be elevated to a manager job as soon as he steps into a building for an interview. These kids have been taught that it is not ok to settle for second best, wait until first best comes along. They expect first best and if it doesn't come they get discouraged easily and sit idle and lazy.

For women, all they have to do is pull the "sex" card and they have the job. Same with minorities, just pull the "race card" and they have the job. Even to this day the stereotype and expectation is still very strong. A white boy without a job is lazy but a black boy eithout a job is oppressed. A woman without a job is expected to be a housewife and a woman with a job got it because of her gender. Reguardless of how true this really is, it is the perception that is seen by most still to this day.

With these men the saying goes: Give a man to fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he expects you to catch it for him.

[Micah 16]

Wow, this thread really has me thinking. It seems like I'm too lazy to do any extra high school activities, and none of my teachers understand why I don't do anything like TAPPS or Nationals (which is hosted in Tulsa) or anything such as those because I'm have the highest grades in all of my high school. They keep telling me,"You're lowest grade is a 98. You should go to special school events to get extra credits because it will look really good on our college r

[Duke87 1,070]

I think another issue is that today there are a lot more distractions out there. A lot more things that men would rather be doing thatn getting a job and moving out and whatnot. After all, 20 years a go, there was no internet, video games were only a small industry, almost no one had a computer at home, many people still didn't have cable TV, etc.

But then there's also the job market issue. There are more people graduating from college than jobs available which require the degrees they've earned. So you end up with a lot of guys with college degrees working at Burger King or whatever. Those are the jobs which are available. The reasons you don't see this hapenning with women so much are twofold: first, many women go for majors which don't have much real world use: English, Liberal Arts, etc. After college, they all either get a job in a less "demeaning" position, so to speak, or get married and go off and be supported by their husbands. Second, those that do go for more useful degrees get jobs, partially due to being more qualified (a lot of women coming out of college seem to have better resumés than the men), but sometimes just due to the gender factor.

Of course, there are still a number of women living at home who opted not to go to college. They almost always have jobs, though, whereas the guys in this position may not.

And then there's the real estate issue. I don't know what the deal is elsewhere, but in the New York area the price of real estate has gotten rediculous, having tripled or more in the past 10 years. One big reason for this is a lack of new construction. In the city itself, there really isn't anywhere you can build something without first knocking something down. And since no one is going to sell their 10-story buiding to someone intending to replace it with a 30-story-one, the number of appartments is mostly the same, while the number of people has gone up. Outside the city, where there are still empty lots, there has been a lot of new construction in the past 10 years. But, seeing as it's the suburbs, these are all middle or high income apartments. Nobody's building any low income apartments since no one wants to build a slum, and even of they were wiling, the other residents of the neighborhood would complain a lot and not let it happen. Way too many people these days seem to always want to keep the status quo no matter what. This is why nothing new ever gets built.

This resistance to change is aso why many guys don't want to move out. They're too used to living with their parents, and don't want to change that. For women, getting your own apartment and getting a job is 'exciting'. For men, excitement generally seems to involve having sex, setting stuff on fire, consuming large quantities of alcohol, or some combination of the three. Young men seem to give in to their ego a lot more than young women.

[moganite 4]

Originally posted by: Screwballl This falls into several categories. The baby boomers... they taught their children that war is bad and babied them well into their early 20s so bad that they don't want to go out in the real world. Now they have children of their own and have taken it one step further with their kids. They were never spanked or chastized for their wrongdoings at home but were nothing more than a lazy kid out in society. Their parents or the government paid for their lives so they see no need to do anything but continue the system abuse. They were also taught to only go for what you want and working up to it is not accpetable. They have this expectation that some day a guy will magically appear at the door with their dream job of video game tester or something equally lazy. Their parents embedded this. Many of the parents see it as no problem with their kids living at home at age 30 because they maintain the control over that child and it is better to maintain tradition than to force change.

The other side of the sword is that unless you work at McDonalds, a large portion of jobs nowadays require some sort of degree and even entry level positions are reserved for those that have finished some college or have a degree. This is part of the problem I am having in my life. I was out on my own at 16 and been working fulltime ever since. Because I have had to work for my life, I have not had a chance to go to college nor the money to do so. At almost 30 now, I have a mortgage, car payment, 2 SUV gas tanks to fill, a daughter, a wife and no way to go up from where I am at.

So those of us wanting to go up are held down and those not wanting to go anywhere expect to be elevated to a manager job as soon as he steps into a building for an interview. These kids have been taught that it is not ok to settle for second best, wait until first best comes along. They expect first best and if it doesn't come they get discouraged easily and sit idle and lazy.

For women, all they have to do is pull the "sex" card and they have the job. Same with minorities, just pull the "race card" and they have the job. Even to this day the stereotype and expectation is still very strong. A white boy without a job is lazy but a black boy eithout a job is oppressed. A woman without a job is expected to be a housewife and a woman with a job got it because of her gender. Reguardless of how true this really is, it is the perception that is seen by most still to this day.

With these men the saying goes: Give a man to fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he expects you to catch it for him.quote>

i will try to adress this as best i can

first parragraph

 i thought that was started on the baby boomers by thier parents and second it is the natural inclination of the parents to want the best  of thier kids and protect them and this tendency will increase the fewer kids parents have. in china you have the little emperor sydrome which is very similar  cuase of the one child policy that has been enforced in comunist china to control population growth. Western parents don't want their kids to take any risks / do aything dangerous and are driven averywhere by thier parents one term that is bandied around is the bubble wrap generation. The result is kids and later adults who don't know haw to handle the real world.

The other thing I saw in you post is the wanting the best job early. Ussually that is what the parents want for the kid ridiculous success.  Why, because parents put/push their expectations/hopes/dreams on thier kids. This results in the kids being pushed by the parents and motivated by the parents without the child learning how to do this themselves. This would also applie to obstacles that are in the way of the objective. Parental pressure is definetly part of the problem. Annother aspect of the problem is that you are expected to be sucessful by the time you are 25 that is to have a house, a high paying job, an education, and a family mostly cause this is  what happened with our parents. of course it was easier to get jobs and eduaction was free in Australia for about a decade at the tertiary level and guess who took advantage of it. Mostly the boomers maried by 25  or so and had kids a bit later.

With kids being pushed /motivated by parents is it any wonder they did not learn how to motivate themselves. Personally i have no trouble with motivation from external sources but am hopless motivating my self i am working on that and it is very much more difficult if you have issuse such as depression and socai anxiety to contend with.

Your other point i would agree with it

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This is a fascinating discussion.  I have dropped out of the work force all together as I am now retired.

It is painful to see that we are, in fact, in another industrial revolution.  Production line manufacturing in North America has nearly ended due to several causes. 

The principal cause is that labour has priced itself out of the market in the global village.  It is now possible to source workforce in venues that have lower expectations and any prudent business will go there.

Next is the higher expectations of parents for their children.  It is no longer considered appropriate that a child should work in the same line as his parents.  Progeny are expected to seek occupations at a higher level.  Every parent wants his kids to do better than he has.  Sometimes this is called greed, but that leads to a discussion of ethics which is surely off topic here.

Information technology has created the global village.  At the same time, jobs in IT, which were plentiful lin the 1960-1990 time frame, have now become specialized and minimal.  IT has automated itself out of many jobs.  Programmers no longer work for companies writing in-house applications.  They work for a small number of software houses, possibly off-shore.  Most businesses these days find all the necessary applications as packages.

As the price of computer hardware has dropped, more and more of the components have become throw-away.  It is cheaper to replace a unit than to repair it because of the cost of labour.

So, welcome to the twenty-first century and the second industrial revolution.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: moganite

i will try to adress this as best i can 

first parragraph

 i thought that was started on the baby boomers by thier parents and second it is the natural inclination of the parents to want the best  of thier kids and protect them and this tendency will increase the fewer kids parents have. in china you have the little emperor sydrome which is very similar  cuase of the one child policy that has been enforced in comunist china to control population growth. Western parents don't want their kids to take any risks / do aything dangerous and are driven averywhere by thier parents one term that is bandied around is the bubble wrap generation. The result is kids and later adults who don't know haw to handle the real world.

Your other point i would agree with itquote>

 

The Bubble wrap generation i like that name.

Mostly becuase its true. When i was a kid if i wanted to go to anyplce i went, walked  or rode a bike but with the understanding i had to be back at a certian time. We thought nothing of rideing 3-4 miles to school  on our bikes or to friends house or where ever( with out helmets and pads and such). I remember rideng my my bike to little league practice all the time with my equpiment in a backpack.

Do we live in a safer world now that parents take thier kids everywere or   when we do this are we raising kids who dont know how to cope

with out help?

[Skink000 0]

Hi Ski,

I have a question about the article. It does not seam to recognize that many young women, last I new, were getting married and leaving the nest. To say  "And when you come back three or four years later, you'll find that in most cases those young women have achieved their goal, or something like it. They've earned that degree. They've opened their business." and not figure in those that have wed really crimps the validity of the statement.

Any ideas? 

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Skink000 Hi Ski,

I have a question about the article. It does not seam to recognize that many young women, last I new, were getting married and leaving the nest. To say  "And when you come back three or four years later, you'll find that in most cases those young women have achieved their goal, or something like it. They've earned that degree. They've opened their business." and not figure in those that have wed really crimps the validity of the statement.

Any ideas? quote>

 

Well, some married women have that degree and/or a business and some don't and, yeah, they did gloss over that..  On some level, I think it's one of those articles that raises more questions than it answers, in hopes of getting people to buy the book.

[Skink000 0]

Hi Ski,

I do not wish to diminish the topic in any way, I find it very interesting and important. In college I was subjected to 3 levels of statistics and it effected how I look at such things, sort of like the way radiation would. 
She also fails to mention people with disabilities that would also be a statistical subset of the population. She must not teach at a research university.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Skink000

Hi Ski,

I do not wish to diminish the topic in any way, I find it very interesting and important. In college I was subjected to 3 levels of statistics and it effected how I look at such things, sort of like the way radiation would. 

She also fails to mention people with disabilities that would also be a statistical subset of the population. She must not teach at a research university.

quote>

 

No, according to the article, it  (and not yet published book) are by "Leonard Sax, a family physician and psychologist in Montgomery County" .  That would be the Montgomery County in Maryland that is a suburb of Washington, DC.   I don't know what research data he is using.