Gmax BAT and other 3D modeling programs

[AP 3,588]

Hi everyone,

I opened this thread because I have a few interface questions for gmax BAT and possible other 3D modeling programms. I saw that there is a number of posts around this topic (some of them rather old) and I still have a few questions left.

This is where I stand:

Currently I use gmaxBAT to create and render my models. As far as I understood I always need to use gmaxBAT as the final programm to render because this is how a 3D model is transformed into an sc4model. (please correct me here if I am wrong).

I also saw there is also BAT4Max, which I understood is a plugin for 3dsMAX. What does that do? Can that not render and save to sc4model-files?

I wanted to look into more advanced programs than gmax since it is rather old, not supported and tends to crash. On the other hand it is free and still quite all right. (originally I am used to work with autoCAD and Inventor)

I would just like to have the ability to save in different file-types than .gmax.  My understanding is that I would use 3dsMAX to create 3D models, save them as *.3ds and then open them with gmaxBAT and render them. However this seems not to be the case. I downloaded a 3ds-Model and tried that. gmax just shows an error message when I try to open the file.

So my general request would be that someone explains the process to me in a very detailed way (possibly with some screenshots as well):

How do I model in 3dsMAX and render in gmaxBAT?

 

[rsc204 21,808]

You are right that SC4BAT is a required part of the export process, even if you are using 3DS Max and BAT4Max. However the part that SC4BAT handles is generating or rendering the LOD, SC4 Models are not 3D models, instead they are pre-rendered 2D textures 'wallpapered' onto a 3D shell (LOD). The key benefits of using the full power of 3DS Max is that not only can it create much higher quality textures, but it also has a number of powerful features that gMax lacks. On the flip side it's expensive and BAT4Max has not been updated to work with newer versions, a problem because you won't be easily able to legitimately get hold of anything but the latest versions of 3DS Max. Essentially you need a copy that supports the Mental Ray renderer, because the BAT4Max scripts were written with that in mind. Even for the last supported versions, you may need modified scripts before they will export SC4 Textures without throwing up errors. See here for more details about all that.

1 hour ago, AP said:

I would just like to have the ability to save in different file-types than .gmax.  My understanding is that I would use 3dsMAX to create 3D models, save them as *.3ds and then open them with gmaxBAT and render them. However this seems not to be the case. I downloaded a 3ds-Model and tried that. gmax just shows an error message when I try to open the file.

.3DS is a file format that can be worked with by multiple applications, it's one of the few types you can "import" into gMax. However, a .3DS file created in a vastly newer version of 3DS Max may not open in such an old application as gMax. You can't simply use open, you must import such files so perhaps that's the problem here though?

That said, BAT4Max is the 'bridge' between 3DS Max and SC4BAT, once correctly installed, you'll have a new set of options similar to those SC4BAT adds to gMax. Afterall, SC4BAT is simply a set of scripts that allow gMax to export models in a format SC4 can use. With those in place the export process is as outlined in the documentation of BAT4Max:

• Export LOD (as .3DS File)
• Open SC4BAT, import this file into a new file, then export it, creating the .SC4Model file
• Go back to 3DS Max, where you can select the newly created .SC4Model file and export a set of textures for your model
  Note you will need to export Day/Nite renders separately if you want your model to light up at night.

[AP 3,588]

Thanks for the summary @rsc204 ! The tip to import the 3ds file was what I missed. So here is what I did so far:

• downloaded a 3ds model (this step simulates me having access to 3dsMAX, saving (or I guess you mentioned exporting) my model as *.3ds)
• importet it with gmaxBAT (there were a few errors that I had to skip, I think I hit retry multiple times and it magically worked at some point) (the textures are lost)

• Re-fit LOD's (under BAT - Parameters) and exported it with BAT

If I understood you correctly I now would have to open the sc4model that gmaxBAT rendered with 3dsMAX (impressive that would work, is that the magic of BAT4max?) and apply textures?

My understanding is (like you said) that the sc4model is just a bunch of rendered pictures glued on a cube that are created for the 4 views and zoom levels? so I would be texturing 4 2D pictures?

It would be really cool to see a few screenshots to document this process. Maybe you or @Barroco Hispano could provide a few?

 

[Barroco Hispano 26,704]

@AP  The only thing I use GMAX for is to export the LODs, then in 3DsMax I select the created file and render the model with 3DsMax. BAT4MAX script Creates the image, then splits it into pieces, creates the fshs, and then inserts it into the .sc4model.

You will always need GMAX to export the LODs and 3DsMax 2012 or 2017 to export the images.

Export LODs = Export LODs to GMAX.

Select Target Model = Select .sc4model file created with GMAX

Day Export = Render images, split, insert, etc.

[art128 4,618]

9 hours ago, AP said:

downloaded a 3ds model (this step simulates me having access to 3dsMAX, saving (or I guess you mentioned exporting) my model as *.3ds)

...

If I understood you correctly I now would have to open the sc4model that gmaxBAT rendered with 3dsMAX (impressive that would work, is that the magic of BAT4max?) and apply textures?

My understanding is (like you said) that the sc4model is just a bunch of rendered pictures glued on a cube that are created for the 4 views and zoom levels? so I would be texturing 4 2D pictures?

 

Not quite.

To put it simply:

Gmax is a tuned down free version of 3dsmax. It has less features and is less powerful.

BAT4MAX is to 3dsmax what SC4BAT is to Gmax. It's a script (plugin if you want) that allows user to export their models in the correct angles and file format for SC4.

You can model either using gmax or 3dsmax, but the latter is IMO better. Texturing your model is better done in 3dsmax simply because you can a much more powerful engine and options at your disposal. Can you make some nice stuff with Gmax? Sure. But it will never be as good as 3dsmax made BATs.

For exemple this is how I (and I assume a lot others) do it:

-Make or import model in 3dsmax

-texture and light it in 3dsmax

-Create custom LODs in 3dsmax

-In the BAT4MAX menu, hit export LODs, this will export the freshly created LODs into a .3ds file in the GMAX/BAT directory.

-Open SC4BAT (GMAX) and import the above file (yourmodelname.3ds)

-Export the LOD (this will create the .SC4Model file in your plugin folder, but this file will be empty)

-go back to 3dsmax, in BAT4MAX menu hit "select target model"

-Select the .SC4Model file created by SC4BAT

-Setup either day or night render

-Hit the corresponding export (day or  night) button

 

Technically you are texturing your 3D model directly, whether you use gmax or 3dsmax. The main difference apart from the rendering process, is that 3dsmax as I said earlier gives you better and more powerful tools to play with.

All the rest is left to either SC4BAT or BAT4MAX to setup the camera in the correct SC4 angles, make the renders and apply those renders to the LOD (like rsc said, it simply applies the texture to the LODs)

 

The only issue nowadays is getting 3DSMAX. You can get a free education version from Autodesk, which is a good gesture from them... But they only offer the recent versions. The recent versions are either not compatible with BAT4MAX or a pain in the bum to make them work. This is because Autodesk changed the default renderer on the latest versions and the ST member (Simfox) who made the BAT4MAX Script and updated it is not active anymore.

[AP 3,588]

@art128 thanks for clarifying! and thank you @Barroco Hispano for the screenshot.

so if I understood correctly GMAX is only used to export the blank LODs (what does LOD stand for by the way?) and create an sc4model-file. Then BAT4MAX uses this sc4model and renders the model as 2D pictures on each side of the LOD and "fills" the sc4model-file -- so the actual rendering is happening out of 3dsMAX?

 

[mattb325 28,880]

49 minutes ago, AP said:

(what does LOD stand for by the way?)

Level Of Detail

[AP 3,588]

I am currently looking into a variety of other 3D modeling programs and was looking for some advice about the interfaces (file conversions) and some of you might know.

1. Is it possible to export my .gmax models into a format any other program can import? GMAX has the build in option to export as .P3D and I found no program that is able to import that, such a shame. Does anyone know a program to import .gmax or .P3D?

2. I wouldn't mind working in a more modern (if possible freeware) 3D modeling program with a file format that can transfer into .3ds (or any other format that GMAX is able to import). It seems GMAX can import: .3DS, .PRJ, .DXF, .SHP

This has two simple reasons: I became quite advanced in GMAX by spending days and days in the program and it feels like kind of a waste not to learn these skills in a more up to date program. And secondly I would like to be able to repurpose the models that I create, which means I need a file format that can be im- and exported into other programs. Of course 3dsMAX would be the simple solution and I would love to have a license, however it is not in the price range that I am willing to spend on this hobby

From  @davide1983it 's explanation I found out that SketchUp seems to be able to export as .3ds so that might be an option (although it is not freeware). I was hoping to find a shared format with blender, which would seem like a great freeware tool to work with, but blender does not share an interface with GMAX.

Does anyone know a modern affordable 3d modeling program that can export in a file format usable by GMAX (maybe even with another im-port export step through an intermediate program/format)?

[rsc204 21,808]

As it stands right now, there is no way to export SC4 Models without using either BAT4Max (with 3DS Max) and/or SC4 BAT during the process. This is because these scripts are key to exporting the rather specialised Isometric models that SC4 uses, specifically creating the 20 (or more) textures every SC4 Model needs.

A 3D model is rendered in-game in real time, it can be rotated, moved and seen from any angle, hence it needs to be fully 3D. But because SC4's models will only ever be seen from one of 5 fixed zoom levels and 4 fixed rotations, they don't need to be 3D, meaning only a fraction of the resources are required to display them. 3D modelling applications are setup to render fully 3D models however, whilst they can all render the textures, it requires the same setup as SC4 BAT's scripts to actually do it. You can write scripts for any 3D Modelling program that supports such, that will mirror what these scripts do, after all that's exactly what the BAT4Max scripts have done. But at this present time no such scripts exist for any other application, so that makes using another application kinda redundant, because one way or another you'll be rendering textures in 3DS Max or gMax.

So for example, whilst you can model in SketchUp, you can't render anything in the application, instead you must export the model to 3DS Max to render it. The two programs differ greatly in some areas and as a result you then have to do more work, converting the model, to ensure it exports correctly in 3DS Max. Frankly that's daft IMO, surely you might just as well learn 3DS Max better and model there in the first place.

Blender is the de-facto open source 3D Modeller, but again at this time we don't have a set of functioning scripts for exporting SC4 compatible models. So once more you are left with having to import any scenes into 3DS Max or SC4 BAT before exporting them. Vortext and some others over on SC4D were working on creating such scripts for Blender, however the last post was a while ago and so it's not certain if such a tool will ever be available.

One useful thing about 3DS Max is that it works very much like an expanded version of gMax, which means you don't have to learn how to use it from scratch. Both SketchUp and Blender work completely differently and are likely to require a lot more effort to learn how to use. You mention cost as a factor, honestly I can't imagine anyone around here personally paid for 3DS Max to be able to make SC4 models as a hobby, the cost is just too high, especially now as SAAS it comes with an annual fee. Most people have taken advantage of a free student licence to get a copy of 3DS Max, but just as with paying the subscription, you can't install any version of 3DS Max and stick with it. At most you will be offered the most recent 2-3 versions and when you renew the licence, the versions you previously used may no longer be an option. Combine that with the fact that the BAT4Max scripts only work up to 3DS Max 2018 (or those still supporting Mental Ray) and there is a real problem brewing for modellers around here. Sadly there isn't a whole lot of flexibility here. One hail mary is to try and find a 2nd hand copy of a proper retail version of 3DS Max, that way you can have access to a working version for as long as you want. But getting Autodesk to recognise the licence transfer requires jumping through hoops and is far from guaranteed, in parts of the world you may not even be able to do this either. In Europe there was a big legal case surrounding such software licence reselling that forced companies like Autodesk to allow it. All good and well, but try actually finding one, it is anything but easy and if you do, it doesn't come cheap either.

[AP 3,588]

Thanks for the reply @rsc204 , however it did not quite get to the core of what I was wondering about. I completely understand that gmax (or 3dsMAX with BAT4MAX in combination with GMAX) with B.A.T. and the render script is always the last step in the chain to get to an sc4MODEL-file. I am not lookinig for an alternative to that. So I am not looking for a render-script for any other 3d program.

I am looking for a 3d modling program or converter that shares export and import file-types of gmax compatible file-types. In an ideal world I could export a model in blender as .3ds and import it in GMAX to render it for sc4. Additionally, I would be able to use blender to import a .gmax file. But blender does not have this interface to .3ds or .gmax.

So my two main questions from above are still:

1. Does anyone know a program to import .gmax or .P3D? (which are the two output formats GMAX can produce)

2. Does anyone know a modern affordable 3d modeling program that can export in a file format usable by GMAX (maybe even with another import/export step through an intermediate program/format)?

And with the points you mentioned above in mind, these two questions will become more and more pressing, since 3dsMAX licences are going to run out and v2018 versions of 3dsMAX being available will become less and less. Unless everybody starts modeling in gmax again.

 

[Odainsaker 2,134]

Gmax was deliberately designed to be limited in what it can do and output, with *.gmax files being proprietary and usable pretty much only by Gmax.  There are plugins that are supposed to allow Gmax to instead directly export the widely used *.3ds and *.obj file types, but I don't recall having ever had much success using them.  However, there are workarounds using other official game pack plugins.  

The most common workaround is to download and install an MD3 exporter plugin into Gmax to export *.md3 files, which were meant for the official Tempest game pack for the Quake III modding community.  A companion MD3 import plugin would then need to be installed into the alternative 3D modeling program you wish to use (I know MD3 importers exist for versions of 3ds MAx and Blender), or a converter program like Deep Explorer to further create a more universal *.obj file out of the *.md3 file.  I recall that object names, hierarchies, materials, or even vertex precision may not entirely survive the MD3 route.

Another method is to use a 3D listening utility, which captures the data of an opened 3D model and creates a maxscript file of the 3D information that can be used to rebuild the model in 3ds Max.  These were particularly made and used by the FlightSim modding community, and I have successfully used FFG ("Forward From Gmax") to move models from Gmax into 3ds Max in a way that preserves object names, hierarchies, and materials.

Google suggests there are 3D listening utilities that capture from Gmax to create *.obj files, and even *.md5 file export and import plugins for Gmax and 3ds Max, but I am not really familiar with these routes.

Gmax and 3ds Max are supposed to natively be able to directly import *.3ds files, but I suspect success may be dependent on the file size, polygon count, complexity, and vintage of the 3DS version, with newer files not always cooperating with older importers.  Blender and SketchUp are the most popular alternatives to Gmax and 3ds Max for purposes of BATting, with the struggle being to get Blender or SketchUp to export *.3ds, *.obj, or even Collada *.dae files that can then be imported by Gmax or 3ds Max.  Materials and normals may go haywire when doing this.

[AP 3,588]

19 hours ago, Odainsaker said:

The most common workaround is to download and install an MD3 exporter plugin into Gmax to export *.md3 files, which were meant for the official Tempest game pack for the Quake III modding community.  A companion MD3 import plugin would then need to be installed into the alternative 3D modeling program you wish to use (I know MD3 importers exist for versions of 3ds MAx and Blender), or a converter program like Deep Explorer to further create a more universal *.obj file out of the *.md3 file.  I recall that object names, hierarchies, materials, or even vertex precision may not entirely survive the MD3 route.

Another method is to use a 3D listening utility, which captures the data of an opened 3D model and creates a maxscript file of the 3D information that can be used to rebuild the model in 3ds Max.  These were particularly made and used by the FlightSim modding community, and I have successfully used FFG ("Forward From Gmax") to move models from Gmax into 3ds Max in a way that preserves object names, hierarchies, and materials.

This is such great news, thanks for your reply, this hint was exactly what I was looking for!

The route using MD3 sounds as interesting as using the 3D listener! I found the following MD3 export plugin for gmax: https://jkhub.org/files/file/2-gmax-md3-exporter/ of course loosing some detail is not ideal but I guess it is worth a try. Can you recall the best version or where to get it from ideally?

I will try the listerner method tonight (thanks for including the link)! Very exciting! I hope I can get some of my models into a more universal format!

In terms of going the other direction: Can you recommend a way to get Blender to export in a format that can be imported to gmax?

EDIT:
very impressive:

(1) original gmax-model

(2) exportet model with FFG in 3dsMAX

Now again that unfortunately requires having a licensed version of 3dsMAX (currently I am on a 30d trial) It would be so great if this would exist for blender...

using belder 2.79b to import the .3ds-file confuses a few things:

(3) Imported 3ds-model in blender with positioning and rotation bug

does anyone know how to fix that?

EDIT:

In fact I did figure out to how to fix it, the solution can be found here.

(4) 3ds model in blender with fixed rotataion and positions

I am also able to export it as 3ds and re-import it into gmax:

(5) re-importet 3ds model in gmax with missing mesh edges

The only issue that is left now is that the edges of the mesh seem to be invisble in blender and therefor they are not visible in gmax. If that could be sorted out then blender would be a valid alternative to gmax I assume... don't know if anyone cares