Starting new city causes CTD

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

Hello!

I've been experiencing some CTD when starting specific undeveloped cities on a map I downloaded. When I select and open one of four individual city spaces on this region, the game simply crashes. Only this region seems to be affected. The region is a modified version of Coastal Southern Washington, a map posted by fellow member flamesrock, available here on Simtropolis. As usual, I downloaded the grayscale map (there was no config.bmp file), ran it through SC4 Mapper and created a region with size 20 x 20 using the default scale factor. The resulting map feels very nice, with no delay whatsoever. I have a couple of scenery mods that have run without issues since day one. 

Two of the cities are medium-sized and two are large cities. All four contain mountainous, high-altitude terrain. In addition, other cities on this region can be opened and built upon without CTD, but attempting to raise or lower their terrain altitude (using God Mode) also causes the game to crash. The issue only happens in this region. Could this problem be related to the altitude?

I've attached in-game pictures of the affected cities and the modified grayscale image based on flamesrock's map. 

Please excuse any missing info or redundancy on my part. This is my first post on this forum. And thank you guys for any help at all.

[rsc204 21,836]

Are you using a terrain mod? Even if not, you’re game will have a setting somewhere for the maximum height of terrain. It looks like these high altitude areas are over that value, triggering the CTDs.

If you have a terrain mod, you can edit it’s files, following the instructions here:

Otherwise it gets more complicated since you’d need a copy of the default settings to edit. If you go back to Mapper and check the tallest height on the map, it would be a doddle to provide you with a file that will make this work.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

Thank you for the reply! It makes sense.

I'm currently using this Mossy Rock Mod (https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/20908-mossy-rock-mod/) and a snow mod, whose author I just don't recall. However, I can't seem to access the files mentioned in the article using the reader.

I've tried removing them both and running the game, but it still crashes when I attempt to open one of the problematic cities, albeit taking a longer time to do so. Forgive my greenness. I guess I'm only just starting to explore these tools. How can I check the terrain height on the Mapper?

Again, thank you for taking your time to help me with this!

[rsc204 21,836]

So the first thing I need to expand on, is what I mean by Terrain Mod. To be truly accurate, it's the Terrain Properties Exemplar, specifically with the ID (purple highlight) as shown here:

The naming we give to certain types of mods, is usually very different from the technical stuff. Generally speaking this Exemplar is something a custom Terrain Mod would tweak (include), but terrain here ONLY means a mod that alters the base ground (grass) textures in-game.

Rock Mods, Water Mods, Beach Mods and similar, do alter the terrain, but are not in this sense a terrain mod, however some may need to contain the same Exemplar, in order to tweak how the textures display. Once you find the file on the left, you'll have the property on the right "Max Terrain Height", the one we need to edit.

37 minutes ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

and a snow mod

Which may be a problem, such a mod may, depending on it's function, contain the same Exemplar we're talking about. For example a diagonal jagged edge mod or snow mod, which could mean how snow displays as part of the terrain itself, or could equally refer to a mod that doesn't use the Exemplar. 

This is really the core purpose of the article I linked to, getting all the properties together in one place. This is absolutely mandatory, because you can only use one such Exemplar at a time, whichever is last in the loading order of Plugins, is the one that get's used. All others will have their Properties ignored or overridden. For example if you have a Terrain mod that tweaks a load of setting for the Terrain (grass) to look it's best, but a snow mod also exists and loads later, none of those tweaks will be used. Even though the Properties changed may be different, we can only use one "set" or Exemplar of each type (ID).

You need to look out for the TGI ID, 6534284a-88cd66e9-00000001 in SC4 files to be certain. Whatever the mod is named, it's a file with this ID, that we actually need. But right now I can't tell you if you have a custom one or not, last resort check all terrain related mod's files you have for the ID in question.

Frankly, this may not be the most important issue, before we can do anything, we absolutely need to know the height of your map anyway.

45 minutes ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

How can I check the terrain height on the Mapper?

Sorry, thinking about it you can't, I was thinking of it's big brother, SC4 Terraformer.

After pondering this problem, let's see if we can't kill a couple birds with one stone, drop the following file into your Plugins folder:

MapHeightIncrease.dat

Let's assume you don't have a copy of the Terrain Properties I'm waffling on about, well now you do, that's all this file does. It's one change is to increase the Max Terrain Height to 7500m, which is crazy high, but it will allow us to quickly establish if another such Exemplar exists or not. Assuming this is the only custom instance of the Exemplar in question, it should allow you to load the cities without a CTD. If it doesn't, we can be reasonably certain, something else exists, which loads after it and alters the same settings. In which case, you'll have to find it as outlined above.

However, you should NOT use this file for more than quick testing:

Quote

Instead i recommend changing the snowline through using MaxTerrainHeight only while leaving TemperatureRangeFactor at what the developer set it as. Because every terrain mod is different, this will require some trial and error. 

First you need the 'extracheats.dll' file from the STEX installed. Then you need to enter a tile you want to have the snowline on. Enter mayor mode (create city...) and call up the cheat box with 'control-x'. In the box type terrainquery and hit enter. This adds some geometric info to your query tool-tip. The y=value is the height, in meters, of the terrain at that point. Write this number down, exit the game, and go back into the terrain mod in the reader program.

Once you are in one of the cities that previously wouldn't load, you can use the above instructions to find the highest peak in your region. Then you can edit the file I attached, to set a more accurate Max Terrain Height for your region. If you do have another version of this Exemplar, you should remove my file and edit this value in there instead. You would only want to use the one here, if you needed to alter the value, but were not using another custom Exemplar that modifies the same Properties.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

You've been exceedingly helpful. I'll be back with some results.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

Once you are in one of the cities that previously wouldn't load, you can use the above instructions to find the highest peak in your region.

Okay, that worked! All affected cities can now be accessed. I verified that the top spot on a city is about 680. I really don't know if that's within the expected range.

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

This is absolutely mandatory, because you can only use one such Exemplar at a time, whichever is last in the loading order of Plugins, is the one that get's used. All others will have their Properties ignored or overridden. For example if you have a Terrain mod that tweaks a load of setting for the Terrain (grass) to look it's best, but a snow mod also exists and loads later, none of those tweaks will be used. Even though the Properties changed may be different, we can only use one "set" or Exemplar of each type (ID).

This remains an issue, unfortunately. I opened the mod on the reader and couldn't locate the exemplars. Maybe I'm missing a point, cause this is a bit new to me. Those were the only terrain mods I have installed, and I removed them to see if the problem was still there. Before your height increase file, higher altitude cities were still CTD, even though terrain-related mods weren't there anymore. Could the files simply not be there? Sorry again, I'm showing my ignorance on the matter.

[CorinaMarie 29,772]

2 hours ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

Could the files simply not be there?

That's quite possible.

Some terrain mods (the ones that change the grass colors) can simply be a set of textures which override the corresponding Maxis ones. Others are more elaborate and have the Terrain Properties Exemplar @rsc204 mentioned. If the terrain mod you are using does not have that exemplar, then the quick test file he made will be fine to continue using. While I haven't peeked in it, I can tell by his description that it will be the Maxis version extracted from SimCity_1.dat and then a tweak to one single property.

You could scroll thru Cori's Terrain Shoppe and see if the name or picture of a specific one sounds familiar. Once we know exactly which terrain mod (if any) you have, then we can peek inside to see if it does or does not have a customized version of the Terrain Properties Exemplar.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

@CorinaMarie Nice to see you! You're everywhere.

11 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

Some terrain mods (the ones that change the grass colors) can simply be a set of textures which override the corresponding Maxis ones.

That's exactly the case with the mod that I had. The reader only reveals textures.

11 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

If the terrain mod you are using does not have that exemplar, then the quick test file he made will be fine to continue using.

Really? The altitude adjustment? That would be great. I guess that's that! I couldn't find the snow mod I was using in that list you gave me, or anywhere on the STEX for that matter. I just don't remember where I got it from! =P

Anyways, I can't thank you both enough. You make all this look so easy! Hasta la vista.

[rsc204 21,836]

16 hours ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

I verified that the top spot on a city is about 680. I really don't know if that's within the expected range.

Well in respect of needing a modified Terrain Properties Exemplar, no it doesn't really. By default, the MaxTerrainHeight Property is set at 2,500m, which means unless your map exceeds that height, it should load without needing an additional "patch". One of two things is going on here, either your map is higher than 680m, perhaps you took the Z not the Y value, Y is height in SC4. Otherwise, assuming your terrain is only 680m high, that suggests another Terrain Properties Exemplar does exist, just that the version I gave you is loading after it. But the other one logically must have the MaxTerrainHeight set lower than the actual terrain.

We can use Reader and the file I posted, to determine if and how many other Exemplars exist with the same ID. Just open Reader and click on Tools (file menu) / Plugins Analyser:

Now we must wait, Reader needs to scan every file in your Plugins, it could take some time and it may look like nothing is happening. Be patient, it probably is doing something and won't appreciate being disturbed. When it does load, you'll see a Window like this:

On the left is a list of every file you have in Plugins, I've selected the MapHeightIncrease.dat file, i.e. the file I uploaded containing the Terrain Properties Exemplar. On the right, will be a list of any other instances of conflicting IDs, in other files, if any.

So here, you can see a conflicting Exemplar exists (my terrain mod), in the file SV Properties Low Alt_Cadwell Tuned.dat. Of course for different files, you may have more than one conflict in more than one file, this list could be a lot bigger.

Note also, the second entry (right) is listed as DIR file, after which every DIR file is listed. All DIR files must use an identical ID, it is not a problem and you should always ignore all data after this entry in the list.

2 hours ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

13 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

If the terrain mod you are using does not have that exemplar, then the quick test file he made will be fine to continue using.

Really? The altitude adjustment? That would be great. I guess that's that! I couldn't find the snow mod I was using in that list you gave me, or anywhere on the STEX for that matter. I just don't remember where I got it from! =P

Of course, if having terrain/snow/trees display as intended, including the maximum possible amount of variations based on height, then setting this correctly is really a big deal. If none of that bothers you and you simply want things to work, you can leave things as they are.

Basically this is the relevant part of the linked guide:

Quote

Remember we said each terrain mod is different, so this will take some trial and error.  Multiplying the value you just wrote down by 3 is a good starting place, so do that and enter it in the MaxTerrainHeight (and remember that this has to be higher than the highest point on your map).  Now you will have to go into and out of the game to check the results and adjust it accordingly.  If you have lowered the MaxTerrainHeight as far as you can (the highest point of your map) but still want a lower snowline, now you should start lowering the TemperatureRangeFactor in small increments until you achieve the desired results.

Blunder's preferred settings:  TemperatureRangeFactor: leave at the default unless necessary.

MaxTerrainHeight:  Again, this will vary depending on your map and your taste.  If your map has tall mountains, it will typically end up just a couple hundred meters taller than your highest point.  If the elevation is just small hills, it will probably be about 2x to 2.5x the elevation of the hilltops. 

Good job: you can now throw out your Terrain Height Patch.

*Some mods don't actually have snow, so this obviously won't work with all terrain mods.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

Hey, sorry for taking so long.

7 hours ago, rsc204 said:

One of two things is going on here, either your map is higher than 680m, perhaps you took the Z not the Y value, Y is height in SC4. Otherwise, assuming your terrain is only 680m high, that suggests another Terrain Properties Exemplar does exist, just that the version I gave you is loading after it.

It's weird. I tried to check the map's height again, but the game's back to crashing before opening the city. So I went and fired up the reader. There are no conflicting instances. I'm a bit puzzled, now. I've tried this before with and without the two mods I talked about, which weren't even technically terrain mods, if I understand correctly. Regardless, let me try again.

[CorinaMarie 29,772]

1 minute ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

It's weird.

Possibly related: Are you using the -CPUCount:1 start up switch? You might be experiencing the random crashes if that's not enabled.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

Okay, this is really odd. I've tried to open other cities, in various regions, including default ones. The game CTD on every attempt. The plugins folder is the same as last time, hell, the computer too. I wonder what could be causing this. 

5 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Are you using the -CPUCount:1 start up switch?

Yes, I rigged it in the SC4 Launcher.

I'm trying again. 

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

No luck. Not a single city gets past the loading screen. 

[CorinaMarie 29,772]

3 minutes ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

No luck. Not a single city gets past the loading screen. 

Grrr. What comes to mind then is like a Tree or Seaport controller was in use at the time of the prior save, but isn't now. (And this is just some guessing on my part.)

What happens if you select to create a new region?

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

10 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

What happens if you select to create a new region?

The region is created successfully, but the same thing happens when opening any city within. Well, I had some tree controllers installed, but they were there before and are still here. Weird. No seaports yet. Bummer. 

[CorinaMarie 29,772]

Ok. Next up is to rename your Plugins folder to something else like Plugins-Grrr and then try the new region test. This'll let us know for sure if it is something in your Plugins that is upsetting the game. (When the game doesn't see a Plugins folder, it'll create a new empty one.)

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

Yes! That did the trick. It appears all cities can be opened again. So, there's an intruder on board. What do you think? Why wasn't it an issue before?

BTW, thanks again for all the time you guys are pouring into this. =)

[CorinaMarie 29,772]

Ok. So we know it's something in Plugins that's pissing off the game. Since the recent tests have been with modifications to a nitpicky exemplar, I suspect somehow you've managed to get two of them each doing something a wee bit different.

How big is your plugins folder? You could move in half at a time and test. If it crashes it's in that half. If not copy half more and keep that up until you find the fly in the ointment.

[Cyclone Boom 17,016]

Glad that worked!

I agree at this point it'd be worth attempting the binary search method to track down the culprit (or culprits). See the post @A Nonny Moose made here which explains about this process. What the idea involves is to determine which half contains the offending plugins, and then narrow them down.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

Just now, CorinaMarie said:

You could move in half at a time and test. If it crashes it's in that half. If not copy half more and keep that up until you find the fly in the ointment.

Yeah, that's the smart way to do it. The folder's big enough that an individual would be headache-inducing. I guess I'll be away for a bit, but I'll give updates soon. And I'll find that damn fly. Thanks!

[rsc204 21,836]

15 hours ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

There are no conflicting instances. I'm a bit puzzled, now. I've tried this before with and without the two mods I talked about, which weren't even technically terrain mods, if I understand correctly.

That was the idea behind using the Plugins Analyser, indeed whatever mods you do have, none of them include Terrain Exemplars or they would have come up using this process.

15 hours ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

I tried to check the map's height again, but the game's back to crashing before opening the city.

14 hours ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

No luck. Not a single city gets past the loading screen. 

14 hours ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

Yes! That did the trick. It appears all cities can be opened again. So, there's an intruder on board. What do you think? Why wasn't it an issue before?

Now here we have a rather bizarre set of results, that don't necessary lead to an obvious single problem. However, if you consider all the elements, it is highly likely that somewhere there is a resource problem. Because that's the only way the shifting about of when and why it crashes makes any sense.

• If one of your Plugins was causing a CTD, then it would ALWAYS cause this behaviour.
• If it was really a problem relating to MaxTerrainHeight, your map would need to exceed the default 2,500m setting before it CTD'd.

Let's say you re-start your computer, before you do anything else, you open SC4. Now let's imagine instead you've been using the computer a while, maybe even having some applications open. The amount of free resources, realistically RAM or HDD space, can be quite different between those two situations. It seems like sometimes SC4 can open when enough resources are free, but other times when it runs out trying to load things, you get the CTDs. It's the only explanation of everything you are seeing, likely you did not need the height patch, but those cities were more prone to CTDs, because higher/more complex terrain needs more memory to load. Likewise, removing all your Plugins takes much less memory, giving the appearance something installed was behind the problem.

So the first thing we need to establish is some basic information about your machine. How much RAM do you have and how much is being used? Press Shift+Ctrl+Esc keys together, up pops the Task Manager. Here it will tell you how much Physical Memory your system has, plus how much is currently free. For an accurate and useful value, you should boot your computer fresh, then take the value once the computer has completely finished loading. A good sign is when the HDD activity completely subsides. It would also help to know if you have a 64-bit version of Windows, right click on (My) Computer then select Properties, your Windows version is listed here. Lastly, how much free HDD space exists on your C Drive, open (My) Computer by double-clicking on it, select the C Drive and this information should be displayed. It would also help to know if you are using NAM, if so which version?

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

5 hours ago, rsc204 said:

• If one of your Plugins was causing a CTD, then it would ALWAYS cause this behaviour.
• If it was really a problem relating to MaxTerrainHeight, your map would need to exceed the default 2,500m setting before it CTD'd.

Makes total sense.

5 hours ago, rsc204 said:

So the first thing we need to establish is some basic information about your machine.

Sure! My laptop runs 64-bit Windows, with 10 GB usable RAM (using between 3 and 4 GB right after startup). Available disk memory is about 300 out of 930 GB. It's brand new, no older than a couple of months and running really well.

I moved my plugins folder straight from the old machine. It's been a while since I played, but I know these were trusted add-ons that I keep usually organized. Mostly non-lot additions, since I haven't taken these out of the downloads folder yet.

I've also just installed the new NAM (version 39, right?), but haven't really tried it. Looks nice!

Thanks for the tips!

[rsc204 21,836]

20 minutes ago, ArnoldSchwarzenegger said:

I've also just installed the new NAM (version 39, right?), but haven't really tried it.

Did you run the 4GB Patch and did it complete properly? We've had a lot of problems where this hasn't been successful. Generally speaking, due to the large amount of code NAM v37 and above now has by default, this is necessary to prevent your game from running out of memory. Although your system clearly has plenty to spare, SC4 is a 32-bit application and so both it and a large portion of OS reserved memory, must all fit into just 2GB. Good news is, once you've patched the game's .exe with this LAA (Large Address Aware) flag, the game get's to reserve the full 2GB is can use for itself. Literally all this patch does is set a flag that tells Windows, it can make use of LAA, it's known as a 4GB patch, because 2GB goes to the App, the other 2GB is separated for the OS reserved part.

The patcher is included inside the .zip download for NAM. I'm guessing, frankly I really hope this IS the problem, your system is so uncluttered (new machine and all), that opening the city puts the RAM use right on the limit, hence the intermittent successes. More typically with this problem, users can never open cities without a CTD occurring first, but of course everyone uses different setups. We caught a curve-ball with the whole terrain height thing, I suspect you can ditch the file I posted, you probably don't need it.

Should the patch not resolve things, then congratulations, you've got a weird one. But I'll keep my fingers crossed we've narrowed things down properly.

[ArnoldSchwarzenegger 24]

DILLON!

You found it, you brilliant genius. The patch totally slipped my mind. All cities now opening and working like a charm, with all plugins back in action. That's it. All this because of a small oversight.

No wonder this game is still around after two decades. 2003 Maxis couldn't have asked for better fans. Thank you, guys. =)