The SimTropolis House of Worship

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: Lampala Christians believe in heaven and hell. We want people to go to heaven. So we try to get as many people as we can to go there. I guess it's not a good strategy to "latch on to people like a lamprey", or to be bothersome enough to get the other person's opinion about their beliefs down, but remember those people's intentions. Duke, you made it sound like people who do that are simply trying to be right about something and prove they're better than you, but really they are just doing what they are being taught all throughout the Bible to do. Perhaps not exactly the in the most effective way, but they have exactly the same intentions as someone who sits down and talks about it with someone. You say you "do things your way and let people do things their way", but us christians' way is to do as we were taught and go be outward about our belief, wanting our friends and even strangers to go to heaven one day. Our way is NOT to selfishly keep our faith to ourselves. You may not believe what we believe, but we want you to, because that could likely save you. quote>

But what you are assuming is that every Christian is a good one. There are lots and lots who aren't very selfless at all and carry around their own perverted view of the faith. There are loads who do just want to prove they're better than others, who are like the hypocrites who pray just to be seen praying.

Wanting to share is fine. If the execution is so poor that it is like they are latching on like a lamprey, their intentions won't be a saving grace. It completely sours the message. At a certain point, with certain people, sharing turns to pestering. If someone says no to "being saved" for 99 times, the 100th offer isn't going to win them over. It is not selfishly keeping it to yourselves, it's respecting rational choices others have made.

It's best for you in the long run if we don't shut up (and I'm not saying that not shutting up means nagging you).quote>

It's best for them in your opinion. No one is going to feel threatened by grim prospects from the bible if the don't care for the book in the first place.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Not to break up a discussion, but here is my argument to end all arguments:

Most modern religions (in fact, I think all of them which have some sort of deity) hold fast to the idea that their deity is perfect.  This arises one question though:  If the deity in question is indeed perfect, then it is incapable of imperfection and failure, no?  So, in light of this, how does a perfect deity manufacture such a corrupt and evil world, according to said deity?  Wormhole your way around this as you will, but keep this in mind:  Sure, the creation may have been perfect at the beginning (according to the traditional Christians, who say that the World was in fact perfect before Adam ate the apple), but wouldn't a perfect creator be incapable of making anything with even the capacity for failure? 

I'm not calling for a jihad, here.  But it allowed me accept the concept of the imperfect deity, whoever that may be.  It explains so many things: sin, evil, suffering, disease, famine, natural disasters, etc.  If God is indeed imperfect then imperfection in this world is explainable in logical terms. 

Ranee Descartes once argued that an imperfect God cannot exist, because a deity is, by definition, perfect.  But why?  Why does the definition of a deity have to be so... conformist?  Can one not have greater power over another without he himself being perfect?  I mean, we see it all the time in movies; a superhero with a bad attitude (Hancock, anyone?).  It's the same concept.

So my point here is not to provoke argument and discord, but thought.  Allow your presuppositions about all that you were taught to slip away for just one moment and ponder that.  Free thought is not a crime, it's a right.

[EDIT]: Addressing the issue of lack of conversion to the Christian religion; I think that the biggest problem is not those who genuinely want to "save your soul", it is those who preach fire, brimstone, and suffering.  I see it everyday on my university's campus.  We call them "Quad-Gods" (seeing as they stand next to the "Quad" and preach their message).  Not one, and I mean, NOT ONE has preached the good message of Christianity.  Each and every one of them that comes into our campus is so offensive and insulting to my peers that it is unbelievable.  The Christian religion is so obscenely misrepresented on my campus that it makes me want to scream.  While not being a part of your traditional Christian theology, it makes me angry when I see one of the Quad Gods harrassing another student; calling him/her a fag, saying that they're going to hell, assaulting students (yes, it's happened), making a scene in general.  It's gotten to the point where campus police have put up riot barriers around the quad god to prevent him/her from being assaulted by the student body, or the student body assaulting them.  I think that this alone has made anyone that would have possibly been a "convert" so turned off by these daily sideshows that they will never again listen to the message, no matter how it's presented.  It's not that they don't want to be a part of your religion, it's that they don't want to be in the same corner with the Quad-God freaks.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

"Evangelism, in my opinion, is the worst incarnation of religious practice."quote>

Well-said. Good use of vocab btw

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa Proselytizing is poopie.  It only creates discord.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs, but the active action of trying to convert is simply wrong, and, frankly, insulting.  I do not go around trying to convert people to atheism, but I do let me viewpoints be known.  It is important that people think for themselves and work out their beliefs on their own.

Evangelism, in my opinion, is the worst incarnation of religious practice.

Barbarossaquote>

I actually completely agree with you, even though I'm pretty religious myself. (I just never tell anyone... it's my little secret.)

We had a tour guide in this Indian village in Chiapas (Mexico) who was going on about how insulting it was that missionaries were intruding on their personal beliefs (They follow their old religion but adapted it to Christiantiy so they wouldn't be persecuted by the Spanish, like, for example, Jesus is the sun, Mary is the moon, the saints are different earth gods, etc) I felt sympathy, because alot of times zealous religiousity can do that to people, and they probably don't (or do) realize how hurtful it is. I feel bad about it, but before I went there I thought they sounded weird and primitive, but they were really interesting and unique.

He also brought up a great point, what makes YOU right? Just because someone's beliefs seem so bizarre doesn't make it worthless filth.

By the way, I always get crap about my faith being stupid, but I honestly don't care, it's my business so I'll believe what I want.

Not that there's a purgatory, that idea is unBiblical and was invented to sell indulgences.quote>

Exhibit A.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Explodingsims

Frankly, everyone has their own opinions, and they're allowed to have them. Although I see no problem with someone at least talking to them about another religion. The problem with this is, that some people won't take no for an answer, and latch on to them like a lamprey. quote>

The thing of it is, though, they don't even need to latch on to be annoying. They just need to start. Even if they perfectly take no for an answer, they're still a bother since there's so many of them.

I mean, having it brought up once by a hundred people is no less annoying than having it brought up a hundred times by one person. It's still me having to hear it a hundred times either way.

So, no, the problem isn't people not taking "no" for an answer. The problem is people even asking in the first place.

Which only succeeds in driving them further away from their cause. Unfortunately, people just can't grasp this, and since these are usually the loudest group, they set the tone/stereotype for the religion. Which leads to more people (I.E. Duke) Being turned off said religion. quote>

Believe me, there is a whole plethora of reasons why I'm turned off by any and all religion. The badgering nutjobs is but one of them.

Originally posted by: Lampala Christians believe in heaven and hell. We want people to go to heaven. So we try to get as many people as we can to go there.quote>

Which is in and of itself a bad thing to be doing, since those people who aren't practicing your faith are doing so by their own choosing and want to be left alone about it. You would thus be better serving them by leaving them alone completely.

That's giving them what they want to be given. You're not doing that. Your "gift" of salvation that you keep offering isn't much of a gift- because it's unwanted, you see.

Duke, you made it sound like people who do that are simply trying to be right about something and prove they're better than you, but really they are just doing what they are being taught all throughout the Bible to do. quote>

Yes, the bible does tach that you should try and encourage people to convert.

However, do realize that the motivation behind this isn't to spread salvation. It's to get more people to follow the church so that the church gets more power.

That's all organized religion is, really. A way of controlling people. Make them do what you want them to do by convincing them that some all-powerful god wants them to do it and will reward you if you do and punish you if you don't.

Which is, of course, another one of the reasons I'm turned off by religion.

You say you "do things your way and let people do things their way", but us christians' way is to do as we were taught and go be outward about our belief, wanting our friends and even strangers to go to heaven one day. quote>

But it is a perfectly valid opinion to disagree with that teaching.

Our way is NOT to selfishly keep our faith to ourselves. quote>

Which is unfortunate, since many people (myself included) would rather you did. I don't wanna hear it. Your religion is your business. What my religion (or lack thereof) is is not.

You may not believe what we believe, but we want you to, because that could likely save you. It's best for you in the long run if we don't shut up (and I'm not saying that not shutting up means nagging you).quote>

...and again, that philosophy is severely flawed. For one thing, it means that you've just decided that you know what's best for me and I don't. Which is basically saying "I'm right and you're wrong", not respectful of others' opinions at all.

For another, it's highly arrogant and self centered to take an approach like that. Let's look at that first part again:

You may not believe what we believe, but we want you toquote>

The mistake here is thinking that what you want actually matters. This is my opinion we're talking about. There is only one person for whom what they want matters: me.

No matter what you do, you're not going to change my mind. But of course, that never stops people from trying. Hence why it's annoying to have to deal with over and over.

Whenever someone decides they want to try and "enlighten" me to something, be it political, religious, or otherwise, it is never a pleasant experience. Ever. It just makes me want to yell "Shut Up! Go Away! I don't give a damn what you think!" (with more profanity than that, of course).

Now, I will admit to being extraordinarily thickheadded, but still. There is no excuse for trying to force your opinion on someone else, no matter what it may be. That is unacceptable behavior. It's disrespectful, insulting, and even at times oppressive.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

I just don't see why people can't live and let others live. The Evangelist movement in the Christian religion is a complete disrespect for other's opinions. This is why the Christians are so hated in the world today. They just don't quit. They won't accept the fact that there are those who don't give a flying squirrel about your newfound salvation and opious high from it.

Perhaps the biggest turn-off is that they don't want to turn into you evangelical types. They know just how annoying it is to others and don't want to become the guy in the party that walks up to strangers and says "I'd like to talk to you about Jesus. Drinking is bad, mmmk?". Even the concept of pointing out a stranger and labeling them as non-Christian can be somewhat insulting. You've passed judgement before you've even opened your mouth. You say that the way they're living is sinful, and that their current way of living is so wrong that you feel like you should interject, with total disregard for their views on things. Just leave people alone...

[smstevenms 7]

I have missed a bit and don't have time to quote every last point that I'd like too. Here’s my views:

Duke, as Lampala pointed out, it is our duty to share are faith, it’s a calling. I share my love of God and Jesus Christ with anyone that will listen but only if it's natural or if I'm call to do so. I don't force my view onto anyone, but I see nothing wrong with sharing, as many people do with many thoughts I care not to hear.

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fukuda, I am not a "protestant"; I am nothing more than a Christian. Religion can mislead you in the guise of faith and the word of God. and what do you mean by "We say "Jesus!" here", what does that mean?

Speaking about the state of someone, I don’t think I need to know them personally to describe or to determine there state of mind. It was clearly spelled out.

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Again Duke, you said "I don't go around trying to convince Christians to stop being Christians", how can you. God offers so much more than this world can ever produce. 

Also how can a Christian keep Gods love for us to him or her self. Just as a son praises his father, or a father boasting of his kids achievements, or even people going on and on about this or that athlete and so on, when God does so much for us - even if you don't realize it. Everyone wants to share something that's good in there life, that will never change!

"It's always important to remember this: your religious beliefs are your opinions, not facts. The sooner you grasp that, the better off you'll be. Because treating opinions as facts is an excellent way to start fights and make enemies. 

It's obvious that not all of the world's religions can be right. In fact, even assuming there is something divine or supernatural out there, chances are overwhelmingly that none of them are, since there are an infinite number of possibilities and a finite number of religions." 

All ideas start as opinions, and if we thought this way (as you stated) we'd still be in the stone ages, we use to think the world was flat; remember. Religious ideas will always produce enemies, it is the ying to our yang, and it is a reaffirmation of our faith. You speak of there being many religions and so on; being neutral doesn't put you on firmer ground.

When someone doesn’t want to do something, something they have to or required to do, they look for reasons that could accuse them from it. That's what I see in those that dismiss religion and use those that “won't relent” as there reason for not taking interest. I was given common sense and a conscience and those two together help me reason. I know when I am presented with a choice that is wrong but desirable and a choice that is difficult but right, I make the choice. With faith, I am made to make even a better choice!

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Psycho_Teddy, I want to address your first post this page "break-in". God’s age is unknown; therefore it is plausible to speculate that God was not always perfect. Now the bible is God’s word, and it was left to man to interpret and teach its gospel. It is said in the bible that God spoke with the disciples and gave them the words along with there on understanding (guided by God) to write what would become the bible. Man will always misinterpret the meanings of things, as it has been done time and time again throughout time. The primary meaning & message has not been lost, nor will it ever be unless it is removed from society, which you see happens more and more. I believe in one God, and believe that in different cultures they call God under a different name. Almost all old religions have the same message, it can’t be coincidence!

To speak on or of the perfection of God and all the world's suffering. We suffer to know love, an injury requires attention, the pain that follows reminds us of the mistake we made and to learn from it is beneficial. Compassion is derived from pain, seeing others sick, suffering and dieing reminds us of our mortality, and how short of a life span we have. When you were a child your parents disciplined you when you misbehaved. Grounded, privileges revoked, whatever it may have been, and you learned from those lessons. Now as an adult you can see the wisdom and love in what you were taught, this is no different in the way God is to his children; us!

We were designed to need others, and this pulls us together. Those that claim that they want to be alone do not speak a full truth, but surely have been hurt in there life by others. No one knows God's plan, but the bible is perfect, it is man who is not - even though he try's to obtain perfection.

BTW - It was Eve not Adam who first ate from the tree of knowledge!

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Barbarossa, I have already made this point, but I'll say it in another way. Let say there was no advertisement what so ever: ok so no signs, commercials, or even someone announcing in person (including word of mouth), how would he or she know what's going on? I'm sure when you have and idea about something, regardless of significant, you don't ask "can I tell you about this or that". Image this " Accuse me may I say hi to you, good, Hi John. May I ask you, how is your day today, and so on? Give me a break, we all speak of what we want according to the person or situation were in, and perhaps that'll all change the more "PC" this damned world gets.

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panthersimcity4, Is it common practice in your religion to keep it a secret. I can only hope to have the faith to die (if required) for the belief I have in Jesus Christ.

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BTW Duke, there’s a big difference between religion and faith. The bible doesn’t motive people to make the church powerful, nor is it the purpose of a church to “have power” over anything. A church is merely a symbol of the house of God; a sacred and holy place. In the in end it is made with all the same stuff your home is, and can fall just as easy.

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In closing, my words are meant to be clarity nothing more. I believe in the book, and everything for living right is in there. A preacher is a man who may or may not have had a calling, is taught how to read and interpret the bible, and then present the word the best he can. I don’t go to church anymore due to those I can feel are fake or I feel nothing.

I live to please God, I may not do so well at this but I try. I have nothing to lose by believing in God/Jesus Christ the Almighty father, and so much to gain as I am living proof of the love God offers.

I’d like to make an example of those that are happy most of the time and those that are not. A person who is happy, smiling, involved, helpful, playful and so on; is someone people are drawn to. They get promoted, or ask to participate in special events, get rises, less likely to be fired when downsizing occurs, people want to be in there presents, be friends and so on. The opposite is true for the vise versa of this.

I am a follower of Christ, and when something doesn’t make sense I question it. The only people that believe outlandish claims are those that are weak and let themselves be lead further and further down a dark path. There’s always time for redemption before it’s over, everyday is another chance for me to change and be a better man.

had to edit, posted everything upside down.

I just read something Psycho_Teddy posted that I missed. "Psycho_Teddy has posted a message entitled The SimTropolis House of Worship.

The following message was posted on: Sunday August 10,2008 01:25:13 PM

I just don't see why people can't live and let others live. The Evangelist movement in the Christian religion is a complete disrespect for other's opinions. This is why the Christians are so hated in the world today. They just don't quit. They won't accept the fact that there are those who don't give a flying squirrel about your newfound salvation and opious high from it.

Perhaps the biggest turn-off is that they don't want to turn into you evangelical types. They know just how annoying it is to others and don't want to become the guy in the party that walks up to strangers and says "I'd like to talk to you about Jesus. Drinking is bad, mmmk?". Even the concept of pointing out a stranger and labeling them as non-Christian can be somewhat insulting. You've passed judgement before you've even opened your mouth. You say that the way they're living is sinful, and that their current way of living is so wrong that you feel like you should interject, with total disregard for their views on things. Just leave people alone..."

Are you not doing the same thing right here and now that you claim to dislike? Are we not here to discuss religion, or is this a forum of what I hate about this or that? That fact that you reply with responses is a direct indication that you do have some interest in this "newfound salvation and opious high". Did you know that the largest percentage of the world is made up of Christianity, followed by Islam. So either everyone that isn't is in this percentage hates Christians, or we Christians and other are hating us. In anycase, I can't image it being a high percentage of those that hate us, and those that hate only gives us strength. Christians aren't motived by those that think the same as we do, what good would that do. We Christians hate the sin not the sinner, we are taught to love everyone, not to judge, forgive, and to share in are love of Jesus Christ. No one is perfect, not everyone delivers that same message as it was writen, do you hate for always, those that screw up your order whatever or where ever that may be? Those that choose to look for reason to hate will find them, it's easy to go down hill than it is to go up it

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: smstevenms

Duke, as Lampala pointed out, it is our duty to share are faith, it’s a calling. I share my love of God and Jesus Christ with anyone that will listen but only if it's natural or if I'm call to do so. I don't force my view onto anyone, but I see nothing wrong with sharing, as many people do with many thoughts I care not to hear.quote>

I know that. But for non-believers like myself, it's a problem with the faith. Because it being a Christian's duty to share their faith translates to it being a Christian's duty to be a pain in my ass. I don't want that faith shared with me. So it's disrespectful to me for someone to do so.

I am not a "protestant"; I am nothing more than a Christian. quote>

So, non-denominational, then?

Again Duke, you said "I don't go around trying to convince Christians to stop being Christians", how can you. God offers so much more than this world can ever produce.quote>

Key words being "trying to". I'm not saying "I don't convert them", I'm saying "I don't try to convert them". Big difference.

I recognize that I have as much chance of getting Christians give up their faith as they have of getting me to accept it.

I know it's a futile effort, so I don't bother. What Christians need to realize is that the same is also true for them.

Also, remember, what god has to offer is again, a matter of opinion. You say he has so much to offer. So far as I'm concerned, he has absolutely nothing to offer (well, nothing positive, anyway).

Also how can a Christian keep Gods love for us to him or her self.quote>

....by keeping their mouth shut about it rather than bothering people?

They are perfectly capable of it. They just don't want to and/or believe they're not supposed to.

Just as a son praises his father, or a father boasting of his kids achievements, or even people going on and on about this or that athlete and so on, when God does so much for us - even if you don't realize it. Everyone wants to share something that's good in there life, that will never change!quote>

Sharing is all well and good if the receiving party is consenting. But if they don't want to hear it, then it's not sharing with them, it's forcefully giving them something they don't want, which is wrong.

And again, recongize what's a fact and what's an opinion here. You can say "God does so much for us - even if you don't realize it.", but you have no evidence or proof of that, just your (blind) faith. I could just as easily say "God does absolutely nothing for us - even if you don't realize it."

And you know what? Neither of us would be wrong or right. Because those are but opinions.

All ideas start as opinions, and if we thought this way (as you stated) we'd still be in the stone ages, we use to think the world was flat; remember. quote>

That's not at all the same thing. What the shape of the Earth is is not a matter of opinion. You can empirically prove that it's round and you can mathematically show that it would make no physical sense for it not to be.

But you cannot empirically prove anything about the existence of a god (or lack thereof), or any actions of his. Nor can you through any sort of mathematical work show that it would make sense for there to be one (or for there not to be one).

An idea and an opinion are not the same thing. Anything involving something divine or transcendent cannot be proven or disproven, leaving the nature of its existence (if any) to be a matter of personal opinion for all eternity. But something involving the concrete physical world can be proven or disproven. An thusly, when we aren't sure what the case is, the various ideas out there are not at all opinions, they are hypotheses and theories.

In point: If you say "the Earth is flat", you're wrong. If you say "the Earth is round", you're right. If you say "god exists", you are neither wrong nor right. If you say "god does not exist", you are niether wrong nor right." The former is a matter of fact, the latter one of opinion.

Absolutely no facts ever start out as opinions. Something is either one or the other, and it cannot under any circumstances go from being one to being the other.

God cannot ever be a "fact", because he cannot ever become indisputable.

I'm not saying we shouldn't think outside the box and be open to new ideas, but there is a difference between a philosophical idea and a scienfic one.

Religious ideas will always produce enemies, it is the ying to our yang, and it is a reaffirmation of our faith. You speak of there being many religions and so on; being neutral doesn't put you on firmer ground.quote>

I never said it did. Nobody is on any firmer ground than anyone else. Such is the nature of opinions, you see. There is no such thing as absolute right or wrong.

Now if only people would realize that...

When someone doesn’t want to do something, something they have to or required to do, they look for reasons that could accuse them from it. That's what I see in those that dismiss religion and use those that “won't relent” as there reason for not taking interest. I was given common sense and a conscience and those two together help me reason. I know when I am presented with a choice that is wrong but desirable and a choice that is difficult but right, I make the choice. With faith, I am made to make even a better choice!quote>

Well, you are onto something. I don't want to "do" religion. So then why should I? There is absouletely no requirement that I do so. It's a free country.

And as I said before, "those that won't relelnt" is but one reason among many.

And hey, I have common sense and a conscience, too. Difference is that religion goes against my common sense, and trying to tell people what to do against their wishes is something that my conscience says is wrong.

It's all relative to your point of view, after all.

BTW Duke, there’s a big difference between religion and faith. The bible doesn’t motive people to make the church powerful, nor is it the purpose of a church to “have power” over anything. A church is merely a symbol of the house of God; a sacred and holy place. In the in end it is made with all the same stuff your home is, and can fall just as easy. quote>

You, my friend, are absolutely right about that.

The problem is, when you go to church on Sunday, you are following the church, not god. It's almost a sort of idolatry, perhaps. Tell me: why does one need any buildings or organizations made up of mere humans to get involved in their faith in god? That's actually why I like the idea of non-denominationalism. Those people have proven that they can think for themselves and don't need someone else to tell them what to think. And that is a very laudible quality for someone to have.

The only people that believe outlandish claims are those that are weak and let themselves be lead further and further down a dark path. quote>

Now those are great words to live by.

Trouble is, what exactly constitutes an outlandish claim is highly subjective. To me, god existing at all seems to be an outlandish claim. To a lot of people, it's not.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: smstevenms

panthersimcity4, Is it common practice in your religion to keep it a secret. I can only hope to have the faith to die (if required) for the belief I have in Jesus Christ.

quote>

Well, I'm a Christian (Catholic to be specific) but I don't like advertising my religion, I find it in bad taste. I like to follow these couple of verses:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

I may be taking it too literally but hey, that's what alot of people do when it comes to Homosexuality and the like. Plus pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins (of Catholic School fame), and one I often try to avoid.

Another reason I don't really talk about my religion is that most (if not all) of my friends are a different religion, since I can never seem to get along with fellow Christians with my liberal political views

Originally posted by: Psycho_Teddy I just don't see why people can't live and let others live. The Evangelist movement in the Christian religion is a complete disrespect for other's opinions. This is why the Christians are so hated in the world today. They just don't quit. They won't accept the fact that there are those who don't give a flying squirrel about your newfound salvation and opious high from it. quote>

You make a great point, I've always had the opinion that evangelism should really only be directed towards those who are interested, like for example if someone comes up to you and says "Who is Jesus?" or  "How can I go to Heaven?" something like that, then you can explain it. Throughout history it's been shown that forced evangelism doesn't work, it only works if the person actually wants to convert.

[futurearchitect 0]

Personally, my mom came from a liberal Christian family (don't even know what denomination :? and my dad came from a liberal Jewish family (although that's pretty redundant jk's, jk's...I consider myself to be culturally from both religions, and enjoy the history and, well, deep culture that each provides. This also leads me to think and realize that all religions are equal and that following any of them can help lead you to a decent life if not performed in excess. In terms of faith, though, I find myself secular. To be honest I think all religion is a combination of conspiracy created on fear by power-hungry dictators, as well as a general explanation of the unknown (like quantum theory), but that doesn't stop me from admiring the complexity and evolution of this fascinating aspect of human consciousness.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: smstevenms

Are you not doing the same thing right here and now that you claim to dislike? Are we not here to discuss religion, or is this a forum of what I hate about this or that? That fact that you reply with responses is a direct indication that you do have some interest in this "newfound salvation and opious high". Did you know that the largest percentage of the world is made up of Christianity, followed by Islam. So either everyone that isn't is in this percentage hates Christians, or we Christians and other are hating us. In anycase, I can't image it being a high percentage of those that hate us, and those that hate only gives us strength. Christians aren't motived by those that think the same as we do, what good would that do. We Christians hate the sin not the sinner, we are taught to love everyone, not to judge, forgive, and to share in are love of Jesus Christ. No one is perfect, not everyone delivers that same message as it was writen, do you hate for always, those that screw up your order whatever or where ever that may be? Those that choose to look for reason to hate will find them, it's easy to go down hill than it is to go up it

quote>

There is a very distinct difference between the sharing of ideas and opinions and unwanted solicitation of them.  This forum is designed to be a collaboration of thoughts on religion.  What I was referring to was the fact that evangelicals solicit their religion as if it were some sort of product, as if they were door-to-door salesmen.  I shared my opinion, I'm not forcing it down someone's throat.

PS - Concerning your opening statement, I've spent 6 years of my youth in the Christian Schooling system, you're not going to tell me anything I haven't heard before concerning God.

PSPS - 500th post! (*gets out the cake*)

[Vandy 110]

Hello, fellow posters.

[EDIT]
My apologies for the initial incomplete post.  I inadvertently pressed a key combination that caused the message to post before I was ready.
[END EDIT]

I must say that Christian apologetics is a very interesting subject in which one can get quite involved.  I've had many the lively debate with fellow Christians and non-Christians alike when discussing this subject..

And, if I may be allowed, that is what Christian apologetics should be -- a debate.  Never should such a discussion devolve into an argument, name-calling or other types of histrionics.  Being secure in the faith enables you to stay above such abhorrent behavior.

As Christians, we are directed to "Preach the word" (2 Timothy 4:2) and ensure we don't "put a stumbling block" in the way of others (Romans 14:13).  However, if we are to "shine as lights in the world", we must be sure that we do so without "murmurings and disputings".  (Philipians 2:14-15.)  Yet, Christians are also clearly told to "shake off the dust of your feet" when someone stands steadfast against God (Matthew 10:14).

Christians are exhorted to "work out" our own "salvation with fear and trembling".  (Philipians 2:12), pray to our Father in private (Matthew 6:5-7)  and not "forsake the assembling of ourselves together" (Hebrews 10:25).  Christians are commanded to "put on the whole armour of God" (Ephesians 6:11) and stand ready as well as to abide in "faith, hope, charity" (1 Corinthians 13:13).

Christians "stand fast in the faith" (1 Corinthians 16:13), "walk in the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16) and wait "for the coming" of Christ (1 Corinthians 1:7).  Christians may not have the answers to all things (Deuteronomy 29:29) but are "assured" through the "holy scriptures" (2 Timothy 3:13-15) that "Christ died for us" (Romans 5: and through the "blood of Jesus Christ" and spoken confession, have been given salvation (1 John 5:6; Romans10:9-11).

Yes, Christian apologetics are powerful, indeed.

Regards,

Gary

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

Okay, I have to admit, as many time's as I've seen "Xmas", this is the first time I've ever seen someone write "Xtian".

... and shouldn't it be "Xian"? The X substitutes "Christ", not "Chris".

In any case, they're both silly, since there's absolutely no reason to censor out "Christ". It's not offensive in any way. And if you're going to do that, you might as well just go for it and write "*****ian". Or "$!ian".

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[smstevenms 7]

I knew that everything I mentioned would be argued away. Everything I spoke is clear, you can all take from what you will as even the bible's word are misread, I know what's in my heart as surely as you all know what's in yours. Even though I am qouted and the point over looked, I'll make mention of this again: I can't know if you're interested in the word before I approach you with the word, thus I have to start somewhere. I also made it clear, I don't walk up to perfect strangers, only those that God brings me to.

I'd rather be a guy who believes that there's a greater place that I'm going. To believe that there's nothing after this, that all of my thoughts, those that I have loved, my dreams, my inner termoil; was all for nothing; to worm food and nothing more, couldn't imagine it. In fact it's sad, if I thought this way I don't think I could care about anyone or much of anything.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: smstevenms I knew that everything I mentioned would be argued away. Everything I spoke is clear, you can all take from what you will as even the bible's word are misread, I know what's in my heart as surely as you all know what's in yours. Even though I am qouted and the point over looked, I'll make mention of this again: I can't know if you're interested in the word before I approach you with the word, thus I have to start somewhere. I also made it clear, I don't walk up to perfect strangers, only those that God brings me to.

I'd rather be a guy who believes that there's a greater place that I'm going. To believe that there's nothing after this, that all of my thoughts, those that I have loved, my dreams, my inner termoil; was all for nothing; to worm food and nothing more, couldn't imagine it. In fact it's sad, if I thought this way I don't think I could care about anyone or much of anything.quote>

 

We're not saying that what you believe is necessarily wrong, Steven.  To do so would sour this entire thread, reducing it to nothing but a flame war over petty details; like most religious threads tend to dissolve into. What we're saying is that we just don't want to be confronted with it all the time.  While it may not be a practice that you're involved in, there are those people within the Christian religion who think their radical new way of trolling public places with their hate speech and condemnations will gain new followers.  We see it every single day on my University's campus; and I mean EVERY single day. THOSE are the people that we can't stand.  I have no qualms about your personal beliefs, but it seems like there are those within the Christian religion that have qualms about ours (by "ours", I mean, non-Christians, not necessarily Atheists).

The thing is, it's not your job to tell us what we're doing wrong.  I know that there are very explicit verses within the Bible that tell you to do so, but it's just bloody annoying.  Most everyone you see today have put deep and meaningful thought into what they believe and why they believe it, and you (not you perse, but evangelicals as a whole) think you're the only ones?  We've chosen what we've chosen, and we'd rather not be bothered with people who think we haven't "thought things through" clearly enough. I would think, after having spent six years of my life in Christian schools, and being taught just about everything pertaining to the Christian religion, I would be capable of making a rational decision about what I want to believe.  And for you (again, evangelicals) to tell me that I am incapable of doing so, is quite frankly an insult to my intelligence.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa Not sure why you haven't seen it before, but it is used frequently in atheist groups. quote>

I haven't been known to hang out in "atheist groups". Nor do I really want to.

It's boring when everyone agrees with you.

It's just part of my nature that I have this pathological need to be contrary. I highly enjoy being the dissenting opinion. I don't like being in the majority.

I don't get to rant and rave when everyone agrees with me. No point when you're (caution, ironic usage of phrase coming up) preaching to the choir.

I have neither a goal nor a desire to impress you. quote>

Excellent. Wouldn't have it any other way. Do what suits you! Don't give a damn what anyone else thinks.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: Duke87

In point: If you say "the Earth is flat", you're wrong. If you say "the Earth is round", you're right. If you say "god exists", you are neither wrong nor right. If you say "god does not exist", you are niether wrong nor right." The former is a matter of fact, the latter one of opinion.

quote>

Umm, wait a minute, so you're saying that your opinion is correct and someone else's is wrong?  That doesn't seem very...Secular of you

The reality is that the whole "God doesn't exist" thing is an opinion. You can't prove anything of the supernatural nature, simply because it isn't physical. But you can't disprove it if you can't physically make observations that would prove against it.

[Sam 163]

No I think he's saying the Earth is flat/round (the former) is a matter of fact but that a god exists/does not exist (the latter) is a matter of opinion.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: sam No I think he's saying the Earth is flat/round (the former) is a matter of fact but that a god exists/does not exist (the latter) is a matter of opinion.quote>

My bad.

[Meh1234 1]

I'm atheist, the second growing "religion" in the Netherlands after Islam

[smstevenms 7]

Originally posted by: Thijs-Voets-Il I'm atheist, the second growing "religion" in the Netherlands after Islamquote>

 

Atheism is not a religion! Before you argue this go here!

[fukuda 351]

I think no one is going to argue that atheism is not a religion, notice that he used "" around religion

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Semantics... Atheism is a worldview, not a religion... There's a reason he put quotes around it... Is it really that big of a deal?

On with the conversation at hand, then, eh?

[jglei701 8]

Hmm... for some odd reason, though I was subscribed to this thread, I haven't gotten updates for many, many months... Hopefully I get them now! I've gotta read where the discussion has gone now...

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

@smstevenms

I enjoy entertaining your view. There is definitely something bigger than this universe going on.

You can't argue science. If the body runs on energy and energy continues to exist in some form, where does that energy go, after the body goes?

Still,

For those who can handle a very open minded view of it all, check out the free movie, called Zeitgeist The Movie. The beginning is weird as heck, but it gets very revealing, as you get into it.

Example: Did you know, that it is illegal for the Government, to collect a Federal Income Tax? Just listen to what these former IRS agents have to say, in this movie.

[fukuda 351]

You can't argue science. If the body runs on energy and energy continues to exist in some form, where does that energy go, after the body goes?quote>

Energy in the body is chemically stored, be it on glucose, fat acids or directly into the energy exchange units, adenosyne triphosphate (ATP). Energy is stored in the phosphate bounds, in a material way, not in a free electric-like way. That energy is spent to make cells work, regulate temperature, make movements, etc. A big part of it is thus freed in form of thermal energy (temperature) when we're alive. When we die, bacteria and other living beings consume our body. Eating our energy reserves to live.

EDIT 1:

btw, I hope Zeitgeist is a joke, I'm still watching it, but all the information it tells about Horus, Dyonisos et al. is completely false, just check it for yourselfOh and by the way, the southern cross is near the stellar southern pole and is impossible to see from Israel's latitude

EDIT 2: I forced myself to watch it, I formulated a nice equation to describe the film:

Zeitgeist  = falsehoods about religion + anti-government paranoia + 9/11 conspiracy + anti-bank feeling