The SimTropolis House of Worship

[thesonofgray 0]

Fun convo.

jglei:  I don't want to speak for moganite, but I would like to say a couple of things about your response to him.  Think about the "benefits" for believing in a religion such as Christianity.  Now think of the "benefits" of believing in science.  From my perspective, religion brings happiness and closure to people because: it gives them something to belong to, it tells them the answers of things unexplainable, it is never changing and a stable force in their life, and it gives them the idea of life after death - and in turn never actually "dying".

What does science give to its believers?  Science, while attempting to explain things, can't explain everything and never will.  Science is not unchanging and something we believe to be true for centuries can change in an instant - it has uncertainty.  And, as far as I know, science does not allow for a life after death in a spirit sense.  Life after death in science is the death and end of you and the beginning of new life for someone or something else.  Science doesn't give me a warm tingly feeling inside because science does not love me.  And many times, science can be a brutal and unforgiving thing.

From the looks of it (me point of view), there are a lot more benefits (emotionally) for believing in Christianity then believing in science.  But I believe those benefits are false ones and mask the truth.

...and I could also contend that the reason that science appears so greatly to be AGAINST Christianity is that it was this at the heart of many of its origins.quote>

I don't think that's true.  Science isn't some big conspiracy conjured up by the evil athiests out there to overthrow established religion.  In an earlier era, science and religion were very much intertwined with respect to participants, funding , etc.  Then came about the "unholy" sciences that had the possibility of disproving the Bible or the speakers of the Bible.  From there I think science and religion had a uneasy relationship.

It seems to me, when great theologians also meddled in science, they tend to pick and choose what they want to believe and such.  They will accept the norms and the science that makes common sense, but if it might have any possibility of rejecting the Church, they will scoff at science and dismiss it as some sort of devil worship.  It's similar to those who claim to be Christian but pick and choose what they want to believe and follow in the Bible.

My point is this, you can be religious and study science in the same breath.  But one of the fundamentals in science is the scientific method - and if a theory does not pass the scrutiny of the scientific method, then it is only a theory.  So if you wanted to believe in a god, but study and believe in science, you must be open to the fact that this god could very well not exist, since it is still only a "theory".  But most religious followers are too stubborn to even think that their god might not exist - and that does not work in science.

The Family Guy:

I think the real question here is: Does anyone believe that God exists? And if so, then why?quote>

As opposed to a fake question? No, I don't believe that God exists.  But since I have an open mind, I am willing to accept that He exists when I have sufficient reason to do so.  (similar to how science works)

[The_Family_Guy 2]

jglei: That is THE top reason why I MUST believe in God. Signs of intelligent design are everywhere.

As I've stated, many scientists agree with the fact that signs of God (or whatever you believe is the diety) are even in our DNA. Everything around us is so incredibly complicated that it is hard not to credit God with existance.

I've seen people around me miraculously healed. Just 3 months ago, an older lady at church went to the doctor for her chemo. After months of diligent prayer and belief in Isaiah 53, and the end of Mark, she returned days later to find out that the cancer had completely disappeared. The doctors were dumbfounded, dismayed, taken aback, etc, etc. The same thing happened with a man and his jaw cancer.

Same thing with a woman and her back pain. Same thing occurs throughout many faithful churches throughout the country.

I can't sit in church and not believe in the healing power of God.

jglei, I'd love to hear/read that story. I'll admit, I had no idea what Occam's Razor was until I looked it up. I'll agree with you on that too. The simplicity of God is actually very complicated. I've seen dozens of documentaries on a mulitude of channels that examines the validity of God in modern science. Each program dissects the complicated world of microorganisms, DNA, the universe, the stars, etc, and seems to relate the extemely complexity of existance to some kind of intelligent design.

Occam's razor is a very lazy theory, and I hope that no one resorts to it. I believe whole-heartedly that everything should be studied as much as possible; the problem lies in the mis-information.

Please don't misconstrue anything in this post. God is incredibly complicated.

[The_Family_Guy 2]

TOG: Lol, no, not a fake question. I'm just trying to force the basics out of some of the people in this forum. There is alot of scholarship in this thread, and I think some of it leads away from the simplicity of belief. I understand why you have no sufficient reason for His existance. You must realize that my mind is open as well; I just keep seeing and studying things that reinforce my beliefs almost everyday.

I also love science. It makes some of the best televison, too (NOVA is my favorite program on earth).

Gotta end this though, time for some comida.

[thesonofgray 0]

Your entire first post, The Family Guy, is simply giving up.  Just because something is complicated doesn't mean it is past our understanding.  Attributing complexity to God is giving up.

The same goes for "miracles".  Do you remember my story of my mother having to brake hard to avoid hitting a car?  If you don't I'll repeat it later.  Just because something is improbable, doesn't mean it can't happen under the natural course of things.  People get cured of cancer all the time.  And back pain is sometimes contributed to an offset disk, which, if corrected, releases that person from such pain anymore.

The "evidence " you speak of is nothing more than improbable occurances.  If you go into a doctor's office and he diagnoses you with some disease, there is a 99% chance you will die and a measly 1% chance that you will be cured.  The doctor is most likely to tell you the bad news of your impending death.  But then you are miraculously cured.  God's intervention?  No, more like you are the 100th person and you won.  The same goes for everything that happens.  There might be a very high probability that someone will, let's say, fly to Alaska from Texas.  But there is always that small chance that someone will drive.  Miracle?  No.

So then you might ask, well who is the one who decides who get's cured or drives to Alaska?  I would answer, not God - not anyone.  Those events occur by the contribution of an almost infinte number of natural factors.  A cause and effect sequence so complex that you might want to attribute it to God.  But I think it is a completely natural course of events that, if you wanted to spend a lifetime, you could decipher the many reasons and events that lead up to me driving to Alaska instead of flying.

Also, do you think that one lady was the only person to pray to God for a cure to her illness?  What about all of the other devout followers who died of natural or unnatural causes?  And if God does decide everything, why did he give cancer to those and then decide who lives and who dies?  The typical response: don't question God's actions!!  Well, too bad.  That is just a response to avoid an undesired answer.  What about those athiests or undevout followers who get cured of illness?  See, miracles are just a unprobable event that the religious like to use to validate their beliefs.

I really need to do...DUM DUM DUM - homework.  "Welcome back to college, now go read that 500 page book by tomorrow." sigh

[The_Family_Guy 2]

The reason that I sound like I'm giving up is because there is just no changing anyone's minds. Especially in this forum. I firmly believe in God's miracles, and I think that's that.

Frankly, it just comes down to faith, and what exactly you believe in. I happen to believe that the "infinite" factors are so improbable mathematically that there must be some God to attribute this to. I believe even Confuscious said something to that effect.

I also have a billion pages to read for college, too, so imma go do that. Go figure, Labor Day holds the most work.

[Meg 368]

Yes, I believe God exists.  I don't know that I can explain why to someone who doesn't believe this.  It's not something I can "prove".  I do believe I have experienced God touching my life personally.  I believe that I have experienced, as best I understand the concept, "grace".  

I do not make the leap that, just because I believe in God, that I therefore must believe that one particular religion has a monopoly on the truth.    I do not believe that is true.  I believe there is truth outside of the parameters of what every religion teaches.

Originally posted by: The_Family_Guy 

I've seen people around me miraculously healed. Just 3 months ago, an older lady at church went to the doctor for her chemo. After months of diligent prayer and belief in Isaiah 53, and the end of Mark, she returned days later to find out that the cancer had completely disappeared. The doctors were dumbfounded, dismayed, taken aback, etc, etc. The same thing happened with a man and his jaw cancer.

Same thing with a woman and her back pain. Same thing occurs throughout many faithful churches throughout the country.

quote>

 

Same thing occurs outside of churches.  I, myself, am a case in point.

I started flunking cancer screenings about 20 years ago.  (I have a family history of cancer; more details here, if you are interested.)   So I got to do the comprehensive tests, not the screenings.  About ten years ago, it got to the point where they wanted to do a biopsy.   I went in for the biopsy a week after the comprehensive tests that I had flunked.

But, it turns out, they couldn't do the biopsy.  They "couldn't locate the target".  They ran me through the whole series of comprehensive tests again.  They compared the films from that day to the films a week earlier.  The mass they wanted to biopsy had disappeared.

They asked me what I had done; did I take some pills or vitamins or what?  I told them that I had gone into a meditative state and had a discussion with the mass.  I acknowledged that my life was in a stressful period and that this could provide an opportunity to take a not-very-fun time out from all of the stuff that was going on.   I thanked it for the opportunity but said I was declining, that I would deal with things another way but thanks for the reminder to get things in order.

The doctors looked at me like I was crazy and told me it didn't work that way.    I replied that, well, yes, it does but they were still welcome to biopsy me if they wanted to.  They said they couldn't, there was nothing to biopsy and sent me away.

Assign whatever explanation you'd like to that story.  I don't know what the official record says.  and, so far, I haven't flunked that particular set of screenings since then.  I've flunked the screenings for other types of cancer but that's another story.

[moganite 4]

As I have been involved in setting up a group for custom content I have been a bit busy n the last 2 hrs online anyways.

Jeglei

I never said that god  and religion was a giant hoax but then since I disected the rest of the family guys post so thourghly you apear to assume i said that. Just that anything im the bible needs independent verification  just as would be required of any other source of informayion to establish its credibility.

Science while subject to human bias has a way round that Before a theaory is accepted as fact it must have evidnce that is observable to back it up therefore it has to make a prediction that a givien  system will do something under certain condtions.

Also I never did state "all religions are  wrong" as you put just those that advocate killing someone just for not believing and de humanising  anyone different therefore poetinailly evil.

Also 90 + percent you quoted where does that 90 percent live and where do the nonbelievers live and whats the link between literacy a belief in religion. In general high literacy rates indicate lower  levels of belief in god than areas with low literacy. That means the catholic church leadership is getting more and more islaoted from the bulk of its flock in poor countires as that is where the bulk of catholics reside. The same is probably true of other religions though i am not sure.

As far  as Seeing god working in wonderful ways i thing it is really the people you surround yourself with surround you self with high quality and ethical people and you will have  a more meaningful life and career

Finaly as babies the world is totaly new new and we have not experince of it how do we get experince. Simple form an idea/hypothesis and try out the idea and watch the results.  that is eactly what science boils down to look at the world, ask questions, test it out, observe, ask a new question. and alot of people can't understand that. At its most basic level science is curiosity and that is its motivation what happens if I do this.

I think you can learn the world works through actions and  consequences, and that  the brain will seek out a structure like that.

TSOG

I don't think that's true.  Science isn't some big conspiracy conjured up by the evil athiests out there to overthrow established religion.  In an earlier era, science and religion were very much intertwined with respect to participants, funding , etc.  Then came about the "unholy" sciences that had the possibility of disproving the Bible or the speakers of the Bible.  From there I think science and religion had a uneasy relationship.

It seems to me, when great theologians also meddled in science, they tend to pick and choose what they want to believe and such.  They will accept the norms and the science that makes common sense, but if it might have any possibility of rejecting the Church, they will scoff at science and dismiss it as some sort of devil worship.  It's similar to those who claim to be Christian but pick and choose what they want to believe and follow in the Bible.quote>

With the new Pope pro intelligent design I dont see does that mean that the  chiurch will also reject isac Newton, Galleilo, Columbus and all other scienctists as Evil? or is it more of just the church trying to hold onto its remaining power. The biggest threat to the churches authourity is Deomcracy and literacy. Is it any coincidence that the cultures that make the biggest strides technologically ans cientifically  are those that did not have Authoritatian/totalarian regimes at their cores. That is people who are able to ask questions will advance techologically far faster than one where ordinary people can't. This is the reason why until it crusades the muslims were as advanced as any other people until they went authoritarian and had god / religion interfering in the fields of inquiry. It also explains quite well why there has been no real scientiffic progress in the last 500 years in theocratic regimes because the keep bangin thier heads into t you can't challenge gods word and ask questions Ask a question burn at the stake.

That is the medieval mentality you asked a question, burn at the stake. yYu are accused fo witch, craft burn at the stake. You do anything not expressly approved in bible or other religous text, burn at the stake. You want to improve your lot in life, burn at the stake. You want to make things easier, burn at the stake.

Do you realy want that back? a police state  or theocratic state without the freedoms we all take for granted believers included. That includes what to wear shaving eat and every facet of your life including when you go to the bathroom/ take breath. You may find that apealing but I definetly find it abhorrent.

The Family Guy

jglei: That is THE top reason why I MUST believe in God. Signs of intelligent design are everywhere.

As I've stated, many scientists agree with the fact that signs of God (or whatever you believe is the diety) are even in our DNA. Everything around us is so incredibly complicated that it is hard not to credit God with existance.quote>

Ok can you find a bit of DNA that encodes  "property of god DNA version 1.0 final release  patent pending 1st day of creation"? As far as i am aware there is none . I dont think of it as being terribly complex. Understand the rules and you can using simple tools make something so complex you could never hope to understand it all. Technology is a bit like that but ususally then it is understood how it works etc.

 Then thereis also mathematics where if you can prove something and obatian mathematic proof it is true always and never false with 100 percent certainity.  What would you do if there was a away to disprove the existence of god? Andwhat if it was a mathematical proof as it stands on the  shoulders of everyone from the giant  right down to the fellow who worked out 1+1=2 and the concept of zero. Would numbers then be pronouced as evil and tools of the devil? would calulators burn ? would anyone that knoew how to add up be burt at the stake. what if they wrote it down would all grapic images be banned except the holy text?

If so then you are wanting a thocratic state in total and blind obedience to god and kill anyone who doesn't  obey as it is written by magic in a book or tablet.

 

I've seen people around me miraculously healed. Just 3 months ago, an older lady at church went to the doctor for her chemo. After months of diligent prayer and belief in Isaiah 53, and the end of Mark, she returned days later to find out that the cancer had completely disappeared. The doctors were dumbfounded, dismayed, taken aback, etc, etc. The same thing happened with a man and his jaw cancer.

Same thing with a woman and her back pain. Same thing occurs throughout many faithful churches throughout the country.

I can't sit in church and not believe in the healing power of God. quote>

That is jsut anecdote and is she still alive now? and how long ago did this happen. Sometimes the immune system can se cancer cells and kill them infact it more than you care to admit like almost every day of your life it is only those that  look normal that become cancers or tumours so if the body then recognizes the threst then spontaneous cure for cancer is possible but very unlikely. Doe that mean if i come down with HIV and believe in the power of god REALLY hard I wil be cured? without any treatment? Thats seriously as dodgy as Madonna claiming that a mystical watery fluid can decontaminate Chernoybl.

jglei, I'd love to hear/read that story. I'll admit, I had no idea what Occam's Razor was until I looked it up. I'll agree with you on that too. The simplicity of God is actually very complicated. I've seen dozens of documentaries on a mulitude of channels that examines the validity of God in modern science. Each program dissects the complicated world of microorganisms, DNA, the universe, the stars, etc, and seems to relate the extemely complexity of existance to some kind of intelligent design.

Occam's razor is a very lazy theory, and I hope that no one resorts to it. I believe whole-heartedly that everything should be studied as much as possible; the problem lies in the mis-information. 

Please don't misconstrue anything in this post. God is incredibly complicated.quote>

Its obvious you have never heard of self organising systems. That is systems that organise them selves from disorder. Lets see stars planets under gravity, protiens in soultion to DNA weather, shaken  packets of cornflakes, the  flocks of birds, neurons in the brain. The list goes on and on.

Finaly can you point us to the IP depar ment of God Enterprises so I can complain to them about the design of my sinuses, back, knees, heart, liver, eyes, teeth, ribs fingers  brain,  apendix. Also can you awnser why do men have nipples? infact why do all male mamals have nipples. Why bother with sex after all there are plenty of species that get on just fine cloning themselves? Why 2 genders at all? why more than 1 cell? why plants? why is the sky blue? how do i see? why do objects fall? why do they stop moving?  where di i come from?

And the list goes on and on forever. you see thats the beautiful thing and most frustrating thing at the same time about  kids they keep asking questions.

[thesonofgray 0]

To Each Their Own.

[jglei701 8]

I wish I had the time to respond, I'm afraid I've gotta go to bed though, as well. This discussion is quite interesting, and I actually do have a retort for many, if not all the points/questions raised.

The one clarifying point I want to make regarding my Occam's Razor point is that I use it, generally, as a rather lazy tool, more than as an argument in and of itself. I have done very much investigation into the issue and the reoccuring answer to the questions have been God, through and through. You can say I've been decieved, or brain-washed, you can make fun of my beliefs, or myself, even, and when it ultimately comes down to it, it isn't going to change the things that have happened in my life that point away from meaningless chance and happenstance, and right to order, intelligence, guidance, and PURPOSE.

I had another point to make, but I forgot it 'cause I'm really tired... maybe I'll remember tomorrow!

[thesonofgray 0]

Just a quick thought.  It seems to me that the very religious or faithfull have always had something happen in their life that either immediately changed their views on God or absolutely reinforces them.  Something like a near death experience?  Or a time of extreme sadness?  (just speculation)

That would make since, though.  Since this God is supposed to always love you and be there for you  (I wish humans would do a little of that) and provide the means to an afterlife.  I am not here to judge or ridicule - just to state my own beliefs.  And it makes perfect sense from a physcological standpoint that someone who had a bad experience in life would turn to God.  It still doesn't make him real to me, though.

--

On a somewhat off-topic direction, today in my Transportation Engineering Systems class we talked about placing a value on human life.  For example, there are programs that will tell you where to place a fire station for optimal response time.  Like, if you have a so and so city and wanted the average response time to be 10 minutes, it would tell you to place so many fire station here and there.  But then my professor was like, what if you don't have that many resources?  Well, you have to increase the response time to 15 minutes and see if that works.  So you have to play around with the response time (which is almost directly proportional to fatalities) and see which one fits the right price.

He continued to say that transportation engineers often get criticized by the public and public officials because of this, but who is the one actually placing a price on life?  He cited a study that had to do with children on airplanes.  As it is now, children under 2 can ride free (domestic flights) in the parent's lap.  But it is a fact that a child is much more likely to recieve a fatal injury without its own seat. 

So they surveyed a whole bunch of mothers and gave them this info and then asked them, "So now that you know that your child is at a much higher risk of injury and even death, would you pay X amount of dollars for their own ticket and seat?"  They would modify the X for different people and they were actually able to find an average price that mothers place on their babie's life.  (Unfortunately, my professor didn't mention the price, but he did say it was significantly lower than the average price for a plane ticket.)

I just thought that was interesting.  It really brings it down to reality to realize that I might just be computing numbers and developing layouts, but I'm also making an indirect decision on who might live and who might die.  **shiver**

Would you pay 25% more on your property taxes to decrease the response time for emergency vehicles in your area?

Not such a quick thought afterall.

[The_Family_Guy 2]

It's a pity that resources are scarce in some areas for a simple thing like a fire station. Public safety should be the first thing on the mind of any local government.

Children should be the first ones secure on an airplane. I find it ironic that no one has taken any recognizable provisions. Accidents WILL happen, and as long as they do, we must be adequately prepared to handle them.

Unfortunately, all anyone can think about is money, money, money. It's great to have money, but it's just not our number one priority. That money must be allocated to our main safety concerns: homeland security, local protection, defense efforts, etc.

I don't think it would be 25%, but certainly I would pay extra taxes to fund a new firestation. The question is WHO is paying those taxes...but I don't think this is the thread for that...

I'm tired zzzzzz

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

When God wants a child that sets an example for others or needs to lead other children; His need is one who has experience first hand.

Who better to teach those who need emotional healing, than one who has been healed first.

The Bible explains how the faithful are tested by fire. The word test is more elaborate here than it seems. To test in the fire, is a blacksmith term, that hardens metal.

Parable is this:

The child is burned in the hottest flame, the flame is set for a specific metal an so the child must also become something more than a lump of iron.

Once the child is hot and melting and weakened, the hammer is immediately taken up to shape the metal into a form that can be used.

Once the child has made this trial that changes him/her, the cool water quickly cools the shaped metal and it hardens. This is the choice of the believer to follow in faith and learn the best way possible.

 This child can be left to rest for next days work or the process can be repeated, continually testing the child, until the metal is so hard and so well shaped, that it becomes something extremely useful.

The more fires the child endures the harder the metal is and the life of the metal more efficient.

The child that follows in faith may be tested by lifes tribulation, but becomes the wisest and strongest because of this.

[jglei701 8]

Anybody home? The conversation here just dropped like a rock!

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

I am always around Jglei701. Just not as much since my publicity gig started.

I hang out with some pretty crazy people now of days, but they respect the fact that I don't drink that beer they keep trying to buy me. I have to stay focused and make contacts and good impression, while at the same time keeping with the atmosphere we are in.

Parables are how Jesus taught others, and teaching by parable is one of my Spiritual gifts.

I also find many of them I have posted here, by personal observations.

Spirit and physical are connected in everything and all the answers fit the two planes, in only one faith based eternal message; The Bible my friend. No others do it so precisely, or so beyond mans abilities to create such an inter-woven script.

[jglei701 8]

Parables you want? Parables you'll get! The youth group I work with is in the middle of a series on Luke 15, Parable of the Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, Lost Son. Discuss!

[timotheus4 39]

A couple of years ago my pastor preached a very interesting sermon on the Prodigal Son...actually, he titled it "The Prodigal Sons".

[thesonofgray 0]

I disagree!  j/k

I'm still lurking around...but I don't have nearly the time I had in the summer now that I'm taking real engineering classes and none of that intro bull.  Also, I'm super busy trying to find a co-op for the next semester and **cross you fingers** I appear to have a very promising interview with a group called KSA Engineers here in Austin this Thursday.  If I get the job, it pushes back my graduation by a semester but I get full time real-world experience for 3 semesters while making ≈$3,000 a month.  Not bad for a undergrad junior in college, eh?

Ah well, either way I don't really have time for the jibber jabber from back in the good old days...lucky you.   Discuss and share in peace and tranquility my friends...

[The_Family_Guy 2]

This was a great thread indeed. I miss the heated arguments, but I think we were all just going in circles, don't ya think?

Anywho, I similarly have college (freshman year). I'm currently in political science, but I'm bored of it (go figure). Probably going to switch to Digital Arts. Plus now I'm playing WoW, so yeah.

Ah the great times in this thread...is Dev even still around? Haven't seen him...ever!

[moganite 4]

I also like the discussuions and yes i thought that we had all just ended up chasing each others tails. Still it keeps the grey matter healthy. I will be here and checking up on it when I am at ST which is still quite often.

Well I have had a bit of work and NHP is keeping me busy though we haven't got many releases. I still play simcity but i am also into TS2.

The Family Guy: hope you enjoy it, best thing to do is something you enjoy doing.

[dev 47]

Wow...interesting to see this is still going...and nothing really has been accomplished through it either...Just running each other down over and over with various viewpoints and theories...

Anyways...funny to see it's still here.

[The_Family_Guy 2]

Sweet sig dev.

Yeah, this thread never changed anyone's opinion at all! I think it was just a place to express our deepest beliefs. It's good to reminisce.

[thesonofgray 0]

If this thread didn't change your opinion, reinforce your beliefs, or enlighten you in any way - then you really missed out.

And that's just too bad.

[jglei701 8]

I don't think this thead is a waste.... What was it that the Bible says? "So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish wht I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." Isaia 55:11

Perhaps this thead did not manage to bring forth the type of "rejoicing in the presence of the angels fo God over one sinner who repents," (Luke 15:10) but I know, for one that I was edified by the discussion and challenged to learn more about my faith than when I originally discovered the thread.

...Ironically, (or perhaps not) this brings us right to the parable of the lost son!

I've got some interesting context on how this parable would have been interpreted "back in the day..." It definately would have been recieved differently then than now, but it certainly applies now, just as it did then!

[thesonofgray 0]

It is most definately recieved differently now than it did then but we can then go back to then now to see how it did then than now so now it is like it is then!  Err...right!

Please don't try to make sense of that - for the sake of your well being.

Anyways, jglei as well as I have very different beliefs but we were able to come together, discuss and debate, all while benefiting in different -yet the same- way.  The point is that diversity can survive and thrive when diversity is discussed instead of shying away from controversial and "pointless" topics.  The same can be applied to many things.  Ignorance, I believe, is the root of hate.  And ignorance can only be avoided with openness and discussion.

Now off my soap box and into bed.

[thundercrack83 0]

Originally posted by: dev

If you came upon a painting in the woods, you would know there had to of been a painter. Look at this vast world, look at how advanced so much of the animal kingdom is. A creator is the only logical answer to this...

quote>

The flaw with this argument is that you don't know that a creator did it, you only believe that a creator did. The problem with not only Christianity, but with religions as a whole is that they cannot simply say, "I don't know."

Look at how the entire concept of religion began: As a means to "explain the unexplainable." Ancient civilizations believed that there was a sun god, but it has since been proven that the sun is a mass of hydrogen, helium, and heavier elements. The same thing applies today, only with such questions as evolution and how the universe was created. These questions, like the questions about the sun, will eventually be answered to disprove the "creator" theory, it is only a matter of time and technology. By then, it will be other fundamental questions that cannot be answered that religion will then encompass.

That being said, there is a huge difference to me between "faith" and "religion." What you are describing can be categorized as faith, which is completely fine. Religion, on the other hand, is the human manifestation of faith and there is no way of really knowing that what a religion practices is really what God wants done. Religion is the middle man, and never trust the middle man. How many horrible acts have been committed in the name of religion that no God would ever sanction? Prior to the Civil War, Southern ministers and churchgoers justified enslaving black people because they felt that blacks were the descendants of Noah who were cursed into enslavement. Not to mention the countless things the Catholic Church did during the Middle Ages "in the name of Jesus Christ," and even today with the allegations of abuse and harboring sexual predators. (Robin Williams: "It's not just a sin, it's a felony!") Religions are too often hypocritical and contradictory. As a person of faith, can you honestly tell me that is wht Jesus would have wanted?

Now, I come from a Christian home and was raised as a Christian, so I'm not trying to bash your beliefs or anything like that. However, if you show up at my house at 6 AM asking me if I've been saved, I won't be happy.

[s.i.X 13]

"If you beliefs are cracked or shattered by an outside opinion then thats your weakness"

So if I strongly believe that drinking bleach will be good for me, and there are people standing around me enforcing that, if I give in to your opinion that the bleach will kill me I am weak?

[hamsterTK 93]

So if I strongly believe that drinking bleach will be good for me, and there are people standing around me enforcing that, if I give in to your opinion that the bleach will kill me I am weak?quote>

There is a difference between opinion and fact. it is a fact that bleach is not meant to be ingested

[jglei701 8]

Originally posted by: thundercrack83 

but it has since been proven that the sun is a mass of hydrogen, helium, and heavier elements. quote>

You make some interesting points thundercrack, but the arguments you cite as fact (IE The makeup of the sun) can be theorized upon by science, but which scientists have actually been to the sun?  Science can hypothesize and theorize, but what can science prove absolutely?  I contrend that science can not prove anything absolutely.

The same thing applies today, only with such questions as evolution and how the universe was created. These questions, like the questions about the sun, will eventually be answered to disprove the "creator" theory, it is only a matter of time and technology. By then, it will be other fundamental questions that cannot be answered that religion will then encompass. quote>

How can you be so sure?  Darwin himself said that his theory would be confirmed by the fossil record in the not-to-distant future from his writing of "Origin of Species"... and 150 years later, it still hasn't been proven.  Just a few thoughts.

[DOXXP29 5]

Well, I think science can pretty much positively prove that if you drink enough bleach, you will die. And since people have drank bleach and died and their death was, in fact witnessed as having been caused by the ingestion of bleach, then it can be pretty much considered a proven fact. Now, when these same bleach drinkers die and at the funeral, the preacher says "Oh, Mr. Bleachdrinker was a good (insert religion of choice here) so he's now in heaven (or the equivalent thereof)" this is hypothesis. Has anyone actually witnessed Mr. Bleachdrinker go to heaven? In fact, has anyone actually BEEN to heaven to prove that it exists? Many people BELIEVE it exists. Hey, that's cool. But until someone can actually prove there is a heaven (or hell, or purgatory, etc.) these are all speculative beliefs and conjecture by religious authorities, elders, whatever. In fact, not only can the existence of a heaven not be proven, it can't even be proven which religion has a greater validity. So, we have many speculative guesses of where Mr. Bleachdrinker went, but we have one fact...the bleach killed him. There is a difference.

[thundercrack83 0]

Jglei701: No scientist has been to the sun...yet. My point is that time and technology will ultimately answer questions that right now what cannot answer and, rather than wait for those answers, religions make up answers that they have no way of knowing is true, in order to pacify people and keep them from jumping out of windows. Like I said above, my problem really isn't with the belief, it's with the religion. When people who have no possible way of knowing what happens when I die start telling me they know, THEN pass around a plate and expect me to put money in it, I get a bit annoyed. I said it above, and it bears repeating: Religion is the middle man, and never trust the middle man.

As for this whole bleach scenario, I don't really know what the point was, but drinking bleach is definitely not a good idea, whether your religion tells you to or not. But if you do drink bleach, do not induce vomiting and call you local poison control center.