The SimTropolis House of Worship

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: jglei701 Skigeek,

These are not commands to hate, these are instructions NOT to hate. I fully disagree with anyone who hates another person because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, height, weight, sex, or hair color (not an exclusive list). If Jesus walked the earth today, would he be preaching in the giant mega-churches in the suburbs? I know churches like this that sell Starbucks coffee and have bookstores and other things I would consider merchandise. Did not Jesus overturn the tables of the money changers in the Temple?

No, Jesus would be in the heart of the inner city, with unwed mothers, druggies, homeless people, drunks.

quote>

I agree with you completely here.

I believe God does not want us to hate each other.  However, many so-called extremely religious people find it difficult, if not impossible, to discuss "those other people" without resorting to hatred, or at least condemnation.  Of course who "those other people" are is entirely dependent on the extremist.  All of the flavors seem to have something against the other flavors.  Usually that "my way is the only way" idea, which I consider to be the single most destructive idea on the planet.

quote>

 

Yes, that is absolutely true. God loves us, absolutely right. However, it must also be remembered that Jesus didn't come to say cool-sounding quotes (Confucius would do) or only to make us feel all nice and fuzzy inside (a counsellor would suffice perhaps??). Jesus said that He came to bring the sword as well (can't remember the passage). 

In this world of eternal forgiveness and redemption and lack of penance, it's so easy to overlook the fact that God is a jealous God and that He too, made Hell for a reason. 

If there was eternal forgiveness irrespective of what you do, why go to all the trouble of making Hell?? What's the point of His saying "be mindful of your sins!!"?? Why do you think that the Church (Catholic or otherwise) has always preached the repenting of sins and the need to be good??

Has God suddenly had a change of heart?? Has He become that much more tolerant just out of the blue that He can accept the abominations and vices of this world??? Or has His eternal, unchanging, ummutable Word been warped by men of this world who seek to please the wants and whims of men??

Surely, God didn't change just because the world underwent a liberalisation of morals these past few decades........

Sometimes, I think that I focus too much on the God of justice and punishment as opposed to the God of love. But with pretty much all Christians preaching blind love nowadays, I think that it's best to try and even the scales a little. =)

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: ephorex_77

Jesus said that He came to bring the sword as well (can't remember the passage). 

quote>

Matthew 10:34

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I think this passage actually backs up Ski's and TSOG's points. Why would an all powerful deity need to bring war? I too can't believe this is what God would want or need.

[jglei701 8]

Only got a couple of minutes...

Sam,

In modern athletics, weightlifting builds strength and makes one player stronger than another. But do you know how the process works? The muscles must be torn, must be broken down, before they can be rebuilt. When they heal, they become bigger and stronger.

This is, in a way, how I see the world. We, as a species, as humankind, need to grow. In order to do this, there must be a breakdown of the bad, to build more of the good. This isn't a perfect example, but, again, I've only got like 2 mins.

In the book of James, it talks about this:

James 1:2-4

2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

God uses this idea of strengthening by breaking down on a very basic, individual level, but I think it also applies to all humans, mankind.

Because, lost in all of this, as Ephorex pointed out, is that God is not only a loving God. Does he love us all? Yes, he does. But, with that free will that TSOG was talking about, we can either choose to follow God, or to not follow him. And even if we follow him, we still do things our own way, we still turn away. Think of this like a parent. If a child does something that is very bad or that is going to hurt them, the parent punishes the child so that it doesn't again. Though it HURTS a parent to hurt (not necesarily physically, it could be emotionally, by taking away something they like) their child, they know in the end that one smaller pain will soon pass, but the bigger pain would do permenant damage.

So, like I said, God is loving, he loves each of us more than we can possibly imagine. But he is JUST as well. Because we have free will, and God has told us what is right and wrong (like we didn't already know...) how loving a parent would he be if he just allowed us to go on hurting ourselves?

So, in this way, God allows bad things to happen to us, so that we grow. With that free will, some turn towards God, and some turn away. It's their own choice.

For those who turn to God, he is merciful and kind. They accept the forgiveness God set out for them. For those who turn away, they reap the crop they have sown. This is the CHOICE they have made!

I will say one final thing. Is there something that God hates? Yes, there is. It is sin and disobedience. But this is a personal choice we each make every day. How am I going to live my life today? Am I going to do it my way, or am I going to do it God's way? God has said:

John 14:10

10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: ephorex_77 

. . . it's so easy to overlook the fact that God is a jealous God . . .

quote>

Jealous?  It makes no sense to me that an all-knowing, all-powerful Being would be that petty.  Jealous of what, exactly?

If there was eternal forgiveness irrespective of what you do, why go to all the trouble of making Hell?? quote>

I don't believe that He did.

What's the point of His saying "be mindful of your sins!!"?? Why do you think that the Church (Catholic or otherwise) has always preached the repenting of sins and the need to be good??

quote>

Because most "sins" involve mistreating other people or mistreating oneself.   That is not how God wants us to behave.

Sometimes, I think that I focus too much on the God of justice and punishment as opposed to the God of love. But with pretty much all Christians preaching blind love nowadays, I think that it's best to try and even the scales a little. =)quote>

 

The "God of justice and punishment" is one reason why many people are unwilling to accept Christianity.  Speaking solely for myself, in order to become a "Christian" by your standards, I would have to reduce my belief in God , recasting Him as petty, hateful, and jealous.    To me, that would be an insult to God as I know Him.

Originally posted by: sam

Originally posted by: ephorex_77

Jesus said that He came to bring the sword as well (can't remember the passage). 

quote>

Matthew 10:34

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I think this passage actually backs up Ski's and TSOG's points. Why would an all powerful deity need to bring war? I too can't believe this is what God would want or need.quote>

 

Thank you, sam.   That's exactly what I mean.

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

This may sound angry, but honestly it is rightiously felt and not an attack

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace (man took away the peace)to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.(man makes this choice)

The sword is for defense of the tortured innocent. Why would a LOVING God allow the evil ones to keep torturing the bystanders, who did not ask to be involved? Did not Jesus also say that the outcry of the innocent would be heard in Heaven? How can you guys assume that swords are always for uninvited attacks?? Jesus was saying that His sword would RESCUE us! Gee whiz.

Why is it that people see the word sword and think  a loving person has no right to use one??

How can anyone even re-post it a second time as an example?

Does anyone here really understand unconditional love? Justice HAS TO BE A PART OF unconditional Love or love could NOT survive at all.

Okay, when my daughter shoots her friend in the head; I will just sit back and let her get away with it, because I love her so much. No punishment at all and no justice for the other friend. That way she can teach it to her two children when she grows up and they can teach it to their four children when they grow up and they can teach it to their eight children and..... also not to mention that the friend she shot will have family, that teaches revenge and abuse of law, to their other children, who in turn teach this to all the more children.....meanwhile God will not step in with His sword, because He likes seeing this curse spiral into affecting the innocents and injecting mass false information. all of which leads to more innocent by-standers getting caught up in this unchecked turmoil. Now it leads to world wide violence of epidemic proprtions and it is all becuase we did not teach by example(humans again).

 God has absolutely no choice but to come with a sword, because we chose it that way and the sword of man was already been drawn and used multiple times unjustly, by that point of time.

[thesonofgray 0]

I never seem to really get an answer to this question, but I might as well ask it again.

frndofyaweh, if your daughter actually did shoot another person, or maybe did something of a lesser offense - but it was still an offense - would you allow and support the killing of your daughter as punishment?

Just curious........

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: thesonofgray I never seem to really get an answer to this question, but I might as well ask it again.

frndofyaweh, if your daughter actually did shoot another person, or maybe did something of a lesser offense - but it was still an offense - would you allow and support the killing of your daughter as punishment?

Just curious........quote>

 

If my daughter was so obdurate as to shoot (kill) someone with intent, then I would certainly support her removal from society, be it in gaol for a long period or even life. 

As for her execution, let's read some quotes (whether or not you agree is irrelevant as they reflect my position and I know you're quite...opposed to some of my positions ):

(Romans 13:1-4)

"Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for there exists no authority except from God, and those who exist have been appointed by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists the ordinance of God and they that resist bring on themselves condemnation. For rulers are a terror not to the good work but to the evil. Dost thou wish, then, not to fear the authority? Do what is good and thou wilt have praise from it. For it is God's minister to thee for good. But if thou dost what is evil, fear, for not without reason does it carry the sword. For it is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who does evil." 

St Augustine (5th century)

"The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time. Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" to wage war at God's bidding, or for the representatives of the State's authority to put criminals to death, according to law or the rule of rational justice." 

And before you ask, I won't get into the argument of whether God's authorising of killing is evidence of an "immoral" God. 

Pope Innocent III (1210)

"Concerning secular power we declare that without mortal sin it is possible to exercise a judgment of blood as long as one proceeds to bring punishment not in hatred but in judgment, not incautiously but advisedly."

So, that should make my position quite clear. If she is so contumacious as to be totally beyond redemption (think serial killers), then I would not be a wrathful father by not fighting her death sentence. 

Now, how about you TSOG?? Would you go all out to protect your killer of a daughter if she had proven herself beyond redeeming and she was a great and constant threat to society?? Or would you resign yourself to her execution??

[callagrafx 3]

how on earth could you even think about killing your own daughter, hypothetically or not? Are you actually a parent? Do you not know that the most BASIC parental instinct is the total protection from harm of your progeny? If that's what your religion advocates, you can keep it...Me, I'd fight with every last breath to protect my daughter from harm.

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: ephorex_77 

. . . it's so easy to overlook the fact that God is a jealous God . . .

quote>

Jealous?  It makes no sense to me that an all-knowing, all-powerful Being would be that petty.  Jealous of what, exactly?

If there was eternal forgiveness irrespective of what you do, why go to all the trouble of making Hell?? quote>

I don't believe that He did.

What's the point of His saying "be mindful of your sins!!"?? Why do you think that the Church (Catholic or otherwise) has always preached the repenting of sins and the need to be good??

quote>

Because most "sins" involve mistreating other people or mistreating oneself.   That is not how God wants us to behave.

Sometimes, I think that I focus too much on the God of justice and punishment as opposed to the God of love. But with pretty much all Christians preaching blind love nowadays, I think that it's best to try and even the scales a little. =)quote>

 

The "God of justice and punishment" is one reason why many people are unwilling to accept Christianity.  Speaking solely for myself, in order to become a "Christian" by your standards, I would have to reduce my belief in God , recasting Him as petty, hateful, and jealous.    To me, that would be an insult to God as I know Him.

Originally posted by: sam

Originally posted by: ephorex_77

Jesus said that He came to bring the sword as well (can't remember the passage). 

quote>

Matthew 10:34

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I think this passage actually backs up Ski's and TSOG's points. Why would an all powerful deity need to bring war? I too can't believe this is what God would want or need.quote>

 

Thank you, sam.   That's exactly what I mean.quote>

 

Sorry for the double post, but I thought that it's easier to deal with a separate post. 

The "God of justice and punishment" is one reason why many people are unwilling to accept Christianity.  Speaking solely for myself, in order to become a "Christian" by your standards, I would have to reduce my belief in God , recasting Him as petty, hateful, and jealous.    To me, that would be an insult to God as I know Him. quote>

Sorry to sound rude, but the "God as (you) know Him"?? Does that mean a god that you think should exist in order to conform to your personal view of this universe??

God isn't a chameleon. He doesn't change and move in order to conform to man's views on what He should be. 

And btw, my "standards" are the "standards" that God has "lived up to" since the beginning of time. It's the "standard" that the Christian world has accepted since Christ came to earth. In fact, it's the "standard" that the Hebrew people accepted those thousands of years ago. If you think that it's an insult to God for Him to "live up to" those "standards"......Your idea of God's all-merciful "standards" is a recent phenomena, sorry to say.

Because most "sins" involve mistreating other people or mistreating oneself.   That is not how God wants us to behave. quote>

Yup, God doesn't want us to sin. It says that in the Bible, and the Catholic Church (along with every other church) says that too. You and I seem to agree on that point without qualms. Well, it also says in the Bible and the Church also agrees, that sins are punished. Why do you disagree this time?? Doesn't agree conform to your "standard" of God no doubt??

Jealous?  It makes no sense to me that an all-knowing, all-powerful Being would be that petty.  Jealous of what, exactly? quote>

It says that in the Bible, again, not too sure where. I think it's somewhere when God made the 10 Commandments. And jealous what of?? Well, I presume that it's because when we worship objects of clay and stone and precious metals, we're not worshipping God, the Creator of man. Hence the jealousy. Nothing too complex really. 

And can't God feel jealousy?? Can't God feel just anger?? His mercy and love surpasses our understanding, so what makes it so hard to believe that His immense anger surpasses our understanding too??

I don't believe that He did (make Hell). quote>

Well, I can't say much there can I??

[ephorex_77 0]

EDIT: Again, sorry for the double post

Originally posted by: callagrafx how on earth could you even think about killing your own daughter, hypothetically or not? Are you actually a parent? Do you not know that the most BASIC parental instinct is the total protection from harm of your progeny? If that's what your religion advocates, you can keep it...Me, I'd fight with every last breath to protect my daughter from harm.quote>

 

We can't find agreement on two threads it seems eh??

My religion doesn't actively advocate killing my hypothetical progeny. 

If you allow a snake to live and roam around in a kindergarten (because you don't like to "punish" the snake too much), and then, ten children are killed, are you safe from the law?? Where I live, you're the one who's charged. 

Similarly, if by allowing a dangerous and irreformable person to continue living, we endanger society as a whole, then is that not wrong?? Suppose by society's (back then, "society" was synonymous with the Catholic Church) inaction, ten, or a hundred, or a thousand innocent people die, has not society and the Church failed??

The execution of hardened criminals, just like punishment of any kind, has purgatorial effects on the soul (again, you can tune out if you wish). 

Punishment and justice is served if the wrong is righted. The family or close friend of the person can forgive the offender, but otherwise, justice is to be meted out, and the State has full authority to do so, as emphasised by the Church. Wholesale lynchings are not justice in this sense; the State retains the right to do this. 

I place my God above all else, including my progeny. It is a hard call to make for a parent (I know I've asked this before): "Which kid would you save if you had a chance to save all your kids bar one??", but when it comes to God and everything else, I can say that I would place God first. Being a Christian requires that of you. 

Perhaps you think me an insensitive parent. But a child can be the most loving of people, or he can be, at the opposite end of the spectrum, another Tim McVeigh (or other serial killer/rapist). Think about that. A father/parent loves, but he also punishes, just as God does.

And if you have no compunction in trying to save your child, whose muderous act was committed in full knowledge and malice and irrespective of the fact that he was a irreformable criminal, then that's your choice. 

It seems that this is indicative of a society unused to the alien notion, it seems, of punishment. Have you no thought as to the feelings of the murdered person's family and friends?? Heck, let's not even talk about murder. How about drunk driving or even burglary??

How often is it that you see outrage at the most lenient of sentences handed out to major misdemeanours?? In Melbourne, that seems de rigeur, so to speak, to hand out the lightest of sentences despite intense community outrage. Have we forgotten the most basic of concepts, namely punishment??

A child knows what I'm talking about.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: jglei701 Only got a couple of minutes...

Sam,

In modern athletics, weightlifting builds strength and makes one player stronger than another. But do you know how the process works? The muscles must be torn, must be broken down, before they can be rebuilt. When they heal, they become bigger and stronger.

This is, in a way, how I see the world. We, as a species, as humankind, need to grow. In order to do this, there must be a breakdown of the bad, to build more of the good. This isn't a perfect example, but, again, I've only got like 2 mins.

In the book of James, it talks about this:

James 1:2-4

2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
...quote>

jglei701,

Thanks for the response, I understand a lot of the things you said (and agree with some of them). Although I'm still not sure that I expect God  to be limited to human or naturalistic explanations (however I understand it is an analogy).

James looks to be an interesting book (I am reading through it).  It covers a lot of interesting things which I won't go into here. Although he does mention Abraham's attempted sacrifice of Isaac to God, which I think is relevant to some of the posts above mine (James 2:21 referring to Genesis 22:1-19). Matthew 10 quoted earlier continues:

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
       " 'a man against his father,
       a daughter against her mother,
       a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

36 your enemies will be the members of your own household.

37 "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves a son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Interesting thougths, even though I disagree with them, and probably relevent to the above posts.

I would like to comment on the punishment issue, but may do so tomorrow if the conversation is still on that topic. Its getting late here. Goodnight everyone.

And congratulations jglei on your marraige.


(Edit: sorry for the strange fonts and smileys,  something is  going wrong with this post )

[callagrafx 3]

Taking another human's life as a punishment irrespective of the crime is an outmoded and barbaric act...have we not evolved beyond "an eye for an eye"? And to use your analogy, you don't need to kill the snake, just pick it up and put it in a box.

If being a Christian means that you put your children second, I'm glad I'm an athiest. Children are our legacy, the means by which we live on beyond your mortal years.

Murder as a punishment is no better than the crime that is being punished...Where does it stop?

You will never convince me that it is right to kill, anything for any reason, just as I will never convince you that there are more important things than religion

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
       " 'a man against his father,
       a daughter against her mother,
       a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

36 your enemies will be the members of your own household.

37 "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves a son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. quote>

Yes there will be opposite views of what is right and real in immediate households. A wife may turn in her own husband to authorities, simply because he believes in Christ and she does not.

Thesonofgray: the red text answers it for you; I would cry for her, forgive her, die for her and support a rightious execution of her.
 I love her unconditionally. This means in both extremes, ladies and gentlemen, or "unconditional" means nothing. trying to save a murderer because that murderer is my prodigy; IS a condition and not fare to other fathers who have lost their children this way.

The reason many people do not really understand what the book of James is saying above; because they have accepted societies twisted view of what love actually is all about. Love MUST be fare and equal and yet at the same time classed and clarified.

That only sounds like an oxymoron to those who still think the worlds view of love is the right view.

[thesonofgray 0]

This discussion has made me quite sad.  I mean no disrespect but I am very glad that frndofyaweh or ephorex isn't my father.  I know my parents would do everything in their power to protect their offspring, which would include finding medical or mental health - whichever is needed.  Death as punishment is to give up.  And (my idea of) a good parent should never give up on their child.

^^ That should answer your question, ephorex.

As callgrafx said, there is no need to kill the snake in the playground.  Simply pick him up and move him somewhere else.  It might be a little more difficult than that, but if you make the effort, you have saved both the snake's and the children's lives instead of sacrificing one for another.

I hold to the belief that people can change (in their attitudes).  The problem is a lack of resources to make this happen.  Yes, death does the job of removing someone from society but that is at the expense of life.  There will always be that one exception - the one who can't change - but there are other ways of protecting society other than killing.

If your god was so gracious to create life, then why destroy it without any effort to save it?  Man shot someone?  Kill him.  Woman cheated on her husband?  Kill her.  Child being unruly?  Kill the kid.

  If that is what the Bible teaches then I'm glad half of its followers haven't even read the book.

[jglei701 8]

Ironic, callagrafx, that your avatar is one popularly referred to as "the angel of death." This character's entire being (again, in the popular belief) is that one's deeds will bring forth a certain punishment.

...Exactly what Ephorex and FOY are saying. The judgement just comes on this earth as opposed to waiting for the afterlife (which inevitably will come, as well).

TSOG,

Gandhi had some interesting ideas about how to change people's outlooks and attitudes. He (briefly) felt that through non-violence, one could affect the soul-force, which he believed was everywhere by simply being non-violent in every way. He believed that through burning up bad karma, he could improve his standing, so to speak, and change others' attitudes.

Now, while I don't agree with his ideas and his approach, there is a similar idea prevalent in the Bible. I mentioned it earlier, from Matthew 5:

44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

Prayer isn't just idle words. It is open communication with the living, active God of the universe. I've seen prayer change many people close to me and I've seen it change myself, not in simple things that would probably have happened anyway, but in big, attitude changing, life-changing ways.

Re: the "jealous God" issue. Don't think of jealousy as coveting (or desiring something of someone else's... such as their new car, their new house, their new wife). Think of it as being a longing (possibly not the best word choice) to be the focus of worship and praise. And, because we all have free will, when God recieves this worship, He gives gifts even more freely than He did with the rest of creation! When someone chooses against making God their focal point, then they have chosen against God, and, like any other decision, there are consequences for one's actions.

King Solomon ruled Israel and had just about anything you could ever want. He had weath, knowledge, beautiful women, a great job, house... chariot..? Anything you can think of, he had. He wrote the book of Ecclesiastes about striving for contentment. And do you know what the conclusion was?

Ecc 12:13-14

13 Now all has been heard;

here is the conclusion of the matter:

Fear God and keep his commandments,

for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,

including every hidden thing,

whether it is good or evil.

Many people think that God demands all of these personal sacrifices for those who follow him, but that simply isn't true. Another couple of verses from II Samuel state this:

22 But Samuel replied:

"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices

as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?

To obey is better than sacrifice,

and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,

and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.

Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,

he has rejected you as king."

God doesn't want sacrifice. The sacrifice has already occurred. Jesus paid the ultimate, perfect sacrifice for us. All we must do is accept the gift.

On another note... one question for callagrafx,

You said you would do anything for your offspring. Does that include killing so that they would be saved, even in the case where they (your child) had committed an offense and those who you would kill were the one who was arresting them to be taken?

A couple of interesting perspectives... First, Abraham was commanded by God to kill Isaac. This was a test, which Abraham passed, because he was willing to give up his "most prized possession." And you know what? In the book of James, it says (as Sam mentioned above):

James 2:21-22

21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

All Abraham did was believe God when He said everything would be ok! I mean, God provided a son for Abraham and Sarah when they were 100 years old! Abraham had already seen God do miracles, and he trusted Him, he trusted that when God said it would be alright, that it truly would be alright!

A second interesting perspective in the whole "willing to sacrifice your child" dispute is the one of Jesus. While many of you have said that you would not give up your child if they had committed an offense to be put to death, this is EXACTLY WHAT GOD ALLOWED TO BE DONE TO JESUS! And Jesus had committed no crime! The ultimate price was paid, and Jesus, knowing how much more there truly was to reality than life here on earth, allowed God's will to be done, and He suffered death, and painful, escruciating, humiliating death.

And the kicker was that He rose three days later. And with His death and resurrection, as written up in God's plan for the universe...

John 3:16b-17

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

And this He truly did!!

[jglei701 8]

One final thought, addressing your first point Sam:

You said, "I'm still not sure that I expect God to be limited to human or naturalistic explanations (however I understand it is an analogy)."

I wasn't trying to limit God to my feable attempts to describe Him. I'm merely a man. I can't even fathom the depth and breath of understanding that I would need to attain before even being able to fully describe just one quality of God. And the thing is He's so much bigger and greater than that, I wouldn't ever be able to finish the description!

Something interesting I thought of when I read your response deals with two passages, one from John 16 and the other from Matthew 13.

John 16:25

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Matthew 13:13-14:

13This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Jesus spoke in parables because these were ways that the common person could understand what he was saying. They dealt with every-day issues, and they directly correlated to a spiritual idea. I use analogies because, many times, that's how I, in fact, have come to an understanding of a more difficult concept. I simply turn it into something I DO understand, and it is a great tool.

It is, by no means, a way to REPLACE the actual thought or idea... but oftentimes, it bridges the gap between ignorance and understanding. Once that gap has been spanned, then understanding comes quite quickly. I just don't want to portray the idea that I'm attempting to limit God to my ability to understand, or describe him.

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: thesonofgray This discussion has made me quite sad.  I mean no disrespect but I am very glad that frndofyaweh or ephorex isn't my father.  I know my parents would do everything in their power to protect their offspring, which would include finding medical or mental health - whichever is needed.  Death as punishment is to give up.  And (my idea of) a good parent should never give up on their child.

^^ That should answer your question, ephorex.

As callgrafx said, there is no need to kill the snake in the playground.  Simply pick him up and move him somewhere else.  It might be a little more difficult than that, but if you make the effort, you have saved both the snake's and the children's lives instead of sacrificing one for another.

I hold to the belief that people can change (in their attitudes).  The problem is a lack of resources to make this happen.  Yes, death does the job of removing someone from society but that is at the expense of life.  There will always be that one exception - the one who can't change - but there are other ways of protecting society other than killing.

If your god was so gracious to create life, then why destroy it without any effort to save it?  Man shot someone?  Kill him.  Woman cheated on her husband?  Kill her.  Child being unruly?  Kill the kid.

  If that is what the Bible teaches then I'm glad half of its followers haven't even read the book.

quote>

 

As callgrafx said, there is no need to kill the snake in the playground.  Simply pick him up and move him somewhere else.  It might be a little more difficult than that, but if you make the effort, you have saved both the snake's and the children's lives instead of sacrificing one for another. quote>

Perhaps you seem to have missed the part about "irreformable". And yes, contrary to what some people may think, some criminals truly are irreformable, or at least so desirous of a life of crime, that to allow them a "chance" is but folly. 

If I were to pick up the snake and put it in a box, that's exactly the same as imprisoning my child for life. By your standards, is that as bad as the death penalty?? You might as well be dead, some people would argue.

Also, let's think about this. How many prisons in the world are destined to keep people in with a success rate of 100%??

Say my child (or anyone's child, for that matter) escapes and kills another 10 or so people. What then?? Imprison him?? Send him to "counselling"?? "Therapy"?? "Reflective healing"?? Imprison him yet again?? But 10 people have lost their lives at his hands already. You want him to have another go??

And as for God's supposed indifference, have you heard of conscience?? A conscience is something engraved within the hearts of men by God. A normal person who sees a child about to fall into a well rushes instinctively to save him. Not for reward or fear of punishment, it must be said. That is conscience; the innate desire of man to do good. However, a conscience can be dulled and blunted through one's own evil actions and decisions. 

People talk about genes that make one more predisposed towards crime...sounds like another novel way of avoiding responsibility for one's own actions.

If you kill another person, then you will pay for that. If you die without repenting, you go straight to Hell. If you die forgiven, then you must be purged of that sin (at least from a Catholic viewpoint) in Purgatory. That is God's divine punishment. 

If on earth, the State dictates that you must be executed for your crimes, then the Church will not object to it if it suits the crime (in this case, murder). God doesn't condone killings...you don't see Him killing people for the heck of it.

And yes, jglei posed a good question. Would you be willing to kill to protect your criminal of a child from execution?? Say that was the only way you could save him, would you do it?? 

You tell me where you want to draw the line.

[callagrafx 3]

Originally posted by: jglei701 Ironic, callagrafx, that your avatar is one popularly referred to as "the angel of death."quote>

Actually, the Character of Death as portrayed in the DiscWorld books (where this image comes from) is more of a kitten loving, curry eating existensialist

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

Thesonofgray: Death as punishment is to give up.  And (my idea of) a good parent should never give up on their child.quote>

Again; that is based on view of death being final. Christians believe death is a new beginning, when it comes as it comes. You cannot give up on something that has no end to it.

My daughters and their friends call me their Dad. Other teenagers run to us for advice and council.

 My daughter has NEVER been in trouble and a straight "A" student, on her way to vetenary college this fall. I NEVER whip a child EVER, but if that same daughter would intentionally take a life; she MUST give a life in return. As a Father who done right things by her, I cannot give my life in her place. If I had been a bad Father; then I deserve to die for her.

Yet My Bible promises, that My children will follow my example and their upbringing, so My Daughter will NEVER intentionally take a life. Garaunteed by God folks.

Does anyone see how this garuantee works? "Raise up a child in the way they should go or act and they will NOT depart from it." No matter how far they stray from God, Church and family; in that heat of the moment, that always comes; they will remember the values they have seen and grew up with.

I have teens here in my household occassionally, who are suicidal, cutters, ADD or HD and their parents feel very comfortable with their teens in our care here.

One fellow, we will call "Pete" has a mother who is his psychotherapist and thinks we are a wonderful influence, with hopes it will rub off on Pete.

I know this is off topic guys, but PLEASE check out the individual teens signing up at Frendos Cryb; they are the same ones I see everyday and love like my own children!

That is why my respect for Joesocwork is so deep. He must go through some tough times with these yutes, fellas. You tend to understand that when, you are applying pressure to sliced arteries, waiting on the that ambulance for a seeming eternity.

[thesonofgray 0]

ephorex (& jglei, frndofyaweh) :  'What if' scenarios get us nowhere and we can argue them for an eternity.  And there are no definite lines in life, although you might believe there are.

You were the one who mentioned the word 'irreformable'.  I never mentioned it.  Again, I believe that people's attitudes can change.  But if you do encounter an individual who is unwilling to change their attutide for some reason or another, and they intend to do harm, then they have given up their right to live freely in civilized society.  They haven't given up their right to live.  NO ONE should be able to revoke someone's right to live.

If you think this is being "soft" or too lenient in punishment, I would have to disagree.  I think a life of imprisonment is actually worse than death.  Of course, I think this because death is an end so you can not feel pain, agony, or loneliness in death.  But in a life of improsonment you can.

ANYWAYS, my original question was about killing children.  To me, children are blank slates ready to be engraved.  So killing a child, even if they committed a crime, is out of the question.  And that is exactly what the Bible condones - whether it be disobedient children or the youth of a certain ethnicity.

The direction that this conversation went is probably my fault since I didn't originally specify the word "child".  I only said daughter.  I think people should be punished for crimes they committed, and I think punishements in the developed world are too lenient.  But I also think death is not a just punishement.

Such a morbid subject.

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

Well Thesonofgray; The Bible condones judgement based on accountability, which comes at differing ages for every child.

Age of accountability, is the age of reasoning, is self responsible. some say it is 12years old, because Jesus was twelve when he began to teach about His Father.

Bible doesn't really specify an age though. I believe it comes from wisdom and knowledge both.

Age of reason: when you first know and understand, how to weigh one option against another, when you know right from wrong, attempting to solve your own problems.

Thus, causing or preventing problems, or accountable for breaking the law.

My best Guestimate is, 8 years old.

[thesonofgray 0]

So then, you think we should try kids as adults in our courts at the age of 8??

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

Nope. The Bible also gave the law and the law is not to be broken. "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars."

U.S. does try 12 year olds as adults in some cases. Since age of reasoning is different for every child; society must set a standard to follow. America is 12 usually, with no death penalty.

I obey the law, therefore I agree with that law.

Law is under God. If law goes above God; I must ignore that law and am under oppression by the law.

EDIT: I most certainly believe; that children need to be reached and taught right and wrong, by example and communication. once they begin to reason things themselves, they think independently also. It gets harder and harder to reach them and help them set values and know how to cherish life and others and love. Love MUST be taught by example! love has many aspects to it and is very complicated subject, some parents were not taught and do not know how to teach it.........image that......

[thesonofgray 0]

I obey the law also, but there are many that I thoroughly disagree with.

But I want to spend this post telling you about an interesting woman named Nonie Darwish.  I was watching news reports over the contunuing and age-old conflict between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East.  Nonie Darwish's name came up, and I thought her history was interesting and somewhat relevant to the conversation at hand.  Here is a little about her from Wikipedia:

Nonie Darwish is a freelance writer, public speaker and founder of Arabs for Israel. The outspoken daughter of a "shahid" (martyr), Darwish attributes her father's death to "the Middle Eastern Islamic culture and the propaganda of hatred taught to children from birth". She states her mission is to "promote reconciliation, acceptance and understanding" between Israelis and Arabs.

Born in Cairo, Darwish moved to Gaza in the 1950s when her father, Lt. General Mustafa Hafez, was sent by Gamal Abdel Nasser to serve as commander of the Egyptian Army Intelligence in Gaza, which was then occupied by Egypt. Hafez founded the Fedayeen who launched raids across Israel's southern border, that between 1951 and 1956, killed some 400 Israelis out of a population of just over one million.

In July 1956 when Nonie was 8 years old, her father became the first targeted assassination carried out by Israeli counterintelligence in response to terrorism. [1][2][3] During his speech announcing the nationalisation of the Suez Canal, Nasser vowed that all of Egypt would take revenge for Hafez's death. Nasser asked Nonie and her siblings, "Which one of you will avenge your father's death by killing Jews?" [4]

Darwish explains, "I always blamed Israel for my father's death, because that's what I was taught. I never looked at why Israel killed my father. They killed my father because the fedayeen were killing Israelis. They killed my father because when I was growing up, we had to recite poetry pledging jihad against Israel. We would have tears in our eyes, pledging that we wanted to die. I speak to people who think there was no terrorism against Israel before the'67 war. How can they deny it? My father died in it." [5]quote>

All her life, from childhood, she was taught to hate and kill Isrealites.  Her father did it, her government asked for it, and her culture praised it.  So what does she do now as an adult?

Darwish's website Arabs for Israel describes itself as an organization of Arabs and Muslims who "respect and support the State of Israel", welcome a "peaceful and diverse Middle East", reject "suicide/homicide terrorism as a form of Jihad", and promote "constructive self-criticism and reform" in the Arab/Muslim world.quote>

It probably would have been more comforting to Isrealites to brush the child off as "irreformable" and just wipe out the entire family altogether.  But if they did that, the adult Nonie wouldn't be supporting and preaching peace and respect between Isreal and Arabs - the exact opposite of what she was taught her entire life. 

[timotheus4 39]

Just a note: God is a God of justice. When sin is commited, justice should be rendered.

And this is where the discussion usually ends - when I can't understand the "truth" because I don't believe in the "truth".  If it is the truth then why don't I believe in it?quote>

Because you don't realize that it is the truth.

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

So Thesonofgray, you semi-support my Bible verse above then?

Raise up a child in the way they should go and they will not depart from it. 

Rightiousness burns passionate in hearts forever.(eternal)

Nonie was raised up in the way she should NOT go and lost her father to that example(consequence).

Harmfulness burns a heart to death and is painful.

You are relating Bible teaching in your messages friend

[thesonofgray 0]

I'm sure I relate Bible teachings in many of my messages. As I am sure that I relate many other religious teachings in my messages. But just because a theif gives a little bit of his stolen money to a charity doesn't mean that the theif is correct in all his doings. (probably a bad analogy)

Edit: Tim, you don't realize that it isn't the truth. 

I would say more but I'm very busy. Sorry. Adios!

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

Does not anyone find it strange that all saying, quotes, values and teachings were said in the Bible first and said much better?

I have read Socrates and he says nothing new, that my Bible has already said or taught us.

I have read Nostradamus and he said nothing differnet from what my Bible already says.

I have read quotes from Ben Franklin, that are directly derived from Bible teachings and philosophically translated by Ben and many many others.

Would anyone like to see this work? I can show you that any wise thing under the sun, is already said first in the Bible.

Would anyone like to see these?

[jglei701 8]

Ecclesiastes 1:10

10 Is there anything of which one can say,

"Look! This is something new"?

It was here already, long ago;

it was here before our time.

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

Oh Phoooh Jglei701! you're out to ruin my fun.

Ecclesiastes1:9 written by the wisest of all, Solomon.

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.