First Amendment to the U.S.A. Constitutiion

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Can't stop this in the U.S. because of freedom of speech rights?

Who benefits?  Follow the money.

[krbe 193]

Of course Amazon is free to sell or facilitate the sale of Nazi stuff if they so wish.

That they are having qualms regarding ISIL themed goods does suggest that there is a certain vetting process going on. Amazon shouldn't be forced to apologise for judging Nazism more salonfähig than Islamic terrorism -- that's the job of your wallet.

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

A private company has the right to ban the sale of any item they wish. This is not protected under the first amendment and nowhere in the article does it say that they can't stop selling it because of freedom of speech.

[krbe 193]

I believe Nonny would be more inclined to see the government step in and ban the sale of such items (and that the 1st Amendment hinders that) -- as the article clearly underscores the fact that Amazon is quite content with selling Nazi goods (as opposed to ISIL goods).

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

Just now, krbe said:

I believe Nonny would be more inclined to see the government step in and ban the sale of such items (and that the 1st Amendment hinders that) -- as the article clearly underscores the fact that Amazon is quite content with selling Nazi goods (as opposed to ISIL goods).

Of course he would. He's Canadian lol.

[Casper3141 60]

Well unlike ISIL-ISIS Nazi Germany holds alot more historical value and I cant think of alot of things that have had a bigger impact on the modern world than the Rise of Nazi Germany and the Second World War

Dont really see the point of Running shoes with swastikas however that was created to seperate retards and their wallet

[raynev1 1,886]

   I believe there is more to it . IMHO , for all it's worth . I believe online sales might be observed . If so , then they have an address to look at . Somewhere to add to a profile of a possible Hate Crime Act . Just a thought .

   And @A Nonny Moose   Follow the money. Haha , that's my line . I knew I should have put a copyright on it .

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

@raynev1:  Well, lad, follow the money is an old Roman expression so no copyright.  It is public domain, and was probably around among criminal investigators before that.

The point about tracking the buyers of such trash is valid.  A field day for Homeland Security to put their hands on the right-wingers and other nutz.

The swastika is an honourable symbol often found in indigenous people's artifacts.  Hitler and Co. appropriate it and made a good luck symbol into a thing of hate, something like a fiery cross.  In the 1930s some rather important Americans belonged to the German-American Bund.

For those of you taught American history of the great depression and after, have you ever even seen a hit of this outfit?  I would be willing to guess that it has never been mentioned any time in this century.  Oh, and what about Joe McCarthy's Anti-American Investigating Committee of the U.S. Congress (Tricky Dick was his chief counsel).  Thank heavens for Edward R. Murrow.  Where is he now?!!

Spoiler

Is is possible that Canadians know more U.S. history than Americans?  Or is my memory just very good.  I was around for most of this.

 

[raynev1 1,886]

@A Nonny Moose Yeah , history wasn't pushed much where I went to school , maybe because I only completed the 8th grade . But none the less , they (Education System) tried to get us to believe George Washington was the first President , later on I found out different . Actually the 8th or 9th I think , sometimes I don't remember correctly . I found that , all that's taught in school isn't always true . They taught me how to write out a check , but didn't tell me how money I had to work with . What do you call that ? Oh , BTW , you posted in another thread about Ezekiel , I like the story of Ezekiel , that's a heck of a description of something isn't it .  

40 minutes ago, A Nonny Moose said:

The swastika is an honourable symbol often found in indigenous people's artifacts. 

I've seen that here and there , I find indigenous people's culture fascinating . 

Sorry for getting off topic .

  Edited December 14, 2015 by raynev1  
added

[krbe 193]

47 minutes ago, A Nonny Moose said:

The swastika is an honourable symbol often found in indigenous people's artifacts.  Hitler and Co. appropriate it and made a good luck symbol into a thing of hate, something like a fiery cross.  In the 1930s some rather important Americans belonged to the German-American Bund.

In Sweden it used to denote power stations on maps (as well as being a general electricity sign); several companies used it as a logo, and Carlsberg's elephants still proudly bear the symbol. Of course, it is still a symbol for Buddhism.

As for the notion that any Homeland Security departments should have the sales records -- do they get sent to the PreCrime office?

[AkemiAzula 280]

I often think how ironic it is that in Germany I can be sent to jail for giving a fascist salute, yet if I entered a cathedral and gave the 'hail satan' sign I doubt I would face any legal proceedings.

Similarly while nazi memorabilia collectors are probably all in a NSA database, I doubt they care less about the thousands who buy Darth Vader merchandise.

I have the fire nation emblem on my right arm and while that is more like Germany than 'the third reich', the fact the Fire Nation is fictional helps.

The thing is that the Romans, heck even middle ages Englishmen, were as or more 'barbaric' than the nazis. Yet are togas banned? Are medieval kings hate preachers?

The Nazi era is just old enough to no longer have a impact on reality beyond far right groups. It is 'period' like Napoleon or Caesar (who killed more than Adolf the Aryan ever did, at least by his own actions)

Furthermore it did contribute more to history and culture than IS.

IS is a ragnarok cult, all they officially care about is destruction. Whereas Hitler believed, while in the afterlife, also making a great Earthly empire. In 'mein kampf' he writes about culture in a way an IS fanatic would not like, though admittedly he was conservative in taste. But Wagner would be as banned as Gershwin in 'the caliphate'.

Just as Vader gave himself to culture, so did Herr Hitler.

Whatever one thinks of 'the holicaust' and the second 'world war', he remains an important historical figure. 

Do we allow paintings and music about sunshine but ban those about volcanoes and meteors? 

Nazism strove for cultural eliteness and perfection but was not anti-cultural.

Whereas IS hates culture period, although it betrays some affectations towards 'islam' culture but most Islamics do not strive to become citizens of the 'caliphate'.

Whereas fascism had a cultural importance. Is militarised and elitist culture anti-cultural?

But putting aside my opinion of IS versus Nazism, this issue of merchandise is not something with an obvious answer. After all banning a thing because it offends you... Well I don't see the vast amount of almost pornographic cultural sewage being attacked so.

I would be more offended by a fat and old monk than by a young fit girl fascist.

But perhaps I am an overly aesthetic philisopher.

I think IS has no culture. They are as cultural as toilet paper or cardboard boxes. 

However if we allow big firms to ban items for that reason then what about the vast swamp of chavvy boganware? All those silly rude or ugly t shirts or all that pulp fiction or all those sweets or the bulk of television...

At least IS have some kind of ideology beyond sheer hedonistic decadence...

But seriously, don't big firms like Amazon have better things to do than ban certain items (and I read they sell porn!) like I dunno, avoiding tax or something?

[LexusInfernus 908]

11 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

The point about tracking the buyers of such trash is valid.  A field day for Homeland Security to put their hands on the right-wingers and other nutz.

Or you find legitimate collectors of Nazi stuff. And it doesn't necessarily mean those people are actual nazis themselves. 

I don't really see the problem here. If Amazon wants to sell nazi stuff, well fine. I think its distasteful, but whatever, no one is forcing me to look at it or buy it. 

Besides, and this is important to remember, free speech exists to protect speech people disagree with. Speech everyone agrees with doesn't need protection, the stuff that dissents from that does. As such, if you start going after Nazis by limiting their free speech because you think Nazis are scum, you set the first step on a slippery slope towards a place where free speech is dead. 

[Sabretooth78 808]

14 hours ago, raynev1 said:

@A Nonny Moose Yeah , history wasn't pushed much where I went to school , maybe because I only completed the 8th grade . But none the less , they (Education System) tried to get us to believe George Washington was the first President , later on I found out different . Actually the 8th or 9th I think , sometimes I don't remember correctly . I found that , all that's taught in school isn't always true . They taught me how to write out a check , but didn't tell me how money I had to work with . What do you call that ?

Yeah, I didn't find that out until about 10 years ago.  The first president (or perhaps to be more technically correct, the first holder of the current office's previous incarnation) was John Hanson.  George Washington was the first to hold the office under the current Constitution and the 9th overall.  The USA as a nation didn't set up shop in 1789.

I don't recall much discussion about the Articles of Confederation throughout school and the last mention I can definitively recall was, coincidentally, in the 8th grade.  It was generally referred to as "weak" and "not built to last" and generally that was it, we moved onto the Constitution.  Funny how there has been discussion in certain circles recently that we might be better off as a nation today were the Articles still in effect - though I'm sure some pretty glaring holes would have had to have been made in the intervening time (for instance, interstate commerce today would be a rat's nest of a mess) lest we just ended up being a version of the current EU before its time (bit of an oversimplification but apt).  They were "weak" because they didn't enable the overbearing central government we have today, and for all the love libertarians and so-called conservatives give the Constitution, it in reality ended up being a watered-down compromise to the statists of the day.

It's not as big a lie as, for instance, teaching us (with a straight face no less) that Columbus sailed with the sole mission of proving the Earth was round, but it's still a lie nonetheless.

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

17 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

The point about tracking the buyers of such trash is valid.  A field day for Homeland Security to put their hands on the right-wingers and other nutz.

It always amazes me how authoritarian Canadian liberals are. On one hand they'll argue against Bill C-51, on the other they're perfectly willing to use the surveillance state against "right wingers".

17 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

 

  Hide contents

Is is possible that Canadians know more U.S. history than Americans?  Or is my memory just very good.  I was around for most of this.

 

From your comments I'd say your grasp of American history and understanding of the constitution and bill of rights is shaky at best. Very slanted by a Canadian interpretation that looks down on the US.

Canadians in general know little to nothing about American history. We're just as ignorant as Americans in most instances which is why our sense of superiority always irritates me.

17 hours ago, raynev1 said:

@A Nonny Moose Yeah , history wasn't pushed much where I went to school , maybe because I only completed the 8th grade . But none the less , they (Education System) tried to get us to believe George Washington was the first President , later on I found out different . Actually the 8th or 9th I think , sometimes I don't remember correctly . I found that , all that's taught in school isn't always true . They taught me how to write out a check , but didn't tell me how money I had to work with . What do you call that ? Oh , BTW , you posted in another thread about Ezekiel , I like the story of Ezekiel , that's a heck of a description of something isn't it .  

I've seen that here and there , I find indigenous people's culture fascinating . 

Sorry for getting off topic .

George Washington was the first President of the United States. John Hanson was the first President of the Continental Congress. It's completely different.

 

5 hours ago, LexusInfernus said:

Or you find legitimate collectors of Nazi stuff. And it doesn't necessarily mean those people are actual nazis themselves. 

I don't really see the problem here. If Amazon wants to sell nazi stuff, well fine. I think its distasteful, but whatever, no one is forcing me to look at it or buy it. 

Besides, and this is important to remember, free speech exists to protect speech people disagree with. Speech everyone agrees with doesn't need protection, the stuff that dissents from that does. As such, if you start going after Nazis by limiting their free speech because you think Nazis are scum, you set the first step on a slippery slope towards a place where free speech is dead. 

I totally agree, but I think it just looks bad from a business sense. If I were Amazon I'd stop selling it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

But Amazon is free to sell anything because of this topic.  They could even sell ISIS paraphernalia if they wished, but this would probably get them slammed by the powers that be.  Maybe they can get away with it in 70 years or so, once ISIS is a thing of the past like the Third Reich.

On the other hand, nothing stops them from selling relics of the Ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses including Isis.

[SimCoug 5,972]

25 minutes ago, A Nonny Moose said:

On the other hand, nothing stops them from selling relics of the Ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses including Isis.

Although, it sounds like a number of businesses are running into problems regarding that... 

I wonder how fast the popularity of the name Isis declines over the next few years.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

3 minutes ago, SimCoug said:

Although, it sounds like a number of businesses are running into problems regarding that... 

I wonder how fast the popularity of the name Isis declines over the next few years.

I feel rather sorry for girls saddled with this name and i hope they have a good alternate or nickname.  Even Hatshepsut would be better.

After 1945 I don't recall any boys named Adolf.

[LexusInfernus 908]

2 hours ago, MilitantRadical said:

I totally agree, but I think it just looks bad from a business sense. If I were Amazon I'd stop selling it.

Sure, but thats up to Amazon to decide, no need to get the government involved. 

[Sabretooth78 808]

Yeah, there was a women's fitness place I drive by every day that used to be called Isis.  They've since changed their name, can't recall what, though.

[AkemiAzula 280]

13 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

 

After 1945 I don't recall any boys named Adolf.

And toothbrush moustaches went somewhat out of fashion.

One of my ancestors, a Prussian from the nineteenth century, was called Adolphus Rauscher.

As to Isis I don't see why we don't just call them IS or Islamic State in full. Isis was very different to these monotheistic people.

But yes I agree in seventy or so years Basil will be telling Manuel and Pollytron 3000 not to mention the jihad to their arabic guests.

If we could only preserve and value art from history and cultures who were angelic and politically correct to our modern whims we would have very sparse gallery exhibits indeed.

 

 

[Casper3141 60]

The problem with this kinda of censorship is anyone who wants it is automatically assumed a hateful person. I build models, when I built the USS Arizona I put a US flag, when I built the Yamato I put the old IJN Flag, when I did the Bismark I put the historical flag of the third reich these attempts of hiding hateful imagery just make people forget the horrors and the struggles that existed in History and to me are ridiculous, it hurt people so lets forget what previous generations went through? 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ There is a difference between expressions of history and mass marketing of hateful things.  Your model of the Yamamoto should have a Japanese Imperial Flag.  When you make models, they should be accurate in all details.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Also consider that a flag, a country, a weapon or a city or a person...

Anything can theoretically be used for 'good' or 'evil'. 

I could suffocate someone with a fluffy pink pillow.

Or I could use a knife to carve a sculpture of a love heart.

The third reich, ancient Egypt, Rome, and yes even IS, should in a rational timeless mind be put alongside the Fire Nation, the Sith Empire and Voldemort, as they are ideas.

So should they be put in the same basket as the USA, Harry Potter and the Rebel Alliance. Culture and art is borderless as it transcends the reality of politics.

In an alternate universe what is to stop America from flying a swastika or the reich the stars and stripes, each stripe representing a German state or somesuch thing.

An angel may be inspired by a demon without being corrupted by the same.

I will admit I hate capitalism and 'freedom' and the modern decadent mess of democracy. The problem with democracy is if the people are stupid then rule by the people is equally stupid.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

@Mark_Kochan

Interesting view of democracy.  For all the lip service, nobody has it.  To see what has happened read Animal Farm by George Orwell.  When the pigs become more equal, that's then end of the democracy/communism, then they employ the dogs as their army.  Not a very long book, and everyone who values freedom should read it.  There is a difference between freedom and licentiousness.