Scottish Separation

[Snugies 91]

People stomping around country to country? i'm friends with muslims, I know and went to school with many muslims all good people. The mayor of Calgary is muslim. they are not terrorists. Many muslims in Scotland none are terrorists there are no terrorist attacks in Scotland. What because of 1,000 murderers in Iraq we need trillion dollar a year militaries? 1,000 murderers in Detroit what about some Detroit military deployment? Oh but of course the national governments want to pretend there is such a terror threat and immigration threat. No I think they are just scared of globalization, well Its a globalized world, I'm a globalist, I have a wonderful quality of life today solely because of globalization.   

[Meg 368]

People stomping around country to country?   

 

Yep.  That's what they are doing.

 

i'm friends with muslims, I know and went to school with many muslims all good people. The mayor of Calgary is muslim. they are not terrorists. Many muslims in Scotland none are terrorists there are no terrorist attacks in Scotland.  

 

Who said anything about muslims?   We don't need to have this discussion here; there is a thread for that.   My point was, national defense and the military provide more than airport security.

 

What because of 1,000 murderers in Iraq we need trillion dollar a year militaries?

 

The history of the planet shows that war isn't likely to go away any time soon.   It can change form and location but there always seems to be one being fought somewhere.

 

 

1,000 murderers in Detroit what about some Detroit military deployment?   

 

Not sure where you got your numbers from but, last I heard, the people of Detroit had decided to handle their murder problem using the judicial process.    I'm not following your point.

 

 

Oh but of course the national governments want to pretend there is such a terror threat and immigration threat. No I think they are just scared of globalization, well Its a globalized world, I'm a globalist, I have a wonderful quality of life today solely because of globalization.   

 

Pretend there is a terror threat?   This is another discussion way off topic from Scottish independence.   So is globalization but I doubt that the quality of life of anyone is "solely" due to anything.

[Snugies 91]

"My point was, national defense and the military provide more than airport security."

-my point is if anybody is making my life dangerous it is the British/American/Canadian government stomping around the world instigating wars with many peoples and offending different peoples

-Scotland free yourself from being associated with the corrupt criminal British government

 

"The history of the planet shows that war isn't likely to go away any time soon."

-No I think it can go away and globalization is helping that and pessimists like you are the ones who keep war on the agenda

 

"I'm not following your point."

-3 Americans murdered by ISIS will cost trillions of dollars in military deployment to Iraq...hundreds of innocent Americans murdered unsolved in debt ridden cities like Detroit really you don't see a hypocrisy in there? Americans murdered in Iraq are worth more than the ones murdered in Detroit?

 

"Pretend there is a terror threat?   This is another discussion way off topic from Scottish independence." 

-yep and no its on topic so I hope the Scottish can manage to disassociate themselves from the corrupt criminal British government

 

"I doubt that the quality of life of anyone is "solely" due to anything."

-again see up top where I listed to you everything I get from around the world thanks to globalization.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

@snuggies:  Have you ever voted in a federal (or any other) election?  If you had you would know why we have various levels of government, which in our case is a representative democracy .. er .. oligarchy. 

 

The feds run the military and the borders, mostly.  Conduct communications with other countries and try to keep trade equitable across the borders.  They also run the social safety net which includes the Canada Pension Plan and the Canada Health Act.  And, of course, there is the Bank of Canada and the Bank of Canada Act which protected us from that mess in 2008.

 

Don't they teach any civics where you go to school?

 

---

 

Separation of countries into new states, also called Balkanization, is the current fashion in international activities.  It seems to have infected Europe most strongly as consolidated states from the first half of the 20th century and old empires readjust to suit the ethnic populations.  People want to return to their roots if possible.

 

Now with Scotland, you've a political entity that has been independent since the Roman Times and only recently been a part of the United Kingdom speaking in historic time terms.  However, there has been a great deal of joint development that probably would not have happened if the countries had been separate.  Whatever happens, I hope for a continued amicable relationship for them.

 

Looking at history from around the time of the Battle of Culloden, it is rather clear that the Scots at that time were longing for a return of the Stuarts.  Unfortunately the Stuarts had been thoroughly poisoned socially by living at the French court, and Charles Stuart would have made a very bad king.  He would have wanted the decadence he grew up in, and I don't believe that is the Scottish character.  He was a Roman Catholic, and I don't think Scotland would have tolerated that.  If the battle had gone the other way, I think they'd have chased his decadent bottom back across the sea.

 

While it is a nice tune, I think the Skye Boat Song should be forgotten except for folk festivals.

 

Modern Scotland has a much more scientific and engineering background starting in the eighteenth century and going forward.  Next time you are in London, take a look at some of the buildings that have been standing since before WW II, and you'll see some Scottish architecture.  A great deal of civilization flowed south from Scotland to England after the Act of Union.

 

As for Catalonia, If it is able to sever itself from Spain, what about the Basques?

[Meg 368]

I'd love to see war go away but you have more faith in humanity than I do.  But, hey, go for it.   You're bringing back memories of the good old days when we thought we could change the world.  We did, to a point, but there is much more to be done.  (The 1960s were quite weird but I do miss them at times.)  If you guys want to pick up the torch and carry on, I shall cheer you along the way.

[Lindsay Tobias 0]

well Scotland has a lack of industry, it is not going to work

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

@meg: "If I had a hammer ..."

[Meg 368]

@Nonny:  "I'd hammer in the morning . . ."           ::: stands, raises fist into the air, sings "One Tin Soldier" :::::

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

@meg: "When I went down to sweet Athy, aroo, aroo..."

[krbe 193]

Well that is true. I would sincerely hope the EU would allow Scotland back in without giving them to much trouble. But you have to understand here, that it is not just a matter of the EU wanting it. The EU is not synonymous with 'the will of the memberstates'. The Commission may push for Scotland to join, but the member states all have a veto when it comes to a vote. And there might be a number of countries that are not interested in letting Scotland back in, mainly Spain, which is dealing with its own separatist movement in Catalonia. They might veto Scotland joining the EU in order to send a message to Catalonian separatists.

The Catalonia scenario might scare Spain, but this is a question of politics. The EU desperately needs willing, enthusiastic member states with popular backing, and the question is more if any of the more seasoned member states will allow the biggest benefit recipient to block Scotland's membership.

As for Catalonia, If it is able to sever itself from Spain, what about the Basques?

Spain is not going to just give the Catalans anything just by asking. And the Basque know how to do the not asking part.

[TekindusT 3,809]

As for Catalonia, If it is able to sever itself from Spain, what about the Basques?

 

Don't expect the Basques taking that step anytime soon. After all, the Catalonian conflict is triggered by economic reasons, which is a reason the Basques don't have. The Basque Country and Navarre are the only Spanish regions that can decide, by their fundamental laws, how much money they give to the central government and how much money they keep. Catalonia doesn't have this option.

[Snugies 91]

I agree Nonny thank you we live in an 'oligarchy'. No I do not vote. I'm just a die-hard globalist and I believe some nationalist 'oligarchy' in the west is destabilizing the world, and I hope the Scottish free themselves from being associated with it.     

[LexusInfernus 908]

Yes for Scottish independence, my opinion we live in a globalized world now which makes national governments useless, and communities can self govern and live off of global free trade. In Canada I don't even know what the federal government does? Probably same for UK what does the UK government do? My electronics are from Japan, exercise bike from China, car from Japan, food from Mexico, clothes from China, meat from Alberta, gasoline from various places, employed by American company, educated by money from oil sold to Americans...seriously wtf does the federal government in Ottawa give me? do they enforce world trade agreements? NO, because world trade operates on self interest. do they issue currency? yes...but I can use yen, u.s. dollar or gold...so why do we need a national government again?...airport security?     

You think world trade operates by itself? Well, you would be 100% wrong. It operates because national governments have agreed to let it operate. They control the borders and its them that allow you to drive a car from Japan and eat food from Mexico. If they want, they could raise tariff barriers and you wouldnt be able to afford your Japanese car or your Mexican food. And World Trade Agreements only exist because nations have negotiated their existence. The natural tendency of countries is not to encourage free trade, but to adopt highly protectionist policies designed to keep free trade limited. 

 

What else do they do? Well, lets see. How about setting up safety and health standards by which your Japanese car and Mexican food have to abide, so that in case you get into a car accident, your car has airbags and other safety features that hopefully prevent you from horribly injuring yourself or dying. Or that you can eat that Mexican food without getting sick. And thats not even mentioning the standard civil services the government provides you. Education might be paid for by selling oil, but who do you think sets the standards of which education has to stick to? And what about your safety? Laws that protect you are enforced by the national government, the army and police force that enforce those laws are paid for by the government. Granted, some of those things can and are done on a regional level. 

 

So now we reach the greatest benefit of being part of a greater collective. The power of numbers. A region with maybe a few million people and a small economy has absolutely no significance, no impact, no importance whatsoever on the world stage. You might as well not exist, because thats how much you matter in the grand scheme of things. But what if you combine a bunch of those small regions. Suddenly, you matter. Your territory is greater, your economy larger, the number of people that are your citizens are more numerous, etc. Ottowa we can all ignore as insignificant, but Canada? Much harder to ignore. And that matters when it comes to international politics and trade. Collective bargaining is just so much more effective then every individual bargaining for themselves. 

 

Sure, in a world of perfect liberal democracy, you would have a point, collective bargaining and collective security would be relatively unimportant tasks. But you forget, we do not live in a world of perfect liberal democracy. The idea that we have reached the end of history has been thoroughly refuted, this summer being the ultimate proof of just that. We are living a world where there are China's and Russia's and ISIS. Countries and organizations that would wipe their behinds with the values of liberal democracies. Countries where there are no free markets and where the government and economy are thoroughly mixed, where the economy is backed by the government and the government pursues the economic interest of certain economic entities. You need a national government, or an organization such as the EU to provide a counter balance to those countries, lest they dominate you and your economy. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The polls have been open for some time.  Soon it will be all over except the shouting.

[mrsmartman 200]

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the United States of America has become the only superpower in the world. This shows the power of unification of 300 million people from 50 states under a federal government. If the country is in a developed region with balance of power, e.g. Europe, and does not intend to interfere other nations, a variety of diversified nations can be sustainable.

[Whte_rbt 1,431]

@ Snugies: FYI there was an attempt at terrorism in Glasgow a few years ago, Two Fundamentalists drove a jeep, poorly loaded with petrol n explosives, into a terminal at Glasgow airport. The plot was foiled by one John Smeaton, a baggage handler who kicked the pair of them into next week until the security forces arrived to save them from the asskicking.

 

In general the Scots don't have a terrorism problem at all. Even the IRA at their height never considered targeting us, all it would have led to is about two million Scots jumping onto ferries to go "visit" N. Ireland.

[Zelgadis 638]

There is a lot of misinformation going on in both sides of the overall debate that I can see.

 

I can understand the feelings of the "no" voters. It is a step into the unknown, for sure. I seriously doubt, however, that the consequences of separation will be anywhere near as dire as some of the "no" campaigners are claiming.

 

For the "yes" side, a little more realism would be a good thing. If "yes" succeeds, there will surely be a several years of big fat mess to fix. Still, Scots are known, generally, to be a very practical, hardworking people. I'm quite sure they're up to the task of building their own nation. To suggest otherwise is, frankly, a bit of an insult. We're not talking about a third world country with limited resources.

 

At the end of the day, however, it's up to them. I have no horse in this race, so it's easy for me to sit here and speculate, isn't it?

 

I have to laugh at some of the commentators I've seen in the news predicting global calamity if this succeeds. I guess some people just aren't happy unless they think there's something ready to destroy civilization as we know it.

[Haljackey 17,398]

Dam Scots, they ruined Scotland!

 

[Whte_rbt 1,431]

There's a video on YouTube of Willie announcing his candidacy for the Scottish First Minister's post if we go independent.

 

Scary thing is a lot of us would preferably see Groundskeeper Willie in charge rather than Alex Salmond. Me included.

 

Still voting YES on independence today though.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, it is not a matter of "Scots wa' hae ..." this time.  The forward planning seems to be reasonable, but you know how renovation projects go.  When you take down the dry wall, you never know what dry rot will be revealed.

 

Best to keep the House of Windsor and be a constitutional monarchy.  That means continuity no matter what.

[Zelgadis 638]

Best to keep the House of Windsor and be a constitutional monarchy.  That means continuity no matter what.

 

The Scottish leaders have already declared their intention to keep the Queen.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, that probably means a full refurbishment for Holyrood House (the Royal Palace of Scotland).  Wonder who will be appointed as Governor General?  I nominate Prince Harry.

[Whte_rbt 1,431]

"Continuity no matter what..."

 

I don't think you understand the general attitude in Scotland. There are a great many of us who cannot stand the way Westminster runs things to London's exclusive benefit. How can it be that we (Scotland) have Oil and Gas reserves and yet there is still excessive levels of poverty nationwide. Our country is used to store the UK's nuclear deterrent, something we didn't want, all because London took the attitude of "No one in England wants this in their city, we'll base it in Scotland instead".

 

I'm sure this mentality of thinking of Scotland as "That bunch of barbarians to the North" is programmed into them somewhere in Eton.

 

We've done the best we can with the situation as it stands, and we're sick of absolutely nothing changing.

 

All London can do is throw policy change after policy change at us, claiming that we're better together. Ha. Ha.

 

I think they mean "If you go we'll have no money left coz we'll need to get petrol and gas from other places"

 

Tough. We have had enough of this from London. Time to walk away...

[KonstantinII 1,106]

The people of Scotland have a right to separate from the oppressive British empire.

[Odainsaker 2,137]

No need for incendiarism. I haven't seen reporting yet of any redcoats bayoneting Scots in line at polling stations. Indeed, Scots are actually voting on the issue in fair, free, and valid elections, so I don't see any rights being denied by an "oppresive" Empire. Oh, Scots, being British citizens, also have the right to remain British citizens, and need not be labelled as oppressed or oppressors. That such a vote can be held today without the presence of masked paramilitaries in unmarked uniforms pouring over the border from another foreign nation and shooting down airliners is a historical testament to Western democracy.

[TekindusT 3,809]

A true example of democracy and a show of David Cameron's and his cabinet principles. They might be right-wing nationalist politicians, but before that, they're democrats. I respect that. I do not respect other PMs who only claim being democrats without showing so.

[Odainsaker 2,137]

True, though I would think Cameron should step down after all this, regardless of how the Scottish vote goes. If "Yes," then he has so mismanaged the government such as to actually break the United Kingdom. If "No," then he has so mismanaged the government such as to almost break the United Kingdom. Surely, that in itself should bring up a question of confidence in the government.

[blade2k5 1,523]

I'd love to see war go away but you have more faith in humanity than I do.

 

Well now, this is something I believe in as well.  It is not in human nature to be all nice and peachy with one another, never has been nor will it ever be.  One thing pacifists fail to understand, it is in our nature to dominate everything and everyone and unless that instinct is bred out of the human race, we will always continue to war with one another.   Look at history and what do we see, one human group trying to dominate another and it continues over an over again and is going on right now.  I have little to no faith in humanity that we'll stop killing one another over some really stupid *bleep bleep*

 

Back on subject, as for Scotland and this independence vote, if it's a yes, then I hope it all works out for you since I have Scottish blood in my veins, as well as Irish, Scandinavian and English, but mostly Scottish and Irish.  If the vote goes against independence, I don't think Scotland will be any worse off than it is now.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Polls close in less than two hours.  I've been carefully avoiding the pundits today, because I believe that the only result with any meaning won't be known until the votes are counted.

 

One of the things I really hate about the news media is that they try to 'make' the news ahead of the fact.

 

Well, good luck, Geordie.  I hope you get what you really want and deserve.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

People around the world such as in East Ukraine, Scotland...have the right to separate from an oppressive regime and determine their own future.