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A Nonny Moose

India's Gang Rape Problem.

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Second case this year.

 

I don't think this used to be a common occurrence in India.  Something in the culture has changed.

 

At one time, before the British Raj, India had spots of very high civilization, but now it has, in places, descended into some kind of mob mentality.

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It's certainly not the only reason, but I can see where a culture of sex-selective abortions that results in men significantly outnumbering women could lead to problems like this.

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Obviously the rapists should be burnt etc etc. However analysing the cause of the problem and suggestions for its proper solution I don't know how much the modern age is to blame for this. Are there reliable records for this sort of thing from the past? Or, as with the Catholic Church, are we just now witnessing what was always there but kept hidden from public view? At any rate whether or not this is a modern phenomenon there is certainly no positive angle on such things and naturally it is hardly good to see one of the world's most important industrialised nations stopping to such levels of basery. 

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This has always been a problem. India has always been notoriously misogynistic in its culture and has been for a very long time. The only thing that has changed is that India has been marching towards a more prominent position on the world stage, which means greater scrutiny from our media, and the fact that only now a large enough group of people realize that their culture's misogynistic attitude is from a backward era and has no place in a modern society. Which is why there are these massive protests. 

 

But yeah, those gang rapes have been around since forever, we just never paid any attention to it. 

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  • Original Poster
  • Progress on the case.

     

    Duke has a point, and certainly not the only one.  Do we suppose that it is coincidence that the Hindu God of Death (Kali) is female?  Perhaps the Hindu priesthood of ancient times have a part in this?

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    Hello I'm back ;)

     

    I think the most important solution is to educate those mothers to discipline their sons from young and not coddle them, as most of them do right now. Those Indian boys who get spoilt by their mothers (regardless of their background, wealth, social status etc.) literally grow up thinking that female human beings are their oysters.

     

    All this is from my personal observations over the years, right here at my place. And there has been a HUGE surge in their numbers in recent years (I suspect it's a jump of over 300%).

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  • Capt. Johnny makes a good point.  Indian families have got to start being parents and not fawn all over the boys and use the girls as slaves.

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    Nope, I think their laws are still letting the rapist-murderers off far too lightly. Each of them deserves at least a couple dozen strokes of the rattan cane. Corporal punishment is definitely justifiable in this case. And the rattan cane has to be at least half an inch thick.

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    Hello I'm back ;)

     

    I think the most important solution is to educate those mothers to discipline their sons from young and not coddle them, as most of them do right now. Those Indian boys who get spoilt by their mothers (regardless of their background, wealth, social status etc.) literally grow up thinking that female human beings are their oysters.

     

    All this is from my personal observations over the years, right here at my place. And there has been a HUGE surge in their numbers in recent years (I suspect it's a jump of over 300%).

    My parents treat me like children and their from India anyway

    most of the Indian population is men.

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  • Original Poster
  • ^ One of the draw back of that statement is how do they reproduce?  Emphasis on male children will soon result in an empty country.  It also leads to the practice of sodomy.

     

    I tend to agree that the use of corporeal punishment is a good option for convicted rapists.  However, I think the cat-o-nine tails is a better instrument.  For rape I suggest 10 lashes for a first offence and 100 for the next.  Flogging round the fleet for the next (500 strokes) and that will end the career of the serial rapist permanently.

     

    In this case, since the victim died, after the flogging, clearly a public hanging is appropriate.  Sometimes a little barbarity is the best policy.

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    ^ One of the draw back of that statement is how do they reproduce?  Emphasis on male children will soon result in an empty country.  It also leads to the practice of sodomy.

     

    I tend to agree that the use of corporeal punishment is a good option for convicted rapists.  However, I think the cat-o-nine tails is a better instrument.  For rape I suggest 10 lashes for a first offence and 100 for the next.  Flogging round the fleet for the next (500 strokes) and that will end the career of the serial rapist permanently.

     

    In this case, since the victim died, after the flogging, clearly a public hanging is appropriate.  Sometimes a little barbarity is the best policy.

    Yes, lets lower ourselves to the level as these beasts. Rather than taking the high road to prove to ourselves that we are better than this, lets just let a base instincts take over and inflict supreme horrors on these idiots. 

     

    We should have moved beyond that level. We should be better than this. We show them mercy because we are morally and ethically superior to them in every way. We give them mercy exactly because they didnt show any for their victim, and in their final moments they will know that they are mere beasts and we are not. 

     

    Compare it to shooting dogs that bit someone. We don't hurt those dogs anymore than is necessary. We kill them in the quickest and most painless way possible, and we kill them not out of revenge but because these dogs pose an incurable danger to their environment. The same you do with criminals. You execute them because they are to dangerous to be let alive so we kill them in the most humane way possible. 

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    ^ One of the draw back of that statement is how do they reproduce?  Emphasis on male children will soon result in an empty country.  It also leads to the practice of sodomy.

     

    I tend to agree that the use of corporeal punishment is a good option for convicted rapists.  However, I think the cat-o-nine tails is a better instrument.  For rape I suggest 10 lashes for a first offence and 100 for the next.  Flogging round the fleet for the next (500 strokes) and that will end the career of the serial rapist permanently.

     

    In this case, since the victim died, after the flogging, clearly a public hanging is appropriate.  Sometimes a little barbarity is the best policy.

    Yes, lets lower ourselves to the level as these beasts. Rather than taking the high road to prove to ourselves that we are better than this, lets just let a base instincts take over and inflict supreme horrors on these idiots. 

     

    We should have moved beyond that level. We should be better than this. We show them mercy because we are morally and ethically superior to them in every way. We give them mercy exactly because they didnt show any for their victim, and in their final moments they will know that they are mere beasts and we are not. 

     

    Compare it to shooting dogs that bit someone. We don't hurt those dogs anymore than is necessary. We kill them in the quickest and most painless way possible, and we kill them not out of revenge but because these dogs pose an incurable danger to their environment. The same you do with criminals. You execute them because they are to dangerous to be let alive so we kill them in the most humane way possible. 

     

     

    One of the universally accepted functions of an execution system is to scare others into not following that person's example.  It is also accepted for that to be effective, the execution process needs to be conducted in a manner that is terrifying not only to the individual being executed, but to the general public at large.  Executions need to be something that leaves people mortified.

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  • Original Poster
  • Mortified?  Didn't you mean terrified?  My bit of sarcasm above seems to have been lost on some.

     

    However, I am leaning more and more toward humane but public executions.  Guillotine seems to be just about perfect.  Quick, and very, very bloody after the fact.

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    One of the universally accepted functions of an execution system is to scare others into not following that person's example.  It is also accepted for that to be effective, the execution process needs to be conducted in a manner that is terrifying not only to the individual being executed, but to the general public at large.  Executions need to be something that leaves people mortified.

    There are some things wrong with that line of reasoning. First of all, the death penalty working as a deterrent assumes that human beings are rational. They will choose life over death and as a result try to avoid behavior that results in death. As such, the deterring value lies with the part where the death penalty results in death. It does not matter one bit how that death comes. No person will not take a certain action if the penalty is a slow torturous death but go for it if the penalty is a quick and relatively painless death. The fact that the action gets him killed is the thing that might give him pause. 

     

    Second, the death penalty by itself is a pretty worthless deterrence. The number of people getting executed is way to low to be an actual deterrent.  

     

    Finally, there is still the bit (I think its even in your constitution) that says that cruel and unusual punishments are illegal. Meaning that you can't do inhumane, cruel and brutal forms of executions. If you do it, it has to be as quick and painless as possible. 

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    We used to disembowel, draw-and-quarter, and break people on the wheel in public spectacle.  We even displayed their gory severed heads on stakes or their whole rotting bodies in hanging cages.  Burning alive might even be considered the more pleasant way to go, at least when compared to slow boiling in oil or even flaying alive and having your re-stitched skin stuffed and paraded.  Public guillotine was originally the quick and humane punishment!  We even added in a much more fervent fear of divine punishment and eternal damnation through the all-powerful State church, which often sanctioned and prosecuted the Terror.  Yet, despite the bloody and public carnival horrors, criminal activity in the nightmare world wildly persisted, at rates far worse than today.

     

    We fear today that violent video games desensitize people to violence...just imagine what a daily dose of publically broadcasted and State-sponsored torture and executions would do to young, impressionable minds.  What might they later be willing to accept or even do as adults?

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    Punishment

     

    Pros

     

    1. Teaches the crims a lesson morally, that is if it is done proportionally and they can learn from the method employed (here punishment could also just be a jail sentence or period of reflection)

     

    2. Deters others, depending on severity and length (length alone is enough for some things. Unless you truly believe in the almighty whoever and that they condone your actions a life sentence is a pretty big deal for most of us freedom lovers)

     

    3. Satisfies public thirst for blood. Real tangible tasteable blood. Blood of victims. The stuff we all pretend we don't want to see on the news because we are disgusted at our own desire to see these things. The reason video games exist other than Simcity. This is hardly a good thing, but it satisfies a demand.

     

    4. Belief in a divine 'justice' or fairness. However all things considered this is rather a silly way of correcting a problem

     

    5. Trapping mice and shooting wild dogs. Utilitarian problem solving. The reason I believe in the death sentence being more widely practiced for hopeless cases. t's more humane for them as well, so this is also a cleaner more morally superior Jesusy way of doing things. (Mind you Jesus believed in Hell but that's another can of worms)

     

    Cons

     

    1. Inhumane/barbaric for the victim. Makes barbarians out of us. Makes us look like we have no other resort. Makes us look weak and desperate.

     

    2. Costly and ineffective

     

    3. The law is often contradictory or vague. One judge might be more lenient than another.

     

    4. Framing people, lacking of evidence of a definite nature, wrong time at wrong place etc.

     

    5. Mental illness. Who is mad? Who is accountable for their actions?

     

    6. Turns crime into black and white 'good vs evil' battle, even though the law is just the law of the day and governors are just those appointed to deal with the law. Makes men into Gods.

     

    7. Unless severe and consistently carried out is ineffective at preventing the weeds, and can only cut some of them above the root.

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    Okay, a couple of cents.

     

    First of all, I agree with Lexus on this. And as a woman I find it sad that every time a bunch of guys discuss rape, they end up talking about sadistic punishments etc., instead of discussing the real issue: What on earth is it that makes some men able to commit these acts? And, if men are the "problem" here, are they also the solution?

     

    There is a rape culture, not only in India, where women are property (even visiting as a westerner was pretty uncomfortable at times, unless I was with a man), but also here, in our countries. Cases like the Steubenville case show it. Even in our "civilized" cultures there are lots of rapes happening, thousands and thousands, every year, and a lot of the rapists are never caught. A lot of the rapists are not even considered rapists. After all, if I drink too much I evidently lose ownership my own body and therefore, others can do with it as they please. It's a twisted way of thinking, and I think there is a core to it:

     

    The core is that women, still very much to this day, are considered first and foremost as sexual objects. We all might disagree to this, or claim we don't view women that way. And in a lot of settings, we don't. But still, it's true. Just think about it: How many sexually posing, half-naked women do you see every day? In shoes commercials, coffee commercials, music videos, you name it. It is so common we don't think about it anymore. The woman's body is used as a tool to sell something, that has nothing to do with it in any way.

     

    Okay, to get this back on track. The reason I'm saying this is because it seems that, somewhere, somehow, we lost the ability to connect a woman's body with her self, her individuality, her personality, her brain. We're so used to seeing half-naked women, we barely think of them as people. We don't see that billboard and wonder who the person behind it is. And this abuse of the female body for marketing purposes is a part of the problem. If you're, whether you know it or now, constantly shown imagery (be it in music videos or whatever) of women as objects, of women whose purpose in the video or whatever they're in is to please one or more men sexually, then I think that does something to you. I think that if you see a scantily clad woman then, you unknowingly connect the dots and think she is offering herself, as the half-naked women in the videos or whatever. But as long as she is talking to you, you are reminded that she is another person. 

     

    Clearly, that reminder disappears out the window the moment someone falls unconscious. Then she is just one of those bodies again. I could be stretching here, but I can't for the life of me understand why I am entitled to my own body sober but NOT entitled to it if I get really drunk. It is as though my body was never really mine, but I'm holding on to it desperately until I lose control of myself and then it's not mine anymore. And not just men think this way, women do too. A lot of the people supporting the Steubenville rapists were young girls their own age, classmates of the victim. Because they felt that she had been stupid, she had been drinking too much, and then you can't expect anything else.

     

    This mentality is a HUGE problem. And I think guys need to talk about THAT, and what to do about it, and talk with their mates about it, and stop laughing at jokes about it, to change something. Because, hard as it might be to fathom for most of us, ordinary people can be rapists if they get the chance. That's scary. Everyone aren't monsters like the Indian guys, some people are just really drunk high-schoolers who are too full of themselves and drunk, too.

     

    I think Cpt. Johnny said some of it - I mean, imagine Joffrey Baratheon. His mother basically teaches him he's a self-righteous God from the day he's a little kid, than the world is his playground and he can do whatever he wants. So he does. This is probably the same. They said the same thing about the Steubenville rapists aswell - that their football team was treated like heroes, by everyone (their coach was "strict" and gave them a one-match quarantine when he heard about the rape, before it exploded in the news). And so are a lot of men in India. That is probably part of the problem. I think you need to look at yourself as superior to be able to do stuff like this. We know humans can be cruel, hundreds of thousands of years of wars, killings, torture has proven that to us. 

     

    I don't even know what I'm trying to say with this post - probably that discussing punishment doesnt do anything any good. Discussing WHY people rape and if there is anything we can do, contribute, be it raising our daughters to know that they are ALWAYS entitled to their own bodies, that no form of harassment is okay, while teaching our sons the same, be it just TALKING about this as something other than just something happening in a faraway country, is the only thing that will do any good. 

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    Well while I appreciate your obvious superior viewpoint on the matter I would say this.

     

    1. I was exposed to more than normal amounts of that sort of thing as a young man and certainly I didn't turn into a rapist. I never even had a girlfriend as  was homeschooled, and if I had I wouldn't have had that sort of thing on my mind until I had secured her permanently by some means, and only in the normal accepted fashion thereafter.

     

    2. I agree it is a problem, this objectifying of women. However like most things 'adult' or attractive to the uncultured masses but also somewhat harmful to their progression, if you simply ban these things they just go underground. In the Victorian era they had porn. And obviously you don't want to return to restrictions on your liberty anyway. So the problem here is how do you deal with this objectification in the media without just turning into a flimsy 'let's ban nakedness in commercials' campaigner?

     

    The issue as you rightly say is the 'rape culture', that is the 'core' of which you speak, the concept of women as objects. I never viewed them as such even when I was exposed to that sort of thing, but then again I hated boys at school so I naturally did't 'look up' to them as role models. People who were romanticised like Captain Cook and Beethoven I tended to look up to more than Cartman or Bart (although I admit I wished to be like Bart, but that was so I could be normal and not a homeschooled loser). The problem is that if you want to change an entire cultural perception on a hugely important issue to said culture, you need to do it in a way that doesn't seem restraining, but freeing.

     

    One must be careful not to talk of anything as being bad but as being lame, as I learnt at school. Things must be 'uncool' or 'old fashioned'. So this objectification must be made to seem old school and dated. You need to introduce something to replace it which won't end up being merely a fad of the age. It has to be grounded in strong principles. Almost a new code of conduct for society.

     

    Now one could argue that good manners are the key here, not attempting to rape a lady is certainly good manners. But that is considered 'old hat' these days. So instead you need something hip. Treating women badly must become 'so last year' as they say. And in order for that you must have a combined effort on all fronts utilising whatever resources become available, capturing key strategic points until you have a web of victories from which to take a final assault on the enemy.

     

    Or something like that

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    I'm not sure if objectifying women by itself is really the cause of rape. I mean sure, it goes pretty far these days. But our culture objectifies men as well. How often don't I see a billboard of some tight looking abs in a pair of jeans? Or scruffy looking men next to some male odor? But granted, in general I think its safe to say that females are objectified a lot more than males. But how is this linked to rape? Sure, if you dehumanize a person its easier to do terrible things to them. But I always figured that rape was more of a power thing. A way for someone to express dominance over a person. If that person is dehumanized in the eyes of the rapist, the whole power aspect of it becomes less. I mean, forcefully expressing power over a thing is not much of an accomplishment. Forcefully expressing power over a person on the other hand, would make you look stronger. That is not to say that objectification of women doesn't play a role, I just think it does so only to a limited extend. 

     

    Obviously the above thing is more the profile of the classical rapist. Teens do it for different reasons. Maybe objectification plays a role, but again I'm not sure. I mean, they rape girls at parties, often they are from the same school. They are girls they interact with on a daily basis. They know these girls are people simply because of the interaction. You objectify someone by creating a mental distance between yourself and the person you are objectifying. It works on billboards and tv because you can show someone as an object who has no voice of her own. But if you go to school with someone, you are constantly exposed to the person as someone with her own voice. 

     

    I think in part teens do it because parents didn't raise their boys with the idea that no means no. The focus is to much on telling girls not to get raped, thus placing the responsibility of rape with the victim rather than the rapist. And even then, it happens at parties with teens who are shitfaced and who are part of certain peer pressure groups. Group thinking might be a problem here. Its been shown that individual responsibility can diminish significantly when you are part of a group. If the group dynamics are in a certain way, and there is a certain group culture, combined with alcohol, I think its safe you got a disaster just waiting to happen. 

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    Okay, just to clarify a few things. I didn't try to say that all men are bad, most aren't. And I don't think objectification necessarily LEADS to rape, I agree that it is mostly about power (there are different kind of rapists though, with different triggers). But to some extent I think objectification legitimates it, whether we are aware of it or not. We still judge women who dress "slutty" or sleep around.

     

    Even here, in Norway, where I'm from, a recent study showed that almost half of Norwegian men thought women were partly to blame if they had been flirting with the rapist earlier. A large amount thought the same way if the woman was drunk or known for having many sex partners.

     

    It is again as though someone loses their right to decide over their own bodies if they "give it away" to strangers. There was also a case here with a girl who was raped where the court considering it "redeeming" that the girl was known for sleeping with strangers, and this clearly told the rapists she might be open for sleeping with them aswell. It's weird this is still acceptable thinking, especially in COURT.

     

    When it comes to India, disregard for women is a factor, but I think there's something more to it. And this has always happened, we just notice it more now. In addition, they have also started raping foreigners, which is sure to get media attention. A French woman and an English woman if I remember correctly were also gang-raped while visiting the country. Maybe this is some sort of a daring sport, who knows. And this probably has some sort of a "chain effect" like you see with suicides - if some people do it, it inspires others.

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    No, India is not different then how it used to be. India is just starting to develop and claim its place on the world stage. That means it gets more media attention. Also, this rape caused massive riots and protests, which turned it into a bigger issue, thus gaining more media attention. Since then, the media started reporting more rapes in India because they want to be there from the start for when the next big rape case happens which sets the country on fire. But as a result, it suddenly appears like rapes are more common in India then before when in reality those rapes have always been occurring, but were just never reported in the Western media. 

     

    And well, as for why it happens, India simply has an extremely misogynistic society. The fact that there are only about 800 girls for every 1000 guys is not because they love girls that much. Its safe to say that India has a culture that hates women, and as a result it means that men feel they can get away with rape. And to be precise, until last year they generally got away with rape extremely easily. Rape was either not reported or the police did nothing to investigate it. Hell, this case would probably have remain unsolved if it wasn't for the massive women rights protests that it caused. 

     

     

    And I agree, victim blaming is unacceptable especially in court. It should be simple, anything less than a clear yes means no. And no doesn't suddenly mean yes if the girl has slept around with a lot of other guys before that. You'd think that would be common sense. 

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    When it comes to teens you have a whole nother cornucopia or problems because you're dealing with people doing drastic things who are not mature enough to properly consider the consequences of their actions. So many bad stories about teens seem to start with an unchaperoned party... the adults, in this case, have to have some responsibility as the actual offenders and victims are minors.

     

    As for the question of "she got drunk, she was asking for it", etc., yeah, that's a lame excuse.

    In terms of arguments over what to do about it, though, I think perhaps it is helpful to examine those sorts of stories not in terms of fault but in terms simply of cause and effect. A drunk flirting woman is not to blame for getting raped, but that is, in part, a cause of it happening - in the sense that if said woman were not drunk and flirting, said rape could not have occurred because the offender would not have had the opportunity. And opportunity is one of the three necessary ingredients for a crime to be committed (the other two are motive and means).

     

    At that point it's a question of scold the predators versus arm the prey. I mean, yeah, a-hole, don't turn the nice lady into an unwanted conquest. That's just basic civility. :meh: If we can teach people this, perhaps we can remove some of the motive. And if parents can take better responsibility for their teenage children, that might in some cases also address the means (teens with unfettered access to alcohol? Bad news for so many reasons).

    But the fact then remains that if we want a full three pronged approach to attack the problem from all sides, opportunity must also be addressed. So yes, young women do need to be taught how to avoid being taken advantage of by men at the same time they are taught it is not their fault if they fail to do so. It's just street smarts, knowing how to avoid and get away from bad people (who will always exist).

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