EUHR Court rules life sentences against human rights.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

1. I think that Capital Punishment should be on the table, just like the nuclear option is on the table. Have it as a deterrent, not as a common punishment.

2. When technology progresses far enough, reeducation and conditioning of violent criminals can be beneficial. Either that or have literal ghettos for those who have come out of prison but have not yet integrated into society. Civilization could also build or designate "safe zones" or "quarantine areas" where those that committed violent crimes cannot go.

3. Our civilization has the ability to end world hunger and poverty but is too decadent and corrupt to do so. It would take an exceptional circumstance to improve the global civilization instead of it declining slowly (or worse).

--Ocram

[timmie 988]

^^Yeah and a liberal democracy started two wold wars and committed genocide.

 

Yes, in the first half of the 20th century. We are no longer in the first half of the 20th century. German society has changed fundamentally. They reflected on WWII and the reasons why it started in a very mature way after the war.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

That all ended around 70 years ago.  Let it go.  I have.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

If only the Japanese will fully repent for their war atrocities like the Germans, East Asia would be a much more stable and prosperous place than it is now.

[Easy Bakes 253]

If only the Japanese will fully repent for their war atrocities like the Germans, East Asia would be a much more stable and prosperous place than it is now.

I Think NMUSpidey  once said they dont teach much history in Japanese schools, it may be best to just let it lie.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

 

If only the Japanese will fully repent for their war atrocities like the Germans, East Asia would be a much more stable and prosperous place than it is now.

I Think NMUSpidey  once said they dont teach much history in Japanese schools, it may be best to just let it lie.

 

They do teach history in schools, but they revise it to cast themselves and their recent ancestors in a favourable light.

 

This is the one of the worst accusations I've ever come across:

 

 

With this kind of people still existing in Japan, do you think there can be peace?

[timmie 988]

That's what many 'great nations' do. History lessons are often biased in favour of the 'great nation'. The French do it, the British probably too ('the great British Empire, blah blah blah'),... Shows yet again that history can be a powerful weapon.

[LexusInfernus 908]

That kind of attitude will ensure there will be no peace, but that lack of peace will mostly be your own responsibility rather than Japan's lack of historical awareness. 

 

Yeah, Japan did some really horrible bad things. In return they are the only country to ever get nuked and their cities were firebombed and also occupied. They suffered too. Now, you can keep dwelling on the past and keep harboring a grudge over it, or you could realize that the Japan of back then is not the Japan of today and move on. 

[Cpt Johnny 58]

That kind of attitude will ensure there will be no peace, but that lack of peace will mostly be your own responsibility rather than Japan's lack of historical awareness. 

 

Yeah, Japan did some really horrible bad things. In return they are the only country to ever get nuked and their cities were firebombed and also occupied. They suffered too. Now, you can keep dwelling on the past and keep harboring a grudge over it, or you could realize that the Japan of back then is not the Japan of today and move on. 

It's the denial that hurts the most. Not that we want to harp over it, but the current Shinzo administration is run by a grandson of a convicted war criminal.

 

And please explain the words in red.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

One of the greatest sins in the Christian ethic is to visit the sins of the fathers on the sons.  This is an affront to God, if there is one.  Christian ethic is one of forgiveness, not grudge holding.

 

And don't forget that the winners write history.

 

The basic cause of the poor performance by U.S. Forces at Pearl Harbour was due to a lot of bumbling by a lot of people who refused to believe that they could be in a war.  Decisions were made by low ranking officers (a Lieutenant in one case) that caused early warnings to be ignored in favour of having their Sunday brunch.  Lots of stupidity between branches of the services too.  Some of them actually knew the date of the attack, but kept it because it was secret, and they were afraid to let anyone know they'd broken the Japanese code.  Even the Brits knew.  They didn't have any secure communications channels and the phone lines between Washington and Hawaii were down so they sent a telegram which didn't get to Admiral Kimmel until after the attack.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

One of the greatest sins in the Christian ethic is to visit the sins of the fathers on the sons.  This is an affront to God, if there is one.  Christian ethic is one of forgiveness, not grudge holding.

I'm not a Christian, and will never become one. Buddhists (and Hindus as well) believe in karma.

[LexusInfernus 908]

And please explain the words in red.

If you cannot move beyond the past and keep making an issue out of it, whatever comes out of that is just as much your responsibility as it is Japan's. 

[Cpt Johnny 58]

If you cannot move beyond the past and keep making an issue out of it, whatever comes out of that is just as much your responsibility as it is Japan's. 

It's not like I enjoy making an issue out of it.

 

Can you possibly control the minds of 1.3 billion people?

 

How to resolve the issue except to get Japan to officially repent for their disgusting behaviour?

 

The greatest difference between Germany and Japan is that while Germany has officially apologised and paid reparations to their victims, Japan hasn't.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Under the code of Bushido, the Japanese did nothing wrong.  This still echoes strongly in the Japanese personna.  It was a disgraceful period and a colossal mistake, but it is in the past. 

 

One should generally look to the future while avoiding the mistakes of the past.  It is far too late to offer apologies, most of the affronted are dead.  Always remember that tomorrow never comes.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

It is far too late to offer apologies, most of the affronted are dead.

 

Look at the quote below.

 

German society has changed fundamentally. They reflected on WWII and the reasons why it started in a very mature way after the war.

The Japanese are expected to have done that, but they haven't. Not in the slightest.

They claim that there were no comfort women forcibly recruited by the Japanese soldiers during the war. Here they are:

 

 

The Chinese have a saying: 男子汉大丈夫, 敢做敢当 (As a man, be responsible for whatever you do)

 

The Japanese also know and understand this saying, but they won't admit to the atrocities that they have inflicted on their victims. This is the ultimate tragedy.

[AkemiAzula 280]

The past is the past. Every nation has been through a stage of what would be considered these days immoral behaviour. Torture, mass extermination processes and imprisonment of the insane were quite common in most now 'civilised' nations until relatively recently. Remember what Watson said to Holmes, that had he lived a few centuries prior, he'd be burnt as a witch. 

 

Life sentences/death penalties are an ongoing debate, whereas pogroms and genecides are generally considered to be archaic methods which due to the multicultural nature of the world can never 'win'. It is like the arms race. If we wished for some reason to kill all the people in the southern hemisphere and they wished to kill all of us we'd be stuck in a neverending stalemate firing rockets at the Equator.

 

I still consider killing a criminal not a punishment but a method of solving a problem. Criminals are weeds, whether they choose to be or not, and as such they should be weeded in some manner. I think in many cases it is indeed more humane to kill them than to keep them imprisoned, so don't call me anti-liberal or a fascist. Besides there is the resource utilisation argument. Keeping them alive wastes resources. If the probability of rehab is low, shoot em.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

I still consider killing a criminal not a punishment but a method of solving a problem. Criminals are weeds, whether they choose to be or not, and as such they should be weeded in some manner. I think in many cases it is indeed more humane to kill them than to keep them imprisoned, so don't call me anti-liberal or a fascist. Besides there is the resource utilisation argument. Keeping them alive wastes resources. If the probability of rehab is low, shoot em.

Better still, throw them into a large cauldron of boiling soup.

 

You Westerners are too soft on hardcore criminals. In the East, we still follow the olden day laws:

 

We give them 18 levels of hell

cauldren-boiling-oil.jpeg

BTW, this has nothing to do with Japanese hentai-ness during the war. That is absolutely unforgivable.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Punishment is illogical and emotional. It isn't the way of a rational enlightened man such as myself. I'd rather just weed criminals rather than enjoy punishing them. Waste of time.

 

Criminality and evil are two different things. Prisons are not for servants of the Devil. The law isn't run by the archbishop of Canterbury these days.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

Punishment is illogical and emotional. It isn't the way of a rational enlightened man such as myself. I'd rather just weed criminals rather than enjoy punishing them. Waste of time.

 

Criminality and evil are two different things. Prisons are not for servants of the Devil. The law isn't run by the archbishop of Canterbury these days.

The so-called 'punishment' of throwing convicted offenders into a large cauldron of boiling soup is just an artefact of Chinese religion and culture. The 18 levels of hell is part of the Buddhist concept of karma, and it is quite different from the Christian concept of sin and guilt.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I aint religious so I don't get 'karma' and 'Hell' etc. I believe in weeds, however, and in weeding. I am too rational to want to punish weeds. I throw them on the compost heap.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

I aint religious so I don't get 'karma' and 'Hell' etc. I believe in weeds, however, and in weeding. I am too rational to want to punish weeds. I throw them on the compost heap.

So you are still religious. Your religion is just different from the rest, how about naming it 'weedism'

 

and I'll be the first follower

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Both of you need to join my Church of God the Utterly Indifferent.  We have no concept of sin and punishment.  Only of actions and consequences, be they reward or otherwise.  Every man makes his own bed, and must lie in it.

[LexusInfernus 908]

It's not like I enjoy making an issue out of it.

 

Can you possibly control the minds of 1.3 billion people?

 

How to resolve the issue except to get Japan to officially repent for their disgusting behaviour?

 

The greatest difference between Germany and Japan is that while Germany has officially apologised and paid reparations to their victims, Japan hasn't.

 

The time to repent has already passed. It is ridiculous to hold the current generation responsible for what their parents or grandparents did during the war. Or have them repent for it. 

 

There is two things you can do. The first thing you can do is make a huge issue out of this and teach the next generation to make a huge issue out of this. Never forget and never forgive. The second thing is give it a place and move on. Recognize the fact that the people responsible are dead or will soon be dead. A perfect time for a fresh start. Of course, if Japan retracts its original apology it should have some political consequences, but for gods sake, don't blow this out of proportion. 

 

And the greatest difference between Europe and Asia was not that Germany was all sorry and what not. Yeah sure, they were sorry, but the rest of Europe pretty much forgave them and moved on. They accepted it and afterwards treated Germany like everything was normal again. 

[Cpt Johnny 58]

Both of you need to join my Church of God the Utterly Indifferent.  We have no concept of sin and punishment.  Only of actions and consequences, be they reward or otherwise.  Every man makes his own bed, and must lie in it.

 

I'm not a Christian, and will never become one. 

 

[AkemiAzula 280]

Death sentencing is a state issue, not a church issue.

 

It is a matter of public safety and convenience, not of punishing sins of wrongdoers.

 

If the likelihood of somebody being rehabilitated successfully and properly (i.e not living in safe houses on life support with fifteen attendants) back into society is so narrow that investment in keeping alive the criminal would be a waste of resources, imho said criminal should be destroyed in whatever manner appeals to the people of that nation, my preference being the simplest, beheading or shooting. (The more complex methods such as chemical ones I don't fully understand)

 

Life sentences are punishments. They are archaic religious punishments for sinners. They are revenge. If somebody is too unsafe to live in the community they should be shot. There simply isn't enough space and resources on this planet to give the evil people their own island. Keeping people in jails fills up prison capacity and creates resentment within prisons which might rub off on lower time servers.

 

If the longer time serving members of a prison initiate a pecking order the lower time servers will become involved in this and will be likely affected negatively by it. We hardly want the worst criminals sticking around to advise the Vaders of the world below them. 

 

Yes most prisons are segregated or built for specific types of criminals, but the criminal world is a networked world. There's nothing quite as social as antisocial people when they want to do evil

 

Mind you I have never done anything criminal beyond riding a bike without a helmet for a short distance so... I hardly know.

 

I think there are four types of criminals.

 

1. The insane, those who aren't in control of their mind or are severely misinformed, such as cult members.

 

2. Those part of gang culture or otherwise pressured and conformed into a life of crime, or those who commit out of near-necessity/necessity

 

3. Those who commit a crime for ideological or political reasons (suffragettes, Mandela etc)

 

4. Those who are truly 'evil', servants of Satan and who enjoy committing evil acts for their own sake. Possibly a product of Part 1? 'Evil' is an identifiable entity, even if its source and nature may still be fuzzy. 

 

I think from both a moral and logical perspective life sentences achieve nothing, especially if there isn't a possibility of reconsideration.

[Bdub01 201]

Both of you need to join my Church of God the Utterly Indifferent. We have no concept of sin and punishment. Only of actions and consequences, be they reward or otherwise. Every man makes his own bed, and must lie in it.

I tend to worship the god of slumber. It's great, you worship Him by sleeping. If you pray to Him that wakes Him up and He becomes angry!!!

As for Japan apologizing for WWII, it was war!!! Bad things happen in war. Beside would apologizing info ANYTHING that happened during the war? And it was almost 75 years ago. Where does it stop? Should the people in Rome apologize to the people that live where Carthage was? Let it go and move forward.

Finally, I feel that capital punishment is just that, a punishment for a crime. Maybe if we brought back the Hammuriba Code there would be less crime today.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Well I have always felt that had Egypt remained devoted to Isis instead of Mohammed the country would be faring better these days... Also whatever happened to Odin and Thor?

 

But seriously though this really is a state issue we are debating here. The religious position on killing is a whole other issue. 

 

On Japan and Germany I think it is definitely logical to argue that we must consider these things in their contexts and within relativity. My great grandparents were exiled to Siberia by Stalin but I don't have nothing against him personally. Just because Rolf Harris is a paedophile doesn't mean his music is any less popular.

[Cpt Johnny 58]

As for Japan apologizing for WWII, it was war!!! Bad things happen in war. Beside would apologizing info ANYTHING that happened during the war? And it was almost 75 years ago. Where does it stop? Should the people in Rome apologize to the people that live where Carthage was? Let it go and move forward.

Had Japan not blatantly denied all evidence of the atrocities which they committed, they would not have been hated so much by the Chinese and Koreans. Those who denied the Nanking atrocities are no better than the Holocaust deniers.

[timmie 988]

I very much disagree with what is being said about Japan here. It's not just 'something of the past'. Of course, it is not like they should pay reparations now, that's far too late and not necessary. What is, however, necessary, is that countries reflect on what they did, that they try to teach it to their children (and that they try to be as objective as possible when doing so), and that they take responsibility. Germany did this: it looked itself in the eye, and this has been beneficial for the German society, which is today, thanks to that reflection and confrontation, a healthy democratic society. However, Japan plays down what it did in the war and offers its children a very coloured view of history (granted, every view is coloured, but proper historians at least try to be objective).

 

This is not about revenge, or about sorry, or about whatever. It is about a country actively playing down what it did and promoting that view among the population. That's wrong.

 

(I would welcome a thorough American reflection on the use of the atom bombs too.)

[LexusInfernus 908]

I very much disagree with what is being said about Japan here. It's not just 'something of the past'. Of course, it is not like they should pay reparations now, that's far too late and not necessary. What is, however, necessary, is that countries reflect on what they did, that they try to teach it to their children (and that they try to be as objective as possible when doing so), and that they take responsibility. Germany did this: it looked itself in the eye, and this has been beneficial for the German society, which is today, thanks to that reflection and confrontation, a healthy democratic society. However, Japan plays down what it did in the war and offers its children a very coloured view of history (granted, every view is coloured, but proper historians at least try to be objective).

 

This is not about revenge, or about sorry, or about whatever. It is about a country actively playing down what it did and promoting that view among the population. That's wrong.

 

(I would welcome a thorough American reflection on the use of the atom bombs too.)

Yes, but what Japan does and does not do is not for us to judge, nor is it our place to tell them what to do. Let the Japanese figure out how they want to deal with their history, whether they just want to forget it or if they want to take the German route. Which by the way, also has some very unhealthy aspects to it. 

 

And if other countries want to hate Japan for their historical views, well, thats their right. But if things go south because of it, well, they are responsible for it themselves as well then.