Simcity 2013 Plophell

[Cob92 360]

Now I do agree that having high voltage lines running between the cities in the region would look nice. Also, what Maxis could have done is have it so that you start off with overhead powerlines above your roads, but have the option to bury them to protect against disasters and for aesthetics. Have a slight boost to desirability in the area if the power lines are buried, but with higher costs to set up and maintain underground lines.

[Zukunftstraume 220]

despite Ocean saying something like "this is a game for everyone" which i think is a dangerous thing to say.

He was most likely just referring to the idea of having specialized cities. So by that, he probably meant, if you're a gambler you can build a casino-city, if you're slightly antagonistic you can build a dirty-polluted city, if you're highly antagonistic you can build a city and bombard it with a string of disasters, if you're a peaceful neo-hippy you can build a small town filled with parks, small stores, and a colossal wind farm.

I don't see how you can make the argument that SimCity is not both simple and complex given it is both

1. The game is quick to pick up for beginners (on the basis of the pre-release play throughs various play throughs various outlets have written up)
   
   
2. The simulator itself is much more complicated than Simcity 4's
   

If Maxis had intended to make a simple game they wouldn't have invested hundreds of person-hours in an agent based simulator. You could far more basic heuristics if you wanted to make a cheap and simple game.

The glassbox engine itself only makes the game more complex in the simulation sense, but in no other sense beyond that. If building a city, placing density, zoning, managing services, nuking the idea of building a metropolis, and completely annihilating the beautiful art of terraforming an entire region has been dumbed down this much, then this game is not complex, and in fact very simple. Complexity? Sorry, the glassbox isn't enough to save the game, it only makes things look cute.

[Ma8thew 77]

The glassbox engine itself only makes the game more complex in the simulation sense, but in no other sense beyond that. If building a city, placing density, zoning, managing services, nuking the idea of building a metropolis, and completely annihilating the beautiful art of terraforming an entire region has been dumbed down this much, then this game is not complex, and in fact very simple. Complexity? Sorry, the glassbox isn't enough to save the game, it only makes things look cute.

Speaking as a computer scientist, if I were setting out to make a simple and cute looking game I would not bother to implement an agent based simulator. There is one sole reason for implementing the simulator in the way that Maxis has, and that is in order to provide complex gameplay that is more realistic than anything in prior versions of the game. The raison d'être of Glassbox is better simulation, not better aesthetics. There is certainly a loss in apparent complexity because you have fewer choices in transport, zoning, smaller cities etc., but the actual complexity of the game is higher. What I am saying is that Maxis have swapped complexity in one aspect of the game for complexity in another aspect.

[CaptCity 4,752]

Once again, let's keep it on topic. More specifically...? Maxis business tactics/practices were not part of the beta and not relevant to this topic. You may like them or dislike it, your choice, but we don't need to argue it here. Also, name calling is never acceptable...

[JoeB123 2]

At least power lines between cities if you have a power contract.. Or is it normal in "modern" times to put high voltages under a highway..

There are places in the world where digging for power lines is too expensive as of the rocky ground.

For me it adds something to the game. Clearly not for you...

The simcity 4 power system was fine only needed the lines in open areas and they where just under the roads.

[Zukunftstraume 220]

The glassbox engine itself only makes the game more complex in the simulation sense, but in no other sense beyond that. If building a city, placing density, zoning, managing services, nuking the idea of building a metropolis, and completely annihilating the beautiful art of terraforming an entire region has been dumbed down this much, then this game is not complex, and in fact very simple. Complexity? Sorry, the glassbox isn't enough to save the game, it only makes things look cute.

Speaking as a computer scientist, if I were setting out to make a simple and cute looking game I would not bother to implement an agent based simulator. There is one sole reason for implementing the simulator in the way that Maxis has, and that is in order to provide complex gameplay that is more realistic than anything in prior versions of the game. The raison d'être of Glassbox is better simulation, not better aesthetics. There is certainly a loss in apparent complexity because you have fewer choices in transport, zoning, smaller cities etc., but the actual complexity of the game is higher. What I am saying is that Maxis have swapped complexity in one aspect of the game for complexity in another aspect.

My perception of complexity has always been how in depth all the aspects of the game are, not just one. But, I could be terribly wrong. Regardless, the new direction where their main focus was the glassbox as opposed to depth of tools and complete sandbox of the game was unexpected and grabbed most of us by surprise in a mainly negative way.

[BravoGreenONE 120]

I dont understand the argument as to whether the game needs to be more simple. If it was well planned it could be both simple and complex. Its called....wait for it........difficulty levels, automation and manual options, modddability, options to turn simulation parts on or off. the game can be programmed to run complex simulations or ignore various rules.

It baffles me. What if you were in a restaurant and you were told that you could not order a steak because the guy at the next table has stated he does not like steak. What if the waiter told you that everyone at the table had to order the same items as well as the same portion size . Im sure you'd be left scratching your head. So why is that mentality so readily accepted here?

I don't see how you can make the argument that SimCity is not both simple and complex given it is both

1. The game is quick to pick up for beginners (on the basis of the pre-release play throughs various play throughs various outlets have written up)
   
2. The simulator itself is much more complicated than Simcity 4's
   

If Maxis had intended to make a simple game they wouldn't have invested hundreds of person-hours in an agent based simulator. You could far more basic heuristics if you wanted to make a cheap and simple game.

I do not understand how this game can be classified as anything but simplistic. The developers, the originator and every press release i have seen stated that simcity was rebooted because sc4 was too complex. i just think they may have scaled it back a bit too much.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Speaking as a computer scientist, if I were setting out to make a simple and cute looking game I would not bother to implement an agent based simulator. There is one sole reason for implementing the simulator in the way that Maxis has, and that is in order to provide complex gameplay that is more realistic than anything in prior versions of the game. The raison d'être of Glassbox is better simulation, not better aesthetics. There is certainly a loss in apparent complexity because you have fewer choices in transport, zoning, smaller cities etc., but the actual complexity of the game is higher. What I am saying is that Maxis have swapped complexity in one aspect of the game for complexity in another aspect.

I thought SC4 was a bit of an agent-simulator? Think about it... A residential building has 500 people of which 400 are of working age (16-65) and each one of them is looking for jobs. So we have demand for 400 jobs which can either be satisfied by commercial or industrial vacancies provided the sims can reach said buildings (which are offering the jobs), these sims are 'agents' and though you don't see it in SC4 the agent system is very much part of the simulator. How else could SC4 have reached such a depth and satisfying complexity with its simulation?

In fact I'd argue that SC4's simulation is probably more complex because there is an agent-simulator and a lot more factors for determining buildings and their generation and existence: parcel size, desirability, demand caps, stage caps, the wealth scale ($ to $$$), higher wealth displacing lower wealth, commute trips for residential, developer types, occupancy, density, tile counting, demand effects of RCI structures, tax rates influencing demand, non-RCI buildings providing demand cap relief, neighbour connections, overdevelopment, reoccupation of abandoned buildings, and so on. There's probably a hundred other factors and more subtle ones you would probably not notice.

SC4's greatness resided in the development of RCI, which is the root and core of that game. The non-RCI structures constituted only a small part in how the RCI developed and it's those inner RCI mechanics which made SC4 so riveting to play because there's thousands of things going on, and you can mould some of those factors and experiment with different city designs. With SC5 it seems non-RCI buildings are now far more important and RCI mechanics have been drastically stricken down so you can't control RCI development as much.

The 'agent-simulator' seems to me like a lexicon banded about to say SC5 has greater complexity than SC4 (which did have an agent simulator), and perhaps it does, but if it comes with less control of the simulator that means less fun and a less complex game. SC4 allowed incredible control over RCI, can SC5 say the same?

[Numpty Dumpty 17]

SC4 is not an agent simulator. It's a mathematical simulator If anything.

In SC4, garbage collects because you don't have x amount of garbage storage for y amount of garbage created.

In SC2013, garbage collection depends on whether a truck actually goes to each building in the city and collects garbage from it. If you have traffic issues between the garbage depot and places where trash builds, then you can run into problems and you have to consider more than simply adding more capacity to deal with that issue.

That is more complex than SC4.

In SC4, you could build a totally segregated area of industry and somehow there'd be buildings popping up with employees somehow working there.

In SC2013, your businesses do not run unless a sim(agent) literally goes there and works in that building. And if they're the only sim there and they go to work for another business the next day, that business will cease to operate unless another sim literally leaves their house in the morning and goes to work there.

That is more complex than SC4.

In SC4, when an emergency vehicle needed to get to an emergency, it would simply steam down the roads and any traffic would literally disintegrate.

In SC2013, if you have congestion problems, your emergency services will be less effective because every car causing that congestion actually exists in the simulation as a "physical" entity that can't simply "vanish" from the game.

That is more complex than SC4.

In SC2013, every single thing you see in the game is a thing that exists that directly affects another part of the simulation in some way. Every person on the street has a reason for being there. Every car that contributes to traffic can be seen.

Not so for SimCity 4.

"Physical" interaction between agents and buildings and mathematical interaction are different things, presenting different challenges and different presentation to the person playing the game.

I don't think its the same at all.

[Ma8thew 77]

The 'agent-simulator' seems to me like a lexicon banded about to say SC5 has greater complexity than SC4 (which did have an agent simulator), and perhaps it does, but if it comes with less control of the simulator that means less fun and a less complex game. SC4 allowed incredible control over RCI, can SC5 say the same?

Actually, SimCity 4 did not simulate in this manner. It is a system level simulator. SimCity genuinely simulates every sim, every packet of electricity water and sewage and every vehicle. SimCity 4 did not do this. I don't know the precise details of how it worked, but I believe it estimated how the city should behave based on a current conditions. For example, in Simcity 4 the traffic would be estimated as follows: the game knows where the residents of each building works, so it calculates their path to work. It then estimates how busy each road would be. The visualisation of cars on the road is based on this estimate. While Simcity 4 knows where the residents of the building work, they are not agents in the technical sense. Whereas in SimCity the residents of each building are simulated leaving for work and driving to work and the amount of traffic is determined this way. The visualisation is based on the simulation of the location of sims, not an estimate. It is more faithful to reality but vastly more computationally expensive.

Agent based simulator is a well defined technical term, so unless Maxis are outright lying, SimCity's simulation is significantly more complex than Simcity 4's. This explains why tiles are smaller: the computational demands are much higher. If Maxis hadn't made the simulator more complex then we could have the large tiles that everyone would like! Agent based simulation would have been utterly impossible with 2003's computers.

My perception of complexity has always been how in depth all the aspects of the game are, not just one. But, I could be terribly wrong. Regardless, the new direction where their main focus was the glassbox as opposed to depth of tools and complete sandbox of the game was unexpected and grabbed most of us by surprise in a mainly negative way.

I do not understand how this game can be classified as anything but simplistic. The developers, the originator and every press release i have seen stated that simcity was rebooted because sc4 was too complex. i just think they may have scaled it back a bit too much.

You are definitely right, Zukunftstraume. The complexity of the tools has gone down. This will perhaps make it easier for first-time players, but for a hardcore player like the average Simtropolis user it might be disappointing. However, the simulation itself is more complex. This is a fact.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

snip

First off, I did not play the Beta Demo so I have less info but I am also not bound to the NDA.

1. Zoning: There seems to be guidelines when building roads so you can maximize efficiency for high density.

a) I certainly wish the player could control the setbacks of zones in addition to height limits.

2. That sounds like bad news. I heard that forests are a resource zone that is part of developer debug tools.

a) I certainly wish some of the developer tools could be released like a map creator.

3. See #2

4. That is annoying also see #1

5. I believe you can add modules to parks to put them far away from roads.

6. Power lines are nice visuals and they were in the trailer and they should be included in Regional space.

7. They removed the pipes and made them automatically placed under roads. I would love to see them in an underground mode for subways.

8. I hope subways and larger city tiles are added in an expansion pack.

9. There are supposedly road tunnels. Tunneling shoudl be expanded.

10. I agree, there should be eco tourism and tropical beach tourist destinations as well as agriculture.

11. Tilt shift looks annoying but it makes it easier on the eyes of some gamers with low end computers.

12. I hope that City Ordinances merely need a special module to City Hall.

13. Highways need to be improved.

14. SimCity 4 is a statistical simulator, not agent based.

--Ocram