Faith.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, I wasn't suggesting anything pejorative, but what an interesting set of responses. I was only wanting to point out the ecumenical response of the team members. However, debate away, friends.

[Meg 368]

That being said, I really care if other express their religious beliefs. As long as its on a equal footing. I don't care if you say a buddhist prayer.. but you'd better not complain when I say a Christian prayer.

Doesn't it depend on where the prayers are being said? If you want to say a prayer in your house or church, go for it. But if I stand on your front door step and decide it's a good place for a buddhist chant, you might have an issue with that. as well you should.

As the saying goes: Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one but don't wave it around in public and try to shove it down other people's throats.

[hym 358]

I think that such a saying (which I never heard till you mentioned it ) misses an important point. Like it or not, religion is a part of public life. Telling people to keep their religion to themselves isn't going to happen.

[Wiecher 192]

Pregame religious exercises.

And I say, so what? And what about the First Amendment?

I don't hear anyone on the team, including the non-Catholic coach complaining. And yet, why would this article be printed if there weren't some anti-religionists in the pile somewhere?

Everyone is entitled to his personal faith, organized or not. I think a lot of the stance taken by some outfits is just noise to get attention.

Like the bedroom, the law should stay out of people's minds. The United States of America has the G. word built in so deeply it is probably impossible to remove it entirely. If the US is not a Christian country, it needs to shake its collective head. When people of other faiths immigrate to the US, they are not constrained from practising their beliefs unless they are against the civil law (Sharia, for example).

Since most of the founding fathers were members of the Masonic Order, by the way, you can be sure they were all practising Christians belonging to a Protestant denomination. At that time Catholics were not admitted to the order.

While the U.S. was founded on judeo Christian values. I would agree that in this present day and age, we are no longer a Christian nation..

That being said, I really care if other express their religious beliefs. As long as its on a equal footing. I don't care if you say a buddhist prayer.. but you'd better not complain when I say a Christian prayer.

Many western nations only became founded on these so-called "Judeo-Christian" values after WW2. They just put the Judeo part in as a kind of feel-good thing for themselves and to pretend they were much better than the Nazis all along, even though all Western nations have a history of the persecution of Jews.

[Cefien 361]

As the saying goes: Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one but don't wave it around in public and try to shove it down other people's throats.

I think that such a saying (which I never heard till you mentioned it ) misses an important point. Like it or not, religion is a part of public life. Telling people to keep their religion to themselves isn't going to happen.

I agree with hym. That is a religion fundamental. Since the saying said religion is like a penis that cannot be shove down to other's throats. Then i just wanna say this; how do you think we got and get to know about religion today? Most of them by oral

Religion spread by oral not by spreading Bible or Koran for people to read. Once you done with oral then you can give them Bible or Koran.

One last thing, we can't stop religion to spread. Never.

[Dewm 177]

Pregame religious exercises.

And I say, so what? And what about the First Amendment?

I don't hear anyone on the team, including the non-Catholic coach complaining. And yet, why would this article be printed if there weren't some anti-religionists in the pile somewhere?

Everyone is entitled to his personal faith, organized or not. I think a lot of the stance taken by some outfits is just noise to get attention.

Like the bedroom, the law should stay out of people's minds. The United States of America has the G. word built in so deeply it is probably impossible to remove it entirely. If the US is not a Christian country, it needs to shake its collective head. When people of other faiths immigrate to the US, they are not constrained from practising their beliefs unless they are against the civil law (Sharia, for example).

Since most of the founding fathers were members of the Masonic Order, by the way, you can be sure they were all practising Christians belonging to a Protestant denomination. At that time Catholics were not admitted to the order.

While the U.S. was founded on judeo Christian values. I would agree that in this present day and age, we are no longer a Christian nation..

That being said, I really care if other express their religious beliefs. As long as its on a equal footing. I don't care if you say a buddhist prayer.. but you'd better not complain when I say a Christian prayer.

Many western nations only became founded on these so-called "Judeo-Christian" values after WW2. They just put the Judeo part in as a kind of feel-good thing for themselves and to pretend they were much better than the Nazis all along, even though all Western nations have a history of the persecution of Jews.

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true... woven into ALL of the original founding documents you can see where the Judeo Christian God is referenced and the Bible is referenced. And many of the original founding fathers where of a Christian faith.

And what history does America have of persecuting the Jews? (You can't just say Western nations, if you remember history right {which it sounds like you don't} we LEFT Europe)

(let me guess we didn't land on the moon either?)

[LexusInfernus 908]

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true... woven into ALL of the original founding documents you can see where the Judeo Christian God is referenced and the Bible is referenced. And many of the original founding fathers where of a Christian faith.

And what history does America have of persecuting the Jews? (You can't just say Western nations, if you remember history right {which it sounds like you don't} we LEFT Europe)

(let me guess we didn't land on the moon either?)

Judeo-Christian tradition? For the longest time the Christian tradition towards the Jews was to put them in Ghettos, blame them for everything that went wrong and let them do the jobs Christians weren't allowed to do.

Also, when one says 'Western nations' one generally means all countries that have adopted a liberal democratic / capitalist system. That includes Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and according to some even Japan. Yes, I know, Americans sometimes forget that the US is not the only democracy with capitalism in the world. So when someone says 'Western Nations' or 'the West' or 'Western Civilization' they generally mean more than just the US.

Anyways, while America might not have a very strong tradition of prosecuting Jews, large parts of Europe most certainly do and only after WW2 and the Holocaust did that go out of style in only some parts of Europe.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Agreed.

It wasn't only in some parochial stettles in Russia that the Jews were persecuted. This is all set up by the very much fictionalized story of the trial and execution of Christ by the Romans. Is there any evidence at all other than biblical writings that Pontius Pilate, a well trained Roman governor, ever offered the mob a choice of whom to execute? That is not in the Roman character.

And then of course, the Jews were the authors of their own misfortune with the Maccabees. This caused the diaspora, as the Romans worked their 'final solution to the Jewish problem'. Those that didn't escape were either executed by the sword or enslaved. The city was torn down 'stone by stone' to eliminate this hot bed of resistance to the Roman rule. There is a plaque in one of the monuments in Rome to the effect that it was built using the 'gold of Jerusalem'.

Even after two millennia, Judaism is still a bone of contention, and that little sliver of land at the eastern end of the Med is just a bad case of conscience on the part of the Brits. The Balfour declaration should have been archived and forgotten. Too much international angst is caused by emotional decisions in the aftermath of great catastrophes.

[Dewm 177]

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true... woven into ALL of the original founding documents you can see where the Judeo Christian God is referenced and the Bible is referenced. And many of the original founding fathers where of a Christian faith.

And what history does America have of persecuting the Jews? (You can't just say Western nations, if you remember history right {which it sounds like you don't} we LEFT Europe)

(let me guess we didn't land on the moon either?)

Judeo-Christian tradition? For the longest time the Christian tradition towards the Jews was to put them in Ghettos, blame them for everything that went wrong and let them do the jobs Christians weren't allowed to do.

Also, when one says 'Western nations' one generally means all countries that have adopted a liberal democratic / capitalist system. That includes Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and according to some even Japan. Yes, I know, Americans sometimes forget that the US is not the only democracy with capitalism in the world. So when someone says 'Western Nations' or 'the West' or 'Western Civilization' they generally mean more than just the US.

Anyways, while America might not have a very strong tradition of prosecuting Jews, large parts of Europe most certainly do and only after WW2 and the Holocaust did that go out of style in only some parts of Europe.

Which is EXACTLY why I specified that the United States hasn't persecuted Jews, We were originally talking about the founding U.S. documents and what influence faith had in them, so it holds no interest of mine what Japan has done, or any place in Europe.

Secondly I would be very interested in seeing some sort of a article (from a factual source) on Christian "tradition" here in the U.S. towards Jews, I am not 250+ years old, but for as long as I can remember the Christians here in this nation have always stood up for jews.

And last but not least: The only reason I am sticking with the U.S. and not concentrating on other nations, is because the guy I quoted "Wiecher" was stating that the MAIN reason we see Christian documents is because after WWII we were trying to "feel better then the Nazis" ...and I'm sorry that is just crazy talk.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Cool it, folks! The whole point of posting that article was the pleasant surprise that also in America there can be ecumenicism.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Which is EXACTLY why I specified that the United States hasn't persecuted Jews, We were originally talking about the founding U.S. documents and what influence faith had in them, so it holds no interest of mine what Japan has done, or any place in Europe.

Secondly I would be very interested in seeing some sort of a article (from a factual source) on Christian "tradition" here in the U.S. towards Jews, I am not 250+ years old, but for as long as I can remember the Christians here in this nation have always stood up for jews.

And last but not least: The only reason I am sticking with the U.S. and not concentrating on other nations, is because the guy I quoted "Wiecher" was stating that the MAIN reason we see Christian documents is because after WWII we were trying to "feel better then the Nazis" ...and I'm sorry that is just crazy talk.

The reason why you should not have stuck with just the US in your reply is because the guy you quoted wasn't just talking about the US, but all the other countries you have no interest in.

And what he was saying is correct. The word 'Judeo-Christian' implies a mix of or a hybrid of two traditions that of the Jews and that of the Christians. But in Europe, there was no real 'Jewish' tradition, at least, none that had a significant impact on society. Jews were a minority, in the most positive cases they where shunned and left alone, in a lot of other cases they were used as scapegoats and the target of violence. If you can speak of any tradition concerning Jews, it is an overwhelmingly negative tradition of xenophobia, ignorance, racism and violence, conducted by Christians. Not really a tradition to be proud off.

There is an overwhelmingly Christian tradition though, with the dominance of Christianity in Europe. And that also carries over to the US. The founding fathers are all Chistians, and the majority of the people were Christians. The amount of Jews living in the US at the moment the US was founded was very small indeed, and pretty much all of them came from Spain and Portugal. Not really an ethnic group that played a large role in the foundation of the US, which is further supported by the fact that Jews only got voting rights in 1790, after the US was founded and became independent from the British. So yeah, I think one might speak of a 'Christian' tradition that can be seen in the foundation of the US, but not a 'Judeo-Christian' one, simply because there are hardly any Jews present in the US at that time, and those that are present have no political power.

And it was only halfway through the 19th century that Jews began to go to the US in larger numbers, after they got prosecuted again in Europe. And no, I wasn't saying the Jews were treated badly in the US or anything. I think you're right when you say that Americans have always treated Jews fairly. At least on the whole. But in Europe? We did invent the so called 'Judeo-Christian' tradition, not even because we felt bad about the holocaust, but simply because we prefer Jews over Muslims, and rather say that we have a Judeo-Christian tradition and use that as an excuse to keep any perceived Islamic elements out of our society.

Anyways, if you disagree, and believe that the US was founded on a 'Judeo-Christian' tradition, could you please identify what part exactly is the Judeo part of the tradition and that can't clearly be found in the Christian part?

[Ceafus 88 1,794]

That being said, I really care if other express their religious beliefs. As long as its on a equal footing. I don't care if you say a buddhist prayer.. but you'd better not complain when I say a Christian prayer.

That deserves and award^^^^

I feel exactly the same, if others can express their religion freely, don't get all fussy, and offended when I express mine freely. It seems more and more people feel that Christians are enemy's to the nation, while if a Christian says anything against another religion, they get in serious trouble. The nation needs a reality check. All religions should be able to express their beliefs, as long as the other does not throw a hissy fit over it.

Yes, the country was founded by a christian people, becuase britian seemed to despise of it, and they left to get away from it, and taxes, among other things. I think taking out the countries past, foundation, everything that made it what it is today is absurd, and should not happen. I know some people will be all cranky, and say it shouldn't be there, but hey, they can get over it. I should not have to fear getting in trouble for saying God, becuase I have that right, its written down on the constitution, I have freedom of religion. Same goes for others, if they say their version of God, they have that right. Just don't go about hating on the other, and saying that it is a terrible thing that they have a belief.

[Dewm 177]

Which is EXACTLY why I specified that the United States hasn't persecuted Jews, We were originally talking about the founding U.S. documents and what influence faith had in them, so it holds no interest of mine what Japan has done, or any place in Europe.

Secondly I would be very interested in seeing some sort of a article (from a factual source) on Christian "tradition" here in the U.S. towards Jews, I am not 250+ years old, but for as long as I can remember the Christians here in this nation have always stood up for jews.

And last but not least: The only reason I am sticking with the U.S. and not concentrating on other nations, is because the guy I quoted "Wiecher" was stating that the MAIN reason we see Christian documents is because after WWII we were trying to "feel better then the Nazis" ...and I'm sorry that is just crazy talk.

The reason why you should not have stuck with just the US in your reply is because the guy you quoted wasn't just talking about the US, but all the other countries you have no interest in.

And what he was saying is correct. The word 'Judeo-Christian' implies a mix of or a hybrid of two traditions that of the Jews and that of the Christians. But in Europe, there was no real 'Jewish' tradition, at least, none that had a significant impact on society. Jews were a minority, in the most positive cases they where shunned and left alone, in a lot of other cases they were used as scapegoats and the target of violence. If you can speak of any tradition concerning Jews, it is an overwhelmingly negative tradition of xenophobia, ignorance, racism and violence, conducted by Christians. Not really a tradition to be proud off.

There is an overwhelmingly Christian tradition though, with the dominance of Christianity in Europe. And that also carries over to the US. The founding fathers are all Chistians, and the majority of the people were Christians. The amount of Jews living in the US at the moment the US was founded was very small indeed, and pretty much all of them came from Spain and Portugal. Not really an ethnic group that played a large role in the foundation of the US, which is further supported by the fact that Jews only got voting rights in 1790, after the US was founded and became independent from the British. So yeah, I think one might speak of a 'Christian' tradition that can be seen in the foundation of the US, but not a 'Judeo-Christian' one, simply because there are hardly any Jews present in the US at that time, and those that are present have no political power.

And it was only halfway through the 19th century that Jews began to go to the US in larger numbers, after they got prosecuted again in Europe. And no, I wasn't saying the Jews were treated badly in the US or anything. I think you're right when you say that Americans have always treated Jews fairly. At least on the whole. But in Europe? We did invent the so called 'Judeo-Christian' tradition, not even because we felt bad about the holocaust, but simply because we prefer Jews over Muslims, and rather say that we have a Judeo-Christian tradition and use that as an excuse to keep any perceived Islamic elements out of our society.

Anyways, if you disagree, and believe that the US was founded on a 'Judeo-Christian' tradition, could you please identify what part exactly is the Judeo part of the tradition and that can't clearly be found in the Christian part?

If you had looked back at the post he was originally quoting ME, when I was speaking PURELY about the U.S.

He was the one who tried to pull in other western nations into the discussion I was having. But thank you for your comments.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Faith is good, dogma and extremism are not.

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Yes, a man must believe in something. I believe I'll have another diet coke.