Vlasky's BATs from D to A

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Everything looks splendid so far. The only thing I'm not that sure about is those rollup doors all around. What purpose would they serve?

[Fellon63 5]

Tenant storage I would guess.

[RepublicMaster 428]

I like this building, its looking good. Can't wait to see how it progresses.  

[Vlasky 1,803]

Hi everybody. Real life threw some things on me just when I was about to make my comeback. However, I am forced to make this post and statement, due to recent findings.

 

I know most of us just skip to pictures without reading first but please, I'd like to ask you to read the statement that I'm about to make, because it is of great importance to me.

 

Back in March 2011, I was working on Manhattanville Project with SimHoTToDDy and Francis90b. While researching historic images of the area I have spotted some very interesting lamp posts from that time in New York. I've researched more and got pretty into them so I made whole bunch of them, hoping some day I will find a way to replace standard lamp posts in game with the ones I've made. I showed them to Todd, Francesco and Amthaak when I made them, but pretty much they sat on my hard drive all this time. I am about to show them to you:

 

 

Those were 3 basic models that were supposed to correspond with wealth types of lamp posts in game. Other setups were contemplated as well:

 

 

At this point I will say it again, all of these models were based on the historic lamp posts from New York.

 

Since I didn't have the skill (and I still don't) to transfer them into game they just kept laying around. That is until there came Light Replacement Mod. About a year or more ago, I asked LRM creator, mandelsoft if there is a way to get these into the game and showed him the images of the models. I also offered to finish up the models and give them to him so that he can use them in LRM (with crediting me). He has told me that he is not interested in my lamp posts and that he can help me to learn how to create my my own mod and get them into the game.

 

Today, I have found out, by looking at the image Bipin has posted, a certain model of a lamp post:

 

 

 

Than I have found out that this lamp post is a part of LRM created by mandelsoft! I confronted him in the chat and he told me that it was faster to make them by himself and that he has changed his mind about the lamp posts.

 

This is certainly the first time I am in this situation, and I felt like I had to say something about it. This is unfair and unjust stealing of my idea. I am not writing this seeking credits, as models used in LRM are not mine but his, but with circumstances I do believe that this is stealing of intellectual property, and by that I do not mean the lamp posts, but the idea of these particular types of lampposts being used for this particular purpose.

And I do find it disrespectful that I have offered my, original models, to him just to be said that they're not suitable for this case, only for them to be recreated and used in that very case. 

 

I am not seeking any credits now, but I do need this clarification to be out there.

 

Someone might think that we tend to have multiple models of the same objects so why is this such a big deal? It is because this is not the kind of thing where everybody do their Sears Tower version. It's widely known building. These particular types of lamp posts and the idea to bring them into the game wouldn't be around hadn't I made them for the game and showed them to him. So there were models, almost ready for the game, offered to the mod creator to use them, he declined by saying those types of lamp posts are no good for the game, only to go back on that, and without notifying me, to recreate them and use them. 

 

That is hypocrisy, and direct deception. Stealing if you will. 

[elavery 1,013]

Does seem a bit dodgy I have to say.

[Roger51 381]

This is certainly a tricky topic to bring out in the open, as we have no judge over SC4, it becomes a point of pride, and he said vs he said. Which can become uncontrollable and affect the community negatively, however, credit needs to be given to you that you didn't just scream it out in public without talking to mandelsoft first (as has happened many times before and lost some great people to it). I am in no way endorsing Mandelsoft's way, I think in the community spirit of the game it shouldn't have happened and proper accreditation should have been given. 

 

Love the lamp posts btw, and wish I there was more from the Manhattanville Project   Loved those buildings   

[darn42 1,268]

I doubt he did that with any intention of stealing your idea. If he did, that's unfortunate, but I generally go by the assumption that people don't purposefully insult others like that, especially not in a community as friendly as this. Personally, I wouldn't get too frustrated over this, even if it's wrong. 

 

If it helps, those are very nice looking lamps; they are perfect, in fact.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I see your point of view and I think I understand how you feel, but wouldn't a PM to Mandelsoft have been the better choice? Potentially dragging others into the affair will not help to find a solution, but it may complicate things, especially since the only two persons who know what actually happened are you and Maarten.

[Vlasky 1,803]

elavery: thank you for your support

Roger51: I did exactly that, contacted him. Thank you for your support. About Manhattanville, well, nobody said it's all over Thank you for compliments.

darn42: As I said, I have confronted him and what I stated in my previous post are his exact words. Thank you for your support. Thank you for compliments.

T Wrecks: No, the PM wouldn't have solved anything. As I have previously stated, after what I've found out, I've asked him and said that it's not fair what he have done, only to be laughed off. His statement regarding this issue are: "It was faster to make my own" ; "I went back on what I've said about your lamps". Oh and let's not forget this one " "

You should have read more attentively T, because I said that I have showed my models to quite a number of other ppl before showing them to him. They are all my 'witnesses' that what I'm saying is true. I even complained to Bipin how Maarten didn't find my lamp posts interesting enough to be included in some modd. 

I am not trying to drag others into this, but what am I supposed to do? Just be quite while my ideas are presented as someone else's? 

[Bipin 3,402]

I see your point of view and I think I understand how you feel, but wouldn't a PM to Mandelsoft have been the better choice? Potentially dragging others into the affair will not help to find a solution, but it may complicate things, especially since the only two persons who know what actually happened are you and Maarten.

 

It was actually I who had opened this can of worms...

 

You see, while posting BAT images in chat, Vlasky came to notice the discrepancy in one of my images; that a lampost I used had looked strikingly similar to Vlasky's, albeit the lampost was from Maarten's LRM. Vlasky had confronted Maarten with the issue, and I can attest to what Vlasky said as far as the basic course of events panned out. Remaining neutral to the issue, I returned to chat a short while after (I had left to get production rolling on a friend's experimental short film, so I was out for a few hours I believe) with the intent of questioning Vlasky and Maarten on the whole issue and producing a deeper understanding of what's going on.

 

Alas! Maarten was not there. Ultimately though, I was able to get Vlasky's side of the story. I can assure you that Vlasky's intentions in making the issue public were simply to raise awareness on an issue that, if as true as he claims, would be quite disconcerting. From my own analysis, this may be incorrectly masquerading in the eyes of some as an attempt at "naming and shaming", whereas in truth it is nothing of the kind. One must put themselves in Vlasky's shoes to understanding how frustrating it can be to see intellectual property stolen by a fellow community member. This is something I and many other BATers can certainly attest to.

 

While Vlasky's methods are indeed quite harsh, they are not unwarranted from what I've seen regarding his side of the story. In an effort to remain impartial to the matter, I'd be more than happy to hear Maarten's side of the story, or at the very least, I'd expect Maarten to post a rebuttal here. Right now, posting nothing is akin to saying "no comment", and we all know what that means. It would behoove you Maarten to clarify your actions, for they could be perfectly justifiable, but unfortunately and gravely misunderstood due to the unipolar information presented thus far.   

[MandelSoft 2,770]

I didn't expect Vlasky to go all out on this issue. I thought it was settled, but clearly it hasn't and I have to agree a PM would be better then just talking about it all open in public. So I already answered my side of the story on SC4D:

Well, I explained to Vlasky over at the SimTropolis chat that at the time he asked this, I wasn't revising the LRM yet. So in the intermediate time between that conversation and the creation of the actual LRM, I decided to pick that style of lamppost anyway. I created the lamp posts again from scratch, as you can see that these lamps have a bit less detail than Vlasky's ones (I mean, my models are missing those fancy curly ornaments). Also, my lamp posts are black instead of green, so in that way you can see they are really different models.

 

There are also the following reasons for it why I used my own models:

 

- At the time I created the lampposts (in April 2013) themselves, Vlasky was hardly on the chat. If he was there, I could've asked him.

- LRM models ask a bit more than just simple BATting. I need to know where the lamp is (for the flare), I need the model to be in a certain rotation and I need very specific TGI IDs, which is the most restrictive aspect of the LRM.

 

The LRM v5 USA Set has been out for exactly five months now (since April 14). Why this complaint has risen right now, is a bit oblivious to me.

 

Stealing someone's idea is quite an acquisition to me, but ithe line between stealing an idea and just take inspiration from it. One can always wander around on Streetview looking for streetlights. Does that mean that I'm stealing someone's idea? Did I stole the idea for the Highway Re-Styling mod from a development thread I saw years ago which turned out to be a hoax in the end? Did I steal some Google Earth models just because I used them as a reference model to make my more advanced building models? Did I "steal" the LRM-idea from that same person who came up with that hoax, while she never came to a release at all? Did I steal the idea of making an asphalt MHW mod? Did I steal the idea for making Euro Textures? Did I steal the idea of making signage for SimCity 4? Did I hijack Project Symphony? And if so, is that really that bad? Think about that...

 

Anyway, that's my point of view, and I think this clarifies the case a bit

 

This is actually not the first time I got "dependency" issues with the LRM: for version 2.0, Cogeo complained in a PM that I included his lightcones in my mod, which resulted in that I removed the files in question and link them as dependencies. In version 3.0, I decided to use my own lightcones so I never would've to deal with the issue again. But this issue was before I knew better about dependencies...

 

What's currently going on is from a different degree: two models showing quite some similarity. Why wouldn't that be allowed? I mean, I've seen multiple BAT copies of the WTC and the Petronas Towers over the years and that was never an issue...

 

EDIT: We solved the issue over the chat, explaining both sides of the stories to each other, and misunderstandings and mistakes were made on both sides. No hard feelings in the end, fortunately. 

 

Best,

Maarten

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Good to know that.

[RepublicMaster 428]

Good to see things sorted out. 

 

On another semi-related note. I'd love to see those lamp posts released one day as props, Vlasky.

[Vlasky 1,803]

 

 

On previous topic,

lol 

 

We must press on, and by press on I mean Hindenburg!

 

 

 

[jaredh 195]

awesome.

[Delecto 941]

great great great... mais oui Monsieur, c'est vraiment bien.