SimCity: Demographics Past & Present

[Linoa06 1,374]

Like I said, it all depends on how well they implement all the multiplayer stuff. I can live with leaderboards and resource prices being influenced by other players/cities, but I don't want the game to punish me for not playing with other people. So far I haven't seen any indication that it will, but that could change in a heartbeat.

I think SC2013 will be much closer to being an MMO rather than a social game, although it could be said that you don't really play WITH other people. Instead what happens in your city will be (indirectly) influenced by other people, so at times it may seem you're playing against them. From what I've seen I think the fears of this being akin to a Facebook city game are, at least currently, unjustified but I have to admit I remain skeptical until it's actually finalized/released.

Yes, it is much more likely SC5 will be developed and played as a MMOG rather than as a Farmville game. The "Farmville" degoratory comparisons are mostly in the fact that the cities are dumbed down and small, but I don't think it will go beyond that. I mean, SC5 obviously won't play like a Farmville game. It's not about plopping stuff and then waiting a day for things to grow. Even though there are social elements they will go in a more 24/7 style of MMO that you can play any time for any amount of time. It's rather stupid and maybe akin to doomsaying to claim SC5 is the next Farmville. SC5 will be anything but that - build cities anytime, how you wish, and despite the limitations, it's nothing about buying 5 vegetable icons to be able to build a farm with the little energy bar thingy getting down and all. I have tried SC5, and it felt like a lot of fun, even though my hands were pretty tied in more than one way and the online requirement is still dragging me down.

Also on demographics, I'm a strong gaming woman who doesn't need no.....Farmville. Never understood that.

  Edited November 3, 2012 by Linoa06  

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

I would say that I tend to lean more toward the hardcore, preferring games with deep gameplay and innumerable challenges to overcome. However, I have no problem with such hardcore gameplay occurring in a social context, so long as social play is an option rather than a mandate, and the socialization of the game does not diminish its complexity. Personally, I think it would be more interesting and entertaining to deal with challenges in a game world where I do not necessarily have absolute power. The problem begins when Maxis decides to shrink the cities into diminutive, isolated villages, and gives the player virtually no say in where he can build his city or how he is allowed to interact with the outside world.

Exactly, very well said. If there's one thing all Hardcore Mid-core even Softcore SimCity players want in common, it is The Need For Creative Control on How Cities Are Built.

Giving the players virtually no say (in map size map shape in terraform in city shape city sizes city position on map etc) is precisely what SimCity Social is about. Another evident the new SimCity is designed from the ground up for the PRO-SOCIAL, NON-HARDCORE, NON-CREATIVE type of gamers.

SimCity is not only moving from hardcore/mid-core to casual, from solo to social, but also from a classic Creative City Simulation Management to trendy Preset Town Social Strategy.

So there's no reason why typical traditional SimCity Creative God Mayors will bother with the new SimCity of a different genre, including those who believe they could live with Origin.

It remains a mystery why they include "core fans" in their tightly scripted speeches and promo videos. Perhaps they want core fans to give them blessings for turning SimCity into Something Else and selling it to Someone Else.

-------

There's a misconception that just because SC13 is online, it is therefore a "MMO". There is nothing "massive" about multi-playing 2x2 MINIATURE towns on a Cities XL size city map - even with oneself. In fact it is pathetic and tiny by today's MMO standards. But I can see Facebook's SimCity Social crowd used to such unrealistic scales may go "OMG if you go up to the regional view you can now see other people's cities it's so cool!"

Is that very "hardcore" kind of city-builder "MMO" in anyway, seriously? Nah....

Another misconception is about “hardcore” gamers, that they must be “hard”, “battle-loving”, "attention and glory seeking", “competitive”, “collaborative”, “destructive” and “always on”, “consoles-based”……ignoring the fact that there are too many hardcore PC-based, solo, always-off, non-destructive, non-domineering, peaceful, private, creative, open-ended YET equally competitive (against AI) equally cooperative (with AI) type of hardcore gamers.

EVE online is hardcore. SimCity Social crowd is simply not hardcore. They are super casual super soft super fleeting to the point they won't even pay $30 upfront to try out a game and would play a game only once a week, if they would stay on after a month.

The Sims gamers for example, is a very Hardcore involved, very CREATIVE, very SPECIFIC sort of simulation game audience, who didn’t bother with the fluffy light-weight The Sims Online or god forbid The Sims Social on FB. Just like SimCity, players can't master The Sims overnight, there's a relatively high learning curve to building the house and putting together a Sim and then managing the Sim family members like the way SimCity players managing jobs and traffic. The Sims and SimCity belongs to the CREATIVE SANDBOX game subcategory.

SimCity As We Know It definitely attracted highly CREATIVE highly SPECIFIC kind of gamers. Creative in map design, terrain shaping, city visions, mods, custom buildings, vegetations, transport add-ons, and on, and on....

Removing Traditional Creative God Mode Mayor Mode Features, newly-imposed fixed connections maps terrains town sizes positions WILL ALIENATE THE CREATIVE GAMERS.

Instead of more solo features + new social features, Maxis went with no more features + limited new social features, and ended up with an odd confusing hybrid with no hardcore city simulation and no hardcore Facebook socializing. Core fans will shun the crazy dumb-downs cut-downs and extreme loss of creative control; The Sims fans look at always-on and ignore; FPS MMO crowd shrug at light-weight competition; Facebookers look at agents and yawn and go play CityVille Tropical...

If Maxis is really ignoring the 5 million strong SC core fans and focus 100% energy of new casual audience, might as well get rid of those very involved and intimidating non-SC Social elements like info layers, modules and multi-lane avenues and instead have pre-established public buildings. Perhaps add in wars and military aspect to please the Social Hardcores.

But if Maxis think they are doing a Mid-Core treatment on SimCity with hopes to get all the cores + casuals, they need to know they are failing big. There is a HUGE difference between Middle-Core and Mediocre-Core, and right now, it is the latter...

For the new SimCity to be truly accepted by both ends of the demographics spectrum, the new Social Casual elements should be grown upon the solid foundation of Core SimCity, with all Traditional City-Creation Options Intact.

[Screwballl 196]

They are targeting the "FB gamer"... aka the ones that play free games and spend money on occasion to get something in that game... but they fail to realize that most of those people play BECASUE it is free. They do not buy $60 games in stores, they would not buy a game in the store AND pay more money for ingame stuff. So since EA is abandoning its core players and targeting a group that will not pay, they are essentially spending millions to create a game that next to no one wants, or at least so very few is willing to pay for.

[VeritaScientia 150]

They are targeting the "FB gamer"...

Except, the game was likely conceived as an online-only game well before CityVille and SimCity Social.

[Xenocity 343]

They are targeting the "FB gamer"... aka the ones that play free games and spend money on occasion to get something in that game... but they fail to realize that most of those people play BECASUE it is free. They do not buy $60 games in stores, they would not buy a game in the store AND pay more money for ingame stuff. So since EA is abandoning its core players and targeting a group that will not pay, they are essentially spending millions to create a game that next to no one wants, or at least so very few is willing to pay for.

Nothing here shows them targeting Facebook gamers with this game.

You and nearly everyone else in this thread have forgotten the history of Simcity:

Simcity:

• The lacking PC version was hailed by fans for being hardcore!
  
• The Mac version was identical and was seen as inferior
  
• The Super Nintendo version that Nintendo co-developed with Maxis:
  
  • Had more features
    
  • Had more content
    
  • Had special buildings including Fire Dept. HQ, Police HQ, Train station, Casinos, Windmills, Libraries, expo center, etc...
    
  • Had Dr. Wright advise you
    
  • Had a new theme for when a new development level was met: Village--Town--City---Metropolis--Megaopolis (500k population).
    
  • Had seasons
    
  • Had better graphics
    
  • You could see heavy traffic, trains, ships, planes
    
  • You had draw bridges that actually opened for ships
    

  [*]Funny enough Simcity hardcore fans claimed the inferior PC version was better in part because it wasn't on Nintendo.

Simcity 2000:

• Sega Saturn version ran the best and was the best.
  
  • Your city hit year 1950 and 2050 and your buildings would develop into futuristic buildings.
    
  • It had better graphics than the PC/MAC/PS1 version
    
  • It had better features, though I do hate how City Council could change the budget and laws.
    

  [*]The first PC version had a lot of trouble running in Windows.

  [*]Maxis released the special edition so Windows users could run the game fully

  [*]Mac version didn't need to be upgraded

  [*]Maxis released Gold version where you had to share and compete for resources with other cities online.

  [*]Maxis released the network version which was centered on online play

  [*]SNES version was not worth mentioning

  [*]N64 version had 3D graphics engine

  • It featured mini games
    
  • It featured a dating game
    
  • It featured many monsters
    
  • It featured monsters that could breed
    

  [*]Sadly the PC version was considered superior to hardcore fans because it was the PC version

Simcity 64 (Yes HAL/Nintendo developed it)

• Was only on the N64
  
• Was the first full 3D Simcity
  
• Had the first night mode
  
• Pedestrain level free roaming
  
• First Simcity to allow you to see full cars on the roads
  
• First Simcity to allow you to see Sims going about their business
  
• Was the first Simcity to allow you to command a vehicle
  
• The game was critically panned in the West by fans
  

Simcity 3000:

• Came out in 1999
  
• It launched at $50
  
• It had many issues that need patching
  
• The game was outdated the following year
  

Simcity 3000 Unlimited:

• Launched at $40, one year after the original
  
• It had better graphics than the original
  
• It had more buildings
  
• It had more maps
  
• It had more features
  
• It had more landmarks
  
• It had more disasters
  
• It had a create your own building mode
  

Simcity 4:

• Glitch ridden
  
• Bug ridden
  
• The game was broken
  
• Had to be patched many times
  
• Rush Hour added the rest of the content and patches
  
• Rush hour came a year later at launched for $20
  

Simcity 4 Deluxe:

• Launched a year after Rush Hour for $30
  
• It had all the patches
  
• It screwed over the original owners who paid $70 for the same stuff
  

The reason why I waited a few years to buy Simcity 4 was due to Maxis burning me with Simcity 3000U

The reason why I'll wait a year or two for the new Simcity, is so I don't get gouged on price.

If Simcity 4 Deluxe released today, the game would bomb with gamers and everyone else because it is offline focused.

Or i'll explain it this way:

In 9 days Nintendo launches Wii U with the following games:

1. New Super Mario Bros U
   
2. Nintendoland
   

Funny enough gamers and the gaming media are livid that Nintendo made these games offline focused instead of making them online centric.

These two games are seen as games for the "casual" market because they don't focus on online modes.

Hardcore gamers refuse to buy games now that lack DLC, Achievements and online centric focus.

If anything Simcity 2013 will be the best selling Simcity to date because it focuses on what real hardcore gamers want, not what dire hard Simcity fans wants (no one complaining on this board, fits the term of hardcore gamer)

You guys need to get with the times and join your other hardcore gamers in the online centric world.

Now if you want offline centric games you need to become Nintendo fans.

One last note:

Western Developers claim their market data shows that hardcore gamers are quickly moving to iOS/Andrlod for their gaming needs and prefer online centric games when playing on consoles, and PCs.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

Hardcore gamers refuse to buy games now that lack DLC, Achievements and online centric focus.

Giant assumption there.

Is that why hardcore Diablo3 fans spat venom non-stop on Metacritic about Everything That Is Wrong With Forcing Diablo3 Online - right after Diablo3 launch?

Is that why Ubisoft finally surrendered to customer boycott and ditched their always-on policy – after conducting serious lengthy research on its viability?

Is that why Ubisoft's customers complain less now, and buy more games?

Is that why trendy best-selling tablet games like Angrybird Tetris-spin-offs and Solitaire are all…well, SOLITAIRE and OFFLINE?

Is that why Maxis repeatedly use the words “core fans” and “private” and “solo mode” and “play alone” in their PR talks? Anything "online centric focus" there?

Don't believe me, look it up.

Feel free to espouse subjective opinions, but facts would be much nicer...

If anything Simcity 2013 will be the best selling Simcity to date because it focuses on what real hardcore gamers want, not what dire hard Simcity fans wants (no one complaining on this board, fits the term of hardcore gamer)

This statement alone contains three more assumptions...

Chief of which, you are insisting “online” as a prerequisite for “hardcore” gamers. Very wrong... You need to read what you posted to avoid contradicting yourself...

... There are many subtypes of hardcore gamers based on the style of game, gameplay preference, hardware platform, and other preferences.

And I agree with that game wiki in this. The Diversity of Hardcore Gamers, is exactly why professional statisticians used Solo Hardcore and Social Hardcore as gamer categories, and why I prefer discussing demographics using industry standard terms. And I certainly wouldn’t tell those Simtropolis super-core-fans with1000+ posts that they are not hardcore but mere casual SimCity dabblers, or that their views don't matter, or claim that Maxis is not listening to them. Maxis is 100% here reading actively and making that known to us for very good reasons...

Social Gaming Demise is now standard market news headline. The real game industry trend could well be Social/Online-only is a mere FAD, and a very short-lived one at that..

Just becaue Maxis decided to make a SOCIAL SimCity and advertising can’t-be-more-obvious slogans like "PLAY WITH FRIENDS!", just because they want Zynga's FB audience, doesn’t mean SC2013 will make money or even work, or even survive. They are just another game business which need every customer they can get.

But nevermind core fans or new imaginary fans - having Solo Offline Options, is nothing but a smart move for EA/Maxis. There is no reason to be gungho or monomaniacal in this business climate. I am cynical about corporate culture and myopia, but I remain hopeful about the intelligence of individuals within these organizations.

[Cob92 360]

They are targeting the "FB gamer"...

Except, the game was likely conceived as an online-only game well before CityVille and SimCity Social.

Online only isn't the main problem though. It is the oversimplification of the game and the hand-holding with pre-made, unalterable region, small cities with preset transportation networks, and a lack of options besides the paths that Maxis lays out for you. If online-only didn't compromise the positive aspects of the game it would be a net positive; unfortunately, both MC and Maxis made the mistake of thinking that putting the game online is an excuse to neglect the gameplay and put players in a straitjacket.

[VeritaScientia 150]

Hardcore gamers refuse to buy games now that lack DLC, Achievements and online centric focus.

Giant assumption there.

Is that why hardcore Diablo3 fans spat venom non-stop on Metacritic about Everything That Is Wrong With Forcing Diablo3 Online - right after Diablo3 launch?

Is that why Ubisoft finally surrendered to customer boycott and ditched their always-on policy – after conducting serious lengthy research on its viability?

Is that why Ubisoft's customers complain less now, and buy more games?

Is that why trendy best-selling tablet games like Angrybird Tetris-spin-offs and Solitaire are all…well, SOLITAIRE and OFFLINE?

Is that why Maxis repeatedly use the words “core fans” and “private” and “solo mode” and “play alone” in their PR talks? Anything "online centric focus" there?

Don't believe me, look it up.

Feel free to espouse subjective opinions, but facts would be much nicer...

If anything Simcity 2013 will be the best selling Simcity to date because it focuses on what real hardcore gamers want, not what dire hard Simcity fans wants (no one complaining on this board, fits the term of hardcore gamer)

This statement alone contains three more assumptions...

Chief of which, you are insisting “online” as a prerequisite for “hardcore” gamers. Very wrong... You need to read what you posted to avoid contradicting yourself...

... There are many subtypes of hardcore gamers based on the style of game, gameplay preference, hardware platform, and other preferences.

And I agree with that game wiki in this. The Diversity of Hardcore Gamers, is exactly why professional statisticians used Solo Hardcore and Social Hardcore as gamer categories, and why I prefer discussing demographics using industry standard terms. And I certainly wouldn’t tell those Simtropolis super-core-fans with1000+ posts that they are not hardcore but mere casual SimCity dabblers, or that their views don't matter, or claim that Maxis is not listening to them. Maxis is 100% here reading actively and making that known to us for very good reasons...

Social Gaming Demise is now standard market news headline. The real game industry trend could well be Social/Online-only is a mere FAD, and a very short-lived one at that..

Just becaue Maxis decided to make a SOCIAL SimCity and advertising can’t-be-more-obvious slogans like "PLAY WITH FRIENDS!", just because they want Zynga's FB audience, doesn’t mean SC2013 will make money or even work, or even survive. They are just another game business which need every customer they can get.

But nevermind core fans or new imaginary fans - having Solo Offline Options, is nothing but a smart move for EA/Maxis. There is no reason to be gungho or monomaniacal in this business climate. I am cynical about corporate culture and myopia, but I remain hopeful about the intelligence of individuals within these organizations.

Data based off US Government Agency studies is in blue, the conclusions I draw from that data will be in red.

Xeno said "hardcore gamer" not "hardcore fans of a certain series or franchise"

I believe the online component of SC13 is there to satisfy the casual/teen gamer which they're aiming this game towards more than in the past, and seeking to develop a similar base that they developed in 1989. Such a base would be made up of 10-20 year olds who have computer access. Such a market demographic proved faithful to the series in the past.

According to US Census Bureau data, 15% of American households had computer access in 1989, internet access was not even measured. In 1998, the number of American household had almost tripled to 42%. By 2003, almost two-thirds of American households had computers, and half of Americans had internet access. In 2010, 68% of households had computers with broadband internet.

Going off that data, the market for SC13 will be at a minimum 4x bigger than SC89, but considering the population in 2012 is 50 million higher than it was in 1989, the number of potential players is even higher than the raw percentages will have you believe.

Looking deeper at the demographic that became the faithful lifelong fans of SimCity, who when they started, they were between ten and twenty-five when SC89 came out.

US Census Bureau data states that over 130 million of the population between the ages of 3 and 34 have internet access.

Given that the stated fans from SC89 were between 10-25, I used a simple rough calculation and took about half that number, for a potential market of 64 million. Since that number does not take into account that only 68% of internet users have broadband. The final number of potential core demographic players is around 43 million. Even if as little as one-fourth of that demographic buys the game, figuring that other demographics will buy the game in greater numbers, this game will be the single best selling SimCity game of all time!

The fact that the total number of computer users in 1989 pales in comparison of just the 10-25-year-old demographic targeted for SC13 means this game has a much wider audience.

As for the oversimplification of the game, that is explained away by the wider target demographic that would be overwhelmed with too many options. In time, those same options may be added back into the mix.

[Dijego 66]

Demographics, demographics.. in what age do we live? It's the age of interactivity, it's the age of the individual. Currents trends have all been heading towards customization and giving the user more control over what he/she wants. I think this should be applied here as well, for each type of gamer there is this game should provide sufficient means to satisfy him/her. If the game is too difficult for a casual gamer then create different difficulties. They are dumbing down the entire game, instead of setting it as an option.. Well, I could list more, but my point has been made.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

Ah yes, SimCity 64, brought to you by the developer that created the Kirby games (HAL Labs), a video game series made for beginners and little children (however, there is a sizable adult Kirby fanbase (all of whom grew up from playing the Kirby games when they were younger), and yes, I am one of the adult Kirby fans).

Like Kirby, there are a very large number of SimCity fans who grew up playing SimCity (including the original 1989 version).

SimCity needs to expand its demographics, but not at the expense of loyal SimCity fans.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

I believe the online component of SC13 is there to satisfy the casual/teen gamer which they're aiming this game towards more than in the past, and seeking to develop a similar base that they developed in 1989. Such a base would be made up of 10-20 year olds who have computer access. Such a market demographic proved faithful to the series in the past.

“Believe” that as you wish...I much prefer to see the glaring evidence right in front of me: Maxis is taking SimCity from young CXL hardcore male city-builders to social casual 50+ older females who like helping their friends grow cities. Which is perfectly why...

As for the oversimplification of the game, that is explained away by the wider target demographic that would be overwhelmed with too many options.

It is indeed impossible to not notice how much cuter and prettier and SMALLER and SIMPLER and more FEMININE the whole thing is. It is even more absurd to argue against how dumbed down and stripped down and different the new game is from its predecessors indeed.

Point is though, the changes are all HIGHLY SPECIFIC, so for who EXACTLY the game is being made for?

Core fans, I included, are used to thinking "stripped down" SimCity...

But from another perspective, SC13 is an "upgraded" SimCity Social!

Why is density zoning taken out or “absent”? Correct. SimCity Social has no density zoning. No upset expected.

How about 2x2 tile towns now labelled city? SimCity Social city looks about that size. No loss there. No whining expected.

What about the terribly difficult to do thing like placing your own city connection? Correct. SimCity Social players have only known wpreset connections. They are oblivious to traditional SimCity god-like power.

Sounds just like the perfect kind of game customers.........IF they would bother paying $60 after being spoiled for years free to play all their FB city games.

But why? Why make SimCity specifically so much SIMPLER, so much more FEMININE?

As shown clearly in post #5, Social Gaming demographic officially consists of two primary groups – Hardcore (FPS MMO), and Casual (FB games primarily). Making SimCity exclusively social as in “PLAY WITH FRIENDS” instead of “GO SHOOT ALL THE OTHER GUYS” means SC13 is very very very specifically targeting the friendly soft gamers. Who are...

Correct. Facebook’s FarmVille CityVille SimCity Social gamers, with lots of FRIENDS. This group totals triple millions. If I was a game business I would run after them indeed. No controversy at all here. As elaborated super clearly in #7

Women in 60+ age group dominate Social Casual genre. So Maxis is simplifying and feminizing the new SimCity for?

Correct. Older Females.

Which means?

NOT young teens as claimed. More specifically, NO MORE youngsters as primary target, like it had been all these SimCity years. SimCity has moved on indeed to the opposite direction.

50yo+ females rule the gaming world now. Shocking isn't it?

I think there’s a bit of a denial that the new SimCity is targeting social (FB) gamers, and older women. Like..."oh no SimCity has become a MOM game now, but I’m so not like mom? So it can't be true!" To that I say….keep an open mind! Just because older females love SC13 doesn’t make it a bad game, or just because you are not older or female and YET Facebook-looking leaderboard and cutesy graphics appeal to you….so what, go for it! It is totally ok, 60 year old retired moms can be really fun and chatty too...

Point is, the only time the very spoiled social gaming audience will come play SC13 is when SC13 go...FREE TO PLAY....

The only people who will potentially pay $60 upfront for any city games, are the SimCity core fans who had been ignored for 10 years. Diablo3 core fans succumbed to paying upfront to go online after 10 years of starvation, regretted it a few days after launch and riot and wailed, but Blizzard laughed all the way to the bank all the same. Diablo3 is a profitable venture for game biz. So no surprise Maxis could be hoping SimCity core fans are as desperate or as under-informed as Diablo core fans. That’s all… I’m pragmatic so I’m not even going to call that kind of move evil, it’s just business as usual…

Thing is I am the sort who buy wanted tablets phones and softwares a few months post launch, and let others sort out the bugs and review it for me. But SC13 is not on my stuff to buy list, I’m just going to watch very far from the sideline. IMO regardless of whatever audience they are targeting, alienating core fans is a huge, huge mistake.

Core fans, 5 million strong at minimum, some claim are minority. This against SimCity Social daily active user that has dropped to 1.3 million 4 months after launch…

Verdict is not out yet anyhow. So let’s see….

[VeritaScientia 150]

Your logic has one fatal logical flaw, why would a social gamer who can play a basically free SimCIty on Facebook spend $60+ for a SimCity with no social network integration?

SimCity 2013 is free-to-play beyond the $60 that the game costs upfront, anyway.

Yes, they spent five years designing an engine to model a bottom-up simulation because it's simple....right, and the Edsel is famous for being the best selling car of all time.....

I've never been able to SHOOT ALL THE OTHER GUYS, in a SimCity....ever. Simulator games, whether they simulate flight, businesses, or cities, have long been considered a male-oriented game.

  Edited November 10, 2012 by CaptCity  

[Skyrunner27 23]

^^^Softcore gamer

You say this game is targeting a Facebook gamer because of social aspects but don't you realize that this game doesn't force you to do anything social. You can be a hermit in your own game though you are connected to the internet it doesn't force you to. One last question have you seen a energy bar, a form of gifting your friends anything,or a exclusive form of in game currency that you have to pay for.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

See my post above about why the changes in SC13 is making it more like SimCity Social... There is no "hermit" or solo mode if aspects of gameplay remains tied to other people. I don't know about energy bar gifts or game currency. These have nothing to do with who this game is being made for, anyhow...

something you'd hear in a movie with Jack Nicholson and Louise Fletcher.

Don't know who is Jack or Louise, probably old enough for SC13? This reminds me of that Maxis promo video of Jamie Lee Curtis as the star!

OMG why didn't I see that! Jamie is like a very active and spunky...what 55 year old woman? Oh dear, signs are everywhere...proving my point again Maxis is indeed running after older female demographics!

You need to slow down your reading, "shoot all the other guys" is exactly what SC13 or all the other SimCities are not, to make the point that Maxis is targeting SPECFICIALLY "soft and friendly" social gamers = older females... Ah nevermind... This is not the first time you take things out of context...

Anyways I have said enough about Older Female Are Majority of Social Gamers in post #1, 5, 7 and #42 of this thread complete with industry research and game biz news articles to illustrate why 50+ females are the rage for game companies. But if you think your boyfriend's opinion is sufficient as proof, well as you wish...

Your logic has one fatal logical flaw, why would a social gamer who can play a basically free SimCIty on Facebook spend $60+ for a SimCity with no social network integration?

Exactly. Why would mom bother indeed?

Maxis needs a Plan B.

[VeritaScientia 150]

As I have said numerous times, their Plan A is likely getting this generation of young fans who probably don't have the multi-tasking skills that were pretty much a requirement for playing SC3K and SC4. Females are a less numerous demographic historically for simulation games anyway.

Jack Nicholson and Louise Fletcher were the stars of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.....

As shown clearly in post #5, Social Gaming demographic officially consists of two primary groups – Hardcore (FPS MMO), and Casual (FB games primarily). Making SimCity exclusively social as in “PLAY WITH FRIENDS” instead of “GO SHOOT ALL THE OTHER GUYS” means SC13 is very very very specifically targeting the friendly soft gamers. Who are...

Okay, going off that logic, SimCity needs to become a FPS, alienating the entire fact that it's a simulation game.....

Finally, calling this game "simpler" and "cuter" I haven't seen anything "simplistic" or "cutesy" about this game. The game engine simulates many more aspects of a city than any other game in this franchise ever had, there are features, such as the modular service buildings that have never before been seen in this franchise, or possibly the genre. Smaller, I don't know how many times it's been said, the game is smaller because the depth of simulation that is in the game, making the tiles too large would tax the average computer of today, which maximizes the game's sales potential.

  Edited November 10, 2012 by CaptCity  

[Urban Cartographer 601]

SoftcoreGamer and PTPLauthor, this is why I identify myself as a mid-core gamer.

I am neither against SimCity expanding its demographics nor am I happy with the removal of popular features to accommodate its broadening.

SimCity, for it to survive, needs both the "Mom" demographic, as well as the "teenage boy/young man" demographic (and bonus for the other demographics as well).

Yes, the game has "cartoony" graphics, which I do not mind, as some mod can later create "realistic" building skins, as well as "cartoony" graphics being less intensive on the processor and RAM. However, it is more advanced in terms of its mechanics. I am also not happy about the forced online play of SC2013 or the removal of stuff such as large-scale terraforming, large city sizes, choosing connections between cities, and many other popular features.

Me, I am excited about SC2013, but equally skeptical about it. I may get the game, not once it comes out, but a few years after when some popular features are re-implemented, may it be in the form of an expansion, free patches, and/or worthwhile DLC.

[Dijego 66]

I just don't understand how Maxis can create such a negative upset without feeling the least of guilt. They must know they are abandoning their loyal fanbase. I would consider a loyal fanbase an honor. I mean they've got people defending the current state of the game even when they are not even close to the demographic Maxis is aiming to sell to. I just don't understand why they are abandoning their future core audience/buyers.

If this game is a failure, it will hurt EA and Maxis big time in their reputation I would say. Meaning that they will lose a lot of their loyal fanbase. This makes me wonder if Maxis and EA are expecting their downfall and trying to get one more round of money out of their soon to be ex-fans?

I've never played Simcity Social and never will, but the comparisons made in an earlier post by SoftcoreGamer are frightening..

But the worst thing to me is that they are almost concealing their intentions, they should openly explain their changes rather than stating them. Hardly anything has been explained properly and I need to derive their reasons from multiple theories on fora like these. I feel like they think they stand above us, I mean if you are going to turn your back on your friends (fans) at least explain why.

I am really curious whether they can make this game interesting for the SC4RH fan for longer than a week.

[Skyrunner27 23]

I just don't understand how Maxis can create such a negative upset without feeling the least of guilt.

I think they do feel guilt have you ever listened to the answers from QA they seem disheartened whenever they answer a question about subway, terraforming, and highways.

I've never played Simcity Social and never will, but the comparisons made in an earlier post by SoftcoreGamer are frightening..

I did play and trust me Simcity 2013 is nothing like Simcity Social. Saying that they are alike is saying Doctor Who is like Star Wars because they are Sci-fy.

See my post above about why the changes in SC13 is making it more like SimCity Social... There is no "hermit" or solo mode if aspects of gameplay remains tied to other people. I don't know about energy bar gifts or game currency. These have nothing to do with who this game is being made for, anyhow...

This does have to do with the targeted age group, at least with your assumption that Simcity is a advanced Social game. Most social games market the fact that you can gift your friends to help them. Simcity 2013 is your can help your friends by focusing a city around coal and setting up a trade deal between both cities AKA not gifting them.

[Sebseb 9]

I feel like they think they stand above us, I mean if you are going to turn your back on your friends (fans) at least explain why.

Here's a theory. Facebook and Zynga have introduced the idea of playing games to hundreds of millions of people who would never have touched a game otherwise. These people have now started to realize that Zynga games are not really games (see Zynga stock price and player numbers) and they are looking for something new and better. And EA tries to provide this new experience by creating a game that is somewhere between FB games and oldschool games. Financially it makes perfect sense to cater to the new FB crowd instead of the old fans. The old fans are a minority and they are very difficult to please, as we can see in this forum

[BravoGreenONE 120]

The casual gaming moms don't buy traditional full priced games. The average mom now has to work. Henceforth gaming that most moms do is mobile and on the go. The average household income is about 50k with multiple people working. Not a lot of extra spending cash for the moms as by definition dependents are involved. Certainly not for $60 and add on packs. If there is money to be squeezed from the moms, I would wager that the Sims is a much more appealing option.

This is a game for a targeted following. Lets be realistic. You can sum up the total PC crowd in three categories. You have those who have no interest in citybuilders, then you have those of us who are highly interested, and finally those in the middle who range from the curious to the somewhat interested.

Well what is the recipe for success? This is not hard to answer. Who is following the development as of right now? Its is the highly interested with a few of the somewhat interested. What we say to our fellow friends really matters. We will either generate the interest or we will not. That is critical because the city building titles appeal to the more discerning customer. Discerning customers by definition are more careful and particular. Neither EA, Maxis, nor anyone else can successfully push a product the fanbase rejects.

Now if a company makes a product the following loves or can at least work with, then what you have is free marketing as we will certainly tell our PC friends of our excitement. Never underestimate. Word of mouth.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

-double post accident-

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

Well put... Neither EA, Maxis, nor anyone else can successfully push a product the fanbase rejects, indeed.

Also, one of the most nonsensical myth being carelessly thrown about is “SimCity core fans are a minority”. A minority in what? SimCity is the most successful title in its genre City Simulation and Management. No sane minds would call a game that sold more than 30 MILLION lifetime copies a “minority” – not even in the ENTIRE Simulation genre.

On the other hand, SC13 becoming a minority in Zynga's Social Casual Games territory, sure. Simcity Social fans ARE already a minority among their peers! Signs of things to come?

Discounting the worth of SimCity core fans with baseless projections presented as facts maybe a new fashion trend. I prefer to stick to facts and PURE NUMBERS.

That is why I’ve looked hard and finally uncovered……………….SC4’s SURPRISINGLY HUGE sales number! Right from the horse’s mouth too!

So here it is….

30+ million = Total SimCity Sold by 2012

1.2 million = SimCity Original/ Classic

3.4 million = SimCity 2000

4.6 million = SimCity 3000

20+ million = SimCity 4

20 MILLION! OMG, my guestimate of SimCity core fans total in my first few posts on this forum was actually correct!

Congratulations and Kudos to every modders and BATters and Simtropolis owner and administrators and Japan Mod sites and worldwide SC4 paying customers. Now you know how much you have helped Maxis generate sales.

Now I know How Much Core Fans Are Worth.

From previous 4,600,000 copies, a sure and steady 10 year boost to 20,000,000 copies. Multiply by $$? Wow….amazing… Now I know WHY Maxis kept saying THEY WANT CORE FANS!

Some said Maxis is being arrogant or over-confident. Probably. Some claimed Maxis “felt” guilt for failing to meet core fans expectations, I reckon if there’s any emotion involved it’s more likely sheepishness than remorse. But I’m a seasoned investor and am less sentimental about these things - I don’t expect any apology if Maxis need to chart new path; businesses have every right to chase after PERCEIVED larger customer base.

I’m just saying…

• Maxis is not stupid and will not throw away 21 million customers for untested market.
  

• Maxis knew their loyal fan base wanted a SC5, basically a better SC4 in 3D with improved simulation.
  

• Maxis did not lie to core fans that this reboot will be a different genre for a different kind of target audience. They obfuscated, misled here and there, drop the “Casualizing bombs” one at a time, yes. But lie about a Social Casual SimCity2013, they didn’t.
  

• Maxis didn’t mean to alienate/abandon core fans at all - even with all the new changes. Maxis could just be taking a Middle of the Road approach hoping to capture both sides of the Great Demographics Divide, but very possibly winning NEITHER
  

• Maxis should know the market’s reaction by now, they are still listening and do not stifle ground-level feedback including the negative ones even on their own forums.
  

• Maxis still have time to adjust and ensure they capture as many from the 20 million core customer base as possible
  

For me, it is good to know SC4 has sold at minimum 20 million copies. It makes me feel damn proud as one of the SimCity Core Fans.

More importantly, compared to SimCity Social’s still-shrinking1.3 million regular players who didn’t even pay….. SimCity Core Fans are worth at least 20m x $60 = $1.2 BILLION.

$1.2 BILLION, before DLCs and expansion packs, before new frontier China. I mean…. Wow…

Clear Verdict: SimCity Core fans are NOT a “minority”, but a Very Sexy $Billion Target Audience to Any Game Companies with Basic Business Intelligence.

EA/Maxis have been spectacularly wrong before, TSO captured 1% projection, SimCity3000 near disaster for example. The game as is, I agree with Screwball that they will sell very slow and below projected number; I estimate their dev cost around 30 to 40 mil, and sales around 2 mil units first year.

I still believe there are intelligent ones in Maxis who will save this Solid Sales Record Game Title from corporate myopia, for as I mentioned earlier Maxis obviously understand Core Fans:

“Now, for our core fans of Simcity, we’ve got something for you too…”

“We’re still targeting our core audience…”

“We still have that sandbox play…”

“…where you are the god of your own Simcity, the mayor of your own SimCity…”

“You control, you decide…build your cities anyway you like…”

It gives me confidence to know that Maxis know exactly what Core Fans wanted - a typical SimCity with Solo play, Sandbox Play, God Mode, Mayor Mode, God-like Control and Open-Ended Game Goals.

Time to make these promises real for the 20 million core fans?

[T Wrecks 10,210]

If you have something "straight from the horse's mouth", it would help if you provided the horse, i.e. the source of your information. A simple link would suffice. Otherwise it's not "straight from the horse's mouth", but straight from a guy who claims that, but whose assertions I cannot check without researching. And since you are the person who introduces the argument, it ought to be your job to prove it.

As for your $1.2 bn, don't make it sound as if it was profit. It is turnover, and we don't know the profit margin. Besides, many SC4 copies were sold for a price far below the $60 you cite - I dunno about other countries, but where I live, SC4(Deluxe) has been retailing for ~€10-15 for many years now.

Concerning the number of copies sold, don't forget that SC4 came out three years after SC3K; so it is quite logical that SC3K sales were probably less than spectacular when the successor came out - most people will have upgraded or bought the latest version by the time SC4 came out, and SC3K sales will have dropped off since that moment.

SC4, however, has had 9 years to sell (and no real successor), three times the time of SC3K. This means that the sales figures per year look quite a bit less over the top. And if we suppose that the computer games market as a whole has also grown compared to the time around the release date of SC3K, the sales figures per year in relative terms (market share) may not have grown that much. Add to this the gradual price decrease I outlined above, and SC4 may look a bit less like EA's strong cash cow. I suppose it contributes a small amount of revenue over an extended time, but I suspect that the SimCity franchise meanwhile plays a bigger role in EA's history and image than it does in its balance sheet.

No matter what, the 20 million copies are as impressive as the unbroken popularity of SC4, no doubt about that. I just had the impression you were overstressing some figures and/or presenting them in a very one-sided way, much like a marketing department would do (although the accounting department could probably tell you a more differentiated story)...

[Trioxis 32]

The giant assumption you're making here is that those (assumed, I'll talk about this later) 20+ million people automatically became core fans after purchase. What's this based on and how do you define 'core fans'? Same goes for that $1.2 Billion figure, you're assuming that every single sale was and is going to be at full price. Not everyone is going/willing to shell out $60 for a game. I know I usually don't.

The increase in sales figures is harder to pin down because there are several variables and not a lot of information. Several factors that may have influenced the sales could be an increase in the overall gaming population or an increased interest in SC4 due to the success of The Sims. However, the sales figures of SC4 are largely irrelevant because that was almost a decade ago and the market has changed since then. Besides that, I haven't been able to confirm the 20+ million sales you claim. The only sales figure I could find was on this wikipedia page. If correct, the sales figures for SC4 would be closer to 2 million rather than 20+ million, but doesn't include the expansion and steam sales. I'm not sure about the accuracy of this page, but again, if correct it would appear that the entire SimCity franchise hasn't even sold 20 million copies total, thus making your claimed 20+ million sold copies more unlikely.

You claim to prefer facts and numbers, yet your post seems to contain a number of assumptions which seem to be based on nothing but personal opinion and a sales figure we can't verify. I would kindly ask you to provide us with a source for your SC4 sales figure.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

T Wrecks, on 12 November 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

If you have something "straight from the horse's mouth", it would help if you provided the horse, i.e. the source of your information.

...

As for your $1.2 bn, don't make it sound as if it was profit. It is turnover, and we don't know the profit margin. Besides, many SC4 copies were sold for a price far below the $60 you cite - I dunno about other countries, but where I live, SC4(Deluxe) has been retailing for ~€10-15 for many years now.

...

SC4, however, has had 9 years to sell (and no real successor), three times the time of SC3K.

...

No matter what, the 20 million copies are as impressive as the unbroken popularity of SC4, no doubt about that. I just had the impression you were overstressing some figures and/or presenting them in a very one-sided way, much like a marketing department would do (although the accounting department could probably tell you a more differentiated story)...

If anything my tendency is to conservatively under-estimate SimCity sales numbers. I kept core fans total to the available 5 million much-reported SC3000 number, until I found solid stats stated below...

I actually wanted to provide the horse but forgot - my habit is evidently posting links and backups unlike some here who just present super-subjective personal opinions as facts in armchair opponent manners.

SC3K is reported to be 5mil so probably continued to sell after SC4 launch, which could be a later sum like 4.8K rounded.

The $1.2 Billion turnover is just for starters, sure, before tax too of course, but nevertheless impressive and yummy enough to inspire the making of CXLs and CityVille. I estimate SC13 dev cost at around 40 mil (Maxis probably laugh because it is 60mil onwards nowadays), not including marketing and advertising yet. I was being generous with the 2 mil first year sales btw...

I’m actually surprised by my earlier 20 million guestimate that turned out to match at first…then again I did factor in worldwide sales. Must be those Japanese SC4 sales are finally accounted for just recently?

Anyway here’s plenty sources for SimCity Lifetime Sales at 30 mil.

Here’s (PDF) SC original, SC2000, SC3000 sales, official source , and a very interesting article indeed. The math is easy. So yes, 20 million.

---------

Moving on... there’s actually a lot of interesting stuff in the above Maxis SimCity Presentation which covered pre-SC4 SimCity - it basically spelled out Which Genre SimCity belongs to and Which Demographics SimCity targets ---- all in Maxis’s own words.

Some relevant points and snippets:

Maxis defines the typical SimCity audience as “hard core”. Specifically they said: Primary Target: SimCity Fans, hard core gamers.

“Hard core appeal” was also mentioned twice.

So to those who insist "online means hardcore offline means casual", once and for all, officially, SimCity Core Fans Are Hardcore Gamers of the SIM genre.

In that presentation, Maxis also attributed SimCity’s financial and popularity success to “Open model garnered hard core appeal”.

Yet now they are making a SimCity with “Predetermined model garnered casual appeal”... or less formally “Uptight model garnered zzzz appeal”...

Maxis seems to have turned their back on their own “SimCity Description”:

– The first of a new type of entertainment software now known as “God” games.

– A system simulation that provides the player with a set of rules and tools to create and control an urban environment

– A software toy, a sandbox

Now it is a Mortal game subjected to an invisible punitive game god’s disaster attacks. Free-form Creative Control now reduced to about 2% of its former prowess, and Sandbox, is a potential not even distantly promised as an expansion.

Maxis turning their back on SimCity values is even truer on the macro genre level… Maxis said

• SIM brand values

– Open Ended/Blank Canvas

– Creative/Thinking

– Challenging/Building

• Open Model – customization

Amazing isn't it. These are the Maxis Defined SimCity Core Values That Will No Longer Exist in the upcoming SimCity.

No more SIM brand values, only Closed Ended GamePlay and Static Preset Pre-formed Stuck-position Canvas Broken into a few 2x2 Sub-Canvases. ANTI-customization ANTI-creative freedom as the new default...

As elaborated in posts above, SIM genre fans would freak or flee, but SimCity Social audience will not mind nor are they aware of such Core Simcity Values. Who else is Maxis TAILORING the new genre SimCity for anyway? WoW crowd? CoD? Angry Birds?

Clear Verdict: Maxis is pushing SimCity into a DIFFERENT GENRE making a radically different game. Calling it SimCity is but to capitalize on the success of the SIM brand, hoping SimCity core fans will eventually softened and casualized into Rent-a-Sub-Canvas.

Reality is… Brand name recognition can only go so far. SimCity Social is a prime example on how flat (and how fast) that short-term strategy could fall.

Without SIM brand values, it logically means, no SIM brand core audience. With no SimCity core values? Right. One highly specific genre audience cannot be so frivolously converted to an equally specific opposite type genre audience.

As a hybrid SC TS core fans it is pretty obvious to me this is a SimTown Puzzle Online, and that Maxis is trying to "unite" both core groups - SC core fans are asked to scale down, TS audience are expected to scale up. Trying, is the operative word.

SIM brand audience totals…let’s see, 20 million SC, (appx)15 million TS3, that’s 35 million SIM core fans to throw away, or to get really rich from...

Maxis probably need more than just a Plan B for SimCity core fans. If they want The Sims fans too they need a Plan C. With all Maxis-defined SIM game core values intact, of course.

[Trioxis 32]

The first link you provided returns me to the main google page, no search results. If I manually search for 'simcity 4 30 million copies' the results show me that this number is for the entire franchise, this includes console and handheld sales. So I'm standing by my own search results showing that SC4 hasn't sold anywhere near 20+ million copies as per my earlier post.

[Xenocity 343]

First off Zygna is bleeding money, laying off people, and canceling games.

Secondly Simcity 4 breaks down like this:

• Simcity 4 Original: sold ~3M fan/gamers sales
  
• Simcity 4 Deluxe: sold ~4M to fans/gamers/casuals sales
  
• Simcity Box: sold a few hundred thousand to casuals
  
• Simcity 4 Deluxe Digital version: a few thousand to casuals (I mean no fans other than me would dare to buy it from a causal shop like Steam)
  

*Gamers are neither hardcore and casual, they play anything/everything

NO SIMCITY GAME HAS EVER BEEN CONSIDERED HARCORE IN THE WEST!

Simcity was originally the nerdy game, then became the kiddy game with 3000, then it became casual with 4 due to the controlling of Sims.

Simcity through Simcity 4 lacks the basic hardcore features.

Simcity 2013 is in the process of implementing those hardcore features.

Simcity 2013 maybe the very first hardcore Simcity, worse comes to worse it winds up being the next Cities XL 2011.

Thirdly - Zygna and Facebook didn't start or trigger casual gaming, Nintendo did with the NES in 1985!

Fourthly this thread needs to be locked!

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

A made-up point won’t suddenly become real by repeating it. A discussion won’t suddenly lose relevance just because your opinion is proven wrong. Please be reasonable and read the very real PDF I posted above, to find Maxis's Lucy Bradshaw presenting SimCity players as hardcore, and the game itself as hardcore. I don't know why you don't read the hard evidence or keep contradicting Maxis's own words.

SimCity is in the process of being stripped off hardcore features and transformed into a friendly softie city SIM. If Maxis’s own words in 2002 isn’t evident enough, please read this a 2012 Maxis interview on PCworld, which clearly describing SimCity core player as hardcore, Maxis's new “mainstream” and "everyday" audience as obviously a DIFFERENT type of players who are not hardcore like core players.

How have you designed this game for the core player, but opened it up for the more mainstream player?

JH: The data layer really helps make that data more accessible so for those everyday players, they’ll be able to look at that information and understand what is happening. But for the hardcore player, they’re going to really be able to learn how GlassBox is working and learn how to work with that best.

So FACTS - SimCity is a HARDCORE City Sim, SimCity core fans are HARDCORE players. New changes, new audience, NO.

I rest my case with this here....

-----

Trioxis - looks like you have confused SC4 sales and SimCity LIFETIME sales. Lifetime 30 million minus PDF-SCs 9+ million = SC4 20 million. The now-fixed Google link was to search for “SimCity sold 30 million” and will produce many valid results so pick any one source you trust, but definitely avoid the Wikis you quoted. Wikis are good for general overviews, but for specific stats and facts industry publication with official Maxis endorsement should be referred to than often dubious Wiki stats, common sense stuff really. The PCworld Maxis interview article linked above said clearly -

“The SimCity franchise has sold over 30 million copies worldwide.”

So there you go. It really doesn’t matter if the 30 million Lifetime Sales included console and whatnot – the new reboot is 100% PC with no plan for others has got to be based on Maxis's demographics logic. Even with SimTown SimsVille even non-Maxis SimCity Societies included in the total 30 million sales, still won’t shake that SC4 sold 20 million figure.

I rest my case with this one too.

------

Understandably, the 20 million SC4 sales figure could be quite surprising...but to me it is only positive. Definitely make SimCity Core Fans a very attractive group with huge bargaining power...

But which groups made up these 20 millions SC4 buyers, other than those 75% males 25% female hardcore players we are familiar with? SC13's promos give some clues...

Looking at the “Play With Friends!” SimCity World video featured on the above PCworld interview, I wouldn’t be surprised Japan alone contributed above 5 million copies to SC4 sales... I read on Simtropolis some time back (when some members discovered Japanese mod site) that SC4 remained No.1 selling game in Japan for years? Someone who knows please verify…

This could explain why Maxis is making SimCity soft and friendly for the majority Female and Casual players currently playing Facebook city games, and also casting a Mizuki Nakamura as the star among all others in the trailer...

Will the Japanese SimCity core fans or the still very active and growing Chinese CXL core fans budge with the new kind of always-on Social Casual SimCity?

I strongly doubt it, from what I observed the Japanese city-building fans are mod download freaks just like us, and will expect large maps (LA seriously sprawls but Tokyo's sprawl is even more mind-boggling) Chinese city-builder gamers particular love building gigantic cities.

[Trioxis 32]

You forget the other SimCity games they've sold which are also part of the franchise. I could put a list down of all the games that are part of the SC franchise, but I think you know as well as I do what those are. And you also have to consider the fact that an X amount of sold copies does not translate into the same amount of unique buyers. If 3 million people buy SC4 vanilla and 3 million more buy Rush Hour, that doesn't translate into 6 million people because SC4 is required for installation. This will translate into 6 million sold copies but only 3 million unique buyers. And how many of the people who bought and played SC2000 and SC3000 bought SC4? Or how many people that bought vanilla SC4 skipped Rush Hour and bought SC4 Deluxe? In any case, even IF SC4 sold a total of 20 million copies, and that's highly unlikely going by the numbers, those sales are not automatically 20 million core fans due to the reasons I've mentioned.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

I have supported my assertions with enough facts and official sources and links. So far 20 million is the best SC4 number derived Maxis source and PCworld source.

I am very curious how many copies SimTown has sold, and to who, indeed.