SimCity: Demographics Past & Present

[Trioxis 32]

I have posted links to sources which contradict your 20+ million sales figure for SC4, go read my other posts. The sources that you've used have not claimed in any way or form that SC4 has sold 20 million units or more. The only thing that's been claimed is that the SimCity franchise has sold a total of 30+ million copies. Going by the PDF, which I've seen and read before, the total combined sales of the very first SimCity through SC3000 is around 10 million. In order for SC4 to have made a total of 20+ million sales, the other games in the franchise should have had negligible or no sales at all. You are willfully ignoring those other games in the franchise (SimCity DS, SimCity Societies, and others) to make your prediction fit.

Here's a list of games in the SimCity franchise (not including spin-offs):

2 Personal computer versions

2.1 SimCity

2.2 SimCity 2000

2.3 SimCity 3000

2.4 SimCity 4

2.5 SimCity Societies

2.6 SimCity (2013)

3 Console versions

3.1 SimCity SNES

3.2 SimCity 64

3.3 SimCity Creator

4 Portable and online versions

4.1 SimCity DS

4.2 SimCity DS 2

4.3 SimCity iPhone

4.4 SimCity Deluxe and SimCity Deluxe HD

4.4.1 SimCity Deluxe for the Blackberry Playbook

4.5 SimCity Classic

You can find the list on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimCity_series

You accuse me of not supplying any numbers or facts while I have done so in another post. You on the other hand have only managed to produce a PDF with the date of 2002, but not actual documents or sites that state SC4 has sold anywhere near the numbers you suggest. You've made a claim and have so far failed to produce any factual numbers for the sales of SC4. I, on the other hand, have tried my best to find sources for your claims. The only sources I've found (here and here) suggest that your claim is incorrect.

However, I'll do some further research. This article dating from 2007 talks about 18+ million sales for the entire franchise. That would mean that SC4 + Rush Hour + Deluxe would have sold around 8 million copies up to that point. From 2007 onwards there have been more games made in the SimCity franchise like SimCity Societies (late 2007), SimCity DS (early 2007) SimCity Creator (2008 - Wii game), SimCity DS 2/Creator (2008 - Nintendo DS game). There are even versions for the iPhone and Android devices (SimCity iPhone, SimCity Deluxe and Deluxe HD). Just because these games weren't developed by Maxis doesn't exclude them from the SimCity franchise, that would be like saying Halo 4 isn't part of the Halo franchise because it wasn't developed by Bungie. It's fairly hard, even close to impossible, to find complete sales figures for any of these games. I've seen numbers of around 0.18M for SimCity DS 2/Creator in Japan alone.

The figure of 30+ million sales seems to come back frequently in announcements for SC2013 so there is enough reason to believe that's an accurate figure, even though there is no data to back that up. Without sufficient data it's impossible to make an accurate statement about the sales figures of any of the games other than the first 3 SimCity games if that PDF is accurate. What you're doing is just going 30 million - 10 million = SC4 total sales.

Again, you claim something without having the necessary facts to back it up. And no, you can't just say because the first 3 games sold 10 million units and the franchise in total 30 million or more that the remainder HAS to be attributed to SC4 without even considering the other games. If you claim something you should be prepared to back it up with facts, not assumptions.

You can't just dismiss criticism by saying that the burden of proof lies with the other party or ignoring what has been said earlier. As I've said before, I have already provided data in another post. You accuse me of being an armchair opponent yet I'm the only one who's doing some effort trying to uncover the facts instead of making baseless assumptions. So far you've accused people of being lazy, armchair opponents and not providing proof or making made-up points yet what you're doing is exactly that; Making made-up points without providing facts to back that up. Now if you'd actually be able to get undeniable proof, like a statement by EA or Maxis, about the sales figures then I would happily concede the point to you. Until then...

[MegaCitySim 68]

To be honest I find it kinda strange this is the only community I've been to with some 'core fans' who seem to underestimate themselves and think Maxis is abandoning them, or a game company that seems to undervalue its base. Most core fans from other games are like, know their worth? I guess I'm not a pure Maxis kind of sim customer (got many other sim games esp transport sims) but I have spore the sims and of cos simcities. But even I can see how valuable this amazing site/forum kind community is as a public relation thing or a market, so yeah I agree Simcity core fans have a lot of bargaining power than most seem to believe..

There's enough evidence for me I can accept the 20 million core fans estimate, which is not that big a deal in the facebook game world, but is certainly attractive compared to most best selling PC game titles. I agree it is just a business they won't discard core fans.

I think they are like trying to get both audience in the same family, but I remember reading somewhere the tried it without success... One is like sim family and household, the other sim a whole economy traffic and giant map. So different..

I kinda see Maxis 2 major sim games as two very different siblings of the same Maxis family, and Maxis is trying to make them move from their own rooms into the same room sc13. One likes blue the other likes pink. Maxis made a purple room with shiny toys and they both refuse to move room. Something like that.

Simsville was supposed to make The Sims fans go play outside in the big world, but was it like failed or cancelled?

[T Wrecks 10,210]

I just want to remind Maxis, if The Sims fans were to bother at all, there are two things they will not compromise on - customization, and offline solo.

Please don't let this become another SimsVille scrap, The Sims Online flop, or a premature 3D SimCity3000.

Why don't you simply do so in a mail to Maxis, or by any other means?

I mean, if this is it what matters to you all the time, why do you engage in lengthy, nitty-gritty discussions with other forum users who have nothing to do with the development of the game, and all that on the basis of rather vague, fuzzy, and debatable definitions of what a "casual" gamer, a "hardcore" gamer and whatever type of gamer is, as well as on alleged overall sales figures from various sources that are NOT official Maxis/EA business documents or verified in any way, and whose scope and extent (which games on which platforms are included, which ones aren't?) can only be guessed because there are no exact itemized figures straight from a 100% reliable source that you can really judge because you know how the data was compiled?

I can't help it, but to me all this endless back and forth doesn't look like an appeal to Maxis not to forget their fan base (such comments have been written practically since the inauguration of the first official SC2013 thread). It rather looks to me like a personal crusade to prove that you are right and others are wrong.

[Trioxis 32]

It rather looks to me like a personal crusade to prove that you are right and others are wrong.

I have this feeling as well.

I've never stated the numbers given on any of the wiki sites are 100% accurate. Also, you might want to note that the wikipedia page is about PC GAMES and the other page is about FRANCHISES, I believe there's also a wikipedia page talking about franchises which should give you the same numbers. In any case, so far I haven't seen any proof that your claim is based on anything but assumptions but I'm glad you're at least taking the other games into consideration now. Agreed, even IF the other games sold for a combined total of 5 million copies that still leaves a good 15 million sold copies for SC4, which still is a lot. But like I've said before, the sales figure does not equal the exact amount of unique buyers. You have to take into account people who bought SC4 + Rush Hour or SC4 + deluxe. And then I haven't even started on the percentage of buyers who are still playing SC4 today and might be considered core fans of the series, which could be anywhere from 1 to 100 percent (both equally unlikely).

So if we were to continue the 'guesstimate' approach you're using we could be looking at the following:

15 million sold copies of SC4 could perhaps translate into 10 million unique buyers taking into account people who own multiple versions of SC4. Of those 10 million there could reasonably be 30% still actively playing the game with about half of those actually being core fans, which comes down to 1.5 million people (30% of 10 million being 3 million, half of 3 million being 1.5 million). Still a respectable number of people, but not close to 20 million core fans and the wishful $1.2 billion potential worth I've seen in a post.

Do note that these numbers and percentages are completely made up, with the 15 million sold copies of SC4 being the only one that could be reasonably accurate given what we know of the sales figures. I've just used this as an example to demonstrate that it's far from a simple matter. Also you might want to read up on Occam's Razor, it's not always the simplest theory that is the most accurate.

I have the feeling that this debate will go on until the actual sales figures are known. I would suggest leaving the discussion about sales figures and potential number of core fans be as this thread is actually about the demographics.

[Hamish 1,370]

Let's keep the discussion about the topic at hand, rather than about each other.

[Von Dion 3]

The OP's subtle sexism is disappointing. So, you suppose this game is dumbed down because its...supposed to appeal to moms instead of young males? Hmm. I wonder what might be your age and gender?

And once again I have to wonder what the hell games so-called hardcore fans have played. SimCity 4 is the only game in the franchise that's particularly cold. All of the other games relied on very colorful, "cutesy" graphics and were full of cheap jokes and hilarious puns. I really don't understand the insistance among some fans that the SimCity franchise is this sort of cold, staistical, hardcore series. That's true of SimCity 4 and SimCity 4 alone.

I think it's clear who this game is meant to target - just about everyone. EA wants this game to have a very broad base, just like The Sims. That means a friendly art style, an intuitive interface and social connectivity, which is what we're seeing.

[Trioxis 32]

I think it's clear who this game is meant to target - just about everyone. EA wants this game to have a very broad base, just like The Sims. That means a friendly art style, an intuitive interface and social connectivity, which is what we're seeing.

I think I would have to agree with you. It's clear that SC2013 isn't aimed at a particular demographic, although perhaps they're leaving out the so called core fans with some of the missing features. As a casual gamer I couldn't really care less about whether subways are in the game or not. I think the graphical style is nice and fresh and I sincerely hope the UI will be easy to work with. I do not know if more casual gamers feel like I do, but I have to wonder if the average gamer really cares about the supposed missing features and limited map sizes.

So far it seems that most of the criticism is coming from the core fan camp and yes, maybe they have a point about the new game being limited. But core fans aren't Maxis' or EA's most important demographic/target audience for this game, in fact they are more like the vocal minority. I just feel like the core fans won't be satisfied until they're getting a SC4.5.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

CityVille 2 looks like it will take away some potential "casual gamers" from SimCity 2013. Why pay $80, when you can get something highly similar for free? No copyright infringement for sure but it is 3D, has a chat (though facebook itself has chat), all individual cars are there for a reason, and other stuff. It also has land expansions.

--Ocram

[whitesox130 50]

Clearly the core fans here are disappointed with the model that Maxis is presenting for the new SimCity. It seems a foregone conclusion that most of us here will continue playing SimCity 4 throughout the lifespan of the new SimCity. I feel that Maxis should realize this and try to resurrect their online community for this game. But why can't they at least give us an offline option? Not everyone has the Internet, and many busy people probably play SimCity on their laptops when they are waiting for flights at airports or aboard long flights. Internet is not always an option here.

[BravoGreenONE 120]

Does it matter whether simcity 4 sold 10 million or 20 million copies? Or whether it has 3 million or 5 million barcode fans? Not really.

Point is the simcity genre targets the taste of a specific group of individuals. The game by design has traditioally attracted those who spend who are willing to spend a good amount of THOUGHTFUL time shaping a city. This game is not for those who do not enjoy open ended games. And that doesnt even go into the economic preferences and ability of the targeted audience receding to the hardware and the upfront software investments required.

And its not a matter of sexism. The hard reality is the average family is no better off today than it was yesterday. Single moms are the norm. As a whole they don't have the time or the extra cash that the traditional simcity fanbase has had. That's just the reality. And if this game flops, then this thread should be forwarded to EA's major shareholders. Maybe then they'd replace the smug jerks they call leaders for people who could discern a head from a tail-end (to put it mildly). The demand is there for this game. But it is not located in an isle sandwitched between the huggiest pullups and the fifty shades or gray.

[Xenocity 343]

Today the official report is out regarding gaming revenue and the users.

It has finally been confirmed that "casuals" only make up 10% or $5 Billion of the industry's revenue.

That means non "casuals" make up 90% or $45 Billion of the industry.

So what does this mean to you?

Does this kill the "hardcore" vs "casual" debate for Simcity?

You can read the report at the link!

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Casual gamers, according to that report, are usually unwilling to pay more than $20 on a game up front. I highly doubt SimCity 2013 wants to attract mostly casual gamers.

--Ocram

[Trioxis 32]

I thought this thread was closed? Anyway, they talk about casual gamers and casual games but there's no clear definition of what those terms mean in that context.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

There're too many demographics discussion in other threads, which belongs here in this thread. Specifically on demographic description (hardcore vs casual) and core values of legacy SimCity....

 

To recap... various positions on labelling / describing SimCity core gamer:

 

Hard Core - in post #55 Lucy Bradshaw of Maxis said in her presentation "Primary Target: SimCity Fans, hard core gamers." and also attributed SimCity’s financial and popularity success to “Open model garnered hard core appeal”.
 

Casual - some users claim typical SimCity players are "nerd gamers" who ought to be labelled "casual gamers"; possible rationale...nerds...are...casual....people....

 

I prefer to go with the official game creator's description of their own baby: hard core appeal for hard core gamers.

 

But just for convo let's look at the term "hard core", how it's used in this discussion...

 

The argument to label legacy SimCity gamers as "casual and not hard core gamers" are fraud with obvious assumptions and misconceptions, which are...

 

- violence/ destructive games = hard core, constructive/creative games = casual (obviously false)

- all constructive/creative games are uninvolving/ un-addictive; their gamers are unenthusiastic, not hard core about their game and community (obviously false)

- only nerds play sim games; nerds look/act/talk/walk casual; so sim games = casual (obviously false again)

- when nerds play violent games, nerds look/act/walk/talk casual; but said games are still labelled "hard core" (obvious logical inconsistency)

 

The premise, it seems, is if a game is teen-safe, it is not hard core. Perhaps there's a real need to decouple the word hard core from excessive reference to sex or violence, and return to its original meaning, that is

 

Merriam Webster: a small number of very active and enthusiastic members of a group : the most devoted and active members of a group

 

Have you seen how hard core the typical The Sims players can be? Very, very enthusiastic, very very involved and in for the long haul. Hard core to the core.

 

Have you seen nerdy shooter gamers casually kill/shoot with their equally geeky virtual team mates while munching chips and chatting with their date on a typical mundane afternoon? Even yawning and texting as they splatter more blood? Then move on to another shooter game? Very very casual indeed.

 

There's nothing casual about a typical SimCity session - it's a highly complex and involved thing to plan and build your city simultaneously in terms of traffic, pollution control, economy mix, costs, income, visual appeal vs functional requirements. So many variables considered at once at every moment. I would theorize that a typical SimCity session lights up more parts of our brain and create more new synapses than a typically linear-calculation GTA session.

 

In terms of active mental psychological emotional and energetic involvement, legacy SimCity is potentially more hard core than typical shooters.

 

So, yes, I agree with Lucy Bradshaw on SimCity being a hard core gamer's game.

[Xenocity 343]

@SoftcoreGamer

Contextual hardcore and literal hardcore are two different definitions.

Current hardcore gaming is nearly identical to the definition of hardcore music

 

Oxford Dictionary (the Non American English Dictionary) defines Hardcore in terms of Music as:

Popular music that is experimental in nature and typically characterized by high volume and aggressive presentation.

If we replaced music with video games it would define current gaming as well (First Person shooters are the youngest genre in gaming currently and are still considered to be in experimental stage)

 

Hardcore gamer is a dynamic term as in it changes over time.

 

Hardcore Gamer by video game generations:

 

1980-1993: Platformers/Arcade games

1994-2000:RPGs/Fighting games

2000-2006:RPGs/Shooters/EA sports

2006+: Shooters/violent games/Sports.

 

1993/1994 is when Mortal Kombat became widely popular in the West along side RPGs.

1997 is when FFVII came out with its dark dystopian theme

~2000 is when EA sports became the juggernaut we all hate.

2001 is when GTA became popular with the launch of GTA 3 in full open world 3D.

2004 is when Halo 2 came out launching online shooters into the mainstream

2006 is when Call of Duty became the biggest franchise in gaming behind Mario Kart and Pokemon in terms of sales.

 

Hardcore Gamer (as definied by the industry, media, market research and tracking firms):

Male 15-35 who plays violent games, shooters, sports games, and games with M rating and maybe T rating.

 

This determines what games developers make and market.

 

Casual Gamer (as definied by the industry, media, market research and tracking firms):

Those who don't fit into the current definition of Hardcore Gamer.

 

Gaming Demographics:

The below graph show gaming demographics on iOS, which surprisingly (or not) mirrors the  demographics of console and PC gaming.

This graph hasn't changed in almost 3 years with each year and month looking the same.

(Handhelds including 3DS and Vita are generally ignored by hardcore gamers)

 

 

 

Region III is the hardcore gamer demographic (Males 15-35)

The only new addition is card battling into the hardcore demographic (probably due to the fact that iPhones just launched a few months ago in SE Asia)

 

All other regions are casual/nerdy/kiddy/soccer moms etc... as in not hardcore.

 

Where does Simcity fall in this graph?

It is in Region IV.

 

Now you might be highly shocked that women are the biggest buyers of Simulation games (not just the The Sims series but also Simcity).

This also applies for PC and console gaming as well!

 

Also anyone who is interested in gaming should read this article from NPR.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/11/29/246747168/hard-core-and-casual-gamers-play-in-different-worlds

 

It talks about hardcore vs. casual gaming and it is from Nov. 22nd 2013 (the launch week of PS4 and Xbox One)

 

 

Industry shift:

How did hardcore gaming becoming violence and shooters for the most part?

 

Well many of those kids in the mid 1990s who were hardcore gamers, grew up and became today's developers.

They were the kids in the 1990s who whined about their games being too kiddy, and/or E-rated (part of that time it was K-A before it was replaced with E).

They also bemoaned the lack of violence in their games as well.

They decided to remake gaming into what they wanted it to be.... which was violent and M rated.

 

Then 2007 occured....

Console sales in Japan shifted to handhelds and to a lesser extent Wii.

The Japanese industry outside of Nintendo imploded upon themselves with due to stupid decisions regarding HD transition (it caught up with Nintendo in 2013)

The PC developers shifted to console development (most were based in the U.S. and made shooters).

The PC and console market became American focused due to the U.S. generating most of the sales.

Mid tier developer went out of business due to a lack of sales and inability to address the American tastes.

 

These countries make up the biggest market for PC and Console games:

• U.S.
• UK
• Ireland
• Canada
• Australia
• New Zeland

These six countries account for over 60% of the total PC and console gaming market.

They also share the same tastes as the U.S.

 

What makes the hardcore aka violent gamers so important?

They spend more money by far on gaming than everyone else put together (digital games not counted, DLC is).

They are also more loyal and accepting than everyone else.

 

 

Simcity:

($ don't represent an acutal amount of money below, they just illustrate the point)

 

Simcity 1 (includes Expansion packs)

Development costs: $

Total revenue from sales: $$$$$

Profit: $$$$

 

Simcity 2000 (includes Expansion packs)

Development costs: $$

Total revenue from sales: $$$$$$

Profit: $$$$

 

Simcity 3000/3000U

Development costs: $$$

Total revenue from sales: $$$$$$$$

Profit: $$$$$

 

Simcity 4 (includes Expansion pack)

Development costs: $$$$$$

Total revenue from sales: $$$$

Total revenue from RH:$

Loss: $

 

 

Simcity 2013 (includes Expansion pack and DLC)

Development costs: $$$$$$$

Total revenue from sales: $$$$$$$

Total revenue from CoT: $

Total revenue from DLC: $

Profit: $$ and counting

 

To date Simcity 2013 is the second best selling mainline Simcity behind Simcity 3000/3000U.

According to EA sales are steady and user activity is still quite high for Simcity 2013.

 

 

Why did EA/Maxis decided to chase the hardcore gamer with Simcity 2013?

Development costs have increased expontentially over the past decade.

Simulation games are expensive to make due to the simulation engine.

Sadly Simulation (it is one of my favorite genre of games) doesn't sell well enough to justify the costs for the most part.

 

Simcity 4 sadly didn't sell enough to breakeven.

Rush Hour sold even less forcing Maxis to cancel the other expansion packs that were in development.

 

 

 

 

Current state of the gaming industy as a whole:

 

The only developers who are currenlty profitable are Take-Two (due to GTAV), Activision (due to Call of Duty and Blizzard games), Ubisoft (due to Assassins Creed), Capcom (due to Monster Hunter 4), and Epic (due to Microsoft buying Gears of War franchise)

 

 

In today's industry most PC and console games need to sell between 3-5 million to breakeven due to development costs.

It is very hard to meet this mark without getting today's hardcore gamers on board.

 

TL;DR version:

 

• Males 15-35 = hardcore gamers = violent video games and shooters = 60%+ of total money spent on PC and video games  worldwide
• Development costs went through the roof
• Games need to sell at least 3 million to breakeven for the most part
• Developers are part of today's hardcore gaming demographic
• Games targeted at today's hardcore gamers are most likely to turn a profit.
• Hardcore gaming changes every generation or two.

 

 

 

In the end just play what you want regardless of labels (provided those games are still being made).

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

@Xenocity : You're right, gamers should just ignore industry labels and play however they want. Not that gamers need this reminding anyway...

 

"Contextual hardcore and literal hardcore are two different definitions."

 

Indeed, and expanding on that: taking transient contextual definition too literally and too far can lead to multi-million losses, which is what's been happening. The loss course could be averted or at least softened by IMPROVED LISTENING SKILL and course correction, seems to be what's happening...

 

EA Maxis is running after core fans now shouting offline solo moddability. They have hopefully learned, even the tiny demographical gap between The Sims and SimCity audience matters a great freaking deal. That it is expensive to be misled by egos, over-simplified demographic boxes, or statistical misinterpretation...

 

The survey graph posted is case in point: convenienty ignored far more complex categorization, carelessly lumped all sim games under ONE CATEGORY: Management/Sim. So apparently, City/Flight/Train/Transport/Mech sims are all play by 30% male 70% females! Yeah OK if the stat god says so...LOL

 

But nevermind...your chart is a mere iOS report. Majority PC games=Windows. So stats super distorted. Mgnt/Sims category was probably swayed heavy by female-leaning The Sims and definitely female-dominated Farmville. Regardless, IMO the more accurate broad category for most sim games is Strategy-Solo-Sim. Which sits squarely in the all-encompassing gender-neutral, age-neutral middle. Where SimCity should be. Which makes more common sense...

 

 

Which brings us to......SEXISM. Or...How To Screw Up A Good Product With Sexist Vision.

 

I was kinda tickled someone here accused me of being sexist for making the (gasp) shocking claim that SC2013 is trying hard to appeal to the pink side. Like that's a secret. Mmm so if I say SC2014 intend to appeal to Chinese with Shanghai architectural style I would then be racist? LOL...

 

Anyhow...I've argued for underestimated SimCity female presence in my very first post in this thread, so I won't be shocked at all if you could magically whip out hard evidence showing SimCity core fans as majority females. Who knows, most gender-ambiguous forum avatars are really girls, who knows!

 

For the sake of good game not going to waste, I do wish game company execs - male or female - would pay more attention to far more complex reality. Traditionally it's been easier - they split neatly into blue/pink dolls/guns ken/barbie boxes. But today's females who play PC games - around 150 million of them and as numerous as the male counterpart, are not so easily pigeon-holed.

 

The issue here is not SimCity core fans going "Oh no the graphical style has gone barbie and shiny!" or "oh no girls are not welcomed in nerd boy zone!" Simtrop is a correct, girl-friendly zone.

 

As a female Gamasutra commentator/gamer said - the industry needs to

 

Move Away from 'Pink It and Shrink It" Marketing

 

Game execs, EA/MAxis included, have

• underestimated female gamers' capacity for deep challenging problem-solving: intelligent, serious games like SimCity are made simpler and fluffier for the supposedly lighter-weight, shorter-attention-span female gamer brain
• underestimated young male gamers' equal passsion for non-aggressive non-competitive creative-constructive or even nurturing games

 

My projection is the gray "androgynous" area of the chart will be 80% by 2020. Genderizing games and gamers will eventually be totally meaningless for design or marketing.

 

Still, female gamers as a demographics is relatively "new" to the lope-sided-vision industry. Female gamers have been ignored until a few years ago. So now they're suddenly in hot pursuit. That's why EA-Maxis did not stop at SimCity The Sims merger attempt. They aimed higher - they wanted what Zynga created: 20 million strong Farmvillers. Hence we didn't just get Sims4 with SimCity features. We get...

 

FARMVILLIZING of SIMCITY

 

Evidently, SC2013 is not SimCity Resurrected or SimCity 5. It is a SimCity derivative game. It is EA:SimFarmVille. It's a new sort of beast. Which is meh, but fine.

 

Problem is, EA/Maxis, already late to the "social games" party, misunderstood the demographic data. They thought "social" games meant classic games with added "social" stuff. And if a game LOOKS like our sim game, it must BE a sim game! We can do that! Bigger! Better! Oh their users mostly >35 Pink Ladies? A strange new breed of gamers with money and time to spare? We totally get them - mature ladies need to kill time and socialize and share their decorative achievements in pretty relax easy-going little areas! Let's not freak them out with scary big maps! We go Casual-er! Cutesier! Fussier! Shinier! Smaller! Familiar! Less is More!

 

The result is Farmvillized SC2013, based on a lethal formula of

 

(FarmVille = a Sim genre) falsehood + (Social = Female = Chat-obsessed Social Butterflies) assumption + (Female gamers = Timid & Casual & Style-Over-Substance gamers) assumption = (Classic games + Crippled Features + Shrunken Freedom + Social features + Fluff + FarmVille Atmosphere = Sure-Fire Female Gamers Netter)

 

Reality is, Farmville's success with the underestimated and lucrative older female group has nothing to do with "female" interest in "simulation genre", or a "female" need to "socially bond". It popularity has everything to do with Facebook's essential nature, SOCIAL COMPETITION, which is not even gender-specific. Farmville is NOT a "sim game with socializing features", but a hyper-competitive social-climbing everyone-loves-me game that happened to be fun for SOME mature females ON FACEBOOK. Point is, Farmvillers never cared about sim games, city or farm or train or kitchen sim.

 

Basically, one industry sexist blindspot = over-associating female dominance of social sim category with "female's natural social inclination such as their constant need to chat and bond".

 

More than a year ago, I said Farmvillers won't get onboard SC2013 as EA fantasized. EA/Maxis learned of this miscalculation soon after SC2013 launch. Hence the surprisingly early annoucement that Sims4 will be offline solo. Lucky for The Sims crowd, SC2013 disaster saved Sims4. Still, later we learned SC2013 offline has been in the works for some time now. Yep, apparently Plan-B has been long activated because some wrong-headed fantatiscal expectations have not been met.

 

Verdict is clear: no female sim gamers - from The Sims or Farmville or Transport sims - flocked enmasse to Farmvillized SC2013 as expected. Even clearer:

 

- they totally misunderstood the psychographics of female-majority Farmvillers

- they totally under-estimated the intelligence, creative needs, privacy needs, and resistance of female Simsters.

 

Sexism doesn't pay.

 

I wouldn't be surprised instead of typically-intelligent (and committed) female sim gamers, SC2013 captured a diffused mix of male-majority casual gamers who rarely pay for DLCs, a MISC crowd that could've been captured with little effort anyway.

 

Lesson for EA+Maxis: Female gamers - especially those of the REAL sim genre - are not dumber, more timid, more socially-interested nor easier to manipulate than male sim gamers. And NEXT TIME, REGARDLESS OF YOUR SKEWED GENDER VISION, KEEP THE WINNING LEGACY GAME FEATURES INTACT.

 

Obviously, I'm still pissed...

[Xenocity 343]

@Softcoregamer

 

Simcity 2013 has literally nothing in common with farmville outside of the online only aspect.

 

Simcity 2013 has more in common with today's hardcore games such as World of Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, Skyrim,  and other MMOs.

All of these have:

• Achievements
• Online multplayer
• Paid DLC
• Free DLC
• Free Maps from time to time
• Messaging system

If anything Simcity 2013 is the successor to Simcity 2000 Network Editiont (the first online Simcity)

 

Simcity 2013 has good sales to show for it along with good player activity as reported in each EA quarterly report since game launched.

Simcity 2013 has been selling well enough to chart around the world, Simcity 3000 was the only other Simcity game to do so.

 

 

Simcity's future is etiher as an MMO (with offline play mode) or a shrunk down title that matches Simcity 3000.

 

There just isn't enough sales to support a full fledge Simcity 4 type game (Simcity 4 failed to chart around the world and saw a quick price drop)

 

Maxis learned the hard way with their bankruptcy as an independent company, which forced them to accept an EA buyout to stay in business (EA was the only company willing to buy Maxis)

 

Ultimately The Sims sales is why Maxis still allowed to produce the games they want.

 

I hate to say it but sales dictate the outcome of a business

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

Emm. QUITE CLEARLY - to me at least -----> SC2013's

• cute little 2x2 bite-size city plots
• disjointed city plots with huge unused gaps in between
• unthreatening pre-laid-out intercity connections
• lack of map editor
• modding prohibitions

 

all of which have nothing in common with SimCity3000 or Skyrim or today's standard MMOs, but scream? Yep. ZyngaVilles.

 

Haven't you seen how giant buildings rise vertically over those cute little CityVille or FarmVille plots? So SC2013. So not my thing too. Definitely not standard MMO features  LOL...

 

Seriously... SC2013 was made not because "SC3000 network edition was hot", or EA/Maxis wanted to give us SC5 because they're feeling nostalgic or bored, but a well-published, well-established EA/Maxis attempt to conquer a new trendy frontier - the 20 million strong ZyngaVilles market.

 

Probably not Maxis's fault, they are just following orders. Probably Maxis's fault, too, perhaps they didn't have enough confidence in their legacy Sim Franchises, or they too felt 2-5 million sales ain't sexy enough. Ironically, 2 mil is what they (claimed they) captured so far. They expected 20 million Social Sim Gamers to come, and they didn't.

 

The mistake EA/Maxis made this round is failing to grasp: a Social Game with Sim Features DOES NOT a Sim game with Social Feature make.

 

Don't blame the SimCity franchise being niche though. Don't blame the core fans for not coming too. Blame their own cluelessness, over-calculation and magical expectations. Oh, and SC4 is STILL doing very fine, without Maxis input or EA meddling, thank you very much.

 

And as to SC4 being a money-maker: EA/Maxis could've invested more in making SC4 expansions and aggressively market it to China. But they didn't for their own reasons, not because SC4 was a failure or unattractive. Look at Simtrop, look at Japan's SC4 scene after 10 years. But OK, selling <5 mil copies was becoming too boring in post-Nasdaq era. But, obviously, in post-2008 world and post-ZyngaVille 2013, suddenly single digit million is good enough again! 

 

In hindsight the most obvious thing to do next for Maxis was The Sims 4 and SimCity 5 "engagement", laying the ground for eventual TS5 and SC6 marriage. Or, well, just merge the Maxis Eve and Adam already. The size of SimCity core audience is not superhot but hot and noisy enough to boost and energize The Sims franchise to another level.

 

As a TS SC hybrid core fan, I can see how SC5 could be packaged in a way to capture a percentage of the 10 million strong TS audience. Say, another 2 or 3 million on top of existing hybrids like me.

 

Formula would be linear. What worked in SC3000/SC4 + what worked in TS2/TS3:

 

• CUSTOMIZABILITY - Design-Your-Sim room, Build Mode, Lot Editor, God Mode.... 

Basically, all the conventional god game features (which were removed from SC2013 which shows Maxis didn't make SC2013 in the image of  SC3000 network edition)

 

• OFFICIAL MODDING SUPPORT - Create-a-World tool, Lot Editor Parameter Tweaking Tool, official 3D model importer.... 

Maxis was never half-hearted in their support for casual ro hard core modders. SC2013 has none of the above.

 

• OFFICIAL 3RDPARTY MARKET SUPPORT - The Sims 3 already have an open market that complement/ compete with official store. EA/Maxis still makes money. Customers get more options and varieties. Market buzz generates more news more sales more longevity more profit. It makes sense this model continues into next gen.

 

IMO the open market model is the most $ALE$ friendly decision Maxis has ever made.

 

Whatever Maxis chooses in the mid haul, I wish them all the best. As a long time Maxis customer I hope they have enough juice in their engine still to move this Sim ship along for many more years.

[Akerbeltz 33]

@ SoftcoreGamer

 

I was to jump into the discussion but you hit the nail already. Brilliant analysis!

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Wow, some very interesting discussion on this page. I also agree with SoftcoreGamer on those points. Very well made.

Sales may dictate the outcome of a business but a game made with the right intentions by design dictates the life of a franchise. The life of a franchise dictates the how long the owner is in business.

 

There is too much calculating outcomes based on demographics and sales predictions. What happened to a developer just creating something they think is awesome for whatever reason and making the thing to stand in its own juice as a creation with a certain function? I doubt that the creator of Sim City in 1989 predicted this community today or even cared. I will never respect this practice of creating a product where sales is the end product. People with this mindset should just get a money printing machine and call it a day. Let's get back to creating something for fun that happens to appeal to many that brings blessings to the creator.

 

Why does a game have to appeal to so many in order for it to be considered successful. It's not the amount of quantity gained but the longevity of the game's life due to the undying enjoyment of the end user. Look at Luke, the one guy who made Banished that put SC2013 to shame with their big staff and millions of dollars budget and demographics readers with big salaries.  He already have a huge following and we have a new soon to be moddable city builder that I think is gonna last a very long time. And yes that game already have hard core fans of it today in a very short period of time. It was made with love and intent to engage the city builder gamer. Not an irrelevant demographic gaming type with dollar signs on their heads.

[Xenocity 343]

. What happened to a developer just creating something they think is awesome for whatever reason and making the thing to stand in its own juice as a creation with a certain function?

 

 

The lack of funding and sales.

 

Development costs have gone through the roof these days while gaming sales have consolidated around the popular titles while everything that once occupid the middle including titles like Simcity don't sell enough anymore to justify the budget.

Marketing costs have also increased in signficantly.

Lastly Most major retailers in the U.S. and EU will only stock games that are likely to sell in the millions and make them a siginficant product.

If you want a retailer like Walmart, Best Buy, Toysrus, Asda (UK), Tesco (UK), and others to stock lesser selling product you have to pay them enough to ensure a decent profit.

Retailers do not stock products for free anymore and they require you to pay seperate fee for them to promote it in their ads or in store.

 

This is why most lower selling games get very little shelf space (like 3-5 copies per high traffic store).

Most aren't even sold instore these days due to how low selling they are.

That's why we are forced to buy them digitally or online (if you want a physical copy).

Nintendo had to cut retailers to get certain 3rd party titles they publish such as Monster Hunter 3 and 3U, Dragon Quest XI and VI, Newly released Bravely Default (You should own this, if you own a 3DS).

Nintendo also had to give retailers a greater margin to get their lesser selling titles stocked.

 

Retailer cut:

• Right now a publishers/developers only makes $15-$20 on good and high selling $50 - $60 games that are stocked at retailers.
• Publishers/developers make ~$5 - $10 or so on each lesser selling title the $50 - $60 games stocked at retailers.
• Publishers/developers makes ~$10 - $15 on good and high selling $30 - $40 games stocked at retailers.
• Publishers/developers makes <$7 on each lesser selling $30 - $40 games stocked at retailers.
• Publishers/developers makes <$5 on every game priced less than $30.

Retailers take upwards of half of the price of every game sold, more if you do in store promotions and store ads.

Retailers also require most publishers/developers to buy back unsold copies at a retailer set price (normally at profit for the retailers).

The rest of the money goes to print, marketing, distribution costs.

 

Digital on the other hand:

• Apple, Google, Steam, Origin and Nintendo (eShops not Wii Shop Channel) takes 30% of total sales (includes DLC and Microtransactions of 3rd party game and apps.
• XBLA and PSN take ~40% for the most part, there are special rules regarding DLC and Microtransactions
• Obviously EA gets 100% of all revenue for their stuff on Origin
• Online Retailers (including websites of established retailers) still take a bigger percentage than the above mentioned platforms.

Add this on top of millions of dollars required to develop non indie and Nintendo titles (Nintendo's most expensive game to date cost $3 Million to make), it has become very expensive to sell a game.

This is why games need to sell upwards of 5 million to breakeven.

 

Most publishers and investors are not willing to fund titles unless they make huge profits.

 

@Softcoregamer

 

Simcity 4 isn't doing well in from a business stand point because it hasn't sell enough to cover the development costs after 10 years on the market. 

 

It is good for those dedicated fans, who still play Simcity 4 on a regular basis.

 

Rush Hour expansion pack sold only a few hundred thousand overall,  which is awful for any expansion pack in a major series.

Maxisi received the message that most weren't interested in  more expansion packs.

 

EA/Maxis got the message loud and clear via market research, gaming press and gaming forums when they decided the future of the franchise.

 

What it all told them was, Gamers wanted a more "HARDCORE" Simcity that fit with their other games and was less complicated to play.

Believe it or not complicated games have traditionally been rejected by the market.

 

I know it is hard for you to believe that developers and publishers use market research to make their games.

 

Simcity 4 would have sold even worse if it was released today because frankly it doesn't appeal to most gamers or the mass market.

Simcity 4 like Simcity 2000, appeals to diehard simulation fans not hardcore or core gamers.

 

 

China since the 1980s has banned most computer and video games including all video game systems.

Simcity, Pokemon, WoW, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy and most others are currently still banned in Mainland China (Hong Kong is the special exception due to a 47 year treaty provision with the UK beginning in 1999)

If China does approve Simcity for sale in China, EA would have alter the game to meet their demands and find a local company who is willing to sell and market the product as their own product instead of a EA product due to Chinese gaming regulations.

EA would then have to split the profits which is around 40% with said Chinese company also due to regulations.

 

Something similar would also have to be done in Brazil, India, Russia and other emerging markets to warrant a full fledged release.

I know it is hard for most Westerners to understand that many countries have these kinds of regulations.

 

This is why most gaming companies avoid China, Russia, and other countries.

Not to mention it is quite hard to find a retailer willing to stock your products in these countries.

 

Many of you need to realize the realities of the current market.

Most games are bombing regardless of the genre, rating, publisher, developer, status etc...

Most developers have gone out of business as the industry is consolidating around a handful of developers/publishers.

Within the next few years we will literally be left with 10 or less major gaming companies.

Since this past December the following developers have gone out of business/acquired or have experienced massive layoffs:

• Irrational Games closed last week for good (makers of Bioshock series). Nearly everyone was laid off due to the lastest installment of Bioshock not selling enough even at ~2 million.
• Atlus/Index was bought out by Sega due to Index going bankrupt. (Index was the parent company of Atlus)
• Sega has laid off more people as they have continued to merge and shutter developers
• Sony forced Sony Santa Monica to lay off 1/4th of their total staff due to low sales of God of War: Ascension (they make mainly God of War games)
• Zynga is heading into bankruptcy due to huge losses eating up their cash reserves.
• EA has been restructuring again since the new CEO took over. This has been leading to shuttering of studios and layoffs.
• Amazon bought Double Helix who was making the New killer Instinct and Strider

 

As for Maxis:

•  
• Maxis was unable to make enough money off their games and other products to stay in business.
• Maxis went bankrupt in 1995.
• Maxis was forced to find a buyer or completely liquidate within a year.
• Maxis went to every major gaming company looking for a buyout.
• Every major gaming company turned them down including Activision and Nintendo
• Maxis turned to EA for a buyout
• EA said yes and completed the buyout in 1997
• EA allowed Maxis to make Simcity 3000 and Simcity 4
• Simcity 4 didn't sell enough to break even.
• Maxis made The Sims, which became EA's best selling game ever!
• Maxis made Spore, though it didn't sell enough to turn a profit
• Maxis then made Darkspore, that bombed even worse
• EA was forced to consolidate and restructure Maxis
• Maxis also produced The Sims expansion pack and The Sims 2.
• Maxis was unable to complete The Sims 3 in a timely manner, so EA made The Sims Studio to handle the development.
• After restructuring was finished, Maxis was allowed to make Simcity 2013 and The Sims 4.

Simcity 2013 was literally Maxis last chance at making a mainline Simcity title.

Will Simcity 2013 be a big enough success to save Simcity? The coming months will tell.

Honestly I don't think Simcity 2013 will be a big enough success to save the franchise.

I also don't believe anyone can make a city simulator that can succed in today's market.

 

This is due to combination of high develompent costs, changing market tastes, rapidly dropping prices, and impatient investors.

 

Hell EA couldn't even get Simcity Social which was made to compete against Farmville and such to gain market share.

 

The 4 best selling Simcity games since Simcity 3000U are:

1. Simcity/Simcity Deluxe - modified port of Simcity 3000U (iOS/Android)
2. Simcity (SNES version - Wii VC release)
3. Simcity Creator DS - modified port of Simcity 3000U (DS)
4. Simcity Creator Wii - a 3D reimagining of the original with added features from other games (Developed by Hudson released on Wii)

The one thing these all had in common was they released for less than $30, with the iOS/Android version launching at $5.

 

If Maxis can find a way to make a full Simcity game with modern graphics and sell it for less than $30 at launch, it would stand a good fighting chance at succeededing.

 

Though to be fair most people aren't willing to spend more than $20 including most gamers on new games.

The day of people spending $35+ per new titles has ended.

 

Over the next 3-5 years gaming will consist mainly of:

• Shooters
• Sports games
• Action/adventure games
• Racers
• Platformers
• Big Budget RPGs.

These are the genres that bring in the majority of sales.

 

Developers will be very unlikely to produce anything else due to the sheer lack of profit and publisher and retailer support.

Retailers will be very reluctant to stock anything that isn't a decent money maker.

Publishers won't fund or distribute a game that isn't garuanteed to sell well enough to chart and make a front loaded profit.

 

Mobile gaming is currently a bubble waiting to pop as most games struggle to get enough sales to breakeven.

Very few mobile games make the huge profits we keep reading about.

 

Casual games such as Simcity series (it is labeled casual if you like it or not by the mass market), mini games, licensed games (most of them anwyays), fitness games, music games, digital board and puzzle games, strategy games, simulation games, etc... (these all make up the casual label) are seeing customers rejecting and/or ingoring the games.

 

 

Since nearly everyone on this site including me and you fit the definition of casual gamers,  will be forced to adapt our tastes to this new market or run out of new games to buy and play.

Personally I'm spending less and less money each passing year on due to the changing and consolidating market, so I shouldn't complain to much.

 

Short version:

 

• Gaming is rapidly consolidating around major selling titles and indie games.
• The majority of the major selling titles are hardcore games such as Call of Duty, GTA, Assassins Creed, FIFA, and Madden.
• Getting funding to make a game is based on sales potentional
• Getting retailer support is based on sales potentional
• Retailers have started to allocate most of their gaming shelf space to major selling titles making it harder to get your games stocked
• Retailers make you pay to stock lesser titles.
• Those who hate major selling hardcore titles are having less games to buy each year.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

You misunderstand. The point I'm trying to make is that if someone has an idea and want to share it with the world, they share it. Doesn't matter if the idea is funded or not. Just take the initiative and make the creation. Money does not dictate creation. That's for those who are not interested in anything of value other than if it is profitable money wise. What about the real love for the product. Many things we enjoy today is in our lives because someone thought of a brilliant idea that was not fueled by weighing profitability. These guys just invented a magnetic zipper. Their intentions was to make a zipper their impaired uncle can use. Though they will likely get rich from it, the beginning intent was not monetary. The reason good service and products made to last are dropping today is because of this focus on money being the end game.

 

Looking at statistics means nothing to me. When it comes to playing Sim City 4, I consider myself a hardcore fan because I will play it and interact in forums the way some players would not even though they like the game. Not everyone who picks up Sim City 4 is gonna have the patience to deal with the plugins folder and all that is required to enjoy the custom content to their fullest. You have to have a certain amount of love and determination to go through all that. So what would you say about Banished? That situation have nothing to do with the industry and number crunching suits....and it's a success not becuase Luke is making a lot of money, but because the community have something they really enjoy.

[Xenocity 343]

You misunderstand. The point I'm trying to make is that if someone has an idea and want to share it with the world, they share it. Doesn't matter if the idea is funded or not. Just take the initiative and make the creation. Money does not dictate creation. That's for those who are not interested in anything of value other than if it is profitable money wise. What about the real love for the product. Many things we enjoy today is in our lives because someone thought of a brilliant idea that was not fueled by weighing profitability. These guys just invented a magnetic zipper. Their intentions was to make a zipper their impaired uncle can use. Though they will likely get rich from it, the beginning intent was not monetary. The reason good service and products made to last are dropping today is because of this focus on money being the end game.

 

Looking at statistics means nothing to me. When it comes to playing Sim City 4, I consider myself a hardcore fan because I will play it and interact in forums the way some players would not even though they like the game. Not everyone who picks up Sim City 4 is gonna have the patience to deal with the plugins folder and all that is required to enjoy the custom content to their fullest. You have to have a certain amount of love and determination to go through all that. So what would you say about Banished? That situation have nothing to do with the industry and number crunching suits....and it's a success not becuase Luke is making a lot of money, but because the community have something they really enjoy.

The difference here is a game or most software for that matter takes a sizable team of people  and years of time to produce.

Sure if someone could spend countless years developing a game on their own, but that hasn't happened since Tetris in the 1980s.

But that is highly unrealistic to expect someone to produce a simulator game solely on thier own.

Though they'd probably get sued and shut down for violating patents and copyrights (it happens frequently for indie developers in gaming)

Or they will probably have their games ripped off by the very publishers they've teamed up with (this happens way too much, especially with Ubisoft and the creator of Tetris though that was a special case regarding the collapse of the USSR)

 

We are talking software in this thread, especially why Maxis didn't produce a successor to Simcity 4 and why they do what they do.

That is obviously driven by market forces and sales.

 

Is Simcity 4 a failure? Economically Yes! Modders/diehard fans view, No.

is Mac OSX a failure? PC industry says yes due to low market share (Windows holds 85%+ market share)! Developers say yes (It has less software than Windows). Apple says no (it makes them a decent profit).

Is iOS a failure? It depends on who you talk to (Android holds 70%+ of the global market share).

Is Playstation Vita a success? Gamers, media, investors, developers all say Yes! Vita owners say No. Sony refuses to comment.

 

All products are defined by market performance, profit, and support.

 

Every game has its hardcore/diehard fans, there's nothing wrong with that.

There is an issue when they constantly go about how the company/developer has screwed them over, abandoned them, etc... while lashing out publicly about it, and going after those who disagree with them.

 

Right now see Smash Bros. fans lashing out at Nintendo about the game mechanics of the new game that is due out this year.

Or see Final Fantasy fans fighting over the FFXIII trilogy.

Or Sonic fans arguing over whether or not Sonic Lost Worlds (Wii U) is a good game (I like the game).

 

I mean I own both Simcity 2013 and Simcity 4, I have spent 100s of hours on both.

Granted Simcity 2013 gets the benefit for being installed on OSX (I can also run it in the background without it locking up), while Simcity 4 is on my Windows partition.

Though to be fair I spend most of my gaming time on my 3DS, while my computer and console games rarely get played (I do need to clear my backlog).

 

... Obviously I lost my train thought.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

@Xenocity

 

Selling games to China, or BRIC, lots of hurdles to cross. Granted. But China has just opened up end of 2013. Like Germany and rest of the civilized world, China also spelled out clearly why they banned what they ban. So when in Rome. Have manners. Simple. No excuse now. Sharing 40% with a local rep should not be that painful. Profit is profit. The demand is there no doubt, BRIC or Europe or South East Asia. New urbanites of Indonesia and Vietnam and developing megacities want to play city bosses. A quick visit to SimCity.cn revealed that Chinese city-builder fans have been buying SC2013 directly on Origin, even willing to deal with all sorts of payment workaround and bandwidth inconveniences using Honh Kong and Taiwan channels. The passion. So what's the excuse.

 

Make money, by all means, just don't kill the products. Sell me corns and potatos, just don't poison and scorch mother earth while doing it. Game biz is like their cousins music/ film biz, their don't care about creating market, or the market sentiment, they just want to gobble up market creators, until the biggest fattest one among them rise to the top. The side effect of leaving behind a barren landscape full of game corpses and malinvestments? Too bad. SC2013 could well be another collateral damage, Maxis has taken their gamble to ignore legacy SC fans until terminal stage.

 

What happened if Hollywood suits decided Toystory 2 is a distant 1999 dream and Toystory 3 is not worth a $200 million investment in a 2010 market saturated with 3D animations?

 

They would've missed a $1 BILLION boat.

 

What happened if movie producers ignore cries of legacy fans and ran after hot industry trend and make a mom-approved kid-friendly Batman: Toy City or Despicable Batman?

 

Batman: the bomb.

 

What happened if Bethesda decided ES:Oblivion's mere $2 or $3 million sales under-performed expectation and turn out a cute & casual ObliVille with message board - and shipped WITHOUT The Elder Scrolls Construction Set, by consensus one of the best official modding toolset ever created?

 

They would've missed a $20 million Skyrim boat. Nevermind how much oblivating Bethesda will received from the ES diehards.

 

It's easy for Too Big To Care bloated dinosaur EAs of the world to lose touch with what exactly is it they are selling. It's easy for Maxis to get lost in between priorities to meet shareholder's vs customers' demands. It's easy to forget GAME manufacturers are suppose to be about creating fun experiences, not contrived DLC TRAPS.

 

Seduce us. Pls do. Just don't blame gamers for being fickled or stingy. Gamers will always pay and pay a for a good addictive game, music fan will always pay for the music one way or other, to Viacom overloads, to hardware biz, or or to Lorde's future own indie label.

 

Upfront... casual gamers may pay $2.99 to 9.99, Hard Core fans, $35, maybe; Diehard fans, will easily pay $35 x 3 for a game they love. I know diehard fans here who willingly give $100 crowdfund to real or conman SC5 makers.

 

Point is: SC2013 is a Batman:Toy City that drew in 2 million casual viewers. Diehard legacy fans will ignore it to death.

 

Not saying making a SC5 will definitely fetch 20 million sales. Just saying, Maxis needs to show they are SERIOUSLY CHANGING DIRECTION AND MEETING GROUND-LEVEL NEEDS. And I say "needs", not "demands" or "hardcore sentiment". No nebulous promises will do. Trust is gone, what works now is CLEAR EVIDENCE.

 

Most enlightened move for all involved remains: INVEST in reforming SC2013 into a SC5.  Gear it towards a "prequel" to Sims 4. If only to warm up for Sims 4. Work harder on a SC5-like expansion for SC2013. Stop wasting money in the wrong direction. News: China city-builder fans are also celebrating offline-solo announcement. Stop wasting everyone's time.

 

And stay proactive. Stop wasting resources:

 

SimCity diehard community may not be strong in numbers, but in terms of passion and creative prowesss and staying power, they are a rare high quality breed of fans, a power resource still untapped by a forgetful and clueless and blindsided Maxis. So far this co-developer equivalent had been treated at best like a bastard-cousin during Xmas lunches. SC4 community leaders and techies and creatives deserve at least some real investment as TheSimsResource when Sims3 was being launched. Now that's what I call REAL core fan engagement and marketing strategy.

 

Okay, time for a coffee break... Yak on people...

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

One thing you cannot deny is the fact that SC4 is still on store shelves today. You cannot say this about most PC games that came out over a decade ago. Whether it sold 20 million or 20,000 copies does not matter. What matters is that it's still alive with a thriving community and I'm sure the owner though they do not seem to appreciate it don't mind the consistent revenue.

 

@Xenocity BTW you still did not address the Banished question which contradicts some things you said in your last post.