Population limit?

[Dewm 177]

This quote is taken from the GameSpy review that is up on home page

"It's an impersonation made possible by a mind-bogglingly detailed simulation -- one that simultaneously keeps constant tabs on up to 200,000 of these guys as they go through their daily lives. By comparison, the four prior SimCitys are primitive, basing their simulations on statistical guesswork that has only a foggy idea of where a particular Sim might be at any given moment. "

So from what I understand everything in the game will be run by these "bots" AKA the sims, they will be called each morning by companies and industry to get jobs etc etc..

But from what I am seeing here "the game can keep tabs on up to 200,000" So does that mean we will have a population limit of 200k?

[LivingInThePast 364]

I'm guessing that it will only keep tabs on 200k. Remember how the Arcologies in SC2K had distinct "Microsim" stats with grades, fluctuating population, and a cool sound effect, but if you placed enough of them they'd just become generic query boxes, even they added to the population. I'm guessing it will be something like that.

[Dewm 177]

I'm guessing that it will only keep tabs on 200k. Remember how the Arcologies in SC2K had distinct "Microsim" stats with grades, fluctuating population, and a cool sound effect, but if you placed enough of them they'd just become generic query boxes, even they added to the population. I'm guessing it will be something like that.

Hmmm its been so long I honestly don't remember that.

So you think that sims will continue to run there algorithms even though the engine isn't keeping tabs on them?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, I think that if they overflow the population limit the simulation will just go statistical. How long does it take you to get to 200,000 Sims in Sc4? I haven't had a city of that size in some time because I am doing rural stuff.

[shanemelbourne 29]

I saw the same 200k population limit per city and the alarm bells went off with me. As a region only has between 4 and 10 cities (was it from the same article?) that would make a theoretical max population of 2 million with each city having to have the maximum of 200k. The glass box engine is designed to keep tabs on each sim so I doubt that there would be an overflow population beyond 200k.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

A multiplayer region can be done between up to 16 players so 16 is the minimum (since you can turn any solo region into multi-player) though 16 might be the maximum as well... A realistic population density would also be needed (children might not even be simulated, just abstracted, like SCS) so the maximum population density might be analogous to SimCity 4 plus NAM and CAM and no custom (high population) residential buildings in a medium city tile. As a matter of fact, I will test that out right now. 3,200,000 might be a possible regional max.

[Dewm 177]

Well, I think that if they overflow the population limit the simulation will just go statistical. How long does it take you to get to 200,000 Sims in Sc4? I haven't had a city of that size in some time because I am doing rural stuff.

To be honest from what I understood is there wouldn't be a "overflow"

But the more I thought about this, if they are capping us at a "medium" sized city, 200k might not be to bad, While I despise the idea of any cap, I don't think I ever hit 200k on a medium size city... And maybe they'll make it a little more realistic? (no more 15 people living in a 3 bedroom house)

So we will have to see... But yeah at first I was like...

A multiplayer region can be done between up to 16 players so 16 is the minimum (since you can turn any solo region into multi-player) though 16 might be the maximum as well... A realistic population density would also be needed (children might not even be simulated, just abstracted, like SCS) so the maximum population density might be analogous to SimCity 4 plus NAM and CAM and no custom (high population) residential buildings in a medium city tile. As a matter of fact, I will test that out right now. 3,200,000 might be a possible regional max.

Do it!

  Edited April 11, 2012 by Dewm  

[Mark Waybill 242]

They could just simulate workers, and have a single worker per house/unit, and just statistically or graphically display children, wives, room mates etc. If Sims are going to live for a day and then be reborn, it hardly matters as long as the relativity is realistic.

But of course the whole concept of Sims living for one day doesn't agree with me.

[jacksunny 741]

As a region only has between 4 and 10 cities (was it from the same article?) that would make a theoretical max population of 2 million with each city having to have the maximum of 200k.

Where did you see this? I doubt we would be limited to only 10 cities.

[Cob92 360]

A multiplayer region can be done between up to 16 players so 16 is the minimum (since you can turn any solo region into multi-player) though 16 might be the maximum as well... A realistic population density would also be needed (children might not even be simulated, just abstracted, like SCS) so the maximum population density might be analogous to SimCity 4 plus NAM and CAM and no custom (high population) residential buildings in a medium city tile. As a matter of fact, I will test that out right now. 3,200,000 might be a possible regional max.

Unfortunately, all that you've said there is nothing more than speculation, since Maxis has given us no definite details.

[shanemelbourne 29]

As a region only has between 4 and 10 cities (was it from the same article?) that would make a theoretical max population of 2 million with each city having to have the maximum of 200k.

Where did you see this? I doubt we would be limited to only 10 cities.

I saw the 4 to 10 cities in a region quote in the gamespy preview (available from simtropolis' homepage or view below)... 4 to 10 cities in a region is mentioned in the paragraph below the "coal enterprises building" picture.

http://au.pc.gamespy.../1221798p1.html

  Edited April 11, 2012 by shanemelbourne  

[Dewm 177]

They could just simulate workers, and have a single worker per house/unit, and just statistically or graphically display children, wives, room mates etc. If Sims are going to live for a day and then be reborn, it hardly matters as long as the relativity is realistic.

But of course the whole concept of Sims living for one day doesn't agree with me.

From the videos they show, I get the firm opinion there will be multiple workers per house. They show the "economy" demo video, and when the factories send out the "help wanted ads" as they go by a few of the houses you see multiple cars leave..

And the more I think about this, I wonder if they are accounting for children in the 200k number, If you think about it. the whole game is run by these "agents" so it seems like they would set up the schools the same way, (Every morning they send out a "school bus" agent, then as it goes by houses the "kid" agents respond to the request..

We will have to see.. But I sure hope this isn't what Maxis is thinking.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

They could just simulate workers, and have a single worker per house/unit, and just statistically or graphically display children, wives, room mates etc. If Sims are going to live for a day and then be reborn, it hardly matters as long as the relativity is realistic.

But of course the whole concept of Sims living for one day doesn't agree with me.

I got the impression somewhere that there will be more than going to work in this simulation. Like taking the kids to school and going shopping, going to the park, etc. The dayfly concept doesn't bother me, because we are not simulating the lives of people but a city. You have to decide on your universe of discourse. If you want to fool with Sims, play The Sims.

[Cob92 360]

I think the agents are only the things that are tracked in motion on the networks, and are a separate quantity from the actual population. Perhaps the closest analogy would be the automata limit in SC4, where the number of cars on the road is related to the size of the population but not equal to it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

But I think you won't see the Agents in the simulation unless there is a debugging option available to track them. Remember that all this path following is done in the simulation which probably doesn't have an agent counterpart in the display.

[duack 14]

I think the agents are only the things that are tracked in motion on the networks, and are a separate quantity from the actual population. Perhaps the closest analogy would be the automata limit in SC4, where the number of cars on the road is related to the size of the population but not equal to it.

That's true. Also bear in mind that roughly half the population would be at home during the rush hours, just like it was in SC4. Given that, the theoretical population limit is 400K. Also, as mentioned in the other forum the cities will be 4km sqaured, so the maximum density for a city is 100,000 per square kilometre. To give you an idea of how high that is, Manhattan has a density of around 27,300 a square kilometre, so a limit of 200k agents per city makes sense, so long as the region can have a higher population, which Im guessing it would.

[Dewm 177]

I think the agents are only the things that are tracked in motion on the networks, and are a separate quantity from the actual population. Perhaps the closest analogy would be the automata limit in SC4, where the number of cars on the road is related to the size of the population but not equal to it.

That's true. Also bear in mind that roughly half the population would be at home during the rush hours, just like it was in SC4. Given that, the theoretical population limit is 400K. Also, as mentioned in the other forum the cities will be 4km sqaured, so the maximum density for a city is 100,000 per square kilometre. To give you an idea of how high that is, Manhattan has a density of around 27,300 a square kilometre, so a limit of 200k agents per city makes sense, so long as the region can have a higher population, which Im guessing it would.

Well if agents are just the things tracked in motion on the network, that would include: Traffic to work, factory "help wanted ads", power, water (And these are just the ones we know about from their vid.)

Doesn't include the likely: Civic, Education, Sanitation, Pedestrian..etc...

[Ocram's Razr 964]

1. With the decreased population density, I have yet to reach 200,000 sims in any if my cities of my new region using CAM, NAM, and SPAM with all cities being 2x2km.

2. EA/Maxis stated that you can play a multiplayer region with up to 16 players total.

3. Children should be made abstract and just have a mere 0-1 children per household simulated while households would have 2-4 children animated and counted in statistics (just not becoming agents).

  Edited April 13, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[Dewm 177]

1. With the decreased population density, I have yet to reach 200,000 sims in my new region using CAM, NAM, and SPAM with all cities being 2x2km.

2. EA/Maxis stated that you can play a multiplayer region with up to 16 players total.

3. Children should be made abstract and just have a mere 0-1 children per household simulated while households would have 2-4 children animated and counted in statistics (just not becoming agents).

Yeah I don't know how the plan on handling children, I would ASSUME (we all know what that means) that they would be agents going to school and what-not, just like everything else.

[Mark Waybill 242]

I'd abstract all non active agents, i.e all non workers, if we're going to have Sims living for a day and all that nonsense to save power. So retired people, children, housewives (not sure if that's pc anymore, but unemployed people and scholars would also be housebound) etc could be abstracted.

However they say we see what they sim. If Sim families don't exist I'd argue that if we see children running around parks and at schools and they never grow up, that we're seeing something that isn't essential, that is technically purely cosmetic and that doesn't actually contribute to the simulation. If simchildren and simretirees do exist then the whole Sims living for one day thing seems silly as they can't be born retired or grown up.

[Mootilda 76]

If simchildren and simretirees do exist then the whole Sims living for one day thing seems silly as they can't be born retired or grown up.

Perhaps not, but they can be created as retired or grown up.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

OK, the city with the biggest population in my new region is Mezaton Alpha. Here are the stats from Region View:

Residential Population: 183,129

Commercial Jobs: 77,162

Industrial Jobs (all Hight Tech): 45,039

I used the CAM for lower population density (higher stage buildings were not downloaded so the biggest residential apartments are a few stage 8, 9, 10 default/stock buildings altered by the CAM).

Nevermind, I proved myself wrong:

Residential Pop: 207k

https://community.simtropolis.com/journals/3482-mezaton-regional-experiments-2012/

  Edited April 17, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[meowza 230]

Rumor says the game's maximum population density would match Manila's 43,079/km² - currently the most densely populated city in the world.

So if our numbers are correct, 200k people on a single 2km x 2km boxwould now make more sense.

[cloudysky234 1]

I thought I heard in a video that the number of agents will be limited to a "few thousand". Will this mean that we won't see large cities anymore?

And why would they make such small maps? 2km by 2km is rather tiny.

  Edited June 25, 2012 by CaptCity  
Post moved and merged.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

They make small city tiles equivalent to districts because they want to emphasize you making a multiplayer city, I think...

[alexbill 77]

I thought I heard in a video that the number of agents will be limited to a "few thousand". Will this mean that we won't see large cities anymore?

Don't take everything it was seriously and rigidly marked at that position. They could have said that without thinking. We WILL HAVE LARGE CITIES.

As we say in Brazil , 'don't take everything to the feet of the letter".

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I heard the limit was a few hundred thousand.

[Azurespecter 506]

Remember also that Glassbox will be tracking regional agents, such as workers, resources, pollution, and crime. This could be a reason for limiting the city-size and population.

Even for an advanced system like glassbox, it would be hard to track hundreds of thousands of agents in one city in addition to the potential thousands of regional agents. 200k per city is pretty good for me, and I'm also tending to think that its not a population cap, but rather a visually trackable 1:1 cap.

[skyjuice 12]

Well, I think that if they overflow the population limit the simulation will just go statistical. How long does it take you to get to 200,000 Sims in Sc4? I haven't had a city of that size in some time because I am doing rural stuff.

In SC4 i had 350k ppl. i would love to have much more to see what aim capable of, 350000ppl wasnt easy, but id like a 7 million ppl city if possible. Maybe not sure how it wld work in a game lite Sim City though

[andreharv 1,197]

Well the population density issues seem fine to me. I mean someone find a 2km by 2km city with more than 200,000 people in it. I am just hoping beyond home that this game will support or at least be modded to support larger city areas and more than 16 maps (4 maps by 4 maps presumably) per region.