Altering lot statistics

[SimCoug 5,973]

Basically I am thinking about changing the number of residents in Mattb325's great houses. They are great looking houses, but I find they have way too many sims compared to similar maxis houses. I've played around a little with the PIM and I am already frustrated - so frustrated that I've looked around and found a few different tools that may help (SC4PIM and the iLive LEprop) My question is, what is the simplest way to do this without getting too bogged down in learning a new program.

[Mister Giggles 310]

Reading/trial and error is required to use these tools. There is no muffin button when it comes to modding SC4, I'm afraid.

SC4PIM will do exactly what you want, but as you've experienced it's a very complex tool. It does come with an extensive manual, however, which makes its learning curve a little less steep. I personally recommend it for finely tuning a building's parameters.

iLives Reader will also accomplish what you want, but it's not an automated process like the X-Tool. A basic manual is located here:

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/files/file/21372-the-reader-beginners-guide/

I've never used iLive LEprop, so I'm not sure what it can, and cannot do.

  Edited February 13, 2012 by Mister Giggles  

[simplybatman 1]

Just find it in your plug in manger,they will be in the residential category and change the capacity satisfied value. Double click it to bring up its stat file,there are 2 numbers in that bit. For Low Wealth Residential there is a number 4112,Medium wealth is 4128 and High Wealth is 4144,dont change that,its a demand ID as it will tell you if you in the info bar down the bottom. Its pretty self explanatory. Change the second number and click apply then OK and your done.

You can change the plop cost,monthly cost,pollution and garbage values and all that in there easily with only the PIM. It is as simple as that. Not sure what will happen to houses that are already in the game if you do that though.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Just find it in your plug in manger,they will be in the residential category and change the capacity satisfied value. Double click it to bring up its stat file,there are 2 numbers in that bit. For Low Wealth Residential there is a number 4112,Medium wealth is 4128 and High Wealth is 4144,dont change that,its a demand ID as it will tell you if you in the info bar down the bottom. Its pretty self explanatory. Change the second number and click apply then OK and your done.

You can change the plop cost,monthly cost,pollution and garbage values and all that in there easily with only the PIM. It is as simple as that. Not sure what will happen to houses that are already in the game if you do that though.

Does this work if you don't have a free-standing .sc4desc file?

[Mister Giggles 310]

Not sure what will happen to houses that are already in the game if you do that though.

Capacity will act unusually if you change it for already-existing buildings, but there is no significant negative impact on the simulation that I have noticed. Bulldozing/starting fresh is still the best idea.

Does this work if you don't have a free-standing .sc4desc file?

Altering things with PIM? Yeah.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I would use SC4Tool for that purpose. It's the most self-explanatory and graphic of these tools, and if all you want to do is enter a new occupant number (in decimal format, preferably), this tool is best suited IMO.

[SimCoug 5,973]

Thanks everybody, now I just have to get the nerve to sit down and change all the lots.

[Equinox 1,209]

How does the game engine determine the desirability of a building? I always assumed it was a balancing act of demand in the city versus demand satisfied by the particular building, but is this compared to the lot size, or...? How exactly does this all work out for growables?

Also, just can't resist: UW grad says "Hello!"

[goodyou 0]

Just find it in your plug in manger,they will be in the residential category and change the capacity satisfied value. Double click it to bring up its stat file,there are 2 numbers in that bit. For Low Wealth Residential there is a number 4112

[T Wrecks 10,209]

How does the game engine determine the desirability of a building? I always assumed it was a balancing act of demand in the city versus demand satisfied by the particular building, but is this compared to the lot size, or...? How exactly does this all work out for growables?

Well, I assume that with "desirability of a building" you mean the probability that it grows?

TBH, there are some quirks in that mechanism that I simply don't understand. In general, I guess the determining factor is density (demand satisfied per tile, as possible with the given stage/lot size/density and if lot desirability permits), but then again I have some rowhouses with a large occupant number that rarely grow at all, whereas others on the same stage and with a similar occupant number grow like weed.

The biggest mystery (to me at least) is farming. I have several fields, all with absolutely identical stats and connections to one and the same parent cohort - yet their growth behaviour is radically different.

Maybe a person with more insight into these matters could help. Tage (RippleJet) on SC4D might know something about this.

[Equinox 1,209]

Then, methinks this Tage/RippleJet should come here and lend some insights!

Also thanks. I was thinking it might even be as complex as the game looking at the physical size of the model on the lot and then determining its "efficiency" or something, but really, I have no idea. And yes, farm behavior is totally baffling, I'm not unconvinced that it's 90% random number generator.

[Mister Giggles 310]

As RippleJet noticed during the CAM 2.0 testing, farms do not act in a way the stage numbers would demand. Stage 1 farms will still grow somewhat commonly even if their chances of growing are less than 1%. This indicates another function is involved in the process that we are unaware of.

I have noticed the following over the last few years:

a: The larger the lot size, the more difficult the lot is to grow absolutely. A 16x4 will be much harder to grow than 4 4x4 lots, EVEN IF the lot in question is LOWER stage than the 4x4 lots (This can occur with CAM). 15x15 and larger lots are almost impossible to grow.

b: This problem doesn't occur until the lot is larger than 6x6. Until then, growth behavior is as expected.

c: Commercial services are less vulnerable to this problem than residential, but it is still noticeable. This may be due to the fact that they have far smaller occupancy numbers overall.

d: Occasionally, abnormally large lots will spring up like weeds. These incidents are sporadic, unpredictable, and I've found no reliable way to force them even when the below is taken into consideration.

e: The "growth simulator" has a priority for what gets grown assuming desirability and demand factors are relatively high:

High priority is given to residentials. Of the three wealth types, the game will focus on high wealth first, then medium wealth, then finally low wealth.

Medium priority is given to commercials. Of these, high wealth commercial services seem to have the highest priority, followed by high wealth commercial businesses. I've not extensively tested the lower wealths of these two occupancy types, but I have no reason to believe they function differently.

Low priority is given to industries, with high tech having the highest priority, followed by manufacturing, and then dirty.

f: The game will ignore checks for growing a certain occupancy type of building when demand is at/below 0. This can be useful for focusing the game on another occupancy type.

My conclusion, based on a and b, is that there is a hardcoded behavior in the "growth simulator" that ceases to function correctly when it has to deal with a lot over a 6x6 size when it isn't given an opportunity to split the lot up.

This behavior is very likely the reason the Maxis lot program can't normally make lots over 6x6 in size.

  Edited February 17, 2012 by Mister Giggles  

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Thanks for that long and interesting read there, Mr. Giggles - that's a +1 from me.

I'm going to address some aspects, but first...

Then, methinks this Tage/RippleJet should come here and lend some insights!

There's that thing about the mountain and Mohammed, and the question is who is the mountain and who is Mohammed...

And yes, farm behavior is totally baffling, I'm not unconvinced that it's 90% random number generator.

Well, I could live with a random number generator, since that would mean that any farm may appear. However, the fact that some farms grow like weed, whereas others hardly (if ever!) show up despite them all sharing identical lot sizes, stages, slope settings, parent cohorts, and stats (up to the last digit) clearly speaks against pure randomness. I think there is a system, but it is unknown to me, so I can't influence it.

---------

As for the priority system, that sounds sensible. It would make sense for the game to proceed like this:

1) Check if there's demand for the highest priority class. No demand, no growth => move to next class. If demand,...

2) Check for lots with suitable desirability values. If desrability too low => no growth. If desirability suitable...

3) Check for the building that fits on the given lot and best satisfies the demand.

Your comments about growing larger lots are interesting. However, I wonder whether this is due to the particular size/shape of the lot. For example, if you have a 16x4 lot, then in most cases there is just one building available for it. On the other hand, there will be a bazillion of 2x4, 3x4, and 4x4 buildings (mostly 4x4), AND four 4x4 buildings next to another are likely to hold far more occupants than a single 16x4 - not least because of the occupant limits in vanilla SC4 (i.e. non-CAM). If I had skyrocketing demand to fill and the choice between one 16x4 with 7,500 occupants (that's pretty near to the limit) or four 4x4's with 5,000 occupants each, well... easy choice, isn't it?

That's why I have moved to making mega-lots deeper instead of wider - in this example, 4x16 instead of 16x4. (hoping that it helps)

[goodyou 0]

Thanks everybody..

[SimCoug 5,973]

Equinox

Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:04 PM

Also, just can't resist: UW grad says "Hello!"

A Husky! Oh dear. I'll let this go since you seem to know your way around simcity

T Wrecks

Posted 16 February 2012 - 08:55 AM

Equinox, on 15 February 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

How does the game engine determine the desirability of a building? I always assumed it was a balancing act of demand in the city versus demand satisfied by the particular building, but is this compared to the lot size, or...? How exactly does this all work out for growables?

Well, I assume that with "desirability of a building" you mean the probability that it grows?

TBH, there are some quirks in that mechanism that I simply don't understand. In general, I guess the determining factor is density (demand satisfied per tile, as possible with the given stage/lot size/density and if lot desirability permits), but then again I have some rowhouses with a large occupant number that rarely grow at all, whereas others on the same stage and with a similar occupant number grow like weed.

This was basically the reason for my post in the first place - It seems like Mattb325's houses grow like crazy and I assume it was because the occupancy for his houses was much higher than Maxis houses (by a factor of 3 or more). I've just read through the SC4Tool manual and I'm going to give it a go. If I notice any difference in the growth of Mattb's houses compared to before I will report back here. Like you T Wrecks, it seems like all else being equal (lot size, zone type, etc) I would assume that if the simulator has to choose between a lot that satisfies 50 R$$ compared to a maxis lot of 15 R$$, it would go with the higher occupancy building.

As for farms - who knows.

I try and grow all my lots, so I have run into the problem of trying to grow 16x4 (and other large size) lots and I think that if the game can break down the zone easily (16x4 can be broken down into many different size lots - 2x4, 3x4, 4x4 etc) then it will do so, rather than build the large size. Again, I think T Wrecks is right - If a lot is larger than 4 zones deep, it makes it more likely to be built. For example, PEG's mountain house set is all 5 tiles deep, and they grow every time I use them. And one of Simgoobers shopping centers is 16x7, and I never had any problem getting that to grow.