9/11 Anniversary Encore

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

BBC and CBC are both reporting an attempt to be made on the U.S. on Sunday.

I hope if this is true that the perps are apprehended in advance. I can find no forgiveness in my soul for them, and wish them a visit to Iblis.

[Titanicbuff 1,262]

BBC and CBC are both reporting an attempt to be made on the U.S. on Sunday.

I hope if this is true that the perps are apprehended in advance. I can find no forgiveness in my soul for them, and wish them a visit to Iblis.

My local news station NBC-KOAA 5 in Colorado Springs will be covering memorial services all day.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

At least one of the CBC channels up here will cover the full ceremonial live, plus other news that day. Right now the CBC Newsnet feed is full of it.

[Duke87 1,070]

Ugh, fear hype.

Something could happen anywhere, anytime. But it is no more likely to happen this weekend than any other time this year, or last year, or next year. This is silly.

[RipRap 4,400]

Statement by Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano Urging Public Vigilance

Release Date: September 9, 2011

For Immediate Release

Office of the Press Secretary

Contact: 202-282-8010

“As we head into the 9/11 anniversary weekend, we continue to urge the American public to be vigilant and report any suspicious activity to law enforcement authorities. Simply put, if you see something, say something. We take all threat reporting, including the recent specific, credible but unconfirmed threat information, seriously. We continue to be in close contact with our federal, state and local law enforcement partners to ensure that all steps necessary to mitigate any threats are taken. Our security posture includes a number of measures both seen and unseen and we will continue to respond appropriately to protect the American people from an evolving threat picture both in the coming days and beyond. Homeland security is a shared responsibility, and everyone plays an important role in helping to keep our communities safe and secure.”

http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/releases/20110909-napolitano-urging-public-vigilance.shtm

[Alejandro24 575]

Azteca Noticias and Noticieros Televisa are covering the anniversary of the 9/11 from some days ago (11/09 or 11-S for us, because the difference of dates notation). I suppose they will be covering the memorials, as they covered all the event when it happened. Also the newspaper El Informador have a special section about the 11-S with personal experiences from the people.

[sneakeypete 16]

Someone mentioned that they'd found plans relating to attacks on this date in Bin Ladens compound. I liken it to finding paperwork in a bank about money..

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

I wish I could see the memorial in RL, but that won't be for several more years, when i am in college and on my own... Anyways, I heard that a attack somewhere on the US could possibly happen on Sunday, which I could see possible because of the anniversity.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

All in all, it could be anywhere. I am not sure the terrorists actually know the difference between any city on the continent as opposed to only those that are icons in the U.S. They could easily hit Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Seattle, L.A., San Francisco, or even Denver.

While the terror alert has been cranked up, isn't that the name of the game? We could all go broke pouring billions into threats, after all there has been one wolf already. In Canada, we have apprehended several (apparently home-grown) plots and disposed of them.

They are barbarians at the gate and we continue to treat them in a civilized manner. This reflects well on us, but the overblown outpouring of money on this isn't showing much for the effort.

The most reprehensible thing in all this is that the U.S. has yet another police agency. Too many bureaucrats, and not enough cops, yet too many.

[Alejandro24 575]

Around this topic, I found many things, like this:

In an article about the impact of the 11-S in the cinema says that lost footage of Lilo and Stitch were changed because the similitude with the event. There are another cases like this in the cinema.

Also, looking in youtube I've found this too:

This video is about a live transmission of TV-Azteca (Canal 13) when the attacks happened.

Well, more than remember the event, why not to reflect about its impact in the society.

EDIT I (More reflect): sorry if this videos maybe awake some senses inside, but It is part of the remembrance. Things like this nobody deserve it, but when it happens is more better to remember and to feel than to forget and repeat again.

  Edited September 10, 2011 by Alejandro24  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ Amen.

History and remembrance are very important. If we don't remember the past, we will be surprised when it repeats.

Thinking about the way things have changed since 9/11, we have become a less naive society, and it has been driven home that we are not immune to attack just because we have oceans on all sides. Unfortunately, the knee-jerk reaction by some ignorant legislators in the U.S. pointed fingers at Canada while we were busy succoring all those orphans of the sky created by the no-fly situation. If conclusions were a stick out the window, these guys would leap to their deaths which, perhaps, would not be a bad idea.

Parochialism is still rife in the U.S. One would have thought that there would be more enlightenment in view of the change that is really necessary in the world view now that the global village has chucked a spear at them, but the general attitude of the man on the street is just as small minded as before. Most of them haven't the least idea that Canada is:

1. An ally. We share in a lot of defense things. Notably the North American Air Defense program (NORAD). We watch the north pole and look after the North West Passage. We have at least one nuclear powered ice-breaker.
2. A very large trading partner. We supply most of the oil used in the northern states, and a lot of the natural resources as well.
3. Had an undefended border for a couple of centuries until congress slammed the door with the Homeland Security thing. Now, one needs a passport to get back into the United States even if one is an American citizen and we need one to go there. Even during World War II, all I needed was a border crossing card with my photo on it. I still have it. I was five years old at the time.
4. Friendly. We are a good place to come to spend a holiday. We have everything from fancy resorts to arctic excursions. We have some of the best untouched wilderness excursions you can imagine, and National Parks are abundant. We only lack tropical beaches but we have lots of wilderness lakes and very good fishing and hunting. Many of these lakes are only accessible by air.
5. Cultured. Currently, the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF) is on with many Hollywood personalities visiting. This is only one event, and there are many throughout the year including the Shakespearean Festival at Stratford, the Shaw Festival at Niagara-On-the-Lake, the Calgary Stampede, Frontier Days in Edmonton, etc. Our cities offer a wide range of arts and sciences activities and museums, concert halls, theaters (live, that is), and major sports events. Some of our cities are polyglot. For example, Toronto has newspapers published in over 100 languages. But mostly, we are bilingual English and French by law. Some of us are fluent in other languages as well.

Oh, yes, and we've just declared September 11 to be a National Day of Service in perpetuity -- by federal executive order. This is in memory of all the Canadians who rescued and housed the American orphans of the sky on both coasts.

[Alejandro24 575]

I was reading more about this, something related about the posibility about another attack. Also the posibility of Mexico to being attacked by Al-Qaeda or something of the Jihad. The position of Mexico with United States is too similar like the position of Canada, just in an inverse way -fron south to north-, so the posibilities of an attack are medium or high, specially oil sources, industries, touristic places or mall centers and transports.

Mexico and Canada could be two targets of collateral damage as Spain (11-M) and Great Britain (07-J), but not by political issues, because both countries have important ties with United States in all the ways and forms.

But more than the posibility of another attack, I really like the new project of the WTC in New York, looks vanguard, modern and strongest than its predecessors.

I've founded another video, of the interruption of transmissions of MTv LA because the attack:

  Edited September 10, 2011 by Alejandro24  

[TekindusT 3,809]

Mexico and Canada could be two targets of collateral damage as Spain (11-M) and Great Britain (07-J), but not by political issues, because both countries have important ties with United States in all the ways and forms.

Here we all remember this pic after all... This was in 2003.

Madrid and London were attacked one and two years later respectively. The excuse weren't the ties with the US, was its presence in Irak. Aznar sent happily the army to Irak knowing that most of the Spanish population was against this decision.

In March 10th 2004, the conservative PP leaded by Aznar leaded the polls. The attack happened in March 11th and the elections held in March 14th were clearly won by the socialdemocrat PSOE. You can clearly see that the excuse for these attacks was punishing the PP for entering in Irak, and terrorists needed more than 200 innocent lives to do this.

  Edited September 10, 2011 by TekindusT  

[Alejandro24 575]

Mexico and Canada could be two targets of collateral damage as Spain (11-M) and Great Britain (07-J), but not by political issues, because both countries have important ties with United States in all the ways and forms.

...

Madrid and London were attacked one and two years later respectively. The excuse weren't the ties with the US, was its presence in Irak. Aznar sent happily the army to Irak knowing that most of the Spanish population was against this decision.

...

Militar prescence in Irak, a war started by the United States. For they, the terrorists, is a tie, a relation, so it must be attacked. Maybe isn't a tie like the ties of Canada and Mexico -that involves economical, political, militar and cultural ways-, but its something. Is just to get inside their minds.

[Meg 368]

Oh, yes, and we've just declared September 11 to be a National Day of Service in perpetuity -- by federal executive order. This is in memory of all the Canadians who rescued and housed the American orphans of the sky on both coasts.

A group that has been sadly overlooked. Many people are even not aware of the Canadians' contribution that week. [link]

Sometime between the first plane and the fourth, an order was given for all planes to land as soon as possible wherever they could find a landing strip. Several hundred planes wound up in Canada. This meant that thousands of passengers could not get to their destination and were dumped into Canada's lap instead.

By all accounts, the Canadian people did a wonderful job of taking care of everyone. It was not unlike having thousands of hurricane evacuees suddenly show up at your doorstep. The Canadians did all they could to provide food and shelter for everyone. As I recall, it was nearly a week before those displaced passengers were allowed to get back on the planes and continue to their destinations.

Thank you, Canada, for providing help when we needed it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Thanks for the Link, Meg.

We are all brothers on this continent, as can be seen from Alejandro's post, and are in the same boat.

[drillman42 4]

Saw this on the National yesterday, and found it today. Great perspective on a great story.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2011/09/10/nl-rex-murphy-gift-gander-video.html

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Saw this on the National yesterday, and found it today. Great perspective on a great story.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...nder-video.html

Yes, I saw it when it was broadcast. I always thought Rex was chained to a desk in Ottawa. Sending the steel was a very beautiful gesture. Many new friendships were forged.

[Alejandro24 575]

I'm currently watching some specials about this. And its horrible the consequences on the people who survived. Again, nobody deserves this kind of events.

But I have many questions in my mind. Obviusly I can answer myself, but I know who can answer them: the US-Americans. Have stopped to think why happened? More than never forget, what learned about this? Have thinked about the consequences in the world? What are your, United States, conslusions as society and nation?

[Meg 368]

I'm currently watching some specials about this. And its horrible the consequences on the people who survived. Again, nobody deserves this kind of events.

But I have many questions in my mind. Obviusly I can answer myself, but I know who can answer them: the US-Americans. Have stopped to think why happened? More than never forget, what learned about this? Have thinked about the consequences in the world? What are your, United States, conslusions as society and nation?

Well, those are some excellent questions. and obviously ones that are not easily answered.

On a very basic level, one problem is a major lack of understanding and communication between the United States and areas in the Middle East. I'm not just talking about the countries themselves; I'm talking about what US citizens know about that area of the world and about what the US government has been doing over there for the past several decades.

When I was in school, I was taught nothing about the Middle East. and I mean nothing. We talked about Europe and Latin America. Asia was only mentioned in current events (the Vietnam war was going on). But the Middle East was not mentioned. and that wasn't just where I went to school; it was the mindset at the time.

My parents still have an 1968 version of the World Book encyclopedia. I recently used it to look up time zones. There is a nice explanation of time zones and a table with major cities and what time zone they are in. None of the cities are in the Middle East. That area might as well have been a black hole that didn't exist.

But, contrary to what we were hearing, it did exist. and what was happening there? Someone more knowledgeable than I could write a book about "propping up dictators". But I do know that Americans as a whole know very little about it. and people "over there" probably know a lot more and resent it, to put it mildly.

and it's not just that we don't know all that was going on over there. Apparently 92% of Afghans have never heard of 9/11. [link]

I'm a big fan of education. I think the first step to dealing with a problem is understanding what it is. and, in many cases, I believe we have a lot to learn.

[krbe 193]

1968 was just a few years after UAE, a collection of fishery villages, paved their first streets. Apart from decolonising (Africa is still more interesting in that respect) I can't really think of anything interesting than the wars in Israel at that time. The sixties were a bit of a paradigm shift in the US and Western Europe; which I believe the recent years have been too (for us Westerners). And during those times you go around with a lowered head and are more interested in your own navel and its content, than what's really happening around you, leaving foreign engagement / policy to those select few trying to make sense of the outside world so it'll fit on the inside.

While the West and its rulers all ran around screaming, believing that a few ragged men without shaving equipment would bring an abrupt end to the world as we know it, China woke up from her nap, with a host of other countries you seldom hear about (Thailand? Malaysia? Angola?) following in her footsteps. The intersting thing is, that many of these countries are battling the same Islamic terrorism problems as we've just recently faced.

And yes, Angola, that former Portuguese colony. In 2006, 156 visas were issued to Portuguese. Four years later, that number was 23,787 -- many working for one of the 3,000 Portuguese companies now working in this healthily growing market.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

After about 1500 A.D. nobody gave much of a hoot about northern Africa and the Middle East. The Moorish Empire had been chucked out of Europe (Spain), and it was pretty decadent by then. The only trade with the Arabs was for slaves. Who really cared about a bunch of camel cowboys running around in the Arabian desert? The whole area was pretty primitive, and the European countries were interested only in colonies from which they could grab wealth.

By the time of the Renaissance, the colonial business was in full swing. We had Spanish America, Portuguese Africa, German Africa, British Africa (and the rest of the Empire building up), Portuguese Goa, etc. Essentially a bunch of European countries raping the wealth of the rest of the world. Lots of wars culminating in the world conflicts of the twentieth century.

After WW II the various allies had control of a lot of the middle east as UN Trust Territories, and we all know what happened then.

Turned out there was rather a lot of petroleum under all those barren sands. The house of ibn Saud were a bunch of camel drivers until they managed to defeat the other tribes to become the ruling family sometime in the 1920s. Since the western world wasn't much interested in anything but oil from these countries we didn't notice that there were getting to a rather large number of satraps there.

Somewhere in there it occurred to the newly emerged ruling houses of the middle east that the west was taking them for a ride and OPEC was formed. The price of crude jumped quite a bit from the $2 U.S. per barrel at that time, and put paid to the western potlatch. Cheap energy disappeared overnight. It has taken over half a century for the western world to finally face up to the fact that things cannot continue as they are. It has been calculated that there is a limit to oil, and it will only get more expensive as scarcity cuts in. We have to modify all our wasteful habits and become more frugal, and start working on alternate energy sources

So what do we have now? A set of ruling clans in the middle east and a vast impoverished peasantry. For most of these people the only entertainment is sex, and they turned out to be very good at it. A burgeoning population of unwashed and uneducated people are prey to religion, and Islam has been there for nearly 1500 years and the initially sort-of Jewish peoples have embraced it, even during their golden period of the Moorish Empire. The Ottoman Turks didn't improve things, and after WW I, things went from bad to worse as that empire broke up. The Hitler bunch found very fertile ground among the sons of Ishmael, who disliked the legitimate sons on Abraham intensely already. The Arabs are not anti-semitic. How can they be, they are Semites. But they have hated Jews for about 5000 years.

Up to 1948 the whole of the middle east was occupied by Islamic peoples, mostly of Arab extraction when out of the blue the conquering UN decided to implement the utterly foolish Balfour Declaration of 1917 and dropped the borders of Israel on Palestine. Who cared if the people there objected? So here we are, sixty-three years later.

The downtrodden Islamic poor majority are ripe for leadership, and the mechanism for the large Shi'ia sect is the Imams in the mosques. Sunni Islam doesn't have Imams, but scholars similar to Jewish Rabbis. So the sons of Ali now have a set of respected leaders in their mosques, and when these become radicalized against their oppressors, seen to be the western powers who haven't done them any favors lately, the result is the booting out of western supported rulers like the Shah of Iran, and their replacement by more radical and west-hating people. OPEC may have to deal with us, but be assured that, video clips not withstanding, there is no love lost.

Now we have opportunists, like the wealthy Sunni Osama bin Laden, who see an opportunity to aggrandize themselves at the expense of the west. These people see only profit and upwards mobility for themselves by convincing ignorant, illiterate Islamic peasants to blow themselves up in the name of Allah. They extract convenient partial suras from the Koran to suit their purpose, and radicalize these poor saps into thinking that jihad is good and dying in jihad, even by suicide (explicitly forbidden by the Koran) will take them to the Islamic heaven with rivers of milk and honey and mobs of self-renewing virgins. The events of 9/11 are the culmination of this enormous bradzh in an attempt to take down the "oppressors". All Osama got for his trouble in the end was a meeting with Iblis, and not Allah.

The world now has to pick up the pieces and to make matters worse, the natural cycle of ice ages is currently warming up the earth in preparation for the next one. So we have natural events with which to cope while we also try to pacify the Islamic world and learn to live in peace world-wide. What will become of us, only the next century or so will tell.

[Meg 368]

A key piece of history that we didn't learn from: the oil embargo in the mid-70s.

The Arab Oil Embargo of 1973-74

Brian Trumbore

President/Editor, StocksandNews.com

With the recent turmoil in the Middle East, there has been increased talk of the possibility for an Arab oil embargo against the U.S. and other supporters of Israel. While for various reasons I don't currently believe this will come to pass, it is a good time to take another look at the embargo of 1973-74. Following is a piece I first did back on July, 2000 in this spot. I have added a few minor points, otherwise, it is as originally written.

-----

Before there was an OPEC (the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries), the great oil companies of the West ruled the roost. Oil is the lifeblood of the industrialized nations. It is used in planes, cars, tanks, skyscrapers, fertilizer, drugs and synthetics. Yet back before the days of OPEC, the great oil companies often retained 65% or more of the revenue from a product that was produced on someone else's property. Then in 1960, many of the oil producing nations, from both the Middle East and elsewhere, formed a cartel to protect their interests.

[Currently, OPEC is comprised of Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela. Large non-OPEC producers such as Mexico, Norway and Russia sometimes go along with the cartel position of the day.]

The goal of OPEC was to present a common front in negotiations with the giant oil companies, which themselves worked closely together. OPEC set the stage for a new process in which the producer nations would eventually take over the functions of the companies, at least in production, and retain much more of the revenues. But OPEC really had little impact from its founding in 1960 until 1973. Then all hell broke loose.

In 1973, the U.S. and the Western world were in the midst of an inflationary spiral. The world had become highly vulnerable to commodity cartels, as twenty years of prosperity and accelerating population growth had created heavy demand for raw materials. In the U.S., consumer prices were rising at an 8.5% clip, while inflation rates in other nations were often much higher. The demand for Middle Eastern oil had been increasing throughout the industrialized world and the needs of these countries grew far faster than production. OPEC was growing stronger and it was determined to increase its share of the profits.

President Nixon, as part of his ill-fated price control program, had slapped controls on oil in March 1973. The U.S., which had been self-sufficient in energy as recently as 1950, was now importing some 35% of its energy needs. U.S. petroleum reserves were nearly gone. Governments, corporations and individuals were entirely unprepared for what would happen next.

On October 6, 1973, the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, Egyptian forces attacked Israel from across the Suez Canal, while at the same time Syrian troops were flooding the Golan Heights in a surprise offensive. After early losses, Israeli counterattacks quickly pushed into Syrian territory in the north, as troops outflanked the Egyptian army in the south. Israel, with help from the U.S., succeeded in reversing the Arab gains and a cease-fire was concluded in November. But on October 17, OPEC struck back against the West by imposing an oil embargo on the U.S., while increasing prices by 70% to America's Western European allies. Overnight, the price of a barrel of oil to these nations rose from $3 to $5.11. [in January 1974, they raised it further to $11.65.] The U.S. and the Netherlands, in particular, were singled out for their support of Israel in the war.

When OPEC announced the sharp price rise, the shock waves were immediate. Industrial democracies, accustomed to uninterrupted sources of cheap, imported oil, were suddenly at the mercy of a modern Arab nationalism, standing up to American oil companies that had once held their countries in a vise grip. Many of these "new" Arabs were Harvard educated and familiar with the ways of the West, and to many Americans it was impossible to understand how their standard of living was now being held hostage to obscure border clashes in strange parts of the world.

The embargo in the U.S. came at a time when 85% of American workers drove to their places of employment each day. Suddenly, President Nixon had to set the nation on a course of voluntary rationing. He called upon homeowners to turn down their thermostats and for companies to trim work hours. Gas stations were asked to hold their sales to a max of ten gallons per customer.

In the month of November 1973, Nixon proposed an extension of Daylight Savings Time and a total ban on the sale of gasoline on Sunday's. [both were later approved by Congress.] But the biggest legislative initiative was the approval by Congress on November 13 of a Trans-Alaskan oil pipeline, designed to supply 2,000,000 barrels of oil a day. [This was completed in 1977. See any parallels to today's fight over the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?]

A severe recession hit much of the Western world, including the U.S., and as gasoline lines snaked their way around city blocks and tempers flared (the price at the pump had risen from 30 cents a gallon to about $1.20 at the height of the crisis), conspiracy theories abounded. The rumor with the widest circulation had the whole crisis as being contrived by the major oil importers who were supposedly secretly raking in the profits. New York Harbor was really full of tankers loaded with oil, in no hurry to dock, according to the Oliver Stone types. Sorry, folks, it was just our own stupidity that allowed us to be so used and abused.

How did Wall Street respond? Well, as you might imagine shares in oil stocks performed well as profits soared, but the rest of the market swooned 15% between 10/17/73 and the end of November. [The Dow Jones fell from 962 to 822.] This ended up being the middle of the great bear market that would see the Dow go from its 1/11/73 high of 1051 to 577 by 12/6/74, a whopping 45% decline over nearly two years.

As for the embargo, the Arabs lifted it against the U.S. on March 18, 1974. The Dow then stood at 874.

I remember these days well. Getting a tank of gas involved getting up at 5:00 a.m. to go sit in line at the gas station, waiting for it to open. People with even numbered license plates were only supposed to go to the gas station on even numbered days. Odd numbered license plates went on odd numbered days.

This went on for a while and then it suddenly stopped. Why? What was happening behind the scenes that changed things? Why did life continue on as usual afterward? Why wasn't this a wake-up call to change our ways and figure out how to not be dependent on oil?

I do not know those answers. I do suspect that the problem over there was "taken care of" in a way that convinced the powers-that-be that we didn't need to worry about what happened in that area of the world.

As the article says "to many Americans it was impossible to understand how their standard of living was now being held hostage to obscure border clashes in strange parts of the world." We did not learn then. I believe we do not know now.

On some level, I suspect that 9/11 was a small group of people stomping their feet saying "you WILL pay attention to us and what we want". and, for the most part, our response still is "sell us your oil, then shut up and go away".

[Terring 6,473]

One of the most bad things about 9/11 happened here in Greece, having many "anti-Americanists" celebrating the death of innocent people! This is sick, even the animals doesn't celebrate with somebody's pain.

Never forget - Never again

[Ocram's Razr 963]

That day was not very important at the time. My grandfather died and I turned 10 the previous month. 3rd grade was very eventful and I never knew anyone from New York so it did not change anything in my life.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Explosion at French Nuclear waste facility.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/09/12/france.nuclear/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Most likely this was an accident.

  Edited September 13, 2011 by Easy Bakes  

[Duke87 1,070]

On some level, I suspect that 9/11 was a small group of people stomping their feet saying "you WILL pay attention to us and what we want". and, for the most part, our response still is "sell us your oil, then shut up and go away".

The purpose of vandalism is often to get attention, yes. But the issue is more one of resentment. They've got problems, and we're the most convenient scapegoat. That's just the consequence of having so much international influence. You get blamed for everything.

[Alejandro24 575]

Today La Gaceta - Guadalajara's University Weekly Newspaper- have the 11-s in its front page and an article of about 4 pages, two more than the habitual, as principal article. And another articles related to the 11-S. You can read it here (All the edition, hompage)

[Meg 368]

The purpose of vandalism is often to get attention, yes. But the issue is more one of resentment. They've got problems, and we're the most convenient scapegoat. That's just the consequence of having so much international influence. You get blamed for everything.

True but I suspect it is more than that. Yes, they have problems but I imagine they want the rest of us to butt out and let them solve their problems themselves.

Think about it. How would we react if people from wherever were trying to tell us how to run our lives and had armed troops in our country? We would not take it well.

One issue that no one likes to talk about is making judgments that another culture is "wrong". Obviously that is subjective but it is at the crux of many conflicts.

Political correctness often gets in the way of stating that another culture is "wrong". and, in many cases, it should. On some level, Culture A's opinion of Culture B shouldn't matter. But there are many gray areas in here.

To me, the culture of "Toddlers and Tiaras" is wrong. [link] Children, especially young children, should not be dressed up to look like sexy adults. A four year old should not be wearing fake boobs. It is just creepy.

Obviously, not everyone agrees with me since the child beauty pageant business has been going on for a long time. But it totally eludes me as to why anyone would think this is okay. But I imagine that the people who think it's just dandy have no respect for my judgment and feel that I have no right to judge them.

Now, let's look at an issue on a more global scale. I recognize that as an American woman of my generation, I enjoy rights and privileges that are unprecedented in history. For example, when my mother was born, women were not allowed to vote or owe property. These days, such things are taken for granted.

I believe that every woman on the planet should have the same rights and privileges that I do. I happened to be born in the right place and time and good for me but I see no reason why the rest of the women on the planet should be treated differently.

Obviously, large chunks of the planet do not agree with that. and they probably wouldn't appreciate me telling them they are "wrong" for not agreeing with me. But, on some level, we are sending the message "You need to grow up and do things our way". That message usually isn't received well.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Meg, you and I are in agreement on Toddlers and Tiaras. It is disgusting. It also destroys the kids. I am sure very few survive with any kind of integrated personality.

As for the rights of women world-wide, it is a cultural matter and nothing we try to impose from without is going to change this. This kind of my way or the highway attitude is all over the UN, and that is probably the main reason that it can't do much.

I agree that many countries waste the human resource of their women by just using them as breeding stock. A lot of this is snap-back from about four millenia ago when the society was matriarchal. At the classical period of the Roman Empire, the women were effectively kept in purdah. Caesar's wife had to be a perfect Roman matron while Caesar whored around the country side. Caesar, by the way, was AC/DC and never fathered any children, probably not even Caesarion whom he allegedly sired on Cleopatra. The HBO program put that apocryphal story right in the main plot. Cleo would have done anything to capture Caesar. She really wasn't a nice lady, nor were any of the Ptolemies.

Male violence against women is a partial carry over from the above. It is only about 100 years since women did anything except bear and raise the kids.