Israel

[navyrules 1]

Can we please keep the Liberals vs. Conservatives out of this... I wanted to hear your comments on Israel not hear another argument about Conservatives vs. Liberals when all I need to do is turn on CNN or Fox... so please keep that out of here and continue it in the American Politics thread

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[navyrules 1]

I know, but just for future reference... leave it out

[mightygoose 92]

Certainly a new perspective on the formation of Israel.. blame the UK leave US out of it.

For the Price of a Barrel of Oil

Following in the footsteps of Chavez and Castro, Argentina and Brazil's regimes have declared that they recognize Abbas' Palestinian Authority "as a free and independent state within the borders defined in 1967". The Palestinian Authority is of course neither free nor independent. It's a dictatorship that refuses to hold free elections. Or any kind of elections at all. It has neither freedom of speech nor freedom of religion. Or any kind of freedom at all.

 

 

Nor is it independent. The Palestinian Authority is funded by the United States and the EU. It has no economy. The only notable employers are the Palestinian Authority itself (subsidized wholly by foreign donors), the UNRWA (subsidized wholly by foreign donors) and Israel. If Brazil and Argentina had declared that the Bronx was now a free and independent state, it would have more credibility, because the Bronx has more of a local economy and a higher standard of human rights, than Arafat's old Fatah gangsters do.

While everyone from the Obama Administration down to Thomas Friedman screams at Israel to give those senile terrorists their own state, they willfully refuse to see that Abbas, Fayad and the rest of the gang, can't even run the territory that they already have. Abbas whined last week, "I cannot be the president of a non-existent Authority as long as Israeli occupation of the West Bank continues."

But when Israel withdrew from Gaza, it turned over the territory to Abbas and the Palestinian Authority. Abbas and the PA couldn't control or police it. As a a result, Hamas took over Gaza. So while Abbas makes excuses about the "occupation", there are no Israelis in Gaza, yet he can't run it either. Despite American weapons and training, the PA's militias (their salaries paid for by American taxpayers) ran like rats from Hamas.

Israel had to launch emergency rescue operations to save Abbas' thugs, including one Jamal Abu Al-Rub, who wanted people to call him 'Hitler'. Jamal 'Hitler' was a murderer and a terrorist who won an election to the Palestinian parliament. But when Hamas marched in, 'Hitler' and all the little Hitlers cut and ran. Israel had to save many of Abbas' little Hitlers, who talked big when it came to killing Jews, but couldn't stand and fight.

Zakaria Zubeidi, Jenin chief of the Palestinian Authority's Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, stated that the loss of Gaza was the result of incompetence and corruption, or worse a fallback strategy by Abbas to be able to evict Hamas from the PA's parliament. That means either Abbas and his people were so incompetent that they couldn't police a region that Israel fully withdrew from. Or that Abbas chose to toss away Gaza, to prevent Hamas from politically challenging him.

Now if Abbas and the Palestinian Authority couldn't hang on to Gaza-- will they be able to hang on to any other territory that Israel withdraws from? And before Abbas demands part of Jerusalem or any other territory, shouldn't he be required to take control of Gaza first?

If you've given control of a region, and you lose control of that region, isn't reestablishing control of it a prerequisite to demanding any more territory?

Under Palestinian Authority rule, Gaza experienced a sewage flood that killed almost a dozen people. The terrorists who couldn't run the sewage system of a single Bedouin village a few years ago, now insist that they're ready and able to run half of one of the world's greatest cities. And the diplomats nod along and the newspaper columnists insist that they get Jerusalem at once. Why wait? The sewage floods of tomorrow begin with the surrenders of today.

And what is the moral basis for their claim to half of Jerusalem? Because in 1948, the armies of seven Arab-Muslim nations invaded Israel to try and destroy it. The Arab Legion, overseen by British officers, succeeded in seizing East Jerusalem and driving out its Jewish population. Jordan annexed East Jerusalem. Great Britain recognized their act of ethnic cleansing. Now Israel is being condemned for undoing that ethnic cleansing with its 1967 liberation and reunification of Jerusalem. Jews who live in East Jerusalem are denounced as "settlers", while the Arabs who destroyed the Jewish Quarter and seized Jewish homes are treated as the rightful residents.

The kleptocracies of Brazil's Lula da Silva and Argentina's Cristina Fernandez have officially recognized a Palestinian state on those ethnically cleansed borders. Their support for Abbas' kleptocracy is not surprising. Between Lula da Silva's affection for Iran's monstrous dictator Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Cristina Fernandez's indebtedness to Venezuelan left wing dictator Chavez, as well as the key role on foreign policy played by the very slimy Héctor Timerman, who was as comfortable supporting juntas, as he was working for Human Rights Watch-- this is a case of birds of a feather flocking together.

These decisions were not motivated by human rights, but by the growing shadow of Islam over Latin America.

Friendly ties between Israel and Latin-American countries were based on trade relationships and the formerly sizable Jewish population in some parts of Latin America. Since then political and economic chaos, particularly the left-wing and right-wing dictatorships, have managed to significantly reduce Latin America's Jewish population. Meanwhile the Arab and Muslim population of Latin America has kept on growing. Unlike Europe, Muslims aren't likely to take over through demographics alone, but they have taken over many commercial enterprises and come to play a very prominent role with politics, with numerous Arab presidents of Latin American countries. Trade with the Muslim world has eclipsed trade with Israel. And the latest wave of left-wing Latin American governments have taken Chavez's lead in forming close ties with Muslim dictatorships.

But as despicable as Lula de Silva and Fernandez may be, their behavior is not any fundamentally different than that of America and Europe. The Western support for a Palestinian state is not based on historical justice, because contrary to the nauseating dishwater poured out of every media outlet, there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. The name was used as a geographical designation by the Romans and the Greeks. It was never the name of a nation or an ethnic group. Nor does it affirm any cultural uniqueness, because again there is no such thing. The "Palestinian Arabs" are part of a regional network of families and tribes. Finally they are not ready for self-government. They have no economy or law and order. No civil rights and no justice system. Only a small corrupt clique of terrorists turned officials living off stolen American and EU money, who run everything and make all the rules.

So what then is the basis for this urgent incontinent need to create a Palestinian state? Because the Muslim world wants it. The Muslim world demands it. Not because it has any use for them. Kuwait ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs, with the approval of the Bush Administration after the Gulf War. Despite being mostly Palestinian itself, the Jordanian government is trying to get rid of as many as they can. But it's not about peace or the nationalism of a fictional people run by a terrorist organization that used to insist that Palestine is really Southern Syria, it's about conducting a war against Israel. A Palestinian state only has one purpose. The destruction of the region's one and only non-Muslim and non-Arab state.

Western governments don't think that way. Or at least not openly. But they are following the marching orders of kings, sheiks and princes that do. They may not play kissy face with Ahmadinejad the way Silvia de Lula does, but they play kissy face with the Saudi royal family, which is actually no better. After Saudi terrorists murdered 3,000 Americans, the United States government still insists on following Saudi orders to enforce its "peace process" on Israel. And Saudi shill Uncle Tom Friedman bellows in outraged fury at Israel for refusing to ban Jews from building homes in an area that is the Israeli equivalent of California, Texas and New Mexico.

Behind all the lies and anger, is the dark hand of Islam. The age old grip of Muslim bigotry and genocidal fury directed at an ancient minority that dared to proclaim its independence. The Muslim world is well on its way to destroying Lebanon's religious diversity. The entire Palestinian state project has nearly wiped out Israel's Christians. But its real target are the Jews. And from North to South America, and across the Atlantic, much of the world is all too eager to aid the genocidal aims of that policy. What the Muslim world could not gain through war, it intends to gain through the dirty hands of infidel politicians who will sell their civilization and their souls for the price of a greasy barrel of oil.

 

[kakado_to_save 514]

Let me tell you an opinon from us.... yes Israel... We think that we have the right to build in our country. Its like you would come to Ney york and say that you cant build in it. Jerusalem is the capital of israel and only israel. Americans and many other countries have a lot (!) of space.... somthing that we dont have... its like not building a half of New Jersey. We are somthing like the size New Jersey (vo a. Arabs can build in ther other 26 countries.. and if they dont..... they are in a proble.. Israel is one... one small only jewish country in the world.. so just think about what i said. Btw... the gaza war was ment to stop the rockets the terroriez cities..including my city!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Since you are living in Israel, what was on the site of Jerusalem at the time of Moses?

[Cobraroll 138]

Originally posted by: kakado_to_save

Jerusalem is the capital of israel and only israel.quote>

What happened to Tel Aviv?

Also, try to see this from a different perspective. Imagine that Israel for some reason was struck economically bankrupt, or something, and that Palestinians (or Egyptians, Syrians or whoever) invaded Israeli territory and declared it their own by the right of conquest. Then, they demolish some houses in, say, Ashdod (honestly, I don't know anyhting about Israeli geography, but I think Ashdod is in Israel, right?) and build their own there. After a while, they agree to give Tel Aviv and a few surrounding square kilometres back to the Israelites. How would you feel? If you were forced to move, and somebody from an underground militia asked you if you wanted to fight to get your homes back, what would you answer?

Start by realising that not all Palestinians are terrorists, stop building on disputed territory, and give the Palestinians some slack. If they don't have anything they feel they have to fight for, they will stop listening to the voices who call for war and uprising. Then perhaps some more sane people will be put in charge, and they will stop the bombing. I say what caused this mess is a lot of complex factors, but what keeps it going is that darn stubbornness of everybody and the tradition to solve problems with violence.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Cobraroll

Originally posted by: kakado_to_save

Jerusalem is the capital of israel and only israel.quote>

What happened to Tel Aviv?

quote>

The official capital was moved to Jerusalem some time ago.  I don't know if there is anything special about Tel Aviv anymore.

[Cobraroll 138]

^*sigh*... they know how to piss each other off, don't they... from an Israeli perspective, it's another argument as to why the city should belong to Israel only. From a Palestinian perspective, it's a dick move.

My wish for Jerusalem is make it a DMZ or a museum. Move all people out of there. Shut the power off. Water, everything. Don't let anyone in or out without permission. There has been so much fighting over that city, so much blood spill, quarreling, wars, most of it over completely trivial things. It's a monument of stubborn stupidity and refusals to make compromises. Best leave the place deserted. Totally unrealistic, I know. But as long as that city is sacred to several religions, and is smack-dab in a place ruled by people willing to kill to get their hands on it, the killings will continue.

[kakado_to_save 514]

Dude i live in Ashdod ^^

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Of the religions claiming some rights in Jerusalem, only the Christians are militant for peace (an oxymoron?).  Try the Sermon on the Mount, for openers.  Try Christ's great commandment "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole mind and thy whole soul, and thy neighbor as thyself for the love of Him".

The Muslims and the Jews, being warring siblings, are not listening, even though the Muslims accept the Book.  They seem to die by the gilded rule of "Do unto others before they do unto you".

If it were up to me, but I was far too young in 1945, Israel would never have happened.  The Diaspora would simply have been continued, even if some arm-twisting had to be done.  Clearly Russian Jews could not be repatriated to Stalin's regime, so all eastern European Jews would also have to have been settled in the west.  Canada and the United States have lots of empty land, Canada especially.  We could have taken the whole kit and caboodle as immigrant/displaced persons and not noticed the influx except that by now our quality of life would be the best in the world.

The lands of the middle east could easily be left to the Arabs, who could have been helped to make a new Arab federation that would have rivaled the old Moorish Empire.  Just look at the development in some of the Arab countries now, and think of it as covering the entire eastern Med and northern Africa.

By now, with Canada in the act, there would be some sort of internationalisation of all the Holy Places in the east, and things would be a lot more peaceful.

[thepokemaniac 18]

Just as a reminder, lets not generalize Palestinians as just Arabs. Its like calling Koreans and Vietnamese the same, they're asian yet different.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Yes, that's true, but they are pretty homogenous now.  After the two Islamic empires is it hard to tell a Persian (farsi speaker, usually) from anyone else in that area, many of whom are of pure Semitic stock.  I think we all know there are others mixed in as well.  To say that is to say the same about us.  A genetic study of various eithnic types in New York recently made all of them cousins, genetically, as they had 99% the same genome.  Vive la difference?

[naftixe 131]

Israel has the right to keep and build whatever she wants on all her territories including the so-called disputes zones. Palestine had her chance for statehood in 1947, but did not go thru with it. All lands that are held by Israel are Israeli. They took those possessions when other nations attempted to wipe them from existence.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I would like to see how this all turns out. I think that Gaza, Golan Heights, and the West Bank should belong to the Palestinians only, Galilee to belong to the Christians only, and all other parts should belong to the Jews.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

It is too late now, but one could hope that Trygve Lee and his cohorts from the early UN are safely ensconced in the middle tail race of Dis.  The United Nations has done more harm in the name of peace than Atilla the Hun.

[Odainsaker 2,135]

Originally posted by: naftixe

Israel has the right to keep and build whatever she wants on all her territories including the so-called disputes zones. Palestine had her chance for statehood in 1947, but did not go thru with it. All lands that are held by Israel are Israeli. They took those possessions when other nations attempted to wipe them from existence.quote>

A familiar blanket statement, but it misses an important point:  what is Israel to then do with all the opposition peoples within those disputed territories?

Mass expulsion and lebensraum?

Apartheid?

Extermination or ethnic cleansing?

Grant of Israeli citizenship and the right to vote in greater Israel?

If Israel is to be triumphant, it will have to deal with a final solution to that Palestinian question.  Many were already expelled during previous wars, still now living in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan while awaiting their return.  Some Israeli Arabs were given citizenship, but there are calls now by the hawkish parties in the current coalition government to revoke that citizenship.  The current lean overseeing the noncitizens within the territories seems towards apartheidism, where the population is kept segregated into a patchwork of isolated and secured cages.  Combating Palestinian terrorism is the public safety reason, with an eye that Hamas and the PLO cannot be allowed to replicate the militant nationalist success of Israel's own Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi against the British.

If the top quoted outcome is the one to be achieved, and if we also don't wish for Israel to dabble in crimes against humanity for all of us dubious Western backers to watch on CNN, then a grant of citizenship to all those people living in the territories would seem the only logical outcome.  Obviously, that would radically change the demographic character of Israel away from the "Jewish Democracy."  We then must ask, is it more important for Israel to first be Jewish, or for Israel to be a democracy?  An apartheid system is not a democracy.  Sigh...we can thank the early 20th century for mixing ethnic nationalism with automatic weapons.

Hence come the need for the settlements and immigration...not just to nicely undo tragic millenia of the Jewish diaspora, but to change the demographics of the territories by the insertion and expansion of key strategic settlements, so that when the question is finally called, the result would be a fait accompli.  What besides lebensraum are we to make of, "Americans and many other countries have a lot (!) of space.... somthing that we dont have..."  A worrisome issue is that the pool of Jewish immgration into Israel now comes from the now-opened states and satellites of the former Soviet Union, where the functional practice of democracy is recent and not well-established among the governments or the population, leading to a new wave of rather extremist immigrant-settler political parties in Israel.  These are the political parties that want to enact loyalty tests and strip existing Israeli Arab citizens of their legal status, and which now have key posts in the current coalition government.  "Arabs to the gas chambers," makes for ugly graffiti worthy only of the Iranian-backed terrorists themselves, and we shouldn't delude ourselves with how the region would go would if Israel were to sadly destroy itself with such insane foolishiness.

Perhaps this is all for Israel to work out amidst itself.  I must suggest this though:  as U.S. and other Western aid flows into Israel in order to maintain its security, that backing allows Israel to divert its own resources to deliberately build its immigrant settlements on disputed lands.  In this way, American taxpayers are indirectly subsidizing expansions which I suspect most do not support and our own government decries, all at a time when America is increasingly debt-ridden and its own people go homeless.  Let Israel cover its own cost of its own territorial colonial program, and I suspect we will see a greater moderation of its actions.  Of course, our own Christian and conservative party shrieks at such suggestions, afterall, defense makes for great fodder in Presidential campaigns, and the establishment of God's Kingdom in America calls for ushering in Armaggedon as prerequiste for the Second Coming of Christ.  Hehehe...our American Procurator in Jerusalem needs to remind our subsidized client about who is the hegemon and who is the proxy, as the tail is wagging the dog again.

Thankfully, I don't think the quoted top statement and all that it truly entails are a likely outcome, as Israel would likely lose both its Jewish character and its democracy if it were to launch onto that scheme.  The Two-State Solution is the only feasable outcome, and all the current crises are over-dressed maneuvering inflated by selfish extemists on both sides, who, already knowing their dreams of ultimate victory are cynical fictions to feed their base supporters, are merely trying carve out a move favorable slice for themselves.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

A "final solution"?  You are a poet with trigger words.

The right-wingers of Israel would like to hear that one, I am sure.  The 1930-45 model of a final solution is there for them to see.  It behooves these victims of the NAZI regime not to take pages from their books, especially Mein Kampf.  Besides, isn't it too late now to talk about victims of the NAZIs?  Most of them have long since passed off this mortal coil, and all that anger should be dissipated by now.  Who keeps boiling the pot?  People remember things far too long.

[svachon 3]

Song by Bob Dylan - The Neighborhod Bully is Isreal.

Neighborhood bully, he just lives to survive

He's criticized and condemned for being alive

Not supposed to fight back and have thick skin

Supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in

He's the neighborhood bully

Well he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace

They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease

Now they wouldn't hurt a fly, to hurt one they would weep

They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep

He's the neighborhood bully

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone

Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon

He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand

In bed with nobody, under no ones command

He's the neighborhood bully

Neighborhood bully been driven out of every land

He's wandered the earth, an exiled man

Seen his family scattered, people hounded and torn

He's always on trial for just being born

He's the neighborhood bully

Well he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized

Old women condemned him, said, "He should apologize"

Then he destroyed a bomb factory, ain't nobody was glad

The bombs were meant for him, he was supposed to feel bad

He's the neighborhood bully

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Originally posted by: svachon

Song by Bob Dylan - The Neighborhod Bully is Isreal.

Neighborhood bully, he just lives to survive

He's criticized and condemned for being alive

Not supposed to fight back and have thick skin

Supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in

He's the neighborhood bully

quote>

I am not going to even try to argue with that half-exaggeration/half-boldfaced lie.

Well he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace

They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease

Now they wouldn't hurt a fly, to hurt one they would weep

They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep

He's the neighborhood bully

quote>

None of the countries immidiately surrounding Israel are pacifist

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone

Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon

He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand

In bed with nobody, under no ones command

He's the neighborhood bully

quote>

True enough

Neighborhood bully been driven out of every land

He's wandered the earth, an exiled man

Seen his family scattered, people hounded and torn

He's always on trial for just being born

He's the neighborhood bully

quote>

Isreal used to be 2 kingdoms surrounded by nothing, then empires became his neighbors, then the Jews moved away, then the Jews moved back. Many people are fine with Isreal's existance but no one likes an imperialist these days (annexing neighboring countries)

Well he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized

Old women condemned him, said, "He should apologize"

Then he destroyed a bomb factory, ain't nobody was glad

The bombs were meant for him, he was supposed to feel bad

He's the neighborhood bully

quote>

Your neighborhood bully keeps his enemies (Palestinians) locked up in his basement without food (trade restrictions and destroying all their sources of food).

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Bob Dylan is an activist equivocator.  He just likes to stir the pot, and he is not worth a passing eructation.

I have said before that this is a family spat, but it has been aggravated by too many "good samaritans" all of whom should but out, international criminal arms dealers included.