Image Posting Policy Suggestion

[SteveMSim 275]

As you probably know, SimCity 4's camera saves the images taken by it in the PNG format.  The images in the PNG format are not compressed, which means enormous sizes for larger images.  Some members have posted images from their games in these forums in the default PNG format.  It takes a long time for PNG images to download and I sometimes had to refresh my browser several times to get all of the images to load when someone had posted a large number of PNG images.

Images in the PNG format, which was not intended for Web use, consume a lot of bandwidth.  One reason that Simtropolis' policy limiting image sizes to 800 x 600 was to save on costly bandwidth.  The use of PNG images negates this purpose.  It is costing this site money to allow bandwidth-consuming PNG images to load onto threads.

You can convert PNG images to smaller-sized file formats such as Jpeg or GIF with just about any image editing program, including the primitive Paint program that comes with any copy of the Windows operating system.  Converting is simple just by opening the original image and then saving it as a jpg or gif image.  You don't need sophisticated software such as Photoshop for this, and image quality does not matter much for SimCity's images.

I suggest that Simtropolis' image policy be amended to allow only images in the Jpeg or GIF format, since they are designed for the Web, don't take forever to load, and do not consume much valuable bandwidth.  That policy would apply to the CJs as well, since I now avoid CJs where someone has used SimCity's default PNG images.

[Tysons4 68]

yes, i for one make it a point to only share pics that ive converted into jpgs because I'm sick of waiting to pngs to load

simtropolis should enact this law

pngs and jpgs are the same quality but pngs are huge and jpgs are tiny

[astronelson 339]

Er, it is a rule.

17. Image Size. The maximum size for images is 800 x 600 pixels horizontally or 600 x 800 pixels vertically. Stacked images or mosaics are permitted. It is preferred that images are posted in .JPEG format. Please be courteous with file size.quote>

If it's a small image, we will allow PNGs, but for the larger images (such as in CJs) we want the images as JPEGs.

[SC4BOY 20]

I was just gonna say! Hey we already DON'T.. heheh Some have gotten a bit sloppy about it tho..

[beebs 129]

The rule in question offers our suggestion that only jpg's or gif's are used, however it is not a dead-set rule, and as such is not enforced. Most images, jpg or png will be approximately the same size (depending, of course, on the quality it was saved at); the suggestion was put in place, not for size constraints, but to help counteract an error with Internet Explorer where the images would not display. I'm not sure if that error still occurs, but I haven't heard anything of it for some time.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Originally posted by: beebs

 Most images, jpg or png will be approximately the same sizequote>

*Splutters tea over keyboard*  Sorry?

I just took a 1.14 MB .PNG image and saved it as JPEG with 100% quality - a highly unlikely scenario. Still the size went down to 772 kB. Even at 80% quality (which is probably more than most people use) file size went down enormously, to just 138 kB. Multiply that with an entire page full of pictures, and you get a huge difference.

In case of the post SteveMSim is probably alluding to, most of the nearly 20 pictures posted were 2.8 MB each, amounting to well over 50 MB in total. With any widely available conversion tool either left at standard settings (as would probably be the case with less tech-savvy users) or adjusted to more than decent quality levels (I'm thinking of the 75-85% range here), the numbers would have made a whole world of difference.

Especially since ST isn't quite the fastest site on the web anyway, I honestly wouldn't mind seeing this recommendation established as a fixed rule, but of course that's just my personal point of view.

[Vahr 341]

Of course, one must remember that things like logos and other sharply defined edges are not suitble for the JPEG method of compression (8x8 pixel gradient blocks, blurring of edges. Also, compression method results in artifacting) and should be in GIF or PNG. Though as many are small images anyways, there's not a big issue in terms of size/loading time. GIF is not preferred for pictures with a lot of colors (ie SC4 screenshots) so its best to go with JPEG.

Just a little advice on these things.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: SteveMSim

The images in the PNG format are not compressedquote>

Wrong. They are. Difference is that the compression is lossless. Want something truly uncompressed? Save your image in bitmap format, it'll be ten times the size of the PNG version.

Your point is valid, however, that PNG images are usually larger than JPGs. Usually. Some JPGs saved at very high quality can actually compress to slightly smaller PNGs.

Images in the PNG format, which was not intended for Web use, consume a lot of bandwidth.  One reason that Simtropolis' policy limiting image sizes to 800 x 600 was to save on costly bandwidth.quote>

Except that it's not Simtropolis' bandwidth that people's images are using, it's most likely ImageShack's or Photobucket's. PNG or JPG, those images cost ST exactly nothing to display.

You can convert PNG images to smaller-sized file formats such as Jpeg or GIF with just about any image editing program, including the primitive Paint program that comes with any copy of the Windows operating system.quote>

True, but, trust me on this one: you don't want to save anything in JPG format using MS Paint. The resulting image will be of horrible quality.

Originally posted by: T Wrecks

I just took a 1.14 MB .PNG image and saved it as JPEG with 100% qualityquote>

Betcha I can make that image smaller than 1.14 MB while still keeping it in PNG format.

Protip: use a png crusher program.

Even at 80% quality (which is probably more than most people use)quote>

I sure hope not. MS Paint defaults to 85%. Anything less than 90% is crap. And, depending on the nature of the image, even that may be too low. If I save anything in JPG format, it's almost always at 95% or higher.

Originally posted by: Blue Lightning

Of course, one must remember that things like logos and other sharply defined edges are not suitble for the JPEG method of compression (8x8 pixel gradient blocks, blurring of edges. Also, compression method results in artifacting) and should be in GIF or PNG.quote>

There is also the problem that the JPG format can't do transparency.

As for GIF, it's good for animation but that's basically it. Any static GIF is almost guaranteed to be smaller if converted to PNG (properly optimized, anyway), and no quality will be lost.

[simmaster07 1,220]

Originally posted by: beebs

The rule in question offers our suggestion that only jpg's or gif's are used, however it is not a dead-set rule, and as such is not enforced. Most images, jpg or png will be approximately the same size (depending, of course, on the quality it was saved at); the suggestion was put in place, not for size constraints, but to help counteract an error with Internet Explorer where the images would not display. I'm not sure if that error still occurs, but I haven't heard anything of it for some time.quote>

The issue was fixed way back in the release of IE7, and if I recall correctly, the issue occurred when a PNG had transparency (where it just showed up as a grey area instead of transparency).

IE6 is hard to make compatible with most sites today, anyways. You'd be better off deprecating it anyways.

[Duke87 1,070]

Actually, there was a separate issue that affected the ST Forum specifically. All PNG images embedded in posts would not display, period, for anyone using any version of Internet Explorer. This was fixed with the upgrade to ST6 (March 2009).

[Lyhoko Leaci 770]

Though said .png images could be forced to show in IE by setting a size in the image window back then. Not that it matters now with whatever bug caused it being fixed.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Well, I feel that this thread is moving a bit too far into technical details...

Yes, you can optimize PNGs considerably, and if you know the right tools (and how to use them), you may be able to produce smaller sized images in PNG format than in JPEG.

Yes, PNG is fine for everything where crisp edges and letterings are required - and/or transparency.

Yes, there are different preferences as to the quality of JPEGs - and yes, we could also delve into every tiny detail of the different conversion performance of MS Paint vs. GIMP and whatnot. We could also discuss the effect of re-sizing using Lanczos or whatever algorithm, etcetera, etcetera.


However, this all misses the point. The problem is not logos, the problem is not smart use of thoroughly optimized PNGs, the problem is not which tool someone uses or whose bandwidth is used.

The problem is that sometimes people don't know how to convert the images they took with SimCity's built-in camera tool (and/or how to use a screengrabber application that produces JPEGs right away, once properly adjusted), and that they slap a huge bunch of these PNGs (each weighing in at +2 MB) into a thread that's full of pictures anyway. This, in turn, causes insane loading times. That's the issue.

You can rest assured that these peope are most probably no tech gurus that can optimize the heck out of a PNG file, hence a discussion about all the technical details of various image formats, converters and optimizer programs is nice coffee table conversation (maybe on the slightly nerdy side, but still nice   , but doesn't really get us anywhere.

Leaving all that stuff aside, I'd be happy to have a high chance of clicking on a thread without getting a flashback to the days of 56k modems, watching images build up line by line, for several minutes. And I'd welcome a rule that instructs people to post images in a reasonable format, because this would shorten potential discussions considerably.

You know, it's not that I right-click each and every image to hunt for that odd PNG hidden somewhere because I'm such an anal retentive dogmatist (at least in this respect... *cough* ). When I realize that someone posted huge PNGs, it's because the thread loads at snail's pace.

[simmaster07 1,220]

But as you stated, T Wrecks, some people might not know how to convert to JPEGs without using MS Paint and saving an image that, while it is smaller, is going to be of poor quality. There's also the issue that you can make a rule very simple to understand and have someone run around with their underwear screaming "READ IT, READ IT" (Zel? ), but they still won't read it.

There are also the novices who don't know how to upload to another image host and just attach all their images. Now that cuts into ST's bandwidth. That, and people who upload rendered regions, but that's another conversation.

[Duke87 1,070]

A little historical perspective:

When the 800x600 limit was first imposed for images (July 3, 2003), it also came with a 200 kb limit. On the other hand, at this point in time, sites like ImageShack and Photobucket did not exist, and virtually every image posted on the forum was uploaded to the ST server. So in those days, there was a direct bandwidth issue. Then 2004 rolled around, the site started feeling a bandwidth crush, and there was push to get people to host their images offsite. This led to the creation of Simtropolis Picture Hosting, and eventuallty its successor, ImgCity.net - created expressly for people to host images to host to the ST forum, run by one of our members (Huskerman007). Then people discovered ImageShack, and ImgCity found itself obsolete. Before long, it shut down. Finally, on March 5, 2006, Simtropolis switched its forum software from idealbb to FuseTalk, and the old way of uploading images to the ST server and then embedding them in one's post was no longer even possible.

At some point, I'm not sure exactly when, the 200 kb limit (which was never really enforced) was removed and replaced with the "Please be courteous about file size" statement that remains there to this day.

It may also be noted that in the days of uploading images directly to ST, they had to be in JPG or GIF format. PNG images could only be used if they were hosted offsite. Incidentally, this was the case with avatars as well,but with the aforementioned forum software switch, the ability to host avatars offsite was lost, and now PNG avatars are no longer possible at all.

...I guess my point is: if there is an issue with loading times, a filesize limit would be far more logical than a file format restriction. 200 kb is a bit too small, though. I'd bump it up to 300 or 400.

[simmaster07 1,220]

Well are we capable of checking image formats? Yes. Are we capable of checking filesizes when hosted on the ST server? Yes. Are we capable of checking off-site filesizes?

... definitely not. Even if such a rule existed, like I said before, it couldn't be enforced well enough to make much of a difference.

[kingdiz_55 12]

I think we should limit the amount of pictures posted on threads as threads sometimes take a very long time to load. Anyway, we really don't need entire CJ updates on "Show us your..." threads