Sam Johnson's Soviet BAT Bunker

[Sam_Johnson 1]

Hello ST,

In this thread I'm going to show you my (mainly soviet)  BAT-Projects. If you think there is room for improvement, just let me know

I started Batting about 2 years ago, but I lost allmost all models I which are older than 1 year, because of a harddrive crash After that I fell in love with the soviet style, so I began batting soviet stuff last year in autumn. However I was able to get a few things done, but pictures say more than words.

At first these project I cancelled for now, because of various reason.

Here I got one huge Project which gonna take months till all needed buildings are finished: A Steel Mill

And here all other BATs which are in progress or finished

The following BATs are my most current BATs

Thats what I got  since autumn last year . As you see I allmost every BAT is a commie block or something industrial  But I hope you like my BATs

[hammamet272 2]

I love your BATS the detail is so exquisite. I love the beautiful buildings in SC4 but the ugly industrial buildings have a strange beauty of their own. Will the steel mills smoke and steam when they are finished? I always have images of soviet style buildings sending choking clouds of steam and smoke high up into the air

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Wha-wow-is this-huh-ma-how- whuuu...????

We havez anotherz SimHoTToDDy and Glenni!!!!

[TekindusT 3,809]

I encourage you to finish one of this buildings and release it when they can't get better; I need to see that steel mill on the STEX some day...

[Francis90b 748]

First of all welcome! I wish you a nice journey there!

I did look at your thread at SC4d, and i was amazed by the amount of detail and accuracy you put in your work.

And you're doing some projects that are impressive for their very nature and size....oh well, so i could read about them there as well.

May I ask some more infos about the steel mill (i.e will it be composed of a group of props put on a LOT or it's components will be released on separate LOTs)?

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

I see you and I are going to be good friends

I just finished buildings identical to the ones in your last image, although I made them look a bit newer.

Anyway, looking forward to you actually releasing some of these. I can't wait to get my filthy mitts on these for my CJ.

-Todd

[Evillions 552]

OMG!!!!!!

---

Not even that can express how great those BATs are.

Anyway, you said you finished them.  Do you have links to the uploads or you didn't upload them yet?

EDIT:  I'd surely love to have BAT lessons from you.

[madhatter106 3,922]

It's like SimHoTToDDy had a long lost twin, and they were finally reunited in a BAT thread...

I must say, you're off to an impressive start. Nowadays, people open BAT threads and it seems like there are pages and pages of chit-chat before an actual BAT is shown - you've given us a ton to look at, and just in the first post. Commendable, and it shows dedication. This is what BAT threads should look like!

[delija21 295]

Welcome. I've been following your work for a long time now, and as all obove me here i just love. The details are incredible, an it would be nice to see som of them released

[Sam_Johnson 1]

Oh I'm a bit surprised about this really really positive echo I at first want to thank you all for these nice comments

@hammamet272: Yes,  later when I'm doing the lots for them I will add couples of smoke and steam effects for making it more authentic.

@TekindusT: Thats my main problem I somehow thought I won't get many BATs finished, but somehow then it were just too many BATs. I maybe have to have a break in terns of batting and should do more lotting and modding

@Francis90b: Well the current state of the project makes me think, that It would be the best if the single facilities (like blast furnace, open hearth furnace, Basic Oxygen Furnace and so) are all on single lots which can be plopped together in a good way. Because the single Buildings are really huge so it would fail at least on the enormous lot size and the object limit which is  about 1200 objects per lot to my knowledge.

@SimHoTToDDy: At first Im glad to see you her ein my thread  . Yes I know your blocks but I have nothing against your ones but I needed some really dirty ones for my own use

@Evillions: Well I said the BATs are finished but no lotting or modding, and I don't think you want to see some BATs in your city which have some terrible modding and lotting

@madhatter106:Thanks for that kind of words. And yes I got there tons of pictures, but I have to note as I said this all was built in a long time. So don't expect a similar count of pictures in the next update

delija21: Thanks

However I'm just coming from school, so no new BAT in this post. But maybe thats no bad news, so I'm maybe able to finish something

[Amthaak 1,501]

Dear Sam_Johnson....WAOW!!! You are welcome! You have a good idea to join the community!  Please,  upload all these marvels!

BTW:

"Quote":

At first these project I cancelled for now

"Unquote":I hope it's just temporary....

[Roger51 381]

great to see your work in a thread now

Hope to see some of these being released!!

[Slashback 136]

Wow! So beautiful, and so ugly... At the same time!

[Jasoncw 11,941]

It looks like you're using 3ds max, have you thought about using the latest BAT4Max with Let There Be Light?

Your BATs are looking really good, it's surprising to see a thread start off with so many nice BATs like that.

[Sam_Johnson 1]

@Amthaak: Well the most of them are only temporary cancelled, for example the Novosibirsk Opera,  I don't really know why but I think I've done any stupid mistake so I'v overwritten the latest files and I didn't noticed for a too long while. but I still want to have that building in game so maybe somewhen I gonna pick it up again

@Roger51: Thanks

@ImVhOzzi: I've been always fascinated on beatiful BATs but ugly Buildings, So I just needed to focus on BATs like that

@Jasoncw: Yes I'm using 3dsmax. I thought about using LTBL but I don't like the (of course much more realistic) look, because of sun light and so on. If I wanted to do someting for another 3D Project of course I'd use things like that, but from my view BATs rendered with LTBL don't really harmonize with other BATs rendered in gmax and so on. That DOESN'T mean that I don't want to use all the nice possibilities of 3dsmax to make it look more realistic. But for me, fitting well in game is a bit more important than realism.  However, I'm using a Lightrig with very similar attributes like them from gmax, but I changed some little things like the shadows.

Well the reason why there's such a bunch of BATs in my first post is, that I started batting these allmost a year ago and I only now am activ on ST.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

To be honest, to hell with how GMAX bats look. Why stoop to the lesser technical quality when you can bring out every beautiful gritty detail with a proper lighting rig? Even if you don't use the LTBL rigs, you should at least thing about improving the quality of lighting. The shadows are flat and uninspiring and the details are being tragically obscured as well.

This reminds me of when I moved from scanline to MR. I had to re-do most of my bitmaps so that they would react the way that makes them fit in the game. Was it a pain in the ass? You bet, but the end result was something that both blended well in game (I think) and had the correct lighting effects. After a while I got attached to the new look, and I could only look back at scanline with mild disdain.

Still up to you I suppose. Just voicing my opinion. Either way I don't think I it would make me love your work any less

[SimFox 803]

The rig that has been originally created was meant for simple box shapes. And it worked/works for them fine.And if you look at the original buildings vast majority of them are those simple boxes - compromise, I'm sure, with limited ability of the lighting of the time...

here, for instance it looks quite adequate - it is a simple box, just like Maxis envisioned it...

Now, once you move to complex shapes with many recesses and so on, the argument "like the original" doesn't really hold any water you are not really doing "same thing".

Here, for instance,

some parts are oddly glow on their own, apparently. Don't give the "game look" argument , this isn't really the game type model anymore, And it becomes really disastrous here:

And those changes you've made to the rig - those raytraced endlessly sharp shadows, for instance really wreck the rig apart making other deficiencies too obvious. It doesn't really make it look like game any more than Mercedes with Vespa engine look like Trabant, it doesn't it just look like an odd mistake. The more odd and more mistake the better you BATs become.

Another problem that can be traced through all your BATs are the materials. You do fab texturing but again like a great modeling highlights,(no pan intended) your bad/unfitting lightning, here too, detailed and tailored textures puts spotlight that all the materials look exactly same. Everything reacts to light in a same fashion. Putting so much effort in only one channel... I bet you gonna give the "game" argument again. But here too it would be wrong. Wrong and based on poor observation. Game doesn't really look that flat

Don't get me wrong your stuff is good, very good, but the better it gets the more bad lighting becomes obvious.

[Cockatoo 2,257]

I had to check IP addresses to make sure this wasn't Todd playing a joke on us!

Seriously, your BATing style is almost identical to his, and that is meant as a big complement! Looking forward to seeing some of this stuff hit the STEX.

[mattb325 28,890]

Sam, the work that you are showcasing is spectacular - the large scale industrials in particular are still somewhat under-represented in custom content and it is great to see the detail you are putting into them  

The apartments are beautifully textured, and you've really captured the worn look of an old building that was probably run up on the cheap. I do hope that you will release them some day.

[Just FYI, mattb235, I merged the on-topic part of your two posts into this one and deleted all off-topic discussion. If anybody feels like fighting with anyone, then do what you must, but keep that crap out of Sam's BAT thread. SimFox, I also deleted some of your posts because they were either related to a post that's no longer here, or off-topic.

Likewise, don't drag discussions from other sites over to Simtropolis, it's against the rules - and not without reason.

Keep it civil from now on and comment on Sam's work instead of accusing each other of anything - and all this over some 3d models for a computer game...  

T Wrecks, Moderator]

[Francis90b 748]

Maybe it's time to give up on this topic....don't you think so, folks?

[issa76 10]

it's simply amazing, All those details make your bat really realistic. The commie blocks are amazing and your factory, there is no word!

But please, We supply you to upload it...

I hope to see more as soon as is possible

[Glenni 1,447]

To be honest i prefer the more blurry  and less crisp approach GMAX BATs  and your custom made rig makes, they fit better with existing BATs IMO. 

LTBL BATs are great and all, but we have several years of BATs made before LTBT, and to be honest i would prefer buildings to mix with those, and Maxis' works, which is why i chose to go back to BAT, and try out Sam Johnson's rigs too.

So to me, these buildings are a welcome addition.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

Simfox & mattb325: If you have words you would like to exchange with one other, please use private messages. No one wants to hear your grievances, it shouldn't be dragged out in the open like this.

"Discuss the topic, not each other"

~~~

But you see, Mr Viking, that most of your buildings are essentially boxes, so GMAX has no issue with them. The problem arises, like simfox pointed out, when you have more complex geometry. Its a shame to see hard work vanish into a poorly rendered shadow.

My philosophy is this: we have the capacity to make our BATS look absolutely stunning, why would we willingly sabotage that ability to make them match with uninspiring models from seven years ago? Wouldn't it be better to see every BAT at the highest technical quality?

[TownMaster2005 79]

SimHoTToDDy I can only agree with your sentiments. Lets keep the forums focused.

Sam; your work, simply said is stunning. I cannot wait for the day that you release them to us. Personally I don't mind a few imperfections here and there as very little is ever perfect and that is not the kind of world we live in.

[Evillions 552]

Did you actucally model everything inside the balaconies or did you use a texture? It looks VERY real to me, so just want to know for future reference.

[Sam_Johnson 1]

Alright that’s what I’d call a couple of replies

First about this for me also baseless.. stop.. This is now more needed Thank you T-Wrecks

Alright your main point of criticism are the shadows? I know that raytraced shadows which are sharp until their end aren’t really the kind of shadow that’s looking real at all. Well as you bet, (yeah I’m really predictable ), I gonna pick up the “game argument” In my view the shadows casted by the buildings ingame on the ingame ground have a really similar shape to the raytraced shadows. I also could use these very very blurry shadow map kind shadows like in gmax.

About Materials, well I have no problem with creating useable materials (I don’t mean the bitmaps) But somehow I never ever really thought about, that their effects really change (except bump maps, alpha maps and these elementary things of course) the result. But on my next BATs I could have a try.

Quote:

“My philosophy is this: we have the capacity to make our BATS look absolutely stunning, why would we willingly sabotage that ability to make them match with uninspiring models from seven years ago? Wouldn't it be better to see every BAT at the highest technical quality?”

Because they will look out of place between all these “uninspiring” models. I don’t really see a big advantage if we are having a huge count of these “uninspiring” models and a small count of these “high quality models” Or do you want to call this out of place look an advantage?

I agree with glenni, this new and different (maybe better) look just looks ingame between all these older BATs, for me just out of place, as I said. That’s my Opinion.

But in the end, I don’t think that we are able to find a compromise. If you don’t like it this way, don’t use it.

@ Evillions: The stuff on my balconies is simply modelled with really low poly models and alpha maps.

Still no new BAT or any progress on the older ones. During the week I'm just too busy with school.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

I have an idea... it might be stupid, but I still thought I'd mention it. Sam, you could send one of your 3ds models to one of the advocates of the "new school" so he can tweak the materials and lighting effects the way he thinks it should be done. Then the two versions could be plopped (or photoshopped) into a mixed scene, and we will see the pros and cons - and most of all, if the difference is so noticeable to the untrained eye at all.

I can't help feeling that the question of which light rig and which materials to use is being discussed almost like a religious matter, while in reality the differences might not be so huge for most people out here.

I mean, let's face it - the undeniable truth is that any BAT downloader already uses a pretty wild mix of Maxis and Custom, gmax and 3dsmax, and stuff from different creators with different peculiarities. For example, let's take jestarr's work. I think anyone who is into industrial uses quite a lot of jestarr's BATs. However, my impression is that they generally show a tendency towards being a bit too dark, often too greenish in hue and sometimes oversaturated when compared to Maxis industrials. They are still fine BATs, though, and I'm using many of them myself - and liking them.

As a consequence, my industrial areas have a slightly mixed look to them anyway, and I already filter my downloads pretty strictly, discarding most of the stuff I download. I don't know if some newer 3ds stuff would stand out that much in such an already heterogeneous context - hence my idea.

I can understand that you don't want to change your way of doing things if you think that other people's way leads to buildings not blending in. Maybe if someone managed to demonstrate what he thinks and prove it with an in-game shot, you might feel more inclined to consider a few changes. Likewise, if others see your stuff in a typical game context, they might lose their fear that your buildings will look sub-par, who knows?

 So yeah... maybe all this is stupid and nonsense, but I figured it couldn't hurt to offer these thoughts for consideration.

[Francis90b 748]

I think that TWrecks had expressed a great point here.

[Jasoncw 11,941]

I'd be willing to participate in T Wreck's idea. I hope my BATs are considered to blend into the game, and that I'd be a good person to retweak a BAT for ltbl.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

Because they will look out of place between all these "uninspiring" models. I don't really see a big advantage if we are having a huge count of these "uninspiring" models and a small count of these "high quality models" Or do you want to call this out of place look an advantage?quote>

Why fill in the gaps with uninspiring models when you can replace them with high quality ones. The point is, the more people we have making models with better lighting the less we have to rely on the old models. If you have a city full of mud huts and only one or two civilized, well constructed buildings wouldn't you want to make more well constructed buildings so people didn't have to live in mud huts? That is what I'm getting at. Yes, some of the nicer models stick out a little, but we have the capacity to nullify the situation by making those buildings match with similarly well rendered buildings. Think of bixel's HK buildings when he first started out. They looked completely out of place and bizarre because they were stylistically out of place in SC4. What did he do to fix that? He made dozens upon dozens more buildings to go together (along with the rest of the HKABT)!!!

In the mean time, I agree with T wrecks' idea. Having made a few commie blocks and factories myself, I think I manage to get things to blend pretty well in game. That being said, I learned all my tricks from Jason

P.S. I like where this discussion is going, I hope you don't mind Sam