nybt-forum-threads Sgt Pepper's NYBT Projects

[Francis90b 748]

When there will be progresses, i doubt that Sgt will ever show them up....oh wait, that's it's BAT thread and the point of a BAT thread is to showing up your BATs and their progresses? Then of course no, he will never show up any progress.

SgtPepper:

Glad you could recover your BAT installation and work again.

Keep it up!

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Hey Thanks for stopping by Francis!

So I edited the mullions, I like them better. I think I need to make them brighter....I also changed the facade texture, but I need to edit it's contrast and edit its color. I'm assuming the glass is fine...I need to double check the self ilumination...I think I actually forgot to have it with Wall Street Plaza...

Overall. The base isn't done(nor is it really there...) The plane won't be there when the base is done. Also, my heights on my more recent buildings, 22 Cortlandt, Wall Street Plaza, and I think a few non-NYBT BATs all have been scaled according to the Sim's height. So, it's like the model is scaled at 133%(I think) when I start modeling. 250 Broadway(the one I'm BATing) is the same as those.

Anyone's oppinions on the current textures and scale? Or anything else?

[SimFox 804]

It's hard to say really. Building isn't too much photographed, and I can't say I'm wondering why.

I wonder why have you decided to make it? Because it looks simple? Given the lack of source material it may be quite an opposite really.

But I've take a look at what little could be found about this building and...

Well, let me first as few questions.

Are you planning to put it on 3x3 lot, right?

Do you plan to make it wall to wall?

are you planning to chop off extruding bit on the west (as for model) side?

These are meaningful question that would determine key feature here - width of the window.

Another meaningful feature (it depends on the width of the window too) recesses of the layers. But here I can spot one error right away. The last top one is, I believe, (on the south side) flash with the previous level

Another thing that is in absolute values depend on the width of the window is the block between windows (separating them vertically). However it's proportions (ration of width to hight) is independent . And I strongly believe that for normal floors it is 1:1 eg it is square. And window hight is about 1,35 of the hight of that block.

That said the "between floors" block covering (at least in part) parapet wall of the 2nd and 4th layers is taller than normal and is equal in hight to the window. In your model such block is in fact shorter than normal one.

The topmost part of the building in hight is equal to 7,25 window heights From what I can tell from that small rendering you've got it right). This means that the one block block just above the one and only layer of windows proper in that part is about 25% taller than the window height.

Corner bits are suppose to be flash with the level of the wall with vertical "rails" extruding beyond that level somewhat

What do you think the material those between floor bits are made from? It is just patinated metal?

PS here a bit better picture of teh top of the building:

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Interesting questions.

?I wonder why have you decided to make it? Because it looks simple? Given the lack of source material it may be quite an opposite really.

I decided to make it since I like the architectural style and the building's color and it's shape. Also, it's next to the Woolworth Building and the Transportation Building, so seeing those two done in a row, I figured I should add the next one on the row.  Getting the setbacks on this 50's block is quite difficult.

?Well, let me first as few questions.

Are you planning to put it on 3x3 lot, right?

Do you plan to make it wall to wall?

are you planning to chop off extruding bit on the west (as for model) side?

1.Actually, the building will be on a 4x3 or 3x4 lot. I may consider actually going ahead and make the lot size 4x4. I can, however, possibly re-shape it's proportions to make it 3x3...

2. Yes, I plan to make it wall to wall. I think we need some more modern W2W. Though, I might edit the base on the W2W side to make it able to grow stand alone though(unlike some of my previous W2W buildings).

3. The extruding bit on the west side? I think I see what you're talking about but I think you got the sides mixed up though. Can you point it out specifically in case I'm wrong about where you're talking about?

Nice reference photo, it helps! I did some editing to fix the back(which is the North Side on my model BTW, but I'm displaying the east side) though I still didn't get it to completely match the photo nor have I made the windows back there yet.

Also, I edited the facade texture, which I don't think is "painted" metal, I think Emporis said it's light grey aluminum or something. I also brightened the mullions.

I gotta edit the mullion texture and turn off self ilumination....

Also, about the top part....the mullions do match up with the lower part, but from photo I've seen, there's still some "line" that divides the part but the mullions line up. So...I need to edit that.

Any other questions or suggestions I'll be happy to answer!

EDIT: Oh and I'm going to scale down Wall Street Plaza a bit. I'll show a comparison pic with the new and old scale later.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

So I scaled down Wall Street Plaza and did a draft render of it and compared it to the old one-

Should I scale it down some more? I think I should, I just wanted to see what ya'll would say. For some reason, It looks shorter even though the floors seem to match up with the taller building...

[ozdaniel 4]

you need to scale it down some more i think!!!

 

because it's muce more shorter then the Continental Center !!

[PBGV103 729]

It's tough for me to tell. It might be easier if you pasted it in a in-game picture.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Well, I did scale it done in Gmax again, but before I show that later....

This is it again with the same scale I compared it to old Wall Street Plaza, now compared to the Continental Center-

I think the LODs on the Continental Center are a little off, the building seems to "float"...even though the tower itself is awsome.

[PBGV103 729]

Yeah the LODs are off, and maybe the reason your's looks oversized is because the continental center is undersized. Just a thought.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Who knows which is over or under scaled. I think I should just leave it as is now(to the scale I currently got it) and just re-render it. Or should I just keep the current one? What do you think?

[SimFox 804]

About Wall Street Plaza.

The sizes are quite off, unfortunately. Let's start with those easily verifiable - X and Y

Form Google earth it is very clear that the long side of the building is a tad under 64m ( your model is over 76m) and short is a bit over 27 - so building would totaly comfortably fit onto 2x4 lot. It doesn't have to but just to say.

It's height is a bit more problematic. Emporis only gives floor count and doesn't say anything about total height. Still the building is pretty regular. You can guesstimate regular floor height. Number of about 3,8m would probably land you in a right area. It is also clear that two lowest floors are about 1,5 times taller than the regular ones and that crown is about 2 regular floors tall give or take. This will give us "natural" height of about 137 m. This you could go and scale... 133% would yield 182m or about almost 30 m less than than version you've released.

Another issue with this building is it's LODs. They are pointlessly oversized and off center:

As for 250 Broadway here are my points, hope these are readable:

PS

I wouldn't compare it to Continental... It is quite a mess! Just open it in reader...

The LODs are 193m tall - hard to say if teh building itself is that tall, case said LODs are 119x119 m in footprint!

Lot names says it is 6x6, when in fact it is 4x4, to squeeze 119x119m LOD onto 64x64m lot he had manually in SC4Lot Lot Exemplar entered occupant size of 0.5, 0, 0.5 size - that may create problems in game.

Unfortunately One New York Plaza also is oddly off. The difference is actually quite small - real thing is 93 m wide his model is 87, so just 6 meters... but why? It doesn't really serve any point I've noticed. The lot is 6 tiles wide so either building would fit perfectly fine on it...

Its hight appears to be pretty much accurate to RL 198 (model) vs 195 (RL building) which point to inconsistency within Darknono's body of work - his model of Continental (if LODs height to be believed) is 193m tall, while real building is 165m tall. So here we have 116% scale...

So, don't use his models as a measuring stick... The method I described above would give you far better consistency.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Thanks for all that input SimFox. I re-sized the building, it will be 4x2 now. I also think I got the height for it fine now too. Well, that depends when you look at it in this pic I'm about to show.

Oh and about the LODs, I figured out after it was done rendering the first time that I forgot to re-fit the LODs. But the building would still be 5x3 even without the LODs refited so I didn't bother. They will be refited this time.

So I went ahead and just exported it for a proper "scale test"(yes, I'm too lazy to photoshop ) and I compared it to some buildings.

Don't mind the missing roof textures....nor the lot size... So, how's it looking. Seeing this makes me wish I still had the 22 Cortlandt Street model, so I could re-do it's height scale...I deleted it when I had that issue with the BAT since I originally thought it had to do with "too much large and objects-o-plenty models" saved. I wish there was a way to recover it...there was also a detail I overlooked and forgot to correct...I'm sure most of ya'll know what I'm talking about.

And thanks for the 250 Broadway pic. So there isn't a set back at the top? Strange...I thought there was a slight set back...Well that proves my lack of reference. Well, I'm in Louisiana dang-nabit! I'm not aware like them there yankees!

[ozdaniel 4]

Sgt Pepper

 the one new york plaza shoud be more taller like the black building neer hem even more taller then hem

[Sgt Pepper 864]

ozdaniel- I didn't BAT One New York Plaza, the only BATs of mine in that photo are 22 Cortlandt Street(the sort of light yellow building with the dark glass and window shades) and Wall Street Plaza(white building with the light blue glass and white roof). So there's not much I can do about it...

[Hanson784 165]

That scale test shows how out of scale darknono's recent BAT's are. He's a good modeler but his recent BAT's are out of scale unfortunately. I've PMed him offering help but never heard back from him. His One New York (195 m) is taller than One Liberty Plaza (226 m) (?). It should also be rotated at an angle as in RL due the geography of Lower Manhattan. Contiental Center is also out of scale.

Wall Street Plaza is looking better but it should be a couple of meters shorter than what you have it now, I still think the floor height is a couple of meters too tall. Use the method SimFox recommended.

Finally, I would darken the window texture a bit. This picture should help.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Okay, I think I may have Wall Street Plaza where it should be now, is it ready for re-release guys? I shortened it some more, and I darkened the window textures.

I hope it's ready, I like it as is now and I think I got the heights perfect. Oh and I have a question about releasing it again, should I release the V2 as a seperate upload and edit the other one to say it's obsolete with a link to the new one, or should I just edit the current upload with the new file?

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Why not go for variety? Maybe someone likes the BAT just for its look and not for it being the recreation of a particular building. 

What I'd worry about now is the overall colour hue. Everything looks greenish/blueish - a very cold colour palette, so to speak. By default, however, the game favours a warm, slightly peachy/pinkish hue.

Check the rooftop of Jason's Trier Tower - it has a warmer hue of grey and clearly contrasts with the walls. This emphasizes that the blue walls are simply coloured that way, whereas the overall warmth of the in-game light is reflected in the rooftop. The BAT manages to look like a blue building in warm light.

The rooftop of your building, in contrast, has the same greenish/blueish tint to it like the rest of the BAT. This makes it look like a building that stands under a cloudy sky on an overcast and dreary day.

[SimFox 804]

I'm with T Wrecks on Hue worry.

Apart from that the building is actually pretty white, yours is rather darkish gray...

As for the glass; rather that darkening it all I would go for increasing contrast in your texture, to make lighter colors brighter, while darker darker still. This way it would even more resemble random street reflections

But these are tricky things, you can spend rest of your life "improving" things... At some point you should simply decide when to say "It's Done!"

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Quote:you can spend rest of your life "improving" things... At some point you should simply decide when to say "It's Done!":UnQuote

Well then, I'm deciding it's done then since your saying that.

About the building, I made it that color so it won't look too white for the game.

EDIT: However, I could include a "warmer" color scheme version as a second variation with the V2 release if ya'll really want it appearing warmer.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Please excuse the double post...

How's this for a less cold color scheme?

Oh And I brightened the glass after I did this HQ Preview render... The Facade Texture is a little more red-ish grey rather than the blue-ish grey I just had it. I also completely changed some of the roof textures... I hope it's satisfactory now. I think I got this recreation pretty good now.

[SimFox 804]

Yes it's your decision, cause there is NO limit on improving things. Something little more could always be done better/more etc.

And although I have voiced concern about the hues, and the game has a bit warm feel to it. I don't think there is really need to but that pink overlay on top of things. It doesn't really work, since most of people use it wrong. Rig lighting provides enough "feel" by it's lighting. That is if you do things right in the first place. Namely when you select "texture" you should be extra careful. Nowadays there are tons of them floating around. With such a deluge drop in quality is inevitable. And the most difficult one to spot by simply looking at the picture on the monitor is color cast. Many "Texture Makers" had finally learned the rule not to photograph source material on a sunny day/spot, but seemed setteled just for that. Yet when you go to the shadow or even overcast day the color cast is very strong. And very few actually do something about it.

Tons of pictures of "concrete" etc floating around have very very strong blue and turquoise cast on them. Colors that are not naturally occurring around much at all. But are result of environmental lighting. So If you get some texture from somewhere always check for color cast. Concrete really should be color neutral gray, may be with some warmish overtones to it, but never blue/green. If you want it green/blue, you still better do it yourself. First color neutralize your texture adn then add color to it.

Originally posted by: Sgt Pepper

About the building, I made it that color so it won't look too white for the game.

quote>

Why do you afraid of White Building looking too White in the game. It is supposed to!

I'm really annoyed by all those "it's too bright" remarks one sees here and there. Most of the time they are made by people hardly understanding what they are talking about. They repeat them like parrots simply because they saw others do it. There are also a lot of misconception about the game. Misconceptions that had become mantras really. Ad "white" is one of them.

What you should really avoid is having overblow bits - those which when sampled with eyedropper would give you values of 255,255,255 -those are gone - you really don't have any picture there. These could only be tolerated for the very small highlights. But there is not realon to shy away from something like 245,238,232. That would be slightly warm white quite compatible to the game pallet. This said it could be difficult to balance there without Gamma Correction - and that is the reason for Let There Be Light. It not simple light setup, but Gamma corrector as well. You'll virtually NEVER get with it large overblown surfaces. But WHITE things should still look WHITE. otherwise there is no point in making white stuff.

Many buildings in game that are often sighted as an example of "white" aren't really. They are very light toned, but not really meant to be white. Yet there are some white structures, here is "my selection" ( I took 3x3 sample color from the vertical parts of facade):

Tri-Deck Condos:

Boutiques (really?)

Smith Tower (not really supposed to be white as such, more like whitish):

The Hogan. Whiteness itself!

Packard Apartments - really odd one - It's hard to say was that poisonous hue intended - hard to imagine really it is so nasty. Or do we see failed attempt to make something white yet not overblown? I believe it is the second...

Orange Point Suites:

As you can clearly see there isn't really one very clear direction. I believe original buildings were created by several teams and each had they own ideas of what and how should be done. So in a way it may mean a bit of wiggle room, but I would generally say that if you wan tot know what tone you buildings should be just make a render of 80% gray cube and see what rig would give you - that is your color cast. But as the images show there is a room fro maneuver. Although if I may say so myself come of the original building are much better then others...

That was primarily about the hue... But the brightness component of tone is even more important. Notice how all those have their figures in 200 range. You simply HAVE to be there for you model to look white or even whitish like say Smiths building - it's not really white. The pinnacle of whiteness would be The Hogan. Now let's take a look at what you have with either variants:

and here what they, I believe, should be:

Overall I would say that your warmer version is more in line with game overall. But it is also well know fact that in order to highlight "witness" it is customary to add some blue to it, or to make it cool...

[T Wrecks 10,210]

This IS warmer indeed... but now the building looks like a bit like bare concrete at sunset.   

I was actually aiming at something like this. Almost white, but not too glaring.

You know, I'm really wondering about monitor calibration now. I calibrated mine using the software calibration tool that came with Photoshop, I think. I don't use Photoshop any more, but the calibration has remained the same. It's of course ridiculous from a professional point of view - an average monitor plus some software tool - but it's better than nothing. I have noticed that you have been using some very strong coliur hues and that your buildings tend to be rather dark in general - which makes me wonder whether your monitor settings might simply be off, at least when it comes to BATting purposes.

Does anybody of you happen to know a good software monitor calibration tool? I think this might go a long way in making sure we talk about the same. 

EDIT

Whoops, Iooks like I've been cross-posting with SimFox. Oh well, having read his post, I agree with it 100%.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

WHY CAN'T I GET ANYTHING RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I don't really get it...some are like "too white" some are "not white enough" some are "too cool" and "too warm" and....GAH! I mean, how am I supposed to please everyone? Personally, I liked the darker blue version I posted before the warm version, I like my "dark style"...but of course...I'm wrong.....rant rant

That's not directed at you two...sorry if it seems that way...

Anyway...I edited it once again-

(LQ render)

But I really like this better-

(LQ render)

Hardly a difference except this one is slightly darker...Oh and the roof textures dissappeared for some reason so don't mind that.

So can I keep this one as is now? PWETTY PWEASE WITH CHERRY ON TOP?

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

Come now. They say a mistake is a Buddhist gift. You learn from your mistakes. How would anyone know what is correct if they did not first know what was wrong?

I think the first one is much better. I think you are being deceived by the black background of your render. The game is not so dark, so the lighter one will naturally look more at home. The only problem I have with it is that it is very low saturation (1% in my samples) which may, again, alienate it. you will want to add a subtle splash of color similar to Simfox's examples (ignoring the hogan).

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Thank you for you input Todd. Oh and would you know how to change the render's back ground color in GMax, or is it even possible?

Well after rendering this most of the day(I think it finished around 9 rendering since about 3:30 or about 4), I say I'm done, and Wall Street Plaza V2 will be uploaded tomorrow.

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Still look good to me.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Hahaha, I know how frustrating that can be. I remember when I was showing progress with a lot design how one person said "I'd get rid of the tree there", and when I posted the next screenshot - without tree - someone else would say "I think it looks too bare, you should place a tree there". Gnarf!

That's why I was asking for monitor calibration - this might explain the problem. If your monitor is badly adjusted, what you see might differ considerably from what we see.

Try this little image here - do you see both "1"s? On the black and on the white side?

Or here - do you see coloured areas, or is everything neutral grey?

I've found a software calibration tool you might try. It's not a perfect solution, but it can't really do much harm, because if you don't like the result, you can always go back to the values previously adjusted: http://www.hex2bit.com/products/product_mcw.asp

[Hanson784 165]

That's much better. Well done. Wasn't it was worth the extra effort?

Looking forward to plopping it on my map.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

TWrecks- Wow, I think you are right 100% about my monitor.

In the first link, I only saw the 1 on the dark side....

And on the other one, all I saw was neutral grey....

I'll have to try that link later about it's calibration. Or do you think it's simply the brightness of my screen?

Hanson784- Yes it's actually worth the extra effort. Thank you!

So, I played around in Reader for once, and did something I thought would be harder...check it out-

I now know how to set custom queries!!!!!  But I'm still at a loss when it comes to ploppables. I prefer the Extra Cheats Plugin anyway, very useful, and I don't understand why some people won't use it and rather ask for their landmarks menu to be filled beyond filled. So the only dependecy for Wall Street Plaza V2 will be the NYBT Essentials.

Expect this to be uploaded some time today, or tonight...depends if I can pry myself from my PS3 longer...Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is very addicting.... 

[GuerrilaWarfare 39]

can you show me how to use custom queries, i want to know how from the very beginning before my first upload